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Rasman
2009-12-21, 09:10 PM
Well, I've come to realize that, playing a melee class makes it hard on you when all your abilities revolve around your enemies' Fort Saves. Everything our DM seems to send at us has GREAT Fort saves, crap like Frost Giants and the like. Are there ways around this for a melee, non-caster, class?

All I've found so far are Ki Straps that increase the DC on my Stunning Fist, and SF like abilities, by 2. But that's really it, at this point.

Also, what kind/types of creatures tend to have bad Fort saves, things that I should be looking to try and use my SF abilities on?

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-21, 09:13 PM
Stunning Fist

I'm going to be ninja'd for taking the time to mention monk is bad.


Oh no everything has fort saves

Welcome to the world of "Melee characters do not get nice things."

Generally speaking, the less front-line the enemy, the less their fort save. Attack wizards and things like that. Generally, if it didn't like your fist, it REALLY won't like your stunning fist.

subject42
2009-12-21, 09:15 PM
Get the wounding enchantment on 50 shuriken and then massacre their Constitution score. It should make beating their saves easier.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-21, 09:15 PM
This is why you get into the enemy's back row, where all the casters and archers are. If your DM is just sending big piles of meat and Fort saves at you, then complain to him.

jmbrown
2009-12-21, 09:19 PM
Even casters have decent fort saves through bonuses or spells. I don't know what it is but Fort seems to be the easiest save to increase above all others. A lot of abilities that use fort to save such as poison, paralyzation, stun, and negative energy can be negated through magic items altogether. There are more fort saves requiring those conditions than there are reflex and will.

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-21, 09:27 PM
That's because constitution is important for HP too. An optimized caster's secondary score is always con, so they're probably going to have decent fort saves even though their class progression is bad.

Combining your stunning fist with some source of con damage is a good idea though. Get a wounding weapon, mess them up with it, and then use your stun. You're still playing a Monk and therefore at a disadvantage, but it's better than nothing.

Rasman
2009-12-21, 09:27 PM
I'm going to be ninja'd for taking the time to mention monk is bad.

Welcome to the world of "Melee characters do not get nice things."

Generally speaking, the less front-line the enemy, the less their fort save. Attack wizards and things like that. Generally, if it didn't like your fist, it REALLY won't like your stunning fist.

there is NOT someone walking up behind you with piano wire right now, honest :smallannoyed::smallbiggrin::smallconfused:

our game is Pathfinder, so it's not as bad at the 3.5 monk, not AMAZING, but Imp Natural Attack makes for good damage rolls now

What about Goblins and Hobgoblins in general? Break their neck or Stun and whail?


Get the wounding enchantment on 50 shuriken and then massacre their Constitution score. It should make beating their saves easier.

dur...wound...I knew that...it's not too expensive either, so I might have to just because it's wrong...my wizard just got Blood Star, which does con damage as well, which helps...he also laugh's manically about it all the time...our DM kinda went pale over it


This is why you get into the enemy's back row, where all the casters and archers are. If your DM is just sending big piles of meat and Fort saves at you, then complain to him.

in his defense, we were fighting frost giants and I did kinda get laughed at for trying to stun one...didn't realize they had retardedly good fort saves at the time...but I figure we'll see some stuff that's less...meaty, eventually


That's because constitution is important for HP too. An optimized caster's secondary score is always con, so they're probably going to have decent fort saves even though their class progression is bad.

Combining your stunning fist with some source of con damage is a good idea though. Get a wounding weapon, mess them up with it, and then use your stun. You're still playing a Monk and therefore at a disadvantage, but it's better than nothing.

I don't really think it's as bad as people say, playing a monk that is. It's just a hard class to play in an optimized game because they're more limited than other classes, which I don't mind because for my first session, it really simplifies things for me.

The only time I really feel at a disadvantage is when our fighter isn't there, because that leaves me as the only real melee fighter, our 3 rogues are all cowards and only stab things when something else had it's attention.

jmbrown
2009-12-21, 09:39 PM
our game is Pathfinder, so it's not as bad at the 3.5 monk, not AMAZING, but Imp Natural Attack makes for good damage rolls now

I guess I shouldn't tell you they officially errata'ed that out a few months ago :smallsigh:

Eldariel
2009-12-21, 09:44 PM
Generally, the solution to high Fort types is simple dealing fcktons of damage. That tends to be their strongest defense, but they tend to have relatively poor AC meaning you can Power Attack efficiently, and unlike Fort, HP will come down quickly enough. Of course, the REAL solution to those types is to have your caster mindrape them.

The only way a melee type can hit Will-save is ToB, or few Fear-effects. Imperious Command [Drow of the Underdark]-feat enabled Intimidate, while not strictly a Will-targeting attack, is close enough and works fine vs. some low Wis brutes. It's by far the best option available.

Rasman
2009-12-21, 09:54 PM
I guess I shouldn't tell you they officially errata'ed that out a few months ago :smallsigh:

what? did you say potato?

I assumed that because in PHII they mentioned that the monk could/should take Imp Natural Attack that I still could...they really just don't like me having nice things...


Generally, the solution to high Fort types is simple dealing fcktons of damage. That tends to be their strongest defense, but they tend to have relatively poor AC meaning you can Power Attack efficiently, and unlike Fort, HP will come down quickly enough. Of course, the REAL solution to those types is to have your caster mindrape them.

The only way a melee type can hit Will-save is ToB, or few Fear-effects. Imperious Command [Drow of the Underdark]-feat enabled Intimidate, while not strictly a Will-targeting attack, is close enough and works fine vs. some low Wis brutes. It's by far the best option available.

I WISH I could get Frightful Presense, that would make my day, now that I think about it. It's pretty feat intensive, if I remember correctly...don't have my Books with me so I can't go look for it. I'll take a loot at Imperius Command, but anything that affects my Cha is kinda going to blow because that's my worst stat.

AslanCross
2009-12-21, 10:01 PM
what? did you say potato?

I assumed that because in PHII they mentioned that the monk could/should take Imp Natural Attack that I still could...they really just don't like me having nice things...

I believe there was an official errata for Pathfinder that said Imp. Nat. Atk. doesn't work with the Monk's unarmed strike. :P

<insert obligatory "If you want a martial artist, get a swordsage" rant here, with the corollary "too bad if your group doesn't use ToB">

olentu
2009-12-21, 10:13 PM
I believe there was an official errata for Pathfinder that said Imp. Nat. Atk. doesn't work with the Monk's unarmed strike. :P

<insert obligatory "If you want a martial artist, get a swordsage" rant here, with the corollary "too bad if your group doesn't use ToB">

I recall this being the relevant post.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/archives/monksAndMonsterFeats&page=1#45

Rasman
2009-12-21, 10:15 PM
so...now that my Imp Nat Attack hopes and dreams have been crushed...any ideas for a new feat of almost as awesome...?

Ryuuk
2009-12-21, 10:40 PM
Well, if you took Improved Natural Attack at first, maybe you could replace it with Dreadful Wrath (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dreadful_Wrath)? The save may be weak, but you'll get the Frightful presence you've been wanting off with every charge or full attack.

Rasman
2009-12-21, 10:53 PM
Well, if you took Improved Natural Attack at first, maybe you could replace it with Dreadful Wrath (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dreadful_Wrath)? The save may be weak, but you'll get the Frightful presence you've been wanting off with every charge or full attack.

might have to get that one houseruled, tbh, but definitely close to what I'm looking for

Eldariel
2009-12-21, 10:56 PM
I WISH I could get Frightful Presense, that would make my day, now that I think about it. It's pretty feat intensive, if I remember correctly...don't have my Books with me so I can't go look for it. I'll take a loot at Imperius Command, but anything that affects my Cha is kinda going to blow because that's my worst stat.

Ah yeah, Monk, right. You're ****ed. Just try to deal a fckton of damage, or hire a caster.

Ashtar
2009-12-21, 10:57 PM
Or just ignore the "correction" and keep on playing as it is. It didn't cause your character to be unbalanced and you had fun with it. There's no LN mafia breaking down your door saying you have to... <knock> <knock>

Hun, I wonder who's at my door at this time of ni... Ahhhhhhh!

Asbestos
2009-12-21, 11:32 PM
Or just ignore the "correction" and keep on playing as it is. It didn't cause your character to be unbalanced and you had fun with it. There's no LN mafia breaking down your door saying you have to... <knock> <knock>

Hun, I wonder who's at my door at this time of ni... Ahhhhhhh!

Incredible, he still had time to type 'Ahhhhhh!'. This is like people that mention Candlejack but still have time to subm

jmbrown
2009-12-21, 11:36 PM
Incredible, he still had time to type 'Ahhhhhh!'. This is like people that mention Candlejack but still have time to subm

The Rules Mafia and Candlejack are both polite enough to hit submit for y

Mewtarthio
2009-12-21, 11:39 PM
so...now that my Imp Nat Attack hopes and dreams have been crushed...any ideas for a new feat of almost as awesome...?

Ignore the errata and hope nobody else notices?

Bob
2009-12-21, 11:47 PM
Monks tend to have 3 situational ways of impeding enemies in combat: trip, grapple, and stunning... which would be great if it weren't for the fact that they are all resisted by the same guy.

also, ina should work for monks, their uas is treated as a natural weapon for all effects, class feature.

Ashiel
2009-12-22, 12:05 AM
Have you considered picking up Ability Focus? To my knowledge, Paizo hasn't errata'd the ability to take Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm). It's a general feat that is used to increase the DC of your special abilities, which can include Ex, Su, and Sp abilities, including Stunning fist. It's sort of your version of the Spell Focus feats (which is pretty fair since it's less broad than spell focus but gives +2 instead of +1).

That would at least help your stunning fist be harder to resist, especially with your +2 magic item.

Food for thought. :smallsmile:

jmbrown
2009-12-22, 12:08 AM
Monks tend to have 3 situational ways of impeding enemies in combat: trip, grapple, and stunning... which would be great if it weren't for the fact that they are all resisted by the same guy.

also, ina should work for monks, their uas is treated as a natural weapon for all effects, class feature.

But it's not considered an actual natural weapon or else monks could make multiple attacks like other creatures with multiple appendages can. The prerequisite for INA is "Natural weapon." A monk has unarmed strike (which is specifically considered a weapon) with the additional ability that magic fang or other effects that target natural weapons can also target it. He doesn't have an actual natural weapon.

Just another hotly contested debate between RAW and RAI.

sofawall
2009-12-22, 12:23 AM
But it's not considered an actual natural weapon or else monks could make multiple attacks like other creatures with multiple appendages can. The prerequisite for INA is "Natural weapon." A monk has unarmed strike (which is specifically considered a weapon) with the additional ability that magic fang or other effects that target natural weapons can also target it. He doesn't have an actual natural weapon.

Just another hotly contested debate between RAW and RAI.

I'm pretty sure it's a debate between RAW and RAW, myself.

kentma57
2009-12-22, 01:03 AM
I'm going to be ninja'd for taking the time to mention monk is bad.

Not true by my experience. (at high levels)


Welcome to the world of "Melee characters do not get nice things."

Probably more true than your last statement. (in general it is true but there are some exceptions)

Seatbelt
2009-12-22, 01:21 AM
Not true by my experience. (at high levels)



Probably more true than your last statement. (in general it is true but there are some exceptions)

In my experience blaster mages are awesome and fighters are pretty good classes. But then the builds I make with the help of the playground rock everyone's world so hard the DM gets frustrated so I tone it down. In the actual world a lot of the optimization around here is very strong. But that doesn't mean that the monk class sucks. Just because poor americans can afford a TV and a fridge doesn't make them not poor.

Rasman
2009-12-22, 02:30 AM
Have you considered picking up Ability Focus? To my knowledge, Paizo hasn't errata'd the ability to take Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm). It's a general feat that is used to increase the DC of your special abilities, which can include Ex, Su, and Sp abilities, including Stunning fist. It's sort of your version of the Spell Focus feats (which is pretty fair since it's less broad than spell focus but gives +2 instead of +1).

That would at least help your stunning fist be harder to resist, especially with your +2 magic item.

Food for thought. :smallsmile:

that...is actually pretty tasty food for thought...is there a chain for that?

Thurbane
2009-12-22, 02:38 AM
You could also try debuffing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6986035) the opponents saves, as well/instead of boosting your DC.

Ponce
2009-12-22, 02:39 AM
Ability Focus is a big yes.

There are also some feats that can enhance your stunning fist. Two in particular are in Sandstorm, I believe. One applies the stun effect to all adjacent enemies, as well as your target. Another adds a round of being Dazed to the effect, basically doubling the usefulness of Stunning Fist.

olentu
2009-12-22, 02:49 AM
Ability Focus is a big yes.

There are also some feats that can enhance your stunning fist. Two in particular are in Sandstorm, I believe. One applies the stun effect to all adjacent enemies, as well as your target. Another adds a round of being Dazed to the effect, basically doubling the usefulness of Stunning Fist.

I recall pharaoh’s fist applying the stun effect to all creatures adjacent to the target rather then all enemies so one might want to get reach. I can not however remember the other feat so can not say what if anything it does.

Ashiel
2009-12-22, 03:33 AM
that...is actually pretty tasty food for thought...is there a chain for that?

Nah. It's just a general feat you can take. It's balanced because it has to be taken for each ability you want to apply it to (whereas spell-focus applies to all spells of a particular school).

Some good things to consider using the feat for:

Monk's Stunning Fist
Assassin's Death Attack
Some feats (like the martial art feat Choke Hold feat from OA)
Racial poison attacks (like Pseudo Dragons).
Binder vestige powers (per power, per vestige, sorry).
Virtually any "Ex", "Su", or "Sp" that uses a saving throw.


It's good if you want to put a little more emphasis into a particular special ability. I've heard good things about binders using it to help get some of their save DCs a bit higher for their vestige powers. This is especially nice with that one vestige that grants phantasmal killer every 5 rounds as a spell-like ability.

Edit: Though I prefer using the binder than gets summon monster X every 5 rounds to summon pseudonatural (not the ELH pseudonatural) versions of summon monsters. But that doesn't gain any benefits from Ability Focus. :smalltongue:

Food for thought. :smallamused:

Rasman
2009-12-22, 03:38 AM
Ability Focus is a big yes.

There are also some feats that can enhance your stunning fist. Two in particular are in Sandstorm, I believe. One applies the stun effect to all adjacent enemies, as well as your target. Another adds a round of being Dazed to the effect, basically doubling the usefulness of Stunning Fist.

I've actually already got Pharaoh's Fist as a feat XD

I don't think the other comes from SS, I think you're thinking of a pathfinder Monk feat called Scorpion Style.


You could also try debuffing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6986035) the opponents saves, as well/instead of boosting your DC.

where does the intimidating strike come from?


Nah. It's just a general feat you can take. It's balanced because it has to be taken for each ability you want to apply it to (whereas spell-focus applies to all spells of a particular school).

Some good things to consider using the feat for:

Monk's Stunning Fist
Assassin's Death Attack
Some feats (like the martial art feat Choke Hold feat from OA)
Racial poison attacks (like Pseudo Dragons).
Binder vestige powers (per power, per vestige, sorry).
Virtually any "Ex", "Su", or "Sp" that uses a saving throw.


It's good if you want to put a little more emphasis into a particular special ability. I've heard good things about binders using it to help get some of their save DCs a bit higher for their vestige powers. This is especially nice with that one vestige that grants phantasmal killer every 5 rounds as a spell-like ability.

Edit: Though I prefer using the binder than gets summon monster X every 5 rounds to summon pseudonatural (not the ELH pseudonatural) versions of summon monsters. But that doesn't gain any benefits from Ability Focus. :smalltongue:

Food for thought. :smallamused:

what a shame, sucks it doesn't stack either, but if my Wizard starts debuffing for me, it'll be even better later on

I'm really just trying to find that second niche my monk can fill, right now he's a PWN grappler with feats like Scorpion's Grasp, Imp Grapple and Greater Grapple, once i qualify, I'll take Stone Dragon martial feats to get Weight of the Mountain, but that HAS to wait until later levels, looks like with Ki Straps and Ability Focus I can get my Fort Save DC to 20 at level 7 at least, that's respectable I think...actually, probably not...stupid Fort saves...

Ashiel
2009-12-22, 04:45 AM
I'm really just trying to find that second niche my monk can fill, right now he's a PWN grappler with feats like Scorpion's Grasp, Imp Grapple and Greater Grapple, once i qualify, I'll take Stone Dragon martial feats to get Weight of the Mountain, but that HAS to wait until later levels, looks like with Ki Straps and Ability Focus I can get my Fort Save DC to 20 at level 7 at least, that's respectable I think...actually, probably not...stupid Fort saves...

Don't forget that the Intimidate skill can inflict the shaken condition, inflicting a -2 to most all d20 rolls. Also, anything that can inflict fear can do this. An aura of despair (such as from a Blackguard or Paladin of Tyranny) reduces saves by an additional -2 against anyone within 10ft of you (that's stunning fist range for sure).

Life Drinker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) weapons are wonderful in the hands of Warforged (due to their immunity to level drain), but also work wonders if you have a caster in the party who can cast death ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/DeathWard.htm) on you before you use one. Make a gauntlet of life drinking for use with unarmed strike to inflict negative levels which each attack (2 negative levels per attack inflicts: -10hp, -2 attack, -2 skills, -2 ability checks, -2 saving throws, -2 levels worth of spells, etc).

If you're a grappling buff, you should definitely check out Choke Hold and several other feats from the Oriental Adventures handbook. They're well balanced, and this one in particular allows you to force a pinned opponent to make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + wisdom modifier) or pass out as you crush them in your grip. You can also take the Ability Focus feat for use with this ability.

Additionally, as a monk you gain immunity to poison. When you do, start applying poison to your body. Rubbing sleep (drow) poison on your knuckles can force DC 13 save or loose fortitude saves against opponents. It means there's a 5% chance a worst that you'll knock your opponent out for 1 hour. This is a nice trick to use as a monk.

Another tactic, if you can get a ton of poison for little money(maybe from a spellcaster casting minor creation) would be to bath in black lotus oil and then grapple opponents. Black lotus is a horrible contact poison that deals sickening amounts of constitution damage. This is pretty mean though, and can cause newbie DMs to begin calling foul on monks for being so broken so use with caution.

A few more things to consider, of course. :smallsmile:

Thurbane
2009-12-22, 06:11 AM
where does the intimidating strike come from?
It's a feat in PHB II.

Roderick_BR
2009-12-22, 06:53 AM
in his defense, we were fighting frost giants and I did kinda get laughed at for trying to stun one...didn't realize they had retardedly good fort saves at the time...but I figure we'll see some stuff that's less...meaty, eventually

Here's a tip. Things that look big and though, usually ARE though. Just think. You want to hit a frost giant in the head so hard he'll see stars? Just... won't work.
Meelers mostly deals with phisical effects, and con-based stunning is just hard to pull off into the big meatshields. It's better used against squishies, that you need out of action as soon as possible.

Against the strong guys, just try to deal as much damage as possible, get good protection effects from your casters, and try not to die. That's it.

If you want to go tactical, you'll need feats and effects that can attack an enemy's weakness (that will usually NOT be Fort), that usually will be speed or reach, depending on the enemy.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-22, 10:36 AM
Not true by my experience. (at high levels


Your experience is different from the statistics of the CO boards. Your group may not have been optimized, or the DM may have been nice (or you listened to Dman's Monk handbook, and weren't playing a character with more than 6 levels in Monk).

Rasman
2009-12-22, 12:29 PM
Don't forget that the Intimidate skill can inflict the shaken condition, inflicting a -2 to most all d20 rolls. Also, anything that can inflict fear can do this. An aura of despair (such as from a Blackguard or Paladin of Tyranny) reduces saves by an additional -2 against anyone within 10ft of you (that's stunning fist range for sure).

Life Drinker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) weapons are wonderful in the hands of Warforged (due to their immunity to level drain), but also work wonders if you have a caster in the party who can cast death ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/DeathWard.htm) on you before you use one. Make a gauntlet of life drinking for use with unarmed strike to inflict negative levels which each attack (2 negative levels per attack inflicts: -10hp, -2 attack, -2 skills, -2 ability checks, -2 saving throws, -2 levels worth of spells, etc).

If you're a grappling buff, you should definitely check out Choke Hold and several other feats from the Oriental Adventures handbook. They're well balanced, and this one in particular allows you to force a pinned opponent to make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + wisdom modifier) or pass out as you crush them in your grip. You can also take the Ability Focus feat for use with this ability.

Additionally, as a monk you gain immunity to poison. When you do, start applying poison to your body. Rubbing sleep (drow) poison on your knuckles can force DC 13 save or loose fortitude saves against opponents. It means there's a 5% chance a worst that you'll knock your opponent out for 1 hour. This is a nice trick to use as a monk.

Another tactic, if you can get a ton of poison for little money(maybe from a spellcaster casting minor creation) would be to bath in black lotus oil and then grapple opponents. Black lotus is a horrible contact poison that deals sickening amounts of constitution damage. This is pretty mean though, and can cause newbie DMs to begin calling foul on monks for being so broken so use with caution.

A few more things to consider, of course. :smallsmile:

The Immune to Poison and Disease thing is pretty nice, I don't get poisons until level 11 though, I'm level 7 now, so that idea will have to wait for a while.

Life Drinker seems a bit...risky...and our DM has a motto, "I'm willing to let you do anything, but be prepared for the consequences" so...I'm wary of that.

I've seen the whole Choke Hold thing before, it's actually in Quientessential Monk II as an alternate use for Grapple, as well as Strangulation, which is actually slightly better, but they're not considered pinned, which is technically not as good, but makes it more usable on larger targets.

Anyone know of a list of poisons that I can look at? might as well get ready for that idea ahead of time

KurtKatze
2009-12-22, 12:42 PM
Your wizard should take greater mighty wallop, so he can improve your unarmed dmg a lot. Bloodstar also allows for a fort save so...

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-22, 01:07 PM
As Thurbane said, the key is IMO debuffing. Ask support from your party, with spells effects lowering enemy saves.

Ponce
2009-12-22, 01:25 PM
I've actually already got Pharaoh's Fist as a feat XD

I don't think the other comes from SS, I think you're thinking of a pathfinder Monk feat called Scorpion Style.

No, it is definitely a feat. I found it, its Pain Touch in Complete Warrior. I was also mistaken, it makes the opponents Nauseated, not Dazed, but whatever. It still effectively doubles the duration of stunning fist, and combined with Pharaoh's Fist, makes the whole stun thing much more effective, The main exceptions still being things like undead, though.

Rasman
2009-12-22, 02:18 PM
No, it is definitely a feat. I found it, its Pain Touch in Complete Warrior. I was also mistaken, it makes the opponents Nauseated, not Dazed, but whatever. It still effectively doubles the duration of stunning fist, and combined with Pharaoh's Fist, makes the whole stun thing much more effective, The main exceptions still being things like undead, though.

AH, it did sound familiar, and Scorpion Style only limits their movement speed until you get to the upper tier of its abilities. I'm not totally worried about Undead though, it's not really a focus of our campaign and we don't have a cleric or pally, so our DM is looking to more "that's just an evil ability" type of thing.

Pain Touch does sound interesting though, UNLESS I decide to take leadership and find myself a straight up buff/debuff cohort, that might be the direction I look in to. Although Ability Focus might be too good to pass up.


Your wizard should take greater mighty wallop, so he can improve your unarmed dmg a lot. Bloodstar also allows for a fort save so...

yeah...noticed the irony of that after I said it...too lazy to edit though...Greater Mighty Wallop sound...awesome...


As Thurbane said, the key is IMO debuffing. Ask support from your party, with spells effects lowering enemy saves.

All I'm really going to get from that is something from the Wizard, the rest of the party consists of a Ranger, 3 rogues (yeah...3 of them...) and the fighter.

Thrawn183
2009-12-22, 02:37 PM
I would be careful using ye 'ole mighty wallop in a real game. It has a great potential to be too good. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever use it, but you should make sure you're not going a bit too far first.

subject42
2009-12-22, 02:37 PM
All I'm really going to get from that is something from the Wizard, the rest of the party consists of a Ranger, 3 rogues (yeah...3 of them...) and the fighter.

If you have access to complete scoundrel, there are some feats and skill tricks that rogues can use to debuff the enemy by spending sneak attack die.

Aldizog
2009-12-22, 03:04 PM
with Ki Straps and Ability Focus I can get my Fort Save DC to 20 at level 7 at least, that's respectable I think...actually, probably not...stupid Fort saves...
Let's say your party is fighting a single CR7 foe, such as a hill giant, dire bear, or the MM's ogre barbarian. You have a 35% chance to entirely neutralize him such that the party rogues can kill him on their turns. That's "respectable" I'd say. Umber hulk? 55% chance. Bulette or young red dragon? 40% chance. (Before the dragon lovers swarm me, I'm not saying a dragon would be in Stunning Fist range of a monk, just looking at the Fort save numbers.)

Let's say you instead have multiple lesser foes. You have a 40% chance against trolls (CR 5), 50% against ettins, and 60% against shadow mastiffs (CR 5), girallons (CR 6), or wyverns (CR 6).

Now, against a single tough high-CR melee brute foe, you're unlikely to pull off the stunning. But doing so would mean killing the foe in one round. Even a 15% chance (as against a CR 11 cloud giant) is not bad.

Rasman
2009-12-22, 04:17 PM
I would be careful using ye 'ole mighty wallop in a real game. It has a great potential to be too good. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever use it, but you should make sure you're not going a bit too far first.

I'll mostly use it on REALLY big things, although the idea of a Monk walking up to a steel door and crushing it in one blow amuses me greatly.


Let's say your party is fighting a single CR7 foe, such as a hill giant, dire bear, or the MM's ogre barbarian. You have a 35% chance to entirely neutralize him such that the party rogues can kill him on their turns. That's "respectable" I'd say. Umber hulk? 55% chance. Bulette or young red dragon? 40% chance. (Before the dragon lovers swarm me, I'm not saying a dragon would be in Stunning Fist range of a monk, just looking at the Fort save numbers.)

Let's say you instead have multiple lesser foes. You have a 40% chance against trolls (CR 5), 50% against ettins, and 60% against shadow mastiffs (CR 5), girallons (CR 6), or wyverns (CR 6).

Now, against a single tough high-CR melee brute foe, you're unlikely to pull off the stunning. But doing so would mean killing the foe in one round. Even a 15% chance (as against a CR 11 cloud giant) is not bad.

well, the last fight we had was Frost Giants, 5 CR13 Frost Giants...we had help...but...Frost Giants, I just want things to get smaller soon, and it will, because we'll be fighting, basically, an army of Goblins and Hobgoblins, their fort saves can't be that great...can they?

Knaight
2009-12-22, 04:22 PM
Sure, but your abilities are somewhat limited. One tough enemy with a minimal fort save is better for you. Case in point being the Umber Hulk. The Rakasha is a really good example.

Ponce
2009-12-22, 05:43 PM
I'll mostly use it on REALLY big things, although the idea of a Monk walking up to a steel door and crushing it in one blow amuses me greatly.

The thing about greater mighty wallop is that it has a 1 hour/level duration...

ericgrau
2009-12-22, 06:09 PM
You do also realize that you can full attack at the same time as a stunning fist, don't you? And frost giants have lousy AC. So even if you fail you still do a little damage. Or down a potion of enlarge person and grapple the thing. Even with its higher strength, do a flurry of grapple attempts and one is bound to land. If it breaks free then its standard action is burnt and next turn you can try to grapple it again before it ever gets to do anything. If OTOH the grapple continues you can match it in damage output b/c it no longer gets its axe and you're a monk. Any extra damage your party gets from denying its dex is gravy. Remember grappling favors the group with larger numbers. If your DM won't send multiple weaker opponents at you who will fail their saves, turn it to your advantage.

More to the point, monks do best against humanoids. Even a fast fort save progression from class levels isn't any faster than your stunning fist DC progression. Against big monsters their fort saves and their size modifiers vs. other abilities hamper you, but you can still do some damage. If you have to fight big monsters half the time, then fine. But if you never fight any humanoids, you may be playing the wrong class.

Rasman
2009-12-22, 06:30 PM
You do also realize that you can full attack at the same time as a stunning fist, don't you? And frost giants have lousy AC. So even if you fail you still do a little damage. Or down a potion of enlarge person and grapple the thing. Even with its higher strength, do a flurry of grapple attempts and one is bound to land. If it breaks free then its standard action is burnt and next turn you can try to grapple it again before it ever gets to do anything. If OTOH the grapple continues you can match it in damage output b/c it no longer gets its axe and you're a monk. Any extra damage your party gets from denying its dex is gravy. Remember grappling favors the group with larger numbers. If your DM won't send multiple weaker opponents at you who will fail their saves, turn it to your advantage.

More to the point, monks do best against humanoids. Even a fast fort save progression from class levels isn't any faster than your stunning fist DC progression. Against big monsters their fort saves and their size modifiers vs. other abilities hamper you, but you can still do some damage. If you have to fight big monsters half the time, then fine. But if you never fight any humanoids, you may be playing the wrong class.

yeah, I'm the armorless tank pretty much, with Pathfinder, I can grapple anything a size larger than me, so that wasn't a big deal, I just held down the biggest threat our whole last encounter until most of the others were dead really, it was kinda epic

but like I said, I'm looking for that "other" niche, because grappling is pretty damn awesome...I heard something about an epic build that pretty much lets you throw people into the sun...any links to that?