Enlarge Person+Wildshape?

[deuxhero]

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form
Does it blend work?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes. Yes it does. Why wouldn't it?

[Optimystik]

It only works if you're Small (making you Medium.)

Wild Shape: "At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal..." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape)

Enlarge Person: The spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/EnlargePerson.htm)

If you're Medium or larger, and cast the spell first, wild shaping afterward will get you back to Medium or Small. But if you wild shape first, you won't be eligible for the spell anymore.

Sure to be ninja'd.

[ericgrau]

^ That was the OP's point. His type remains humanoid, and thus theoretically eligible for the spell.

It's ambiguous, depending on interpretation of "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." Supernatural is magical. If it does work the str bonus and dex penalty from such are set by the spell.

[The Glyphstone]

Doesn't Wildshape make you retain your original creature type?

[Yuki Akuma]

If you wildshape, then get enlarged, you'll be whatever you wildshaped into but one size category larger.

Why wouldn't it work like that?

[Narazil]

If you wildshape, then get enlarged, you'll be whatever you wildshaped into but one size category larger.

Why wouldn't it work like that?
Because Enlarge Person only enlarges Humanoids.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Because Enlarge Person only enlarges Humanoids.

Right and when you wildshape you are still a humanoid.

[Optimystik]

Doesn't Wildshape make you retain your original creature type?

Wild shape states "As alternate form, except as noted here." Since Wild Shape lists a creature type (Animal), that should overwrite the "you retain your creature type" line in Alternate Form.

[Yuki Akuma]

But Polymorph specifically states your type changes. Wildshape does not. So the part abotu changing into an Animal doesn't contradict the "your type doesn't change" part of Alternate Form.

[Optimystik]

A better cite would be Alter Self, which specifically states your type does not change, while Wild Shape does. It says "you turn into an Animal" not, "you turn into something that looks and communicates remarkably like an animal would, but is affected by spells and abilities as though it were humanoid instead."

[Yuki Akuma]

Then why does Polymorph say you can change into another creature type, then explicitly say your type changes to match?

[Optimystik]

Perhaps because Polymorph is a polymorph effect, but Wild Shape isn't.

[Bob]

At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental ... she retains her own creature type.

whether or not wildshape changes creature type, it's very clearly stated that the elemental version does not.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Perhaps because Polymorph is a polymorph effect, but Wild Shape isn't.

It doesn't actualy say you type becomes animal it just says you turn into an animal.


At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This is just saying that the form options are animals.


This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

This is saying that it functions as the alternate form special ability except as noted here... it doesn't say they change type.

Same reason why when a druid gets plant form and elemental form they don't gain that subtype.

[Optimystik]

It doesn't say they don't either.

As for why they don't, polymorph is no justification - Polymorph effects and Alternate Form effects are listed separately, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) so the wording of one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.

I admit it could go either way, but it is ambiguous.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It doesn't say they don't either.

...
I admit it could go either way, but it is ambiguous.

Actualy it does as it follows the alternate form rules which does state that.
"The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well."

So because in the wildshape exception section it doesn't state that it is overriding that aspect it doesn't.

[deuxhero]

Because Enlarge Person only enlarges Humanoids.

My need to ask on if they do was more because of size increase stacking actually. You are still a humanoid (that is explicit) though if Wildshape counts as a size increase is another question.

[Tahlathali]

if there is so much a question on whether enlarge person works or not, and you are in an animal form, could you not just use animal growth??? does the same thing but for animals (which you change in to) right?

[deuxhero]

I think that worked in 3.0, but it doesn't in 3.5 (and that is what the topic is for).

[Tahlathali]

ok, thanks for clarifying. in that case I would assume that since the wild shape explicitly says you retain your type, i.e. humanoid, that enlarge person would work on wildshaped humanoid

[Keld Denar]

Yes. Yes it does. Why wouldn't it?

No. Multiple size increases from multiple effects never stack. You can Alter Self into an Anis Hag and then Enlarge Person to be huge. You can't Righteous Might to be large, and then Enlarge Person to be huge. You can Expand to be huge, and then Enlarge Person to be gargantuan.

And you can't Wildshape and Enlarge Person and attain a size larger than either effect would grant you alone.

[Yuki Akuma]

My need to ask on if they do was more because of size increase stacking actually. You are still a humanoid (that is explicit) though if Wildshape counts as a size increase is another question.

Changing form isn't a size increase. It's changing form.

Edit: So what the hell is the justification that you can Alter Self into an anis hag and then Enlarge Person to be huge, but you can't wildshape into a black bear and Englarge Person to be large?

What the hell?

[deuxhero]

ok, thanks for clarifying. in that case I would assume that since the wild shape explicitly says you retain your type, i.e. humanoid, that enlarge person would work on wildshaped humanoid

I know it works if you change into an animal of your size, that isn't the issue. It's if wildshapeing into a larger creature counts as size increaseing magic or not.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, it is a size change. Its in Wildshape Errata, IIRC, or somewhere. I know it is.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, it is a size change. Its in Wildshape Errata, IIRC, or somewhere. I know it is.

Citation please. Because otherwise... no.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, I can't find anything in the errata. The closest proof I can come up with is:



Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,.




The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.


Thus, Alter Self (and all spells based on it, such as Polymorph) is a magical effect that can increase your size, and thus doesn't stack with Enlarge Person, as worded.

[Thinker]

Eh, I can't find anything in the errata. The closest proof I can come up with is:





Thus, Alter Self (and all spells based on it, such as Polymorph) is a magical effect that can increase your size, and thus doesn't stack with Enlarge Person, as worded.
That isn't really the same thing at all.

[Yuki Akuma]

So what about using alter self to transform into an anis hag and then using enlarge person to become huge?

[Keld Denar]

Alter Selfing into an Annis Hag is a magical effect that increases your size. Your size was medium before transforming, and you are large afterwards. Thus, your size increased. The cause of that size change? A magical effect. How is that not the same?

[Evard]

= fun

or maybe

= awesomness in a can!

[Zaydos]

I'd say it sounds like it should work, and wish I had thought of it myself (my chaos mage has to try this just for the fun factor).

Does anybody have the Rules Compendium (AFB) because that would have this if it was a change/errata.