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OMG PONIES
2009-12-22, 01:50 PM
Hello all,

In my RL gaming group, we had a question come up regarding the action economy in 4E. I was under the impression that my warden could take one immediate interrupt or immediate reaction per round. However, one of my fellow players cited something in the PHB that made it sound like I can take one immediate ________ per enemy's turn. This didn't sound right, as it makes my warforged warden pwn even more face than he already does (which is a lot). So which is it?

Also, on an unrelated note, I noticed one item called the Locket of Timelessness or something of the sort, which lets you "trade" a minor action in order to take a standard action. Is there a similar item that lets you trade in a move action?

Yakk
2009-12-22, 01:56 PM
You get one OA per combatant's turn.

In addition, you get one minor, standard, move and immediate action per round. Your immediate and opportunity actions cannot be used on your own turn.

Generally, 4e avoids discouraging players from taking move actions, or lets players give up move actions in exchange for more offence. This seems to be a philosophical point: they want 4e combat to be mobile. And if not moving makes you win more, it sure is less likely to be mobile. :-)

Minor actions for sustaining effects or attack boosts is sometimes allowed. And you can burn your move action and get a minor. So it is possible to give up moves for offensive power, but only due to a shortage of minor actions. (Wizards sometimes end up doing this, with two powers each having sustain minor attached to them)

The one exception I know if is "steady shooter", the crossbow feat -- and even that doesn't prevent you from taking a move action, it just requires that you shoot your crossbow from where you ended your last turn (you can then move, and use it again next turn).

Kurald Galain
2009-12-22, 01:58 PM
I was under the impression that my warden could take one immediate interrupt or immediate reaction per round.
That is correct. The actions that you can take once per enemy turn are called "opportunity actions" (or certain free actions).



Also, on an unrelated note, I noticed one item called the Locket of Timelessness or something of the sort, which lets you "trade" a minor action in order to take a standard action. Is there a similar item that lets you trade in a move action?
It's an excellent item for its level. And no, I'm not aware of an item that lets you trade in a move action.

Hashmir
2009-12-22, 02:14 PM
It's an excellent item for its level. And no, I'm not aware of an item that lets you trade in a move action.

Well, due to the hierarchy of actions, such an item would by strictly inferior (unless it was lower-level). I mean, you can already turn your move action into a minor action any time you like, so you'd just be limiting yourself -- you would have Standard/Standard/Minor instead of Standard/Standard/Move, which you could turn into Standard/Standard/Minor anyway.

The only possible use for such an item would be to stack with the Timeless Locket and get three standard actions in a single turn, but they would both presumably be daily powers, so it still wouldn't work.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-22, 02:27 PM
they would both presumably be daily powers, so it still wouldn't work.
Why not? You can use multiple item dailies in the same round (assuming they're not both neck slot items).

Hashmir
2009-12-22, 03:00 PM
Never mind; I confused myself by talking about having such an item available earlier, so I was thinking in terms of heroic tier. By the time the Timeless Locket is available, you are in paragon anyway, so yes, you could use them both together to get a lot of nova action.

Just imagine what a team of five could do with Timeless Lockets, this theoretical non-neck-slot item, at least one action point each, and fully unused dailies/encounters. That's no less than twenty standard actions in a single round.

Out of curiosity, any ideas on how to make that more ridiculous? Is there a class with an ability that could squeeze some more actions out of that (probably a leader)? Or maybe a build that would let the party proactively use their opportunity and immediate actions?

Artanis
2009-12-22, 03:17 PM
There's also a few items out there that grant you stuff that would otherwise require an action. For instance, Ring of Draconic Zeal has a daily power that lets you make a basic attack as a free action, and Helm of Swift Punishment has a daily that lets you make two MBAs as an OA instead of just one.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-22, 03:23 PM
Out of curiosity, any ideas on how to make that more ridiculous?

Sure. Combine it with crit fishing.

Hashmir
2009-12-22, 03:36 PM
There's also a few items out there that grant you stuff that would otherwise require an action. For instance, Ring of Draconic Zeal has a daily power that lets you make a basic attack as a free action, and Helm of Swift Punishment has a daily that lets you make two MBAs as an OA instead of just one.

Unfortunately, at paragon all the item dailies are used up turning everything into standard actions. :smallfrown:

Anyway, I now want to see what a party dedicated to owning the action economy would look like. Barring the existence of any unknown classes capable of providing more actions, I'm thinking crit-avenger (tons of attacks!) and taclord (supernova!) would be nice. What else would either grant additional actions or benefit disproportionately from them?

Artanis
2009-12-22, 04:01 PM
A Battlefield Archer (Ranger PP) has a bunch of ways to get free APs. Does that count?

Yakk
2009-12-22, 04:16 PM
Bards slide allies. There is feat that lets you make an OA when you are slid.

Are OAs once per opponents turn, or once per combatant that isn't you turn?

Artanis
2009-12-22, 04:38 PM
On PHB 269, it says, "You can take one opportunity action on each other combatant’s turn. An opportunity action must be triggered by an enemy’s action."