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Fortuna
2009-12-23, 03:43 AM
Right. My friend recently decided to try to prove to me that, given a party of one rogue, one cleric, one fighter, and one wizard, replacing the wizard with two fighters will produce an equally viable party. He is insisting on the test being a no prep time (except to prep spells) arena. What is the most compelling argument that a wizard can throw? I already said Twinned Chain Enervation, but he claimed that that was too situational, and no wizard would ever prepare it. Help?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 03:45 AM
Right. My friend recently decided to try to prove to me that, given a party of one rogue, one cleric, one fighter, and one wizard, replacing the wizard with two fighters will produce an equally viable party. He is insisting on the test being a no prep time (except to prep spells) arena. What is the most compelling argument that a wizard can throw? I already said Twinned Chain Enervation, but he claimed that that was too situational, and no wizard would ever prepare it. Help?

Have a giant chasm with sheer cliffs. Sole goal? Fly Get to the top of the mountain.

EDIT: Yeah, for an arena, just have the wizard summon mooks and laugh. Also, be invisible, flying in the air as a simulacrum. Ta. Freaking. Da. Try that, Mr. Fighter.

Tavar
2009-12-23, 03:47 AM
What level? Sources?

Fortuna
2009-12-23, 03:48 AM
No buffing time, sadly. He says that both of his fighters have probably taken improved initiative and can therefore beat the wizard's initiative check as well, thereby killing him before he gets a turn. I believe this is a level 20 fight, with SRD only.

Edge of Dreams
2009-12-23, 03:49 AM
Totally depends:

What level?
How optimized are the fighters/wizard?
What does "viable" mean?
What kinds of challenges?
-Lots of little mobs or one big one?
-Caster enemies or tank enemies?
-Combat or social or puzzle?

For example, at level one, with most varying degrees of optimization, both parties would be "equally viable" for most challenges. At level 20 on the other hand, well, um.... Wish? Time Stop? Shapechange? Gate? We're not even talking metamagic or cheese here. I cast Time Stop, get at least 2 rounds, cast Delayed Blast Fireball twice (quicken?) in each of those rounds, which then goes off next round. That does, what, 80d6 damage? And that's just blasting, not save-or-dies.

EDIT: Contingency beats any amount of Initiative, as does Celerity. Also, arena combat is a totally different ballgame than party adventuring versus monsters and such. Arena comparisons have very little bearing on actual party performance over the course of an adventure.

Fortuna
2009-12-23, 03:51 AM
Level 20.
"Out-of-the-Box", whatever he thinks that means.
This is an arena combat between the parties.


EDIT: Yeah, I pulled out Contingency. He said "oh, well if you're going to pull out contingency..." and refused to elaborate.

Grumman
2009-12-23, 03:53 AM
Play a Wu Jen gish instead. Have your clones fight his fighters to the death for your amusement.

Cyclocone
2009-12-23, 03:55 AM
Use Moment of Prescience to win Initiative.
Cast Maximized Timestop.
Cast Gate... or pretty much anything really, it doesn't matter at this point.

Edge of Dreams
2009-12-23, 03:55 AM
EDIT: Yeah, I pulled out Contingency. He said "oh, well if you're going to pull out contingency..." and refused to elaborate.

This right here tells me that this is not the kind of person you even want to be having this discussion with. The only way to convince him would be to actually agree on a set of rules (e.g. SRD only, Wealth by Level, maximum 1 active contingency, etc. etc.) and play it out. If you try to do this with him, note how many spells he tries to ban and how much he wants to tweak rules in favor of his fighters. If he refuses the experiment entirely, you know right then and there he doesn't care about learning about the game and only cares about being right.

EDIT: Don't forget to bring up the possibility of multiple rounds to account for stupidly lucky rolls (BEFORE you get killed by a crit, so he doesn't think you're whining). And please try to remember the grand old motto that makes stuff like this so much easier to deal with:

"It's just a game"

Fortuna
2009-12-23, 04:14 AM
Alright then, I shall try that and see what happens.

Tavar
2009-12-23, 04:20 AM
If you want to be mean(hint, you do) use disjunction+some form of fly+protection from arrows. There, you're immune to whatever he can throw at you. Then just gate some solars in and laugh.

Also, any reason that no one would prepare an Enervation of Doom? How is that too situational?

Fortuna
2009-12-23, 04:23 AM
Come to think of it, I had actually said Twinned Chain Split Enervation, which by my reckoning came to a ninth level spell. He laughed and asked who on earth would blow a ninth level spell on that.

Tavar
2009-12-23, 04:26 AM
Yeah, who would blow a spell to give multiple enemies several negative levels. I mean, that only weakens their attacks, spells, saves, skills, hp, etc. Totaly worthless.


I suggest heavy use of that spell. Show him the error of his ways.

Demented
2009-12-23, 04:32 AM
Right. My friend recently decided to try to prove to me that, given a party of one rogue, one cleric, one fighter, and one wizard, replacing the wizard with two fighters will produce an equally viable party. He is insisting on the test being a no prep time (except to prep spells) arena. What is the most compelling argument that a wizard can throw? I already said Twinned Chain Enervation, but he claimed that that was too situational, and no wizard would ever prepare it. Help?

He's right.


Do you know why?


His party consists of four self-propelled wagons and a cleric. :smalltongue:

Fortuna
2009-12-23, 04:37 AM
Wheras mine consists of two self-propelled wagons, a cleric, and a wizard. :smalltongue:

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 04:38 AM
Honestly, I would just show him one of the numerous battles of 13th level wizards vs. 13 level fighters that were here recently. Or don't, and then use said people's tactics and laugh at him once disjunction ruins his day.

Also, if you're using Point-buy to determine stats, the wizard will win out. Wiht 32 PB, buy an 18 Int, and then a 14 and 16 for dex and con. Laugh as the fighters most spread themselves thin.

Demented
2009-12-23, 04:44 AM
Wheras mine consists of two self-propelled wagons, a cleric, and a wizard. :smalltongue:

Yes, but one of either is enough to win the game, unless you run into a BBEG who's been chain-gating solars for the past five years, in which case you've already lost.

Besides, the only two important outcomes are...
A) He is satisfied you said he's right and peace is restored.
B) He swaps his cleric with two more fighters and this becomes the Duel-of-the-Wizard-and-Cleric-Duo-Against-the-Five-Sheep-and-a-German-Shepherd (after the defeated have been ritually polymorphed, that is). You will be legend.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-23, 05:04 AM
If you get him to do this arena match here, I will be happy to help you mind crush him.

Fortuna
2009-12-23, 05:08 AM
Sadly, I think he might cry foul. However, you are welcome to PM me any advice you feel neccessary if I do manage that.

Grumman
2009-12-23, 05:10 AM
If you get him to do this arena match here, I will be happy to help you mind crush him.
Now that's just not sporting. Why not offer to help the underdog instead? Assisting Random_person will only tarnish his victory and raise the possibility that it would have been a closer battle if not for his advisors.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-23, 05:19 AM
I've heard the argument "Well, you won because you know the rules of DnD better than I do, therefore this proves nothing" before. The person who says that never says "Well, you sure know the rules of DnD better than I do. Maybe you were right and I was wrong."

Apparently, I'm good enough at DnD to beat him, but not good enough to be right.

olentu
2009-12-23, 05:21 AM
Now that's just not sporting. Why not offer to help the underdog instead? Assisting Random_person will only tarnish his victory and raise the possibility that it would have been a closer battle if not for his advisors.

Well if a party is going to make absolute statements then it should not matter if help was given.

Demented
2009-12-23, 05:23 AM
Why not offer to help the underdog instead?
His winning strat right here:
1. Max ranks of Use Magic Device on rogue.
2. Use Scroll of Wish.
3. Wish away all magic.
4. Hope that there's enough left of reality with which to kill the other team's wizard and cleric.

Grumman
2009-12-23, 05:27 AM
I've heard the argument "Well, you won because you know the rules of DnD better than I do, therefore this proves nothing" before. The person who says that never says "Well, you sure know the rules of DnD better than I do. Maybe you were right and I was wrong."
Exactly my point. Why give him that excuse?

Solaris
2009-12-23, 05:28 AM
Wise man say, when fool shoots his mouth off, give him more ammo.

Oslecamo
2009-12-23, 05:31 AM
Apparently, I'm good enough at DnD to beat him, but not good enough to be right.

No, you're good because you've got the backup of hundreds of people. What real chances would the wizard have if you didn't have all the optimization fu you learned on the net?


If the wizard is so uber, why do you need to come here screaming for help? Heck, there's even plenty of guides out there, and yet you need our baby sitting! What kind of uber class needs OVER 9000 guides to suceed?:smalltongue:

I always say, the pure terror wizards have of fighters just prove that they aren't half as uber as they claim!:smallbiggrin:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-23, 05:34 AM
No, you're good because you've got the backup of hundreds of people.
No... it's just me. I'm just that good. :smallamused:


What real chances would the wizard have if you didn't have all the optimization fu you learned on the net?
Hey, I created some of that optimization fu other people learned about on the net. :smalltongue:

lesser_minion
2009-12-23, 05:34 AM
As he has a cleric floating around, there will be at least some defensive magic on the table.

You may have a higher initiative modifier. Wizards usually have a higher dex than fighters, and also have access to improved initiative. I'd suggest avoiding Moment of Prescience - applying it to initiative checks is caster logic.

Also, how are these three fighters getting to your wizard? How far apart do you start?

It should be about 60ft, and the wizard can start further away than that, so he's completely safe from melee for the first round.

For the second round, he is fully buffed and busy nuking the cleric with his
split ray chained twinned enervation. For, what was it, 5d4 + 5 negative levels?

That's a no-save-just-lose in the very least.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-23, 05:35 AM
His winning strat right here:
1. Max ranks of Use Magic Device on rogue.
2. Use Scroll of Wish.
3. Wish away all magic.
4. Hope that there's enough left of reality with which to kill the other team's wizard and cleric.
See, that part exceeds the limits of what wish can do safely, and is likely to result in a huge backfire.

olentu
2009-12-23, 05:35 AM
No, you're good because you've got the backup of hundreds of people. What real chances would the wizard have if you didn't have all the optimization fu you learned on the net?


If the wizard is so uber, why do you need to come here screaming for help? Heck, there's even plenty of guides out there, and yet you need our baby sitting! What kind of uber class needs OVER 9000 guides to suceed?:smalltongue:

I always say, the pure terror wizards have of fighters just prove that they aren't half as uber as they claim!:smallbiggrin:


If that is said then one should be able to derive that it would be quite reasonable that the other side would not change its mind and so the argument is fruitless.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-23, 05:37 AM
Also, how are these three fighters getting to your wizard? How far apart do you start?

It should be about 60ft, and the wizard can start further away than that, so he's completely safe from melee for the first round.
In addition, Overland Flight.

mikej
2009-12-23, 05:37 AM
Seriously? This is really overdone. I'm sure there is plenty of good threads that can answer this debate and save the effort wasted on him. It's just not worth it. Or let him think whatever he wants.


EDIT: Yeah, I pulled out Contingency. He said "oh, well if you're going to pull out contingency..." and refused to elaborate.

Well then, this guy knows his is screwed. I knew a guy that also pulled the same stuff. The Fighter ( later Monk ) could pwn any caster but only if Contingency is not allowed. Soo it will now be "The Fighter can win against the Wizard...if Contingency is banned."

Oslecamo
2009-12-23, 05:38 AM
No... it's just me. I'm just that good. :smallamused:
Prove that you never readed any guides will you?



Hey, I created some of that optimization fu other people learned about on the net. :smalltongue:

You'll have to point me to your glorious guides then, because I don't remember seeing your name in any of the popular ones.

MeTheGameGuy
2009-12-23, 05:42 AM
The only way to convince him would be to actually agree on a set of rules (e.g. SRD only, Wealth by Level, maximum 1 active contingency, etc. etc.)

NO ITEMS! FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION! :smallwink:

All you need to do is either A) win initiative or B) avoid being attacked in the first round. After that, you've won. Pull a Time Stop and launch a Delayed Blast Fireball (two if you've got enough rounds). After that, cast Fly and get well out of his blades' ranges - or, better, pull up a Prismatic Sphere around the party. Let's see him get through that in the one round he's got before you blast him with Meteor Swarm. :smallamused:

Granted, there's obviously other strategies possible.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-23, 05:45 AM
Says the man who didn't know how tower shields work.
When you use logical fallacies as an argument, you know you've run out of arguments.

Anyways, here Ozzy wishes to insinuate that because I do not know how tower shields work I am not good at DnD. He fails, because I do infact know how tower shields work, and have never indicated otherwise.

What he may be thinking of is the occasion in which I mentioned that it was possible to drop a very large bag of rocks on a fighter, and Giacomo mentioned that the fighter's tower shield would give him total cover and protect him from area attacks. Whereupon I pointed out that if a tower shield could protect against a bag of rocks that fills up your square, it would also protect you against boulders in the event of an avalanche, or rubble in the event of a cave in, which is obviously absurd. The tower shield's total cover is not a protection from everything, especially if said thing is aimed at crushing the contents of the square that you are in.


You'll have to point me to your glorious guides then, because I don't remember seeing your name in any of the popular ones.
Clarification: I help people with build and things. That falls under the category of creating optimization fu that people learn from the internet.

Edit: And Ozzy has now retracted the statement about tower shields. Now he wishes for me to prove that I have never read any guides.

I shall simply state that I was kicking goblinoid behind as a cleric when I first started DnD, and before I really started learning about it on the internet, and leave it at that.

Killer Angel
2009-12-23, 05:55 AM
I already said Twinned Chain Enervation, but he claimed that that was too situational, and no wizard would ever prepare it.

:smallconfused:


He says that both of his fighters have probably taken improved initiative and can therefore beat the wizard's initiative check as well

:smallmad:


EDIT: Yeah, I pulled out Contingency. He said "oh, well if you're going to pull out contingency..." and refused to elaborate.

:smallsigh:

Now, leaving aside all tactics and various considerations, it appears that your DM has a very strong bias versus this argument. Fighters win and beat wizards.
The real question is: your DM is the kind of guy that CAN admit his errors and change his mind?
Otherwise, this is all worthless...



Honestly, I would just show him one of the numerous battles of 13th level wizards vs. 20 level fighters that were here recently.

Fixed for you. :smallsmile:

Setra
2009-12-23, 06:03 AM
Bah, just make sure your dex is as high as possible, and take improved initiative. As long as you go first you shouldn't have a problem.

If they get a lot of magic items, then you do too, except you can Disjunction.

Of course I probably don't know what I'm talking about so feel free to ignore me.

Demented
2009-12-23, 06:09 AM
See, that part exceeds the limits of what wish can do safely, and is likely to result in a huge backfire.
It's at least worth a try. He's already up against two prepared spellcasters with a grudge who probably just won initiative. How much worse can it get?

Aquillion
2009-12-23, 06:11 AM
I already said Twinned Chain Enervation, but he claimed that that was too situational, and no wizard would ever prepare it. Help?Situational to what? Enemies that are alive?

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 06:19 AM
The real question is: your DM is the kind of guy that CAN admit his errors and change his mind?
Otherwise, this is all worthless...

This, really.

Otherwise, it'd take you all of five minutes to pick some spells that will nuke his fighters from orbit. Assuming you have a neutral DM, that is. Does "no buffing time" disallow you from casting a spell in the morning that lasts all day? Because if not, this is heavily favoring the fighters.

Do the fighters start in charge range? That's another point in their favor. Can they do enough missile damage to down you before you get to act? Probably not, but worth considering.

And the usual: invest in initiative, and invest in a few out-of-turn spells. Dropping a solid fog on the fighters should buy you enough time to do whatever you want.

tyckspoon
2009-12-23, 06:50 AM
Situational to what? Enemies that are alive?

Yes, nobody could ever want to apply 2-8 negative levels to every opponent they can see. That would be a silly thing to prepare- definitely a scroll spell there! Use your actual slots on things like Energy Drain!


(Not entirely sarcastic, there, even- the way Enervation works, it is actually just as effective cast from a scroll. Which suggests an interesting Stupid Wizard Trick if you really want to rub in the point: win with only spells cast from scrolls.)

cenghiz
2009-12-23, 07:02 AM
Note: I don't play D&D any more except a few friends forcing me for short campaigns and I've never been an optimizer but this is a challenge possibly even I would beat with ease. Without any optimization-fu:

Let's assume only SRD is available:

1. Hummingbird familiar, improved initiative, high dex. Now it will be less possible for fighters to win initiative.
2. Prepare quickened grease and solid fog/acid fog. (Isn't it strange that lvl.1 grease would possibly be enough to keep fighters immobile for long if they're not flying?)
3. Prepare Summon Monster IX - Leonal several times.. It can lay on hands for its full hit points, has +20 claws - which means he may likely hit fighters, 27 AC, so it possibly won't be an autohit for fighters, it can pounce, rake, it has improved grab, its protective aura prohibits spells lesser than level three.... It's a nice one to offer the opposition as a target while you prepare more traps.
4. I know it's sub-optimal but... Heh! Entrap them inside grease+fog and blast inside the fog with area effects. Force them out. I don't know when 'time stop' should be cast to make this tactic more viable and I'm sure it can be improved but I know no optimization fu.
5. Remember you have a cleric, too.. Let him buff your party up, curse the opposition. He doesn't need to be clericzilla.
6. Time stop? Save-and-suck-or-don't-save-and-die's? Non-SRD stuff? Gah.. Be nice to him.

In the end, I do not think your friend knows D&D more than I do, or he wouldn't claim such a thing - x amounts of level 20 fighters can beat a level 20 wizard.

And last of all, this is a stupid challenge. A party member's value should be all about his aid in the motives of the party, not about just how much damage he can dish out or how fast he can kill. Even if two fighters could beat a wizard, this would prove nothing. Wizard can still divine answers, offer utility of magic and empower other party members, which fighters can't.

Note: I know rings of free movement, I just don't know how to bypass them for the fog to work. And I won't bother searching for it. I'm nearly alien to D&D right now.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-23, 07:06 AM
Note: I know rings of free movement, I just don't know how to bypass them for the fog to work. And I won't bother searching for it. I'm nearly alien to D&D right now.
Disjunction or Dispel Magic.

suryasm
2009-12-23, 11:57 AM
If magic items are allowed, then a Greater Quicken Rod should be a must for your wizard. Cast a Time Stop somehow, and then you can dump all your deadliest spells on the opposition before they can recover.

As an aside, how useful are the Sudden metamagic feats? Because I kinda like the Sudden Maximize. Would it be really silly to apply it to Time Stop?

Pyro_Azer
2009-12-23, 04:39 PM
Also having an elf with their racial sub as well as a hummingbird familiar would be a good idea. As would an eager warning dagger.

Winning inititive must be your first priority so that you can get a timestop off before he can act and get your buffs on such as invisibility and fly.

Akisa
2009-12-23, 04:47 PM
Also having an elf with their racial sub as well as a hummingbird familiar would be a good idea. As would an eager warning dagger.

Winning inititive must be your first priority so that you can get a timestop off before he can act and get your buffs on such as invisibility and fly.

You're better off using Core and letting the fighter use whatever he wants to prove a point.

Flickerdart
2009-12-23, 04:53 PM
Also having an elf with their racial sub as well as a hummingbird familiar would be a good idea. As would an eager warning dagger.

Winning inititive must be your first priority so that you can get a timestop off before he can act and get your buffs on such as invisibility and fly.
Focused specialist is considerably better than mere Elf Generalist. As for initiative, yes, without Contingency, Initiative matters. Moment of Prescience it up, then Disjunction and Sudden Quickened Disjunction, then Sudden Maximized Time Stop, then two Force Cages and two Cloudkills.

lesser_minion
2009-12-23, 04:54 PM
I'm going to revise my earlier point that you should be safe from melee on the first round.

A 20th level fighter can gain flight with a feat (Leadership to obtain a flying mount) and can also use mounted combat feats while flying. Optimising from there is a task I leave up to your friend.

I'm pretty sure the Flight spells are slower than quite a few flying monsters though - you'd need a phantom steed to have much chance of actually being faster.

Of course, you might be able to equip for that route as well.

Flickerdart
2009-12-23, 04:55 PM
Let's see how co-operative their Cohort is after he's eaten the business end of a Dominate Monster. Or just Solid Fog them to the ground.

Eldariel
2009-12-23, 04:58 PM
Part 1: Win Initiative (even if you cannot use spells, just put all your level-ups to Dex, be Gray Elf, pick Improved Initiative, etc. Fighters need Str so they'll lose; you can make do with 30 Int)
Part 2: Cast Maximized Time Stop
Part 3: Activate Beads of Karma through UMD
Part 4: Cast Gate, Gate in something sick. Also, you may want to Quicken a bunch of protective spells here. Maybe also leave some area damage on the Fighters if you feel so inclined. Repeat as necessary.
Part 5: Ready an action for when the Time Stop ends; allows you to effectively take a Standard Action in normal time stream. Maybe Enervate the ****ers into oblivion or Chain Dispel all their precious magic items or whatever. Oh, and have your gated Great Wyrms or Solars or whatever take their actions.


Of course, you should point out to him that Wizards always have hour/level buffs on at that point since they can exceed caster level 24. In fact, said spells will only take a spell slot every other day thanks to Extend Spell enabling you to keep them on for over 28 hours.

Therefore, if he insists Wizards don't have buffs on, he's creating an artificial environment that cannot really exist in a real game. He should realize soon enough that for the test to be meaningful to any degree, Wizards should have access to their normal daily buff routine.


Also note that since it's Core, Dominate Person/Monster is very likely to work on a Fighter. They don't really have access to Mind Blank, you can easily Dispel any Protections and their Will-saves aren't gonna be good enough to make DC 30 Will-saves consistently.

lesser_minion
2009-12-23, 05:04 PM
Let's see how co-operative their Cohort is after he's eaten the business end of a Dominate Monster. Or just Solid Fog them to the ground.

There are at least two different ways to make them invulnerable to dominate monster, both of which are available to RP's friend. In the very least, you'd have to waste an action here to dispel, and it wouldn't hit all of them (you'd be up against a CL higher than the spell's cap).

This is still incredibly in Random Person's favour, but if RP's friend plays well and RP doesn't, it might actually go badly.

Since this is an 'as played' test, it might not be the total curb-stomp that would be expected under RAW as applied to a featureless infinite environment.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 05:20 PM
It does look a lot of people are forgetting this is party-vs-party, not fighters-vs-wizard two-on-one. I imagine that with clever tactics and certain initial conditions, many of you could find ways for the fighters' cleric to neutralize the wizard and his cleric for at least a couple of rounds. Long enough, perhaps, for the fighters to get some kills?

Suppose you were taking the side of a cleric, rogue, and 3 fighters vs. a cleric, rogue, wizard, and fighter. Is it possible to get a win without UMD? With the rogues using UMD, it is 2 casters and 3 fighters vs. 3 casters and 1 fighter, and the fighters' odds are looking decent. If the fighters start using UMD, then they're basically acting as wizards and the test is pointless.

jindra34
2009-12-23, 05:26 PM
In all honesty with party on party conditions it is possible to build a party like what your friend is suggesting to match the quotable standard party. However such a party is inherently reliant on the dies roles and has absolutely no versatility built into it. Now if you really want to test your friends idea you should take the two parties and run them through a gamut of varied encounters and compare their performance as opposed to doing an arena match opposition. I think that would show the truth better.
Edit: Aldizog: Yes it is possible if you match builds for everything else and then build the remaining two fighters to be blitz barrage archers. Which as I stated are really not useful in a regular campaign.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-23, 05:45 PM
A rogue/cleric/fighter/wizard party is just as viable as a rogue/cleric/fighter/fighter/fighter party. Until the Ceiling Rock Monster falls down on everyone and eats them, then either party is just an entre. :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2009-12-23, 05:47 PM
Suppose you were taking the side of a cleric, rogue, and 3 fighters vs. a cleric, rogue, wizard, and fighter. Is it possible to get a win without UMD? With the rogues using UMD, it is 2 casters and 3 fighters vs. 3 casters and 1 fighter, and the fighters' odds are looking decent. If the fighters start using UMD, then they're basically acting as wizards and the test is pointless.

Define 'fighter' and sources being tapped. Straight class, Core material? Not really a contest. The Rogues counter each other, the Clerics counter each other, and you have a Wizard dealing with 3 Fighters. Negating the advantage of numbers is just one of those things Wizards *do*, and negating a core-restricted Fighter isn't even that big a job. You get one action, you use it to Time Stop, you defensively buff yourself into being untouchable and unfindable, and you set about eliminating your opposition in any dang way you choose.

With correctly optimized builds for the 'Fighters' I.. would still bet on the side that has a Wizard, but if there's a Hulking Hurler, a Charger, and a Lockdown fighter on the opposition team the Wizard at least has to actually care what they do, because they're liable to completely splatter his own support if he doesn't.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 05:50 PM
Focused specialist is considerably better than mere Elf Generalist.
This is very true.


then two Force Cages and two Cloudkills.
This, however, is very not true. I'm sure that Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61295) will be happy to explain why.

Foeofthelance
2009-12-23, 05:53 PM
Hmmm. I was going to ask what a fighter would need to survive such an encounter, expecting to design something dex based and relying on potions to avoid disjunctions. Gate didn't worry me too much, since the Cleric would be able to dispel/dismiss summons.

Then I went and read enervation. 1d4 negative levels, no save, and a several hour duration? Who thought that was a balanced spell, especially for 4th level?

So then what options does a fighter have? Not to necessarily win, but be as general a pain in the neck as possible, even if that means pulling out a bunch of ham sandwiches while waiting for protection from arrows and fly to run out.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 05:54 PM
Define 'fighter' and sources being tapped. Straight class, Core material? Not really a contest. The Rogues counter each other, the Clerics counter each other, and you have a Wizard dealing with 3 Fighters. Negating the advantage of numbers is just one of those things Wizards *do*, and negating a core-restricted Fighter isn't even that big a job. You get one action, you use it to Time Stop, you defensively buff yourself into being untouchable and unfindable, and you set about eliminating your opposition in any dang way you choose.
See, what I'm not sure about is "the Rogues counter each other, the Clerics counter each other." Is it that simple?

I think if you were the player controlling the fighters' party, you could come up with some better tactics than that pairing off.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 05:58 PM
Then I went and read enervation. 1d4 negative levels, no save, and a several hour duration? Who thought that was a balanced spell, especially for 4th level?
To be fair it does require an attack roll. Spells generally require either a save or an attack. It's only with metamagic that enervation becomes really obnoxious.


I think if you were the player controlling the fighters' party, you could come up with some better tactics than that pairing off.
Yes, but if he's the kind of player that thinks that two fighters equal one wizard, I have my doubts about the effectiveness of the tactics he'll be using.

Foeofthelance
2009-12-23, 06:01 PM
To be fair it does require an attack roll. Spells generally require either a save or an attack. It's only with metamagic that enervation becomes really obnoxious.


It requires a ranged touch attack. Even at level 4 most wizards should be able to ignore what little dex mod most things have. And if its that big a deal... True Strike.

jindra34
2009-12-23, 06:04 PM
Yes, but if he's the kind of player that thinks that two fighters equal one wizard, I have my doubts about the effectiveness of the tactics he'll be using.

And also to really prove his arguement he would have to show two fighters can be as useful as a wizard, if everything else does not line up equally the test can be considered inconclusive.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 06:11 PM
And also to really prove his arguement he would have to show two fighters can be as useful as a wizard, if everything else does not line up equally the test can be considered inconclusive.
I don't agree. That wasn't his claim, so why should he have to prove it?
There are synergies and interactions in determining how useful characters are in groups. It is quite possible to claim that "Rogue + Cleric + 3 Fighters" = "Rogue + Cleric + Wizard + Fighter" without claiming that "2 Fighters = Wizard." This isn't simple arithmetic. The terms don't cancel out.

As an example, I'd say that Druid + Bard > Druid + Rogue. Does that mean that Bard > Rogue? Not necessarily. But bard synergizes very well with druid.

tyckspoon
2009-12-23, 06:15 PM
See, what I'm not sure about is "the Rogues counter each other, the Clerics counter each other." Is it that simple?

I think if you were the player controlling the fighters' party, you could come up with some better tactics than that pairing off.

No, I don't think it's *that* simple. There's just too many potential tactics to declare that as an affirmative truth, but I do think that in general the presence of a Rogue and Cleric on one side will roughly balance the presence of a Rogue and Cleric on the other- not that they will simply cancel each other (although it is a possibility if one of the Clerics goes Counterspell focused), but the pairs will probably do about the same amount of damage to the other team, leaving the presence or absence of the Wizard/Fighters to be the major factor that tips the victory. With the caveat that whichever side optimizes initiative/cheeses their way out of having to actually test initiative at all will probably win, because D&D rewards offense. And Wizards have much better tools for that.

Foeofthelance
2009-12-23, 06:26 PM
No, I don't think it's *that* simple. There's just too many potential tactics to declare that as an affirmative truth, but I do think that in general the presence of a Rogue and Cleric on one side will roughly balance the presence of a Rogue and Cleric on the other- not that they will simply cancel each other (although it is a possibility if one of the Clerics goes Counterspell focused), but the pairs will probably do about the same amount of damage to the other team, leaving the presence or absence of the Wizard/Fighters to be the major factor that tips the victory. With the caveat that whichever side optimizes initiative/cheeses their way out of having to actually test initiative at all will probably win, because D&D rewards offense. And Wizards have much better tools for that.

True...it could be that the extra two fighters pull their weight by harassing the opposing cleric rather than by engaging the wizard, rather leaving him to their cleric-zilla. Sort of the equivalent of giving up a queen in a game of chess in exchange for two extra knights, I suppose. They won't come close to challenging the opposing queen on her own terms, but they could make it more difficult for her to achieve her objectives...

If I was running the 3-fighter party I'd try to split my forces like this:

Cleric Vs. Enemy Wizard
Rogue + Fighter flanking Vs. Enemy Cleric
Fighter Vs. Enemy Rogue
Fighter Vs. Enemy Fighter

Tactics:
1) Have the cleric keep the wizard busy basically by spamming dispels, anti-sucks, and save buffs on the rest of the party

2) Have the fighter and rogue flank the cleric, holding their actions to interrupt his casting with their own attacks. Leapfrog advancing by having one run toward the cleric while the other one uses a ranged attack. Try to use the Rogue's backstabs to drop the cleric as possible while the fighter power attacks as often as possible.

3) Lock the enemy rogue down with a tank fighter, relying on high AC to avoid damage and opportunity attacks to foil any UMD silliness.

4) Fighter vs. Fighter is basically a zero sum game, depending on the builds. Try to drag it out as long as possible if the worst build, try to finish it quickly and gang up on the enemy cleric if having the better build.

So 2 fighters =/= wizard, they just provide more tactical options.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 06:29 PM
No, I don't think it's *that* simple. There's just too many potential tactics to declare that as an affirmative truth, but I do think that in general the presence of a Rogue and Cleric on one side will roughly balance the presence of a Rogue and Cleric on the other- not that they will simply cancel each other (although it is a possibility if one of the Clerics goes Counterspell focused), but the pairs will probably do about the same amount of damage to the other team, leaving the presence or absence of the Wizard/Fighters to be the major factor that tips the victory. With the caveat that whichever side optimizes initiative/cheeses their way out of having to actually test initiative at all will probably win, because D&D rewards offense. And Wizards have much better tools for that.

Okay, but what I'd do if I were playing the lone cleric is to figure out "How can I neutralize both spellcasters for at least a few rounds?" Forget about doing damage, but figure out specific tactics to maximize my side's advantage in numbers and melee power. Moment of Prescience and Time Stop could be available to me as well, as well as Gate and Miracle. A Widened Antimagic Field might tip the playing field depending on where we're fighting. If I can knock out all magic, then Cleric has just canceled out Cleric + Wizard, a good deal. Less effective, but larger area, Widened Silence and Quickened Widened Silence. Plane Shift and Astral Projection could allow for multiple tries to beat these adversaries. Point is, I'm sure you could figure out some specific tactics that you'd use if that were your party. Parties develop tactics to make use of the resources they have.

I do think the odds favor the wizard. But I'm curious about what tactics the lone cleric could pull out.

lesser_minion
2009-12-23, 06:33 PM
Yes, nobody could ever want to apply 2-8 negative levels to every opponent they can see. That would be a silly thing to prepare- definitely a scroll spell there! Use your actual slots on things like Energy Drain!

Of course the only advantage to Energy Drain is the possibility that your target permanently loses levels from it, meaning that it's really the province of evil DMs from hell because no one else wants to do that.

Although an Extended Enervation actually does that as well, IIRC.

jindra34
2009-12-23, 06:51 PM
Okay, but what I'd do if I were playing the lone cleric is to figure out "How can I neutralize both spellcasters for at least a few rounds?" Forget about doing damage, but figure out specific tactics to maximize my side's advantage in numbers and melee power. Moment of Prescience and Time Stop could be available to me as well, as well as Gate and Miracle. A Widened Antimagic Field might tip the playing field depending on where we're fighting. If I can knock out all magic, then Cleric has just canceled out Cleric + Wizard, a good deal. Less effective, but larger area, Widened Silence and Quickened Widened Silence. Plane Shift and Astral Projection could allow for multiple tries to beat these adversaries. Point is, I'm sure you could figure out some specific tactics that you'd use if that were your party. Parties develop tactics to make use of the resources they have.

I do think the odds favor the wizard. But I'm curious about what tactics the lone cleric could pull out.

I will agree with you that there are tactics/build combos that can make this a decently interesting match. However most of those builds are hindered in out of arena viability by the lack of versatility they put onto all three fighters. Now if you replaced the extra two fighters with other full bab classes (preferably ranger and paladin) then I would admit that the point would be better served.