half elf w/ dual halberds

[retaliation08]

ok so I am planning on playing a half elf fighter/crusader that is going to dip in outcast champion (races of destiny) for flavor reasons and ultimately end up in eternal blade(tome of battle). my plan is fighter 4/crusader 1 and probably going into outcast champ at level 6 id like to preface the build by stating that this build is meant to be optimized, but to get work down in a unique and rp friendly way. now to it:

attributes: 18, 16, 10, 8, 8, 14

feats:
1. two weapon fighting
1. weapon focus halberd
2.combat reflexe
3. oversized two weapon fighting (complete adventurer)
4. spinning halberd (complete warrior)

@ lvl 6- weapon specialization

Basically this is a two weapon fighter who dual wields small sized halberds. ultimately with a full attack he can strike with each halberd and with the spinning halberd feat, strike with the shaft of each halberd as well. Essentially the attack would involve a twisting motion of his body and a spin of each of the halberds that results a total of 4 attacks.

My choice for the feats is to demonstrate my characters unique fighting style due to his blade guide that supposedly begins entering his dreams at a young age. The blade guide is always elven, and because of the disgruntled feelings towards elves that he has being a half elf, the fighting style is an attempt to rebel against the elven heritage that his blade guide represents. Ultimately, he combines the two fighting styles when he enters eternal blade at level 11.

I cannot be 100% sure that this build works out according to the rules, but thats what you guys are for :)
Any thoughts on different or future feats, or even diff prcs are very welcome. I am unhappy with how many feats this build requires, but i think it works ok for what it is.

Discuss!

[AslanCross]

1. I don't think you can wield Small halberds that way. If I'm not mistaken, it will still be a two-handed weapon for you, just that you have a penalty for it being the wrong size. This is the flip side of the reason why Monkey Grip doesn't let you use a regular greatsword with one hand.

2. You're racking up enormous penalties to your butt end attacks such that they'd be negligible (and so is their damage). Even with OTWF and Spinning Halberd, your penalty to your butt end attacks is -7. One of the major draws of using a halberd is that hey, it's a two-handed weapon. That means you get a lot of bonuses for it.

Why are you only taking one level of Crusader? You don't get anything good that way. I know this is primarily a flavor build, but I you don't need to shoot yourself in the foot to do this. I'd go instead with Fighter/Warblade since they synergize well.

[retaliation08]

the -7 only ends up being a -5 with weapon focus and +1 halberd, which is similar to the -5 progression for iterative attacks. though there are penalties, they seem to be no greater than any other penalty for an additional attack.

the level in crusader is for steely resolve which I find useful, not to mention you get 5 readied maneuvers for only 1 level, while a warblade would only get 3. I also plan on redipping in crusader for the save reroll 1/day and cha bonus to will saves.

thanks for the feedback, further comments appreciated... more specifically regarding the ability to dual wield small halberds... maybe a text reference

[Myrmex]

Having -5 to all your attacks, and getting no extra damage, is a poor decision, mechanically.

[AslanCross]

Hmm. After further reading the rule, you can wield the halberds that way, but you get a further -2 penalty for being the wrong size. You'd still get -7 penalties on the butt end strikes. See PHB p. 113, Weapon Size. (Furthermore, you'd only be dealing 1d8 with the halberd heads and 1d4 with the halberd butts---pretty sure that Spinning Halberd was designed with Medium creatures in mind.)

Steely Resolve is useful, yes, but eventually you will take more damage than it can hold. When monsters are swatting you for 25 damage per hit, a Steely Resolve pool of 5 damage becomes pretty negligible.

While the Crusader does have more maneuvers readied, it has the slowest maneuver learning progression and its method of granting maneuvers is pretty random. Warblade can refresh far more easily. If you're going to go ahead with Crusader, I'd suggest more levels in it so that you can get to Steely Resolve 10 at least.

You'd get a unique character, yes, but I'm warning you that you might find him frustratingly difficult to use effectively.

[Keld Denar]

Invest 1 feat in Leadership, and get a Bard cohort with Optimized Inspire Courage to follow you around so you don't look like you studied at the Monastary of the Whiffling Fists. Nothing is more embarasing than makeing 8 attacks in a round and missing with ALL of them, and not becuase you rolled like trash.

[retaliation08]

"When you make a full attack with your halberd, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class as well as an additional attack with the weapon at a -5 penalty. This attack deals points of bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 your Strength modifier"


the following is my math on the full attack action with the build above.


+9 to hit (bab5+4str-2ostwf+1wf+1(magic)

so it goes +9/+9/+4/+4

and the damage respectively would be:

d8+5/d8+3(offhand)/d4+3/d4+2(offhand butt)

so I would be doing an extra 2d4+5 if i hit, and the -5 only pertains to the butt attacks if I understand the text correctly. after weapon specialization it becomes a potential 2d4+9 total.

This doesnt seem too weak to me (most 5th level characters only get 1 or 2 attacks on a full attack whereas i would get 4), unless my math is incorrect.

more thoughts?

[retaliation08]

Hmm. After further reading the rule, you can wield the halberds that way, but you get a further -2 penalty for being the wrong size. You'd still get -7 penalties on the butt end strikes. See PHB p. 113, Weapon Size. (Furthermore, you'd only be dealing 1d8 with the halberd heads and 1d4 with the halberd butts---pretty sure that Spinning Halberd was designed with Medium creatures in mind.)

Steely Resolve is useful, yes, but eventually you will take more damage than it can hold. When monsters are swatting you for 25 damage per hit, a Steely Resolve pool of 5 damage becomes pretty negligible.

While the Crusader does have more maneuvers readied, it has the slowest maneuver learning progression and its method of granting maneuvers is pretty random. Warblade can refresh far more easily. If you're going to go ahead with Crusader, I'd suggest more levels in it so that you can get to Steely Resolve 10 at least.

You'd get a unique character, yes, but I'm warning you that you might find him frustratingly difficult to use effectively.

i realize that steely resolve 5 will be negligible except in the respect that i gain bonus to attack (much needed) and damage. its only a +1 but every bit counts.

[Keld Denar]

Compare just using 1 regular sized halberd with Power Attack.

Your AB would be +13. If you PA for 4, which is the difference between what you'd have, your damage would be

1d10 + 6 (Str) +8 (PA) +1 (Magic)

average 20.5 per round.

Compared to your ~27 per round, assuming the 2 spins hit or the ~17 damage if your spins miss.

Plus, at that level, using it 2handed, you can still move without losing damage, while the duel halberd guy HAS to stand still to full attack.

Then there is the fact that ALL of the Crusader maneuvers you'd get are ALL strikes. Thus, you couldn't combine your full attack routine which utilizes all of your feats and abilities and whatnot, and your strikes which are awesome in their own right.

Just some stuff to think about.

[retaliation08]

Compare just using 1 regular sized halberd with Power Attack.

Your AB would be +13. If you PA for 4, which is the difference between what you'd have, your damage would be

1d10 + 6 (Str) +8 (PA) +1 (Magic)

average 20.5 per round.

Compared to your ~27 per round, assuming the 2 spins hit or the ~17 damage if your spins miss.

Plus, at that level, using it 2handed, you can still move without losing damage, while the duel halberd guy HAS to stand still to full attack.

Then there is the fact that ALL of the Crusader maneuvers you'd get are ALL strikes. Thus, you couldn't combine your full attack routine which utilizes all of your feats and abilities and whatnot, and your strikes which are awesome in their own right.

Just some stuff to think about.

noted and apreciated, in that case would spinning halberd even be worth it? assuming i kept same class breakdown i could free up 4 feats by twohanding a halberd without spinning halberd... thats alot of feats

also, could i take weapon focus(small halberd)? or would it work more like an exotic weapon?

[Keld Denar]

Probably not worth it. Having a bunch of extra attacks is only worthwhile if you have some sort of bonus damage to tack on. Things like Sneak Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Melee Weapon Mastery, Dragonfire Inspiration, Holy Warrior, Skirmish, Shadow Blade, or any number of other bonuses. The extra attack is a vehicle to apply this bonus damage, as the attack itself is weak on its own.

And yea, you just take WF: Halberd, and it applies to ALL sizes of halberd you might be interested in wielding. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, realistically, but thats the most direct reading.

I mean, there is a reason why most people talk about 2hand fightery type builds. Lots of poeple have tried other options, and they just don't stack up.

BTW, your build was level 5, which is about the level that Haste starts to make a big appearance. The guy with the 2handed halberd is now attacking twice for ~41 damage per round, while your build is attacking 5 times for ~36.5 damage per round, again assuming that all spin attacks hit. It only gets worse from there when BAB +6 rolls around and 2handed guy gets another chance to do 20.5 damage, while your build is only getting the chance to hit for an extra 9.5 on his primary, or 17 if you take Greater TWF at 6.

It does start to lag behind, and isn't even far ahead if you consider the total lack of accuracy that the spinning attacks have at that level with those penalties.

[retaliation08]

well put. i think you sold me, although it hurts to see my most recent pet idea laid to waste in a matter of minutes lol.

[Keld Denar]

A fun idea I had that is kinda similar is to use a double weapon, but only use 1end of it. Treat it in every way as a 2handed weapon, except that the damage die is slightly smaller than a normal 2hander would be.

Fast forward 6 levels, and you take a level of Exotic Weapon Master at 7. The ability you pick up is Flurry of Strikes. It gives you an extra attack at your highest BAB, but all attacks that round suffer -2. I'm guessing it was ment to be used while "duel wielding" both sides of the double weapon, but its MUCH more effective when you do it 2handed.

If your character is a Dwarf, Orc, or Gnome, you get a racial double weapon proficiency for free, so you don't have to spend a whole feat on it.

As long as you are there, double weapons count as 1handed weapons as well, right? Pick up Uncanny Blow, also from Exotic Weapon Master. Now you are wielding a weapon that classifies as a 1handed exotic melee weapon in both hands. Hellooooooo 2x Str bonus. Stick that on your extra attack/round and split foes wide open.

Plus, hey, who uses a freakin Urgrosh anyway?

[Amphetryon]

A fun idea I had that is kinda similar is to use a double weapon, but only use 1end of it. Treat it in every way as a 2handed weapon, except that the damage die is slightly smaller than a normal 2hander would be.

Fast forward 6 levels, and you take a level of Exotic Weapon Master at 7. The ability you pick up is Flurry of Strikes. It gives you an extra attack at your highest BAB, but all attacks that round suffer -2. I'm guessing it was ment to be used while "duel wielding" both sides of the double weapon, but its MUCH more effective when you do it 2handed.

If your character is a Dwarf, Orc, or Gnome, you get a racial double weapon proficiency for free, so you don't have to spend a whole feat on it.
<snip>
Plus, hey, who uses a freakin Urgrosh anyway?
Last time I checked, Quarterstaff was a Simple weapon. :smallwink:

[AslanCross]

well put. i think you sold me, although it hurts to see my most recent pet idea laid to waste in a matter of minutes lol.

I'd think this is better than you having to deal with the consequences for an entire adventure, even. I know how it feels to have an interesting concept on paper come out as depressingly inefficient in practice.

I tried to make a TWF Serenity Paladin/Swordsage once. She fought with two silver tonfas (light maces) and focused on Desert Wind and Tiger Claw maneuvers. I did the numbers and they were excellent. In practice, she missed horribly on most of her attacks. She was really awesome in surviving (three delayed blast fireballs plus an exploding balor with no damage and had 52 AC), but unfortunately, she couldn't hit anything at all.

[Zom B]

Last time I checked, Quarterstaff was a Simple weapon. :smallwink:


Fast forward 6 levels, and you take a level of Exotic Weapon Master at 7.

As in, requires an exotic weapon.

[Ormagoden]

Isn't there a "Balance" weapon enchantment in one of the books that allows someone to wield a two handed weapon one handed? That seems to be in the back area of my mind for some reason. (do refute me if I'm wrong, I'd like to know.)

[Leon]

It may not be "effective" but the concept leads to a cool mental image


Last time I checked, Quarterstaff was a Simple weapon. :smallwink:

There is a reach version called a Longstaff in Complete Adventurer i think that's exotic

[Ryumaru]

It may not be "effective" but the concept leads to a cool mental image


http://dynastywarriors.neoseeker.com/w/i/dynastywarriors/thumb/4/49/Pang_De_dw5.png/400px-Pang_De_dw5.png

[erikun]

http://dynastywarriors.neoseeker.com/w/i/dynastywarriors/thumb/4/49/Pang_De_dw5.png/400px-Pang_De_dw5.png

http://dynastywarriors.neoseeker.com/w/i/dynastywarriors/1/19/Lu-Bu-DW6-Model1.png

[Coidzor]

http://dynastywarriors.neoseeker.com/w/i/dynastywarriors/thumb/4/49/Pang_De_dw5.png/400px-Pang_De_dw5.png

http://dynastywarriors.neoseeker.com/w/i/dynastywarriors/1/19/Lu-Bu-DW6-Model1.png


...

...

Someone made the Orcish Quadruple AXE! :eek:

[AslanCross]

It may not be "effective" but the concept leads to a cool mental image



It's cool, granted, but novelty only lasts for a while. By the time he starts actually playing with it and realizes that all his attacks aren't hitting and that there are very little ways to fix something fundamentally broken, the coolness wears off. That's exactly how I felt with my character.

I'm not really an optimizer, and there's a difference between a munchkin character and a character with a cool concept that can actually hit things.

I like TWF. It's not as 'effective' as an Ubercharger, but it gets things done. A -7 to hit on the end result attacks of the build (the point of Spinning Halberd is to get those extra attacks anyway) for attacks that deal 1d4+2 damage? That is not getting things done. That is investing feats to get something that is pretty immaterial in the long run.

Now a Spinning Halberd build that utilizes Improved Trip and martial maneuvers is both cool and effective. Not unique, granted, but it gets the job done.

[Foryn Gilnith]

there are very little ways to fix something fundamentally broken, the coolness wears off.

Rule 0 FTW!

Also, OP: Why are you taking Outcast Champion? There's nothing about the prestige class that actually makes you, in-universe, more of a champion. It just has a name and a few abilities. The mechanics won't even go a fourth of the way to realizing the concept. You can roleplay an outcast champion without needing the prestige class.

[FMArthur]

Slight Build negates the -2 penalty for wielding a weapon too small, but with their lower strength, even smaller weapons, difficulty increasing reach, and constitution penalty, being a Kobold is probably going to be undesirable for your build. Anyone know of any other race with Slight Build?

[Amphetryon]

Slight Build negates the -2 penalty for wielding a weapon too small, but with their lower strength, even smaller weapons, difficulty increasing reach, and constitution penalty, being a Kobold is probably going to be undesirable for your build. Anyone know of any other race with Slight Build?

Desert Kobold has no CON penalty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds).

[FMArthur]

Desert Kobold has no CON penalty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds).

Allow me to reiterate: everything about the kobold's racial traits makes it a poor choice as a melee combatant. Any one of these problems would make a human (even a half-elf!) preferable to them, and most kobolds have all of these problems. Fixing one doesn't change much.

[taltamir]

Make a duel wielder that wields something good, ask your DM to refluff so that you are actually wielding dual halbards that do damage / attack / etc as if they were that other thing.

[taltamir]

http://dynastywarriors.neoseeker.com/w/i/dynastywarriors/thumb/4/49/Pang_De_dw5.png/400px-Pang_De_dw5.png

that is cool... that is also a pair of spiked axes, not halberds... for one thing, their shafts should be twice as long as they currently are...
And IRL, anyone who wields them will be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to actually hitting anything (because they are big and unwieldy).
If the other players are ok with introducing some anime style oversized weapons, then do just that via refluff... just be consistent.

[AslanCross]

that is cool... that is also a pair of spiked axes, not halberds... for one thing, their shafts should be twice as long as they currently are...
And IRL, anyone who wields them will be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to actually hitting anything (because they are big and unwieldy).
If the other players are ok with introducing some anime style oversized weapons, then do just that via refluff... just be consistent.

He specified Small-sized Halberds, which I'd think would be about that big.