PDA

View Full Version : Help for an Abjurant Champion build



Os1ris09
2009-12-23, 03:13 AM
Hey guys I was wondering are there any good classes that have full BAB progression and focus on INT as a main STAT? Because the build I am trying to make involves Abjurant Champion as a PrC and Wizard as a base class. Any help and feat recommendations would be helpful. Thanks GITP

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 03:16 AM
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9 (or 10)/Abjurant Champion 5 (or 4) is an old standby, getting INT to Initiative and 50% miss chance as an (Ex) ability.

Feats: get what you must to qualify for Swiftblade. Extend Spell is also good. Power Attack is a must, especially with Wraithstrike. Arcane Strike when in doubt. Use Heroics to grab whatever martial maneuver you could ever ask for. I recommend White Raven Tactics.

Os1ris09
2009-12-23, 03:22 AM
Where is Swiftblade located?

Kylarra
2009-12-23, 03:23 AM
Where is Swiftblade located?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-23, 03:25 AM
Warblade, from Tome of Battle, keys their special abilities off of Int. Full BAB, all melee martial weapon proficencies, Int to good things. What's not to love? Oh, and eventually Iron Heart Surge.

Swiftblade is good too, don't get me wrong, but another can be:

Warblade2/Wiz4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5/etc...

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 03:27 AM
Other options open to you: Grab Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) and put your obscure information on the mating rituals of pseudodragons to great use in slaying Wyverns, Wyrms, and other big nasties.

Also make sure you crack open the Book of Exalted Deeds and check out the Luminous Armor line of spells. As an Abjurant Champion, now laugh at fools who pay money to get better armor while you're sitting pretty in the pimpingest suit of armor since Samus donned the Light Suit to battle Mind Flayers in the future!

Smythen
2009-12-23, 03:33 AM
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9 (or 10)/Abjurant Champion 5 (or 4) is an old standby, getting INT to Initiative and 50% miss chance as an (Ex) ability.

Feats: get what you must to qualify for Swiftblade. Extend Spell is also good. Power Attack is a must, especially with Wraithstrike. Arcane Strike when in doubt. Use Heroics to grab whatever martial maneuver you could ever ask for. I recommend White Raven Tactics.

That is a d@mn nice cool build, i have to check that out. Just ad arcanedisciple Feat, and take war or competition domain, for the tough cleric buffs.
(added later)
Utterly useless until very high lvls. way to low hd for a melee build

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 03:34 AM
That is a d@mn nice build, i have to check that out. Just ad arcanedisciple Feat, and take war or competition domain, for the tough cleric buffs.

I'm a fan of the Destiny Domain, personally. Sure, it's for the late blooming 9th level spell, but I just love the idea of saying "No." and start rolling twice for everything during combat.

Smythen
2009-12-23, 03:49 AM
I'm a fan of the Destiny Domain, personally. Sure, it's for the late blooming 9th level spell, but I just love the idea of saying "No." and start rolling twice for everything during combat.

Its too late in the build by my opinion, just grab it at lvl 18 again.

Smythen
2009-12-23, 03:53 AM
WOW!!!!!
Perpetual Options (Ex): At 9th level, you can perform even more actions with the haste spell. Instead of making one extra attack at your highest base attack bonus while under the effect of a haste spell that you cast yourself, you now have the choice of making one extra move action or one extra standard action. For example, you could make three consecutive move actions with this ability, two move actions and one standard action, one move action and two standard actions, a full attack action and a move action, a full attack action and a standard action, a full round action and a move action, or a full round action and a standard action.

and
MANYSHOT.....

Smythen
2009-12-23, 04:22 AM
Hey guys I was wondering are there any good classes that have full BAB progression and focus on INT as a main STAT? Because the build I am trying to make involves Abjurant Champion as a PrC and Wizard as a base class. Any help and feat recommendations would be helpful. Thanks GITP

There also Swahbuckler, ads INT to lightweapon dammage from lvl 3.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 04:34 AM
There also Swahbuckler, ads INT to lightweapon dammage from lvl 3.

It's three levels to get to that point. Three levels translates into not being worth it, as that's another level and a half of spells. If you want another ability score to add to damage, look into Tome of Battle and the Shadow Blade feat. Heroics will get you there.

Os1ris09
2009-12-24, 06:10 PM
Ok here is the LVL 20 build I was considering because the player playing this guy doesn't like the wizards "memorize" spell list thing he likes to just go hey I know this blast spell lets cast it as many times as i can idea, I was going to make him this:

Human
Swashbuckler 1/Sorcerer 1/Swashbuckler 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/Sorcerer 9

Feats:
1st: Weapon focus [Rapier]
BF: Weapon Finese
Human:
3rd: Practiced Spellcaster (for CL's)
6th: Combat Casting (Prereq for Champion)
9th: Extend Spell, Metamagic
12th:
15th:
18th:

Sorry guys DM said no to the haste class. :.(

Also help on feats would be appreciated. Thanks GITP for all the help :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-12-24, 06:27 PM
Too many lost CLs, and no synergy between Swashbuckler and Sorcerer.

What would he say to a Sorcadin build?

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8 is the standard build. Lots and lots of Cha synergy.

1st Power Attack
3rd Practiced Spellcaster (CArcane)
6th Combat Casting
9th Arcane Strike (CWarrior)
12th Law Devotion
15th Minor Shapeshift (CMage)
18th Extend Spell

Use your Turn Undead uses to power Law Devotion, and your spells to power Arcane Strike. Minor Shapeshift gives you a bunch of Temp HP that make you hard to kill. Power Attack combined with AS and LD will generate most of your damage.

I'd use a 2handed slashing weapon (Glaive or Greatsword) if you want to use Whirling Blade a lot, or a 2handed bludgeoning weapon (Greatclub or Warmace) if you want to use Greater Mighty Wallop (RotDragon) a lot.

Os1ris09
2009-12-25, 12:19 AM
Unfortunately while that build is appeasing he doesn't like the LG restrictions alot. The class I meant to put was this:

SB 1/Wiz 1/SB 4/ AC 5/ Wiz 9

Reason for it is the DEX synergy (for AC) and INT for spells and DMG.

book of exalted deeds is a little to advanced for this player too. He only understands how to basic cast (which is why AC only need to cast mage armor and shield plus other buff spells before battle) and how to fight, which is why swashbuckler. He only has read the Complete series, DMG, and PH, and PHII.

Sorry to deny pretty much every build, and I may use some for my personal use, but he isn't that knowledgable of the game and quite honestly I understand the builds but not how to play them. :smallbiggrin: so ya thats what I got to work with, he is new and only knows the basics so I am trying to get him "popped" into spells so he is no longer a virgin. LOL

Os1ris09
2009-12-25, 12:22 AM
Unfortunately while that build is appeasing he doesn't like the LG restrictions alot. The class I meant to put was this:

SB 1/Wiz 1/SB 4/ AC 5/ Wiz 9

Reason for it is the DEX synergy (for AC) and INT for spells and DMG.

book of exalted deeds is a little to advanced for this player too. He only understands how to basic cast (which is why AC only need to cast mage armor and shield plus other buff spells before battle) and how to fight, which is why swashbuckler. He only has read the Complete series, DMG, and PH, and PHII.

Sorry to deny pretty much every build, and I may use some for my personal use, but he isn't that knowledgable of the game and quite honestly I understand the builds but not how to play them. :smallbiggrin: so ya thats what I got to work with, he is new and only knows the basics so I am trying to get him "popped" into spells so he is no longer a virgin. LOL

The build may also be this as well:

SB 1/ WIZ 4/ SS 1/ AC 5/ WIZ XX

I dont want PA unless he takes cleave to help with battle. I do want extend spell though so his buffs last longer and the CL high so that its harder to dispell his buffs. If there any questions plz ask and I can give better information and I recieve it from him. Also going to make him an account so that he can do this on his own now. LOL

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:22 AM
I strongly suggest that you stop trying to shove swashbuckler down the build's throat. What you get in no way compares to what you lose.

nekomata2
2009-12-25, 12:25 AM
There's also Wiz 5/ Crusader 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10/ Abj. Champ 4, interrupting the progression of JPM with AC to delay maneuver progression/

Os1ris09
2009-12-25, 02:41 AM
There's also Wiz 5/ Crusader 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10/ Abj. Champ 4, interrupting the progression of JPM with AC to delay maneuver progression/

What book is Jade Phoenix Mage in?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-25, 03:57 AM
JPM is in Tome of Battle.

Swashbuckler 1/ Wizard 4 doesn't meet the BAB or armor proficiency prerequisites for Spellsword. Swashbuckler was only playable in a Gish build when the only Complete was CW and you were stuck choosing from Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, and Bladesinger, and Swashbuckler was only in the super-weak Bladesinger build. Now we have classes like Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, Sacred Exorcist, and even Dragon Slayer. Swashbuckler doesn't even have any Int synergy at all unless you take three levels of it, in which case you'd always be better off just using more spellcasting levels instead.

Paladins don't have to be LG. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) There's even a Paladin for every alignment (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf), just start on page 73.

If you don't want to use a variant Paladin and you come to your senses and forget about Swashbuckler, consider using the following build:
Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 3/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8, probably using the Elf Wizard 1 racial substitution level from RotW. Compared to starting out Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ SS, it gets the same BAB, same spellcasting, better HD, better saves overall, more class skills, and of course +2 Int.

sofawall
2009-12-25, 04:25 AM
Neraph allows you to avoid losing caster levels to fighter.

Pluto
2009-12-25, 08:15 PM
I think you should try a Duskblade. You can find it in the PHB2 or on Crystalkeep. It's a full BA Int-based Spontaneous-casting class that does a pretty good job for a gish straight out of the can. It qualifies for AC at level 5 on its own.

But I would avoid that Swashbuckler/Sorcerer thing like the plague:

When I was new, I tried using Swashbuckler/Wizard to get into Bladesinger.
My plan was Swash 1/Wizard 1/Swash 2/Wizard 3/Bladesinger/Eldritch Knight.

Before I hit level 8, I had to ask my DM if I could just rebuild my character as a Bard. Even with only 12 Charisma, it was a better move than keeping levels in Swashbuckler.

Swashbuckler offers nothing to this sort of character. Its first two levels offer nothing. (If Weapon Finesse is the difference between a hit and a miss, your strength probably isn't high enough to do any damage anyway; +1 to Reflex saves is hardly a class ability.) The third level ability is only mediocre for a character who uses Intelligence as a primary stat; for a character who's dependant on 5/6 stats, it's probably going to be useless (it doesn't apply to many of the scary enemies and it will usually generate less damage than just two-handed Power Attacking with a non-finessable weapon).

...

So try Duskblade, either straight or multiclassed (its channeling works with all spells). Or try multiclassing with a real melee class (Warblade, Fighter, Crusader, Hexblade, etc). Hell, try straight-classing a Battle Sorcerer into Abjurant Champion (seriously; it's not such a trap until around level 15, and even then it has a case to be made for it). Even a Bard will deal more damage and will cast higher-level spells sooner than this Swashbuckler/Sorcerer monstrosity.

HCL
2009-12-25, 08:54 PM
Dwarf Crusader1/WizardX (I like focused specialist transmuter)

Then go into Abjurant champion, swiftblade, jade pheonix mage, or runesmith (that might not be its exact name) to taste

or if you can use a tiefling and buy off the LA just go straight wizard into abjurant champion

Os1ris09
2009-12-25, 10:47 PM
If you don't want to use a variant Paladin and you come to your senses and forget about Swashbuckler, consider using the following build:
Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 3/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8, probably using the Elf Wizard 1 racial substitution level from RotW. Compared to starting out Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ SS, it gets the same BAB, same spellcasting, better HD, better saves overall, more class skills, and of course +2 Int.

I like this build. It's simple for a new player, gets rid of the "ideal" that I had that swashbuckler and Sorcerer could have synergy through CHA (forgot to say that part in my previous posts :smallbiggrin:) and I have all the books for this build to support it in actual print.

Except I can't find Eldritch Knight?? Also where is Wraithstrike?

Thanks guys now all I need are feats. Nothing to fancy and the books I have/allowed are the following

PH, PHII, DMG, MM, all the Complete Series, ToB is restricted (can't be used :smallfrown:) Miniatures handbook, Dungeonscape, Cityscape, Unearthed Arcana

So far the feat progression I have is this:
1st: Combat Casting
BFF: Power Attack
3rd: (wraithstrike if I can find it)
6th: Extend spell (or 3rd lvl if I can't find WS)
9th: Spell Focus (or 6th lvl if I can't find WS)
12th: Energy Abjuration (for energy resistance when he casts shield swiftly AND gains energy resistance too [hopefully saves a spell]{will go to 9th if I cant find WS})

Any help with feats with the above build would be appreciated thanks guys

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-25, 11:21 PM
Except I can't find Eldritch Knight?? Also where is Wraithstrike?

Thanks guys now all I need are feats. Nothing to fancy and the books I have/allowed are the following

PH, PHII, DMG, MM, all the Complete Series, ToB is restricted (can't be used :smallfrown:) Miniatures handbook, Dungeonscape, Cityscape, Unearthed Arcana

So far the feat progression I have is this:
1st: Combat Casting
BFF: Power Attack
3rd: (wraithstrike if I can find it)
6th: Extend spell (or 3rd lvl if I can't find WS)
9th: Spell Focus (or 6th lvl if I can't find WS)
12th: Energy Abjuration (for energy resistance when he casts shield swiftly AND gains energy resistance too [hopefully saves a spell]{will go to 9th if I cant find WS})

Any help with feats with the above build would be appreciated thanks guys

Eldritch Knight is here, as well as in the 3.5 DMG. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) Wraithstrike is a spell out of Spell Compendium and considered by some to be "teh hax." Since you don't have it, the quick and dirty is melee attacks=touch attacks. Have fun.


As for the build itself, if you can use racial paragon levels, I would recommend human over elf. Because elves are fruity and pansies, and Con penalties are brutal.

I would roughly use Biffoniacus_Furiou's build, except switch out elf (and elf paragon) for human, using either Militia (feat) or Otherwordly (also, feat, both Player's Guide to Faerun) to qualify for Eldritch Knight. Cheatery of some kind may be necessary to qualify for Spellsword. I believe Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) gets you there.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-25, 11:23 PM
I've been contemplating a build like this as well.

However, mine will consist of the following:

Warmage 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5

Put on either Human, Orc, or Gnome (probably Orc, given the STR and CON boost, and plus I just like Orcs)

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-25, 11:27 PM
I've been contemplating a build like this as well.

However, mine will consist of the following:

Warmage 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5

Put on either Human, Orc, or Gnome (probably Orc, given the STR and CON boost, and plus I just like Orcs)

Don't orcs have a big penalty to int? and isn't warmage casting based of int?
I think the build itself is good but the race (orc) is nor optimal

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-25, 11:28 PM
I've been contemplating a build like this as well.

However, mine will consist of the following:

Warmage 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5

Put on either Human, Orc, or Gnome (probably Orc, given the STR and CON boost, and plus I just like Orcs)

Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm) does not not synergize well with gishes, due to the penalties to ALL mental stats. Warmage is similarly ineffective, due to the complete and utterlack of buff spells. Not saying you should play a wizard (although, really, it works well due to the delayed casting caused by EK and the occasional Fighter-dip), but sorcerer also does it better.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 11:30 PM
I've been contemplating a build like this as well.

However, mine will consist of the following:

Warmage 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5

Put on either Human, Orc, or Gnome (probably Orc, given the STR and CON boost, and plus I just like Orcs)

Warmages practically can't even benefit from Abjurant Champion levels. That's an absurdly bad idea. Wizard does it better in nearly every way.

Pluto
2009-12-25, 11:31 PM
Any help with feats with the above build would be appreciated thanks guys
Eldritch Knight is in the Dungeon Master's Guide and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm). It's basically 3.5's generic gish prestige class.

Wraithstrike is a second-level spell printed in Complete Adventurer and the Spell Compendium. It costs a swift action and turns all attacks into touch attacks for a round.

Regarding your build, I like Practiced Spellcaster (CDiv&Arc) as early as possible. It is a free extend at lower levels, a bit of a dispel shield at higher levels and it plays very nicely with the party Bard (if you have one).

Spell Focus is kind of mediocre, especially if you plan on the character spending most rounds hitting things with a pointy stick. I'd just specialize in Abjuration. EA isn't worth two feats and the extra spells are very nice (you'll probably be casting plenty of Abjurations with AC in your build). Practiced Spellcaster (CArc&Div), Knowledge Devotion (CChamp), Arcane Strike (CWar), Craft Contingent Spell (CArc), Minor Shapeshift (CMage), Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes and Improved Toughness (CWar) are all feats I'd take before Spell Focus. Especially in Abjuration.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-25, 11:32 PM
So really, I should kick AC to the curb and do 5 levels or Spellsword?

I was also in the wondering of how to make a Half-Orc Samurai (OA version) to be "against type"

new thread, y'all!

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-25, 11:36 PM
So really, I should kick AC to the curb and do 5 levels or Spellsword?

Abjurant Champion > Spellsword on nearly all accounts. The problem with the build, as has been mentioned is not in the Prestige part of the Classes used.

Os1ris09
2009-12-26, 12:58 AM
Eldritch Knight is in the Dungeon Master's Guide and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm). It's basically 3.5's generic gish prestige class.

Wraithstrike is a second-level spell printed in Complete Adventurer and the Spell Compendium. It costs a swift action and turns all attacks into touch attacks for a round.

Regarding your build, I like Practiced Spellcaster (CDiv&Arc) as early as possible. It is a free extend at lower levels, a bit of a dispel shield at higher levels and it plays very nicely with the party Bard (if you have one).

Spell Focus is kind of mediocre, especially if you plan on the character spending most rounds hitting things with a pointy stick. I'd just specialize in Abjuration. EA isn't worth two feats and the extra spells are very nice (you'll probably be casting plenty of Abjurations with AC in your build). Practiced Spellcaster (CArc&Div), Knowledge Devotion (CChamp), Arcane Strike (CWar), Craft Contingent Spell (CArc), Minor Shapeshift (CMage), Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes and Improved Toughness (CWar) are all feats I'd take before Spell Focus. Especially in Abjuration.

So I just realized that I dont have Complete Champion, does anyone know how I can get a PDF of it?

also the feat progression and build I am thinking about using now that I know Wraithstrike is a spell, is the following:

FTR 1 / Wiz 2 / Human Paragon 3 / SS 1 / AC 5 / EK 8
1st: Power Attack
BFF: Cleave
Human: Improved Initiative
3rd: Extend Spell
6th: Combat Casting
PHF: Practiced Spellcaster
9th: Minor Shapeshift
12th: Combat Reflex's
15th: ?
18th: ?

also can anyone recommend any "crappy" spell schools for this build that I can sacrifice to be a Abjuration specialist?

and Thanks for finding EK for me I have the DMG but forgot there are PrC's in there lol

tarbrush
2009-12-26, 06:18 AM
Last I heard, wotc didn't sell PDFs any more due to piracy concerns.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-26, 06:19 AM
{Please don't direct people there - or anywhere else offering non-OGL material in that manner.}

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 06:48 AM
So I just realized that I dont have Complete Champion, does anyone know how I can get a PDF of it?

Well, I purchased my PDF's a while back. Now that WotC's stopped with the sale of PDF's, the only method that's legal is purchasing the book, and scanning it into PDF format, for your own records.

Bottom line with all that stuff? As long as you've compensated the book's owners for the book, you're allowed to read it in whatever medium you like. There's not much way around the compensation part, however.

If you're looking for the book inexpensively, I recommend e-bay, or post ads in your local game store. If someone's making the switch to 4.0, they'll sometimes be willing to cut you a deal on 3.5 material.

Barring that, there's always Christmas and Birthdays.