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View Full Version : [3.5] Contigeny vs. Time stop



weenie
2009-12-23, 07:32 AM
So, if a caster has a Contigency spell cast on himself, that teleports him away as soon as somebody comes closer than 20ft to him, and another caster uses time stop to get near the first caster, what happens?

In case the contigency doesn't go off, what happens if the second caster casts Antimagic field once he's standing near the first one?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-23, 07:37 AM
If someone approaches within a Time Stop effect, the contingency won't go off because it won't have any time to go off in.

If the time stopped guy cast Antimagic Field... I'm not even sure he can, due to the fact that you can't enter an antimagic field when you're time stopped.

But if he did, the contingency guy would be screwed.

Jayabalard
2009-12-23, 07:40 AM
If someone approaches within a Time Stop effect, the contingency won't go off because it won't have any time to go off in.Time stop speeds you up rather than actually stopping time: "In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds."

So it seems to me that the contingency would fire just fine.

Cyclocone
2009-12-23, 07:41 AM
Despite it's name, 3.5 Time Stop doesn't actually stop time anyone. Instead, it speeds time up for the caster.
Hence, the Contingency would not be caught in null-time and should still trigger.

EDIT: Apparently, the Ninjas here have Time Stop too.

weenie
2009-12-23, 07:43 AM
Well, as I understand it, when the caster who's under the time stop spell(let's call him caster A) casts antimagic field, the time stop effect is temporarily suppressed. But would the antimagic field also suppress the contigency spell, or would the contigency go off first?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-23, 07:44 AM
It really depends how quick off the draw you think contingency effects are. If they're literally instantaneous... well.

Also, how fast can you teleport? Does that happen in a single instant or does it take a few seconds?

weenie
2009-12-23, 07:48 AM
Time stop speeds you up rather than actually stopping time: "In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds."

So it seems to me that the contingency would fire just fine.

This is what I was worried about. So there's no real way to avoid those damn contingencies after all?

Chrono22
2009-12-23, 07:49 AM
This is what I was worried about. So there's no real way to avoid those damn contingencies after all?
Targetted dispel magic.:smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-23, 07:49 AM
This is what I was worried about. So there's no real way to avoid those damn contingencies after all?

Abuse the wording. "Teleport me to my sanctum as soon as somebody comes within twenty feet of me"? Well, cast dimensional anchor from twenty-five feet...

weenie
2009-12-23, 07:54 AM
Any smart caster would include conditions such as or when I'm targeted with a spell, or when someone targets me with a ranged weapon, or when an area effect covers my square etc. I was looking for a way to shut down any possible contingencies a mage could have put up, not just the 'people getting close' one. That was simply the one that could prevent my scheme to work.

lord_khaine
2009-12-23, 08:07 AM
I dont think there actualy are anything official on this, so it would depend on a GM ruling.

Riffington
2009-12-23, 08:09 AM
Any smart caster would include conditions such as or when I'm targeted with a spell, or when someone targets me with a ranged weapon, or when an area effect covers my square etc.

So that some gangly teen has up Detect Magic and *bam* caster's home and out a contingency?

Chrono22
2009-12-23, 08:12 AM
But, isn't casting contingency to prevent someone from dispelling your contingency pointless? You can only have one contingency up at a time, so chances are the trigger conditions aren't going to be so overly general.

Oooh, I see. You should read up how dispel works.

dispel magic can target a specific spell effect, rather than a character. In this case, the trigger condition "when I'm targeted with a spell" is not a factor.
And last I checked, contingencies can only have one trigger condition at a time. So saying "when I'm targeted with a spell, or when someone targets me with a ranged weapon, or when an area effect covers my square" is not a valid trigger.

jseah
2009-12-23, 08:12 AM
That's a matter of wording.

Although, if the caster is too cautious in his contingencies, enemies who have divined the nature of his contingencies can abuse them.

Like in the targetted spell form, just hit him with a low level target spell, eg. magic missile.

Contingency only keys off what the caster is aware of. So dispelling him from under superior invisibility + mindblank would get through almost all detection efforts.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 08:39 AM
Any smart caster would include conditions such as or when I'm targeted with a spell, or when someone targets me with a ranged weapon, or when an area effect covers my square etc. I was looking for a way to shut down any possible contingencies a mage could have put up, not just the 'people getting close' one. That was simply the one that could prevent my scheme to work.

That's easy: have the fighter approach him, and ready an action to counterspell his escape.


Contingency only keys off what the caster is aware of. So dispelling him from under superior invisibility + mindblank would get through almost all detection efforts.

Not true - Contingencies can fire even under circumstances when the caster is unaware of anything, such as being unconscious or blind.

From Complete Arcane, "Contingent Spells":

"Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded."

It then goes on to say this:

"A contingent spell is tied to the bearer’s body, alive or dead, and stories
circulate among adventurers of contingent spells remaining quiet for hundreds of years on a slain bearer’s remains, only to suddenly activate when the proper trigger condition arises."

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 09:14 AM
As time stop is really the caster moving super fast, as said, the contingency triggers but the contingent spell doesn't have time to finish until after the time stop is over because only a nanosecond of real time has passed within that time.

Essentially the contingent spell is triggered during the time stop and happens as soon as the time stop ends.

bosssmiley
2009-12-23, 09:52 AM
Despite it's name, 3.5 Time Stop doesn't actually stop time anyone. Instead, it speeds time up for the caster.
Hence, the Contingency would not be caught in null-time and should still trigger.

EDIT: Apparently, the Ninjas here have Time Stop too.

Time Stop, being a higher level spell, should generally trump Contingency. Dice for it (caster level checks) if argument arises.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 10:04 AM
Time Stop, being a higher level spell, should generally trump Contingency. Dice for it (caster level checks) if argument arises.

Being higher level does not automatically grant a spell superiority. Dominate Monster is 9th level, but a lowly 1st-level spell makes it useless.

Arbitrarious
2009-12-23, 07:54 PM
Being higher level does not automatically grant a spell superiority. Dominate Monster is 9th level, but a lowly 1st-level spell makes it useless.

I know, and I kind of have a problem with that. The protection/circle spells are way too powerful for their level IMO, but something is needed defensively at those levels against otherwise character ending spells. I would just like to see them toned down.

Eldariel
2009-12-23, 08:39 PM
I know, and I kind of have a problem with that. The protection/circle spells are way too powerful for their level IMO, but something is needed defensively at those levels against otherwise character ending spells. I would just like to see them toned down.

Why is it a problem, really? That really pushes the game to the "only your highest level spells are any good against near-equivalent opponents"-thing. I personally much prefer a game where individual spell matters too, not just its overall power.

"Sure, you may be more powerful but since my spell payload is designed to counter yours, I still win."; I feel good planning should be prepared and you shouldn't need highest level magic to have resources to COUNTER that magic. That brings some interest into the whole spell combat system. I mean, having higher level spells is already a huge advantage in that you have an entire array of new ways to threaten your opponents and rape reality; I don't think we need to remove the few ways weaker spells have of protecting you against specific higher level spells.

nekomata2
2009-12-23, 08:56 PM
But, isn't casting contingency to prevent someone from dispelling your contingency pointless? You can only have one contingency up at a time, so chances are the trigger conditions aren't going to be so overly general.


Craft Contigent Spell gets you up to your HD in contingencies.

Emmerask
2009-12-23, 09:40 PM
As time stop is really the caster moving super fast, as said, the contingency triggers but the contingent spell doesn't have time to finish until after the time stop is over because only a nanosecond of real time has passed within that time.

Essentially the contingent spell is triggered during the time stop and happens as soon as the time stop ends.

I would rule it the same way

Arbitrarious
2009-12-23, 10:28 PM
Why is it a problem, really? That really pushes the game to the "only your highest level spells are any good against near-equivalent opponents"-thing. I personally much prefer a game where individual spell matters too, not just its overall power.

"Sure, you may be more powerful but since my spell payload is designed to counter yours, I still win."; I feel good planning should be prepared and you shouldn't need highest level magic to have resources to COUNTER that magic. That brings some interest into the whole spell combat system. I mean, having higher level spells is already a huge advantage in that you have an entire array of new ways to threaten your opponents and rape reality; I don't think we need to remove the few ways weaker spells have of protecting you against specific higher level spells.

But the problem I have is it isn't "good" planning. It's simply the best over all defensive spell at it's level. "Oh you're a summoner? Protection from Evil." "Enchantment Specialist? Protection from Evil." That's immunity to large chunks of 2 schools, not specific spells (like the Magic Jar clause). And that is on top of a +2 bonus to saves and and AC, which is oddly enough fairly balanced since those 2 benefits apply only towards things from the alignment you are actually warded against as opposed to the the rest of the spell.

Yes lower level spells should have use and counters should have a few levels of lifespan before better defenses are needed. 8 levels is too many. Personally I dislike all immunity spells because they actually take away from spell combat since everyone uses them. Death Ward, Mind Blank, Energy Immunity, etc. It basically means every caster fight starts with a targeted dispel which then dissolves into a contingency fest (buffs,safe guards, and contingent spells).

Kantolin
2009-12-23, 10:53 PM
To be absolutely fair insofar as summons are concerned:


Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

So it's not quite an auto-solve, as a wizard summoner can blink at the opponent, shrug, and summon an evil/good/lawful/chaotic enemy instead of whatever he was going to do to bypass it, along with the perhaps chance of spell resistance.

Personally, though, for a PC to deal with, protection from doesn't actually usually bug me very much. As a general statement, it lasts one minute per level and is dispellable. If my and the BBEG's turns are spent trading off protection from evil and dispel magics so I can't mind-control him, then my party has rather beaten him to death (Without any other protections he might have too!).

Now, if every encounter suddenly had everyone having apparently cast protection from evil a couple seconds before combat began, I'd start to question these basically ambushes (Or possibly, take steps to prevent them).

Really, it's minute/level.

...plus, if everyone has it persisted up at all times, then enchanters would functionally stop existing, which means people would stop having it persisted all the time as now it's just a tax on your resources. :P

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:39 AM
If someone approaches within a Time Stop effect, the contingency won't go off because it won't have any time to go off in.

time stop EXPLICITLY does NOT stop time... it "uber hastes" the caster to the point where he perceives the world as standing still, because he is moving so fast.

EDIT: ninja'd too many times to count

Your contingency triggers instantly, thus it triggers in the instant (of accelerated uber haste) that he gets within 20 feet of you.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 07:48 AM
I don't see why my original suggestion wouldn't work. You can counterspell anything, even a contingently prepared spell. If you think the BBEG has a contingency on, use teamwork. Hell, even the cleric and bard can get it on the action.

lord_khaine
2009-12-24, 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma
If someone approaches within a Time Stop effect, the contingency won't go off because it won't have any time to go off in.

time stop EXPLICITLY does NOT stop time... it "uber hastes" the caster to the point where he perceives the world as standing still, because he is moving so fast.

EDIT: ninja'd too many times to count

Your contingency triggers instantly, thus it triggers in the instant (of accelerated uber haste) that he gets within 20 feet of you.


I dont see why this change anything, he is moving so fast time might as well have stoppet.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 08:24 AM
I dont see why this change anything, he is moving so fast time might as well have stoppet.

Because if time is still progressing, there's a chance that the contingent spell has time to react to your trigger, no matter how fast you're going. (Whereas, if time actually stopped, it simply wouldn't/couldn't.)

Emmerask
2009-12-24, 08:32 AM
So it comes all down to dm ruling in the end.
I personally would give ts the benefit of the doubt because its a higher level spellslot other dms might rule otherwise... yes I know the slot has in lots of cases nothing to do with power and there are lots of level 1 or 2 spells that triumph over higher level spells but given that there is a lack of ruling regarding this the spellslot sacrificed would be my justification for time stop "winning".

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 08:37 AM
Here's how I'd rule:

The time stopped wizard 1 approaches wizard 2. Wizard 2's contingency is activated, but the teleport spell doesn't go off because there isn't enough time for it to do anything. Wizard 1 can then do whatever he likes to wizard 2, within the bounds of the rules for time stop.

When time stop ends, wizard 2 immediately teleports away - barring any dimensional anchor effects created by wizard 1.

weenie
2009-12-24, 08:40 AM
When time stop ends, wizard 2 immediately teleports away - barring any dimensional anchor effects created by wizard 1.

What about if wizard 1 casts antimagic field instead? The time stop would end the exact moment the antimagic field would start working, thus the teleport should be suppressed.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 08:43 AM
What about if wizard 1 casts antimagic field instead? The time stop would end the exact moment the antimagic field would start working, thus the teleport should be suppressed.

I'm not even sure you can cast antimagic field while time stopped, but if you can, yeah, that would work too.

But in that case, you can cast antimagic field and then walk within 20 feet anyway - it would suppress the contingency.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 08:57 AM
But in that case, you can cast antimagic field and then walk within 20 feet anyway - it would suppress the contingency.

Only if the contingency is set to less than 20 feet. Contingencies fire just before the effect that would cause them - otherwise, setting a contingency to trigger "if I would die" would be impossible, yet this is specifically allowed in Complete Arcane.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:13 PM
I don't see why my original suggestion wouldn't work. You can counterspell anything, even a contingently prepared spell. If you think the BBEG has a contingency on, use teamwork. Hell, even the cleric and bard can get it on the action.

yes, I think this will work...
one person readies action to counterspell teleport, one person triggers it..
there goes the contingency... and since it is a counterspell, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop it... there is no save even.

EDIT: actually, counterspelling involves reading an action to counterspell whatever spell actually happens. You do not have to decide which spell to counterspell, just be in CS mode.

So a single person with a mount, or other form of locomotion that will move him without requiring him to stop readying an action could do that.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 02:16 PM
yes, I think this will work...
one person readies action to counterspell teleport, one person triggers it..
there goes the contingency... and since it is a counterspell, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop it... there is no save even.

Of course, this requires foreknowledge of exactly which teleportation spell he keyed into the contingency.

Ready an action to counter teleport but he used greater teleport? Sucks.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:18 PM
Of course, this requires foreknowledge of exactly which teleportation spell he keyed into the contingency.

Ready an action to counter teleport but he used greater teleport? Sucks.

actually it doesn't... counterspell is just readying an action to counterspell anything... then when the spell goes off, you make a spellcraft check. If you succeed in it, you identify the spell and may counterspell it with whatever spell you have available...
You can use a higher level spell with the same description or an opposing spell... so greater teleport can be used to counterspell teleport.

if you do not have a suitable spell, you may use dispel magic to counterspell, but it requires a caster level check and actually has a chance of failing.

EDIT:
actually I was wrong before, you may maintain your counterspell on someone and still make move actions...
So a single person readies an action to counterspell on an enemy wizard, then approaches him. if any contingency goes off, he gets a spellcraft check, should he succeed he may counter spell with any specific countering spell and automatically succeed, or with a dispel magic and have a caster level check to succeed.
You one big limit is that you must chose one target to focus your counterspelling on.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm
Counterspells
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

How Counterspells Work
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)

If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

Counterspelling Metamagic Spells
Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered

Specific Exceptions
Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects.

Dispel Magic as a Counterspell
You can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 02:28 PM
...Okay, so it only sucks if you're a wizard and didn't think it would be useful to prepare both.

Or something.

>.>

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 02:34 PM
Of course, this requires foreknowledge of exactly which teleportation spell he keyed into the contingency.

Ready an action to counter teleport but he used greater teleport? Sucks.

Not quite; using the Dispel Magic line, you can attempt to counter anything - they function as universal counterspells.

It's not a surefire bet, but can work in a pinch, and beats having the wrong spell prepared.

The best part is one I mentioned earlier: multiple casters can ready an action to counterspell - that includes the cleric, druid, bard and paladin, should you have dropped abjuration for whatever reason or not prepared the spell - so you can theoretically get a boatload of chances to beat his contingency.

Milskidasith
2009-12-24, 02:35 PM
Wasn't the original plan to have a fighter ready an action to counterspell? That definitely wouldn't work.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:36 PM
Not quite; using the Dispel Magic line, you can attempt to counter anything - they function as universal counterspells.

It's not a surefire bet, but can work in a pinch, and beats having the wrong spell prepared.

you can have both... if you had the wrong spell prepared, chose to use dispel magic. If you had the right one, chose it to dispel...
you are not required to chose until the opponent's spell actually goes off...

with improved counterspell, you may use any spell of the same school, one level higher (or greater) than the target spell.


Wasn't the original plan to have a fighter ready an action to counterspell? That definitely wouldn't work.

it would if he has UMD :P
Although he also needs spellcraft... you must succeed the spellcraft check to identify the spell or be unable to counterspell it... easy for a wizard... hard for a fighter.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 02:36 PM
Wasn't the original plan to have a fighter ready an action to counterspell? That definitely wouldn't work.

Nothing in the rules says you have to be able to cast spells to ready an action to counterspell.

Of course if you can't cast spells it won't do anything...

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 02:40 PM
Wasn't the original plan to have a fighter ready an action to counterspell? That definitely wouldn't work.

The OP mentions two casters. Theoretically, a caster with access to Time Stop should be able to cast Dispel Magic somehow. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:54 PM
3 casters:
first, readies action to counterspell

second, readies action to cast dimensional anchor if "a contingency is triggered" (has a contingency of true strike if he casts a ray spell)

third, casts dimensional anchor on the target (most likely triggering a contingency... which triggers the readied action of the second caster)

the funny thing is, the both contingency and readied actions happen before whatever thing they were readied against... So casting dimension anchor on a person with a contingency to teleport if someone casts dimension anchor on him, his contingency will occur BEFORE the dimensional anchor takes place. But the readied action to cast dimensional anchor if a contingency is triggered occurs before the contingency is triggered...

So what happens?
when the third caster takes his turn, it is "paused". the victim's contingency is about to go off, but he is "paused", then the second caster one tries to cast dimensional anchor which is "paused" by his own contingency which casts true strike on him, then the second caster resumes his turn casting the dimensional anchor (benefiting from true strike), he hits. then the victim resumes his contingency, having it cast teleport, it fails due to dimension anchor, then the third caster has his turn resume, he casts dimensional anchor at the victim. (dosn't matter, he is already anchored).

if for some reason the victim has a non teleport effect, the person who readied action to counterspell gets to counterspell it, at least with a dispel magic...
You can actually have several low level wizards with dispel magic counterspelling at the same time, guaranteeing success.

weenie
2009-12-24, 03:05 PM
Well, my original plan was to build a Swiftblade that could act as a mage-slayer. The character would probably only have access to 6th level spells and a weak CL, so counterspelling wouldn't really be a good option. My plan was to win initiative, use the innervated speed class feature, cast haste, move closer to the targeted caster, cast antimagic field and then ready an action to follow him around. But since time stop doesn't really stop time I was wondering if there was an actual ruling on what happens in this situation, but as it seems it's either impossible, or up to the DM..

Which kinda sucks, because there's no description on what other people can or can't do while someone's time stopped. Immediate actions can be taken whenever, so someone could cast Celerity while you're time stopped. And act before you. During your time stop. Not all that for a 9th level spell now..

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:08 PM
Which kinda sucks, because there's no description on what other people can or can't do while someone's time stopped. Immediate actions can be taken whenever, so someone could cast Celerity while you're time stopped. And act before you. During your time stop. Not all that for a 9th level spell now..

...Casting celerity during someone else's time stop would be amazing.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:10 PM
heh... last game I dusted an enemy with a really good roll on a disintegrate... it cast celerity and hit me with a big spell as it was dying, I saw it was gonna kill me with it, so I cast ruin delver's fortune for temp HP (I rolled well) as it was killing me to stave off death :P

Douglas
2009-12-24, 03:15 PM
Counterspelling doesn't work. In order to counterspell something, you have to do it at the time the spell is cast. That time is when the Contingency and its companion spell are cast, not when the Contingency is triggered. When the Contingency is triggered, its companion spell is brought into effect, not cast.

weenie
2009-12-24, 03:19 PM
...Casting celerity during someone else's time stop would be amazing.

It's completely doable by RAW. You can cast it as an immediate action, thus even during someone else's turn, you take a standard action immediateley and it specifically says, that you interrupt another creature's turn when casting the spell. If people had known about immediate actions when the PhB was being written, I think they would include a ruling that other people cannot take any actions even if they prepared them or if they set them to trigger automatically while you're under the effect of a time stop. I mean, it IS a 9th level spell..

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:26 PM
Counterspelling doesn't work. In order to counterspell something, you have to do it at the time the spell is cast. That time is when the Contingency and its companion spell are cast, not when the Contingency is triggered. When the Contingency is triggered, its companion spell is brought into effect, not cast.

oh snap! he is right!
you cannot counterspell it...
you could still ready action to dispel it, and ready action to cast dimensional anchor at someone...

Sliver
2009-12-24, 03:36 PM
<Stuff>

And that is how you play MtG..

Zeful
2009-12-24, 03:43 PM
It's completely doable by RAW. You can cast it as an immediate action, thus even during someone else's turn, you take a standard action immediateley and it specifically says, that you interrupt another creature's turn when casting the spell. If people had known about immediate actions when the PhB was being written, I think they would include a ruling that other people cannot take any actions even if they prepared them or if they set them to trigger automatically while you're under the effect of a time stop. I mean, it IS a 9th level spell..

Immediate and Swift actions were not part of the original design of 3.5, and so there are no caveats for them in a large number of Core spells (I.e. the ones not raised to immediate or Swift casting times), making them poorly implemented. It would be reasonable (to me at least, Celerity is part of my D&D Discontinuity) to simply change Time Stop to prevent anyone from taking any actions during it's duration. Contingency would still go off, and still be useful, but Celerity would become useless against it,