[SOILER]Mass Effect 2's Intro[/SPOILER]

[Zovc]

For the record, this really will be a spoiler if you don't know about it. If you've been avoiding information about Mass Effect 2's story as a whole, and want to be surprised by things, do not read anything this thread. Whether explicit or not, something may be ruined for you, it's too late for me. :(

This pertains to the beginning of the game, if you haven't heard anything about it and don't want to, again, steer clear.

I hear that Shepherd dies in the beginning of ME2 and is reconstructed. This is essentially the developers' way of letting you redesign your character. You can change your appearance and even your class. I'm curious as to whether or not you can change Shepherd's gender, and how that would affect his/her lover from the previous game.

Thoughts?

[SilverSheriff]

Worst.
Intro.
Ever.

[arguskos]

Worst.
Intro.
Ever.

Amen. :smallannoyed:

[Tavar]

If that's really the intro, I have to agree as well.

[Mewtarthio]

Cite your source or it's nothing but idle speculation.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Cite your source or it's nothing but idle speculation.

That, and what the OP said sounds more so like the option for the people not bringing over a saved game from Mass Effect 1 and who need to design a Shepard. And really...who would do that?

[Zovc]

Worst.
Intro.
Ever.


I may not have done it justice.

[Zovc]

Cite your source or it's nothing but idle speculation.

Since this is absolutely a spoiler, it is spoiled.

One of the many sources. (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/105/1055992p1.html)

[Tavar]

....
No, I think you did it justice.

[thorgrim29]

Well that sucks.... Also the game will have a lot to do to convince me not to kill everyone in the Cerberus complex, possibly with my bare hands.

[Zovc]

Well that sucks.... Also the game will have a lot to do to convince me not to kill everyone in the Cerberus complex, possibly with my bare hands.

Spoiler your stuff, please, Thorgrim. text makes:

text

[SilverSheriff]

If my version of Shepard doesn't get a beard similar to the one my Avatar has I will rage and the game will not be worth-while, because Dave Shepard is going to go all barbarian on Cerberus' ASS.:smallannoyed:

[Zovc]

To be honest, I think everything about Mass Effect's character customization could use improvement, particularly hairstyles.

[SilverSheriff]

To be honest, I think everything about Mass Effect's character customization could use improvement, particularly hairstyles and Beards.

Not a real man without a beard...no siree....:smalltongue:

[Zovc]

Not a real man without a beard...no siree....:smalltongue:

I didn't explore the game's beards when I played it, I didn't have a beard then. I could get a decent goatee, though.

[Emperor Ing]

Worst.
Intro.
Ever.


This can't be happening! What the hell, seriously?

[Optimystik]

I loved the goatee and I love the reset button. But they're going to regret it. :smallamused:

[SilverSheriff]

...His name is Dave Shepard and he 'WILL DESTROY YOU!":smalltongue:

I loved how they yelled that in the first game... every 5 seconds.

Shepard: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
Liara: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
NPC Enemy: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
Wrex: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
5 other NPC Enemies: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
It was absurd, but it was a good formula.


This can't be happening! What the hell, seriously?

I don't know, but Shepard better get something on the lines of 'giant laser canon that cuts through organic and inorganic (i.e. the walls of the goddamn game) matter' as repayment for all of our hard work in the first game which will be all for nothing.
EDIT: and an all-too appropriate 'I am going to brutally massacre all of Cerberus with the stock of my Gun which will strike with force that surpasses Mjöllnir' beard ...

[Matar]

Mass Effect was a great game, and Bioware has been making some great games. This whole "Intro" sounds like utter ****, buuuuut... I have some faith in Bioware.

Of course, I still hate them for this whole DLC bull****. But oh well.

[SilverSheriff]

damn... I just noticed that the Title of this thread says '[SOILER]':smalltongue:

[Thanatos 51-50]

Wait.
What?
So, not only do they give me not a chance, but they destroy the Normandy, and most importantly of all, KILL OFF JOKER?
This will not stand.
Okay, so it will, but the Murder will be bloody. I just hope they left Infiltrators mostly intact.

[Zovc]

Wait.
What?
So, not only do they give me not a chance, but they destroy the Normandy, and most importantly of all, KILL OFF JOKER?
This will not stand.
Okay, so it will, but the Murder will be bloody. I just hope they left Infiltrators mostly intact.

I don't want to spoil anything for you that hasn't been spoiled. ;)

[ninja_penguin]

To deflect a little bit of Thanatos-rage:


Joker's not dead. (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/12/17/hands-on-mass-effect-2-the-first-90-minutes/) (Read to the bottom)

In all honestly, I'm unamused at the whole 'whoops, you're dead' part. However, I also accept it as one of the few plausible reasons for resetting all skills. It's also a shaky way for my Shepards to work with Cerberus, as both paragon and renegade Shepards spent their time curb-stomping them all over the galaxy.

I am happy that you can swap classes if you didn't like what you were playing as before.

[Zovc]

To deflect a little bit of Thanatos-rage:


I was trying to let him be pleasantly surprised.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm actually a bit surprised by a trend I'm noticing, and not in a good way. :smallannoyed: From the comments I've been seeing, it seems most people are more concerned about the fact that their uber-powered Shepards won't be able to be transferred to the new game. Not the choices, but the high level, etc.

:smallannoyed:

That was never a factor for me, the fact the story crossed multiple games and that what I did in the first game would matter a lot in the second or third is what sold me entirely on this series. Am I the only one who knew in their gut that Shepard was going to be de-leveled at game start so, if for no other reason, people would be able to actually put skill points in the new skills they developed? Did it cross no one else's mind that a maxed out Shepard (And they have no reason to raise the level cap) would actually detract from the story?

Maybe it's just me, I'm willing to accept that, but as long as my old Shepard (as a person who made decisions) can be transferred over, then to hell with any stats or anything they might have had in Mass Effect. And as far as 'de-leveling' mechanics go...Dying then being genetically re-constructed by a black-ops faction that you did your damndest to stamp out...

...Actually sounds like a damn good one, especially if it's done right which I expect Bioware to do. Because they make good games. Which everyone seems to forget when they see a single tidbit they don't like.:smallannoyed: This is, of course, my opinion so don't take it to heart but I'm honestly astonished by some of the posters in this thread.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm actually a bit surprised by a trend I'm noticing, and not in a good way. :smallannoyed: From the comments I've been seeing, it seems most people are more concerned about the fact that their uber-powered Shepards won't be able to be transferred to the new game. Not the choices, but the high level, etc.

:smallannoyed:

That was never a factor for me, the fact the story crossed multiple games and that what I did in the first game would matter a lot in the second or third is what sold me entirely on this series. Am I the only one who knew in their gut that Shepard was going to be de-leveled at game start so, if for no other reason, people would be able to actually put skill points in the new skills they developed? Did it cross no one else's mind that a maxed out Shepard (And they have no reason to raise the level cap) would actually detract from the story?

Maybe it's just me, I'm willing to accept that, but as long as my old Shepard (as a person who made decisions) can be transferred over, then to hell with any stats or anything they might have had in Mass Effect. And as far as 'de-leveling' mechanics go...Dying then being genetically re-constructed by a black-ops faction that you did your damndest to stamp out...

...Actually sounds like a damn good one, especially if it's done right which I expect Bioware to do. Because they make good games. Which everyone seems to forget when they see a single tidbit they don't like.:smallannoyed: This is, of course, my opinion so don't take it to heart but I'm honestly astonished by some of the posters in this thread.

Yeah. We ALL knew Shep was going to start at level one in this game. All of us. Bioware has been pretty up-front about that. Every gamer worth their salt knew it was happening.
Not one bit of "OHmygod, what the <expletive>" in this thread is coming from that. It's from:
The whole "Let's Kill Shep off then genetically re-construct him". Thing. Seriously. It's not exactly a common trope, but it's not going to be OUR shep any more. It's a different beast. They're killing Shep, giving us an entirely new PC, and making him a cruel facsimile.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yeah. We ALL knew Shep was going to start at level one in this game. All of us. Bioware has been pretty up-front about that. Every gamer worth their salt knew it was happening.
Not one bit of "OHmygod, what the <expletive>" in this thread is coming from that. It's from:
The whole "Let's Kill Shep off then genetically re-construct him". Thing. Seriously. It's not exactly a common trope, but it's not going to be OUR shep any more. It's a different beast. They're killing Shep, giving us an entirely new PC, and making him a cruel facsimile.

Wouldn't that depend entirely on...

Is the re-construction really Shep or isn't it? Nature vs Nurture comes to mind, though I can't for the life of me think why. The only part that makes me think the above is the 'you can choose a new class bit' that's the only part that even makes me think a little bit like that but then I realize 'I don't have to and don't want to, I can effectively ignore that entirely'.

In any case, it seems I have misunderstood a fair number of complaints (if what Thanatos said is true) and for that I apologize.

[Matar]

The whole "Let's Kill Shep off then genetically re-construct him". Thing. Seriously. It's not exactly a common trope, but it's not going to be OUR shep any more. It's a different beast. They're killing Shep, giving us an entirely new PC, and making him a cruel facsimile.

...Why? It's not like it a brand new body made from a few cells. They took his body and fixed it, leaving some screwed up brain damage and muscle damage... I guess.

I'm sure nothing is going to stop you from acting exactly the same as before. Hell, you might even be able to make yourself LOOK the same... just more scar-y.

Hell, MY Sheppard was a chick who threatened to kill anyone who bugged me, killed them when they did, saved kittens that were trapped in trees, and fulfilled my lesbian fantasies. I'm sure Bioware will allow me to stick with that, so... who cares?

Also, I'm going to quit with the spoilers after this. For gods sake, SPOILERS IS IN THE TITLE! No reason to put things in the spoiler box, unless you have the first or second post. This is silly >_>

[Optimystik]

Also, I'm going to quit with the spoilers after this. For gods sake, SPOILERS IS IN THE TITLE! No reason to put things in the spoiler box, unless you have the first or second post. This is silly >_>

Agreed with this...


I'm actually a bit surprised by a trend I'm noticing, and not in a good way. :smallannoyed: From the comments I've been seeing, it seems most people are more concerned about the fact that their uber-powered Shepards won't be able to be transferred to the new game. Not the choices, but the high level, etc.

:smallannoyed:

That was never a factor for me, the fact the story crossed multiple games and that what I did in the first game would matter a lot in the second or third is what sold me entirely on this series. Am I the only one who knew in their gut that Shepard was going to be de-leveled at game start so, if for no other reason, people would be able to actually put skill points in the new skills they developed? Did it cross no one else's mind that a maxed out Shepard (And they have no reason to raise the level cap) would actually detract from the story?

Maybe it's just me, I'm willing to accept that, but as long as my old Shepard (as a person who made decisions) can be transferred over, then to hell with any stats or anything they might have had in Mass Effect. And as far as 'de-leveling' mechanics go...Dying then being genetically re-constructed by a black-ops faction that you did your damndest to stamp out...

...Actually sounds like a damn good one, especially if it's done right which I expect Bioware to do. Because they make good games. Which everyone seems to forget when they see a single tidbit they don't like.:smallannoyed: This is, of course, my opinion so don't take it to heart but I'm honestly astonished by some of the posters in this thread.

...and also with this.

But if the only complaint is "but it's not really OUR Shepard!" I have to ask what else you guys were really expecting them to do. I mean, I suppose they could take your Shepard (let's call him Rob Shepard), kill him at the start and replace him seamlessly with your long-lost and equally-decorated cousin Bob Shepard, but I kind of preferred the way they've gone about it.

[Dixieboy]

Or they could've kept the old shephard.

[Optimystik]

Or they could've kept the old shephard.

And how would they delevel him? Space Wights?

[ZeroNumerous]

And how would they delevel him? Space Wights?

Amnesia's a tried and true trope.

Skull fracture that tore out his basic motor functions and required him to relearn walking, not to mention the gun and command skills required to be a special ops. He's out on a medical vessel in the Traverse that gets hit by Batarans. They take cripple-Shep back to the Terminus Systems. First mission is getting busted out by Tali and/or Wrex. You then go about the game 'relearning' your old skills.

[smuchmuch]

And how would they delevel him? Space Wights?

Amnesia or any similar brain trauma from the accident ?

Trouble is, that has been used so many time in video game history that "being dying and reconstructed" sound less cheesy in comparison


Is the re-construction really Shep or isn't it? Nature vs Nurture comes to mind, though I can't for the life of me think why. T.

I'd just like to point out that if Bioware sneak up a twist along those line, they regain all my respect.

[Matar]

Amnesia or any similar brain trauma from the accident ?

Trouble is, that has been used so many time in video game history that "being dying and reconstructed" sound less cheesy in comparison

Even though it's the same thing, really >_>


Is the re-construction really Shep or isn't it? Nature vs Nurture comes to mind, though I can't for the life of me think why. T.

But it's his body! It's not a clone body or anything. From what I gather all they did is take his body and... jump start it. Screwing some things up in the process. At least, that's the way I see it so far...

BAH! The game will come out soon, so we shall see. And Optimystik will obviously buy it for me.

[Optimystik]

Amnesia's a tried and true trope.

Skull fracture that tore out his basic motor functions and required him to relearn walking, not to mention the gun and command skills required to be a special ops. He's out on a medical vessel in the Traverse that gets hit by Batarans. They take cripple-Shep back to the Terminus Systems. First mission is getting busted out by Tali and/or Wrex. You then go about the game 'relearning' your old skills.

Relearning basic motor skills - never mind the more advanced skills a Spectre would need - would either take far too long to be practical, or require enough phlebotinum that they might as well rebuild him from DNA.


Even though it's the same thing, really >_>

Also that.


BAH! The game will come out soon, so we shall see. And Optimystik will obviously buy it for me.

Nice try; I will however think of you whenever I pop the disc in. :smalltongue:

[Matar]

Nice try; I will however think of you whenever I pop the disc in.

Just remember to think of me, weeping bitter tears of sorrow in the darkness of my room every time you do so.

Remember to do that.

[Dixieboy]

You could also not have him/her/it delevel.

I remember that working quite well in baldurs gate.

[Matar]

You could also not have him/her/it delevel.

I remember that working quite well in baldurs gate.

Different game. Mass Effect 2 looks to have a very different system then Mass Effect 2. It just wouldn't be possible, like... seriously.

Remember in BG2 how they said we could import our characters to NwN? Didn't happen. Why? Two different systems. It just isn't possible

[Grey Paladin]

As you can change everything else, I wonder if you can change reconstructed Shephard's gender. Seeing one of the old romancable character's response would be hilarious.

[Matar]

As you can change everything else, I wonder if you can change reconstructed Shephard's gender. Seeing one of the old romancable character's response would be hilarious.

By the Goddess I hope not.

This is how I see them handling it. Wonder how right I am.

1: If you create a new character you make them right on the spot before playing. The whole reconstruction happens in the story line anyways and just makes you more scar-y.

2: You load your character from Mass Effect 1. You keep your gender, but remake everything else because of the reconstruction.

3: You load your character and even get to repick your gender.

I -really- hope it's one and two. Three would be... creepy.

[Optimystik]

Remember in BG2 how they said we could import our characters to NwN? Didn't happen. Why? Two different systems. It just isn't possible

You beat me to it again.


Just remember to think of me, weeping bitter tears of sorrow in the darkness of my room every time you do so.

Remember to do that.

You'd be far more likely to locate the game at a store than in the darkness of your room!

Unless of course, your dark room has an internet connection leading to Amazon :smallsmile:

[Dixieboy]

Different game. Mass Effect 2 looks to have a very different system then Mass Effect 2. It just wouldn't be possible, like... seriously.

Remember in BG2 how they said we could import our characters to NwN? Didn't happen. Why? Two different systems. It just isn't possible

Apart from the fact that this is a direct sequel which looks to be completely similar in every single way you mean?

[Optimystik]

Apart from the fact that this is a direct sequel which looks to be completely similar in every single way you mean?

You haven't watched the class or combat previews, have you?

[Matar]

Apart from the fact that this is a direct sequel which looks to be completely similar in every single way you mean?

Translation: I have never watched the trailers.

With the new skills, weapons, biotics, and all that other cool stuff you can call it exactly the same? Even the way weapons are handled is different.

Making two different systems mesh perfectly is freaking -hard- unless they are just a carbon copy of each other. Mass Effect 1&2 are not carbon copys, even if they are sequels.

It's the same issue as BG2 to NwN. It doesn't work. Besides, what are they going to do with people who DON'T have a character to load? Boost them up to level 20? Level 30? Level 50? I don't even remember how high my Shepard was, but she was really freaking up there. Hell, how would they even know how high your Shepard is? Doesn't it seem silly to start a new character and get bumped to some arbitrarily high level instantly?

Let us not forget all the items you have as well. I mean, if we keep all our stats and stuff that wouldn't translate well to the new system, why not the items? Sure, weapons work totally different now but who cares? It's as plausible as keeping our stats and stuff the same.

What you're asking for just won't work. And even if it did it would suck =/.

[Dixieboy]

You haven't watched the class or combat previews, have you?

Gameplay footage, 3-4 trailers.

Looks like the exact same game with a couple of updates, none of them significant enough to pull amnesia on me.
Why not just use a completely different character?
Unless they plan to have your past be significant, in which case wiping uour memory seems like a pretty bad idea.

And @Matar: So you are saying that everyone who completed BG1 did so at the exact same level? :smallconfused:

[Optimystik]

Gameplay footage, 3-4 trailers.

Looks like the exact same game with a couple of updates, none of them significant enough to pull amnesia on me.
Why not just use a completely different character?

If you can look at the ME2 trailers and consider them to be "completely similar in every single way" to ME1, then we aren't likely to see eye-to-eye enough to make any further discussion meaningful.

That, or you're deliberately exaggerating your position to provoke an emotional response, and we all know what that means.


Unless they plan to have your past be significant, in which case wiping uour memory seems like a pretty bad idea.

Your past deeds will be mapped over to the sequel. I'd hate for my Shepard to answer every exclamation of "hey, you're the woman that caught Dr. Saleon/busted up that Red Sand ring/slaughtered that biotic commune!" with "Whuh?"

[Dixieboy]

So (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itHsEbDelbQ) tell me where the huge change is.

Unless you mean different skills, in which case I ask "So what?"
I'm not asking you to be able to carbon copy the same characters stats.
I'm just asking to be the same persona.

And remember, you will be going "whuh", that being my problem.

[Emperor Ing]

...His name is Dave Shepard and he 'WILL DESTROY YOU!":smalltongue:

I loved how they yelled that in the first game... every 5 seconds.

Shepard: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
Liara: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
NPC Enemy: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
Wrex: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
5 other NPC Enemies: "I WILL DESTROY YOU!"
It was absurd, but it was a good formula.

Oh that's nothing, I distinctly remember early in Mass Effect 1 when you were raiding Fist's hideout, the guard dudes in the bar screaming "ENEMY IS EVERYWHERE!!1!" every .1 seconds.

[Matar]

And @Matar: So you are saying that everyone who completed BG1 did so at the exact same level?

It had a built in level cap, giving them a good idea of where to start your levels in the next game.

Unlike Mass effect where you can beat it at level 20, or at level 50+ Huge difference, and two different games.


I'm just asking to be the same persona.

Being able to alter your stats won't change the way you play your character. It's just something added to make the game work, nothing more.

I don't think anything is stopping you from RPing the same way as you did before.

[Optimystik]

Oh that's nothing, I distinctly remember early in Mass Effect 1 when you were raiding Fist's hideout, the guard dudes in the bar screaming "ENEMY IS EVERYWHERE!!1!" every .1 seconds.

HOLD THE LINE!!!!


I'm just asking to be the same persona.

RP it however you like.


And remember, you will be going "whuh", that being my problem.

No you won't; clearly Shepard remembers his exploits in ME1, otherwise situations like Tali's hearing and running into Garrus would be very different.

"Have we met?"

[Dixieboy]

I don't think anything is stopping you from RPing the same way as you did before.

Making the Amnesia a completely different kind of pointless. :smallamused:

[Dixieboy]

No you won't; clearly Shepard remembers his exploits in ME1, otherwise situations like Tali's hearing and running into Garrus would be very different.

"Have we met?"If he does remember his exploits then it's a cheap trick, but one I can cope with.

[Optimystik]

Making the Amnesia a completely different kind of pointless. :smallamused:

There is no amnesia. You haven't forgotten your skills, you're just not capable of utilizing them until you get used to your new body.

This actually makes more sense than the Alliance's most decorated soldier being level 1, as in the first game.

[Matar]

Making the Amnesia a completely different kind of pointless.

Who ever said it was amnesia? He just isn't used to his new body. I also wouldn't be surprised if things were a bit blury as well, but we have to play the game to find out.

[Dixieboy]

There is no amnesia. You haven't forgotten your skills, you're just not capable of utilizing them until you get used to your new body.

This actually makes more sense than the Alliance's most decorated soldier being level 1, as in the first game.
So my soldier lost his shooting skill because his arms are different? :smallannoyed:

My engineer doesn't know how to use his omni tool because of his new fingers?

The biotics i get though.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm in the "You could have just not de-leveled Shep and instead leveled up the rest of the Galaxy" camp, and not even bat an eye toward the loss of skills, as it's all part of the big ol' Bag of Spilling we expected.
OH! Look! Infiltrator has an Invisibility spell nao!

[Philistine]

And @Matar: So you are saying that everyone who completed BG1 did so at the exact same level? :smallconfused:
Pretty much, yeah. There were a couple of mechanical reasons for that. First and foremost was the rather low level cap, which could easily be reached by around 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the game even with a full party of six characters (in that game XP was divided rather than shared; smaller parties hit max level even earlier). Second was the non-scaling nature of enemies: the final showdown with Sarevok was a pain even for parties that had reached the game's max level, but if you somehow managed to reach that point without reaching the cap, you'd have exactly the same fight on your hands - and an enemy that was tough at level 8 might very well be unbeatable at level 5. Last but not least, the BG2 Character Importer would automatically start you at the XP cap if you wanted to bring over a BG1 character who hadn't finished the first game (or if you imported a character after you'd used a hack to remove the XP cap from BG1).


So my soldier lost his shooting skill because his arms are different? :smallannoyed:

My engineer doesn't know how to use his omni tool because of his new fingers?

The biotics i get though.
It's called muscle memory, and it's gone, gone, gone.
___________

If they didn't de-level Shepard, then either there would be little to no leveling up in the second and third games, or skill choices wouldn't matter, because every Shepard of a given class would end up with all available skills maxed anyway. It's as if there was a disconnect between the writers, who projected ME as a trilogy from the start, and the designers, who built a skill/leveling system that wasn't really suitable for taking a character through more than one game.

[thorgrim29]

I can buy that they reconstructed his body, but if you can change the gender it would be pretty odd (tough I'd probably do it to have Mrs Hale voice my space jesus first character).

-Shep: Uh, what, I'm not dead?

-Mad Scientist: No, Cerberus rebuilt you because we need your help even tough you spent half of your downtime during the hunt for Saren killing our operatives

-Shep: What? Nice of you I guess, but I feel weird

Mad scientist: Yeah, we made you a girl

-Shep: WTF???

-Mad scientist: Yeah, it was more fun that way

[Optimystik]

So my soldier lost his shooting skill because his arms are different? :smallannoyed:

My engineer doesn't know how to use his omni tool because of his new fingers?

The biotics i get though.

How do you "get biotics" but not the other things? Your brain controls your ability to use all three, doesn't it?

Biotics may be a more direct application of brain power, but you're routing all three abilities through the same organ.


I can buy that they reconstructed his body, but if you can change the gender it would be pretty odd (tough I'd probably do it to have Mrs Hale voice my space jesus first character).

Take it from me - Renegade psycho lesbian space bitch Jennifer Hale is oodles more fun. :smallbiggrin:

[thorgrim29]

Oh I know, just replace lesbian with Bi and you've got my second character, only non psychotic thing about her was that she was very loyal to the army and her crew.

[Grumman]

In my opinion, this sucks. I gave them **** for the fake Obsidian ending of the first game, and now it looks like they've decided to use an Obsidian beginning for the next one.

I would far rather that they had left the character at the same level and expanded the selection of abilities (especially if it meant you could use the other classes abilities you've unlocked without starting a new character), or that they had simply deleveled the character without explanation. Better to just potentially screw up the gameplay than to screw up both the gameplay and the story.

[chiasaur11]

I still think the most important thing is that this game has Adam Baldwin.

All other concerns? Secondary.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I still think the most important thing is that this game has Adam Baldwin.

That's Jayne, right?
Jayne is in ME2?

[chiasaur11]

That's Jayne, right?
Jayne is in ME2?

Yes.

It's also NSA agent John Casey.

(Also, Yvonne Strahovsk. 2 major Chuck actors!)

[Optimystik]

I still think the most important thing is that this game has Adam Baldwin.

All other concerns? Secondary.

I expressed similar sentiment for Carrie-Ann Moss, though of course the returns of Seth Green and Brandon Keener made my decision even easier.

(She's Trinity, for those not in the know.)

[Philistine]

In my opinion, this sucks. I gave them **** for the fake Obsidian ending of the first game, and now it looks like they've decided to use an Obsidian beginning for the next one.
What does that even mean?


I would far rather that they had left the character at the same level and expanded the selection of abilities (especially if it meant you could use the other classes abilities you've unlocked without starting a new character), or that they had simply deleveled the character without explanation. Better to just potentially screw up the gameplay than to screw up both the gameplay and the story.
The first would have definitely, not just potentially, screwed up gameplay. Even if the skill system from the first game could have been reused - which it couldn't, because by level 50 or so all characters of a given class were already starting to converge due to the lack of choices available - there's also the wide gap between people who finished the game in the 25-35 level range and those who made it all the way to 60. A gap which would inevitably be even wider by the end of the second game, I'd like to point out. The big reset button was needed in order for the designers to have any hope of delivering a coherent experience.

The second... I suspect that you may be nearly the only person in the world who feels that way. At any rate, in a few weeks you can see for yourself how it actually plays out; it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to get all up in arms about how BioWare is "ruining" the series when you've only heard secondhand reports of what they're doing in the new game.

[Grumman]

What does that even mean?
It means that from my experience with Obsidian (KotOR 2, NWN 2), they've got a habit of doing annoying things to your character to wipe the slate clean between games. A "BTW, you die" intro is exactly what I'd expect of them.

[Irbis]

You could also not have him/her/it delevel.

I remember that working quite well in baldurs gate.

And just where the group of enemies that can punch tanks to pieces (needed to balance PC with more than 50+ levels) has been hiding until now? :smallconfused:

And why they run small time rackets, are all soldiers you now encounter, and populate every planet you visit?

[Tavar]

It means that from my experience with Obsidian (KotOR 2, NWN 2), they've got a habit of doing annoying things to your character to wipe the slate clean between games. A "BTW, you die" intro is exactly what I'd expect of them.

Um...in NWN 2, at least for the original game and it's expansion, don't you have the option to play the same character, and if you do, the character has all the levels that they had?

[Warpfire]

I'm fine with this, for now. At least Shepard's still the same character, overall.

My only problem is farther ahead. What happens when they have to do something similar for Mass Effect 3? A handwaved deleveling once isn't going to feel that contrived, but the second time around its going to start feeling like Metroid when you lose all your powerups at the beginning of the game. Except that Metroid is just a platformer and Mass Effect is supposedly an immersive science fiction epic.

[Optimystik]

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. You might not even control Shepard in ME3, given that
He might not live through ME2.

[Callos_DeTerran]

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. You might not even control Shepard in ME3, given that
He might not live through ME2.

That depends on the player actually, I forget which interview I saw it in but one of the game designer guys mentioned that it's very possible for Shepard to die at the end of Mass Effect 2. If you are uncomfortable with being deleveled in some fashion again, then I'd suggest going that route actually. Cause they also said things are going to diverge some each other with Mass Effect 3 considering it's the last of the trilogy so it doesn't all have to tie together in the end like Mass Effect 1 & 2.

[Ikialev]

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. You might not even control Shepard in ME3, given that
He might not live through ME2.
They will resurrect him again.

[Lord Iames Osari]

They will resurrect him again.

Actually, they've said that if your Shepard dies in ME2, you'll still play as a Shepard in ME3... you just won't be able to import the ME2 character that died.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Actually, they've said that if your Shepard dies in ME2, you'll still play as a Shepard in ME3... you just won't be able to import the ME2 character that died.

Darn.
I was hoping to be able to play a Quarian in ME3.
Also:
Speculation from one of the videos out on Youtube. Jayne is a Quarian Heavy Weapons Guy. <3 Quarians!

[Kish]

Um...in NWN 2, at least for the original game and it's expansion, don't you have the option to play the same character, and if you do, the character has all the levels that they had?
Yes. It's just the people who joined you--including your possible romance partner--who are casually and brutally killed off between the game and the expansion.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Didn't Saints Row 2 have a beginning similar to this premise (Hero gets nearly blown up and gets reconstructive surgery, allowing you to either retain your face from the first game or allowing you to make a completely new one, just in case you didn't play the first game)?

I personally can't judge until I play the game myself, and before I do that I'm gonna play the first one so I'm all ready for it. I think it's an interesting idea though, and it certainly would answer those lingering questions as to why Shepard would work WITH Cerberus after having disrupted their operations in the first game.

[NeoVid]

Well, what do you know... I couldn't imagine why Shep would work with Cerberus until now.

Though if you've got the Sole Survivor origin, you'd better be able to get your revenge for the Akuze Massacre.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Well, what do you know... I couldn't imagine why Shep would work with Cerberus until now.

Though if you've got the Sole Survivor origin, you'd better be able to get your revenge for the Akuze Massacre.

Thanatos Shepard, Hero of the Galaxy, Slayer of Sovereign, Badass Sniper Extraordinaire has the War Hero origin, thankyouverymuch.
And is also very very pro-Alien, despite having the Earthborn background.
I look forward to interesting dialogue choices.

[Emperor Ing]

I still wanna play as a Turian :smallfrown:

[Serenity]

All in all, this seems to be yet another indication that Mass Effect 2 is taking yet another turn for the GRIMDARK. It's not as off-putting as the fact that the well-written and charming crew has apparently been replaced by Jerkasses and Psychos for Hire, but it's not welcome news, either. No Sheperd I would ever play would ever think about working for Cerberus. Part of the charm of the original Mass Effect was that, whatever you did, you were a hero. Everything I've heard about ME2 shows that they're skewing heavily to Renegade, and right on past...

[Nano]

It means that from my experience with Obsidian (KotOR 2, NWN 2), they've got a habit of doing annoying things to your character to wipe the slate clean between games. A "BTW, you die" intro is exactly what I'd expect of them.

The main character isn't the same person between KotOR 1 and 2, so that doesn't even make sense.

[cha0s4a11]

One thing I'm wondering about is if any other characters from your party in ME1 are playable (Tali, Garrus?) then why exactly do they get leveled down as well?

Also, I wonder how the game handles certain "out there" possible playthroughs of the first game.

For example:

It is quite possible to skip recruiting Garrus entirely during the first game. Just follow up on your leads by talking to Wrex and when Garrus tries to join your group, tell him to get lost. He will then just stand around in C-Sec, waiting for you to show up and invite him on board.

Fun fact:

If you skip getting Garrus, and leave getting Liara until after Veldime, it becomes impossible for Wrex to die on Veldime. Apparently some programmer figured that no matter how much you mess with the games intended order of events, nobody deserved having to go through the research complex with just Tali for backup. :smallbiggrin: Either that or there's some hardcoding that says that after a certain point early on, when you aren't on Normandy you have to have three members in your group. :smallcool:

[Emperor Ing]

But...Tali's one of the most powerful party members in the game! Why wouldn't I want her backing me up?

[Illieas]

I am fine with it. It is as people say a needed change. they need a reset button other wise everyone is a lvl 60 death machine. there just so many ways to reset. especialy cause the skill system is very different.

the other change was the addition of "ammo" to weapons. it been slightly ret con in that it switches bullets to heat sinks. in that heat sink are now used have a limit on how many shots the gun can fire.

[Emperor Ing]

It would make sense for the reset if, say, everyone was just chillin' for a long time and lost some of their old skillz due to stagnation.

[Starbuck_II]

That was the idea behind Suikedun. In that RPG, people in sequel that joined had less levels than before (Victor comes to mind) because time without fighting alot weakens you.

So it fits my suspension of disbelief easy.

[d12]

All in all, this seems to be yet another indication that Mass Effect 2 is taking yet another turn for the GRIMDARK. It's not as off-putting as the fact that the well-written and charming crew has apparently been replaced by Jerkasses and Psychos for Hire, but it's not welcome news, either. No Sheperd I would ever play would ever think about working for Cerberus. Part of the charm of the original Mass Effect was that, whatever you did, you were a hero. Everything I've heard about ME2 shows that they're skewing heavily to Renegade, and right on past...

I suppose I half-agree with that general sentiment. I'm not really opposed to grimdark per se, but as of right now I'm not very keen on dumping most of the squad members and replacing them with what appear to be nutcases. Hell, I generally prefer renegade, and I'm not sure even that kind of Shepard would want to hang around people like that. Renegade is "just gets things done," not "psychotic." And psychos also have the unfortunate property of sometimes not being very reliable, which I would think would be important for a quasi-suicide mission. The main question I have re: Cerberus is mostly just, well, do they know who it was who wrecked up their bases a couple years ago? Relations between them and Shepard would seem a little strained if that's the case.

But I have a lot of reservations about ME2 that I really shouldn't have, given how much I love the first game. It's just so many things that add up, like the switch to using ammunition, for instance. For some reason it just irritates me to no end. Now, some people may say "well yeah now you can't just bullet-hose, n00b", but that's not really so much the issue, because as far as I can tell, if you had any idea what you were doing you generally didn't do that anyway (but it's always nice to impugn the skills of people who disagree with you I guess :smalltongue:). And then I once read something like "for the most part you don't really need to worry about running out of ammo; clips will be plentiful", which just raises the question: then what's the point of even switching the systems out?? (I want to make a joke about Halo and/or its fans, but that kind of thing tends to get poop thrown at you on the ME forums, so maybe I'll refrain here. :smalltongue: But anyway, were the focus groups so composed of complete idiots that they didn't understand the concept of guns that you didn't need to feed fresh clips into every few seconds? Disclaimer: I don't have anything against shooters, other than the fact that I tend to be fairly bad at them. In Halo's case, the camera is a bit too "slippery", for lack of a better word, for me, but that's a different discussion) And you mean to tell me that, say, random office buildings are typically heavily populated with these ammo clips? And that's not even getting into the issue of just how hard the entire thing fails thermodynamics. You also mean to tell me that if I fire my weapon to the point that it overheats and then set it on a counter for a few centuries, when my descendants happen by the old man's assault rifle it's still going to be rocket-hot? I--I mean...what?? Sure it's just a game and all, but I thought this was sci-fi, and furthermore, I thought sci-fi at least tried to maintain the pretense (flimsy though it may get) of believability. The whole thing just seems supremely lazy for a game which is a direct sequel to another game which had such an extensive glossary detailing how the universe works.

Then there's the don't-get-shot-for-a-couple-seconds-and-you're-good-to-go regenerating health system, which--they're making it so hard to not make Halo jokes. :smalltongue: And on top of that is that big-poorly-made-veins-pop-up-when-your-health-is-getting-low thing, which I have a very hard time believing is so super-awesome that the devs figured an option to turn it off would not only not be necessary, but detrimental to the overall experience. Whatever happened to health bars? Those seem to work well enough. Sure, the screen in ME1 gets redder and there's some kind of pulse noise when you get really low on health, but at least that isn't actively hideous. Or is this another "ooo super edgy" change for the sake of looking all grimdark?

Then we get to the scars issue. Yes, I know, you can get rid of them, but that's not the point. You mean to tell me that appearance changes based on your actions? What? I mean...what?? This is Mass Effect, not Fable. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a story where a mass murderer (for instance) is arrested and when the media goes around talking to their neighbors they all say, "Yeah, I figured he'd be the type--I mean, just look at him." But yes, you can get rid of them. Bravo, Bioware. You didn't completely f**k it up.

Oh, and lastly, did I read that right about keeping track of the ship's fuel/charge gauge? Huh? Is this an RPG/Shooter hybrid or a logistics simulation?

One of my favorite theories is that many of these changes that I find myself having issues with are the work of EA's tentacles vigorously violating the series. I don't know how true that is, but I like the theory, what with EA being The Beast and everything.

Now, I'm still willing to grant the possibility that ME2 will be a good game (ya know, by accident :smalltongue:), but I haven't considered it "must buy" for quite a while, which really shouldn't happen. Maybe I'm being petty. Maybe I'm being a grognard. But from what I've seen so far, just about the only recognizable aspects of ME2 are the name and the fact that Shepard is still involved in some way. As it stands, I'm probably going to wait until I can see a couple lets plays before making my decision about whether to get the game, which, again, seems like it really shouldn't be necessary given how much I love the first game (just ask my friend--I almost never shut up about it and I'm certain he's quite sick of hearing about it by now).

[Grumman]

The main character isn't the same person between KotOR 1 and 2, so that doesn't even make sense.
That's the problem. They had the PC from the first game just decide to walk out the metaphorical airlock to make room for the new PC. This is the sort of thing that you'd get a choice about if it was during the actual game. It's like playing a pen and paper RPG and coming back from dinner to find that someone else was playing your character while you were away, and got killed doing something out of character.

[cha0s4a11]

But I have a lot of reservations about ME2 that I really shouldn't have, given how much I love the first game. It's just so many things that add up, like the switch to using ammunition, for instance. For some reason it just irritates me to no end. Now, some people may say "well yeah now you can't just bullet-hose, n00b", but that's not really so much the issue, because as far as I can tell, if you had any idea what you were doing you generally didn't do that anyway (but it's always nice to impugn the skills of people who disagree with you I guess :smalltongue:). And then I once read something like "for the most part you don't really need to worry about running out of ammo; clips will be plentiful", which just raises the question: then what's the point of even switching the systems out??


I think the reason for switching out the heating/ammo systems was to accomodate the new "fire once for big boom" type of heavy weaponry in the game. Really, with some weapons like that, there really does need to be a hard limit to how many times you can fire.


And you mean to tell me that, say, random office buildings are typically heavily populated with these ammo clips? And that's not even getting into the issue of just how hard the entire thing fails thermodynamics. You also mean to tell me that if I fire my weapon to the point that it overheats and then set it on a counter for a few centuries, when my descendants happen by the old man's assault rifle it's still going to be rocket-hot?

No, it probably will have cooled down well before then, but cooled down != working.

If you need a demonstration of this, then open up your computer, remove the CPU heatsink, go into bios, disable all of the heat throttling options, turn up the volts to max, set the computer to do insanely high levels of overclocking, save, go into windows, and assuming that the cpu hasn't liquified by this point, start up several copies of the most CPU intensive game you have on your machine. Then turn it off and let it cool down.


And on top of that is that big-poorly-made-veins-pop-up-when-your-health-is-getting-low thing, which I have a very hard time believing is so super-awesome that the devs figured an option to turn it off would not only not be necessary, but detrimental to the overall experience. Whatever happened to health bars? Those seem to work well enough. Sure, the screen in ME1 gets redder and there's some kind of pulse noise when you get really low on health, but at least that isn't actively hideous.

Oh noes! Don't take away the sense of my character being perfectly A-OK and having no drawbacks whatsoever to having been repeatedly shot until the last little bit of his life vanishes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalExistenceFailure).

Granted, I would prefer something more along the lines of Deus Ex's being shot in the arms/legs affects your aiming/mobility but its been a decade and I really don't see anyone really following up on that one.


Then we get to the scars issue. Yes, I know, you can get rid of them, but that's not the point. You mean to tell me that appearance changes based on your actions? What? I mean...what?? This is Mass Effect, not Fable. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a story where a mass murderer (for instance) is arrested and when the media goes around talking to their neighbors they all say, "Yeah, I figured he'd be the type--I mean, just look at him." But yes, you can get rid of them. Bravo, Bioware. You didn't completely f**k it up.


Getting nearly blown up, dying, and being brought back actually affects your cosmetic appearence? Oh noes!!


Oh, and lastly, did I read that right about keeping track of the ship's fuel/charge gauge? Huh? Is this an RPG/Shooter hybrid or a logistics simulation?


Making decisions about stuff, weighing the benefits and tradeoffs, in an RPG? Heresy!

[Philistine]

That's the problem. They had the PC from the first game just decide to walk out the metaphorical airlock to make room for the new PC. This is the sort of thing that you'd get a choice about if it was during the actual game. It's like playing a pen and paper RPG and coming back from dinner to find that someone else was playing your character while you were away, and got killed doing something out of character.

Actually, no. KotOR was a finished campaign; it was done. Especially if you went DS: Gee, congratulations, Emperor Revan! You're now the master of ~ half the known universe, and well on the way to conquering the rest! But Revan's adventuring days are well and truly over at that point - you can't afford to go haring off into the hither and yon with a handful of companions aboard a small starship, because you have a galaxy to rule. And even if you could break free (and if you could trust your underlings, who are Sith and thus untrustworthy by definition, to mind the store while you're out), by Level 20 Revan is as a God among Men: what exactly is out there to challenge you? Yeah, that's right. Bugger all.

It's not "like coming back from dinner to find your character dead." Not at all. It is "like sitting down at the gaming table on a new night, having wrapped up a long-running campaign in the previous session. But when the DM announces that he wants to run a new low-level campaign in the same setting, your response is to bellyache that you can't play your old max-level demigod in the new level-one game."

[d12]

I think the reason for switching out the heating/ammo systems was to accomodate the new "fire once for big boom" type of heavy weaponry in the game. Really, with some weapons like that, there really does need to be a hard limit to how many times you can fire.

I never said the system didn't make sense for things like rocket launchers. That's completely reasonable. Your store of grenades in ME1 was limited, and that made sense (how much sense it made to only be able to hold 5 nades/gels unless you buy upgrades and just what form those upgrades took is possibly more debatable).


No, it probably will have cooled down well before then, but cooled down != working.

If you need a demonstration of this, then open up your computer, remove the CPU heatsink, go into bios, disable all of the heat throttling options, turn up the volts to max, set the computer to do insanely high levels of overclocking, save, go into windows, and assuming that the cpu hasn't liquified by this point, start up several copies of the most CPU intensive game you have on your machine. Then turn it off and let it cool down.

If overheating just blew the thing out then changing heat sinks wouldn't do a lot of good. From what I gather, the weapon just stops firing after exceeding a certain temperature, something then happens to reduce the temperature, and it can then resume firing. For your analogy to work, you would need to essentially 'disable the safety protocols' so that you could continue firing even after it was no longer safe to do so and damaging it. I was talking about any run of the mill overheating as a result of firing, just without bothering to change out the clip. Per the mechanics as I understand them, it would essentially never cool down.


Oh noes! Don't take away the sense of my character being perfectly A-OK and having no drawbacks whatsoever to having been repeatedly shot until the last little bit of his life vanishes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalExistenceFailure).

I never said anything about any kind of feedback concerning "your character isn't doing very well at the moment" being bad in itself. I said that the veins were ugly. I didn't mind the screen-takes-a-red-tint-and-you-hear-your-pulse effect, and actually would much rather just have that return. In fact, it has been useful for helping notify me when I need to duck behind some cover and pop a medi-gel in the heat of battle (and actually, there's a funny death story involving that mechanic, but that's for another post).


Granted, I would prefer something more along the lines of Deus Ex's being shot in the arms/legs affects your aiming/mobility but its been a decade and I really don't see anyone really following up on that one.

Sounds like something I would be really bad/unlucky at. :smallbiggrin: Reminds me of Spoony's lets play of SWAT 4, actually. "Oh no, not stairs, my foot is owie."


Getting nearly blown up, dying, and being brought back actually affects your cosmetic appearence? Oh noes!!

I never said anything about the concept of being reconstituted after being horribly mangled resulting in changes in your appearance being bad, unreasonable, or stupid in itself. I said that the post-reconstruction paragon/renegade actions you take affecting your appearance is stupid. Did you actually read my post or not? :smallconfused:


Making decisions about stuff, weighing the benefits and tradeoffs, in an RPG? Heresy!

Now granted I never heard much about the whole ship fuel/charge thing, but it did strike me as being kind of an unusual "feature" to add. If they wanted to use that as some kind of justification for not being able to go absolutely anywhere from the start (like how you couldn't do a couple side missions until after Noveria, for instance), then...I'm...still not really sure what I think about it. It seems enough to just say "there was nothing to indicate these systems were noteworthy before finding X bit of information about them." And really, decisions, cost/benefit analysis, and such in an RPG are good to be sure, but in the context of worrying about running out of gas? Seems like choices and consequences could be implemented better. But as I said, I never really heard a lot of details about it.

[cha0s4a11]

If overheating just blew the thing out then changing heat sinks wouldn't do a lot of good. From what I gather, the weapon just stops firing after exceeding a certain temperature, something then happens to reduce the temperature, and it can then resume firing. For your analogy to work, you would need to essentially 'disable the safety protocols' so that you could continue firing even after it was no longer safe to do so and damaging it. I was talking about any run of the mill overheating as a result of firing, just without bothering to change out the clip. Per the mechanics as I understand them, it would essentially never cool down.

So you could use a given heat sink indefinitely for a given amount of heat reduction and thus a given amount of firepower, or you can use that same heat sink for effectively more heat reduction and thus more firepower with the drawback being that the heat sink will only last for a given amount of heat generated (and thus a given number of boosted shots) before melting into something that really isn't optimized for cooling anything down.

Given the apparent abundance of criminals and psychopaths in the area of space where Mass Effect 2 takes place, it wouldn't really surprise me that there would be a good market for guns that trade firepower for melted heat sinks, especially if heat sinks are cheap and common (as it sounds like they are). Then, all the ammo counter is based on how many times you can fire a given gun before you need to switch out the sink or risk the possibility of heatsink meltdown.

That's my guess about the whole thing, anyway.


I never said anything about the concept of being reconstituted after being horribly mangled resulting in changes in your appearance being bad, unreasonable, or stupid in itself. I said that the post-reconstruction paragon/renegade actions you take affecting your appearance is stupid. Did you actually read my post or not? :smallconfused:

If it makes sense that it would occur (If you get repeatedly shot somewhere, it wouldn't be surprising to have a scar there) then why object to it happening?


Now granted I never heard much about the whole ship fuel/charge thing, but it did strike me as being kind of an unusual "feature" to add. If they wanted to use that as some kind of justification for not being able to go absolutely anywhere from the start (like how you couldn't do a couple side missions until after Noveria, for instance), then...I'm...still not really sure what I think about it. It seems enough to just say "there was nothing to indicate these systems were noteworthy before finding X bit of information about them." And really, decisions, cost/benefit analysis, and such in an RPG are good to be sure, but in the context of worrying about running out of gas? Seems like choices and consequences could be implemented better. But as I said, I never really heard a lot of details about it.

One of the few things I didn't like about the first game was that it always seemed like there was no real sense of time advancing forward to doomsday. (i.e. "No need to worry about rescuing Liara for now, she'll hold for another dozen sidequests or so." or "Saren is trying to open up a gateway to let the cosmic horrors back into our galaxy! We must stop him! ....right after I finish searching all the monkeys for the data recorder and do a few other random sidequests")

One of my suggestions in one of the many Suggestions for ME2 threads in the Bioware forums was to try to fix that by making things become increasingly bad at places that you keep putting off going to. For example, if you wait to rescue Liara for the last mission, she really shouldn't be alive to greet you given that she's been stuck in that stasis bubble for what probably amounts to weeks or months with the Geth trying to break in for that same amount of time.

In a similar vein, what I hope ends up happening with the limited fuel supply is that:

1) The less fuel you have on hand at the end, the harder the endgame will be and the more likely it is that your mission turns out to be a suicide mission.
2) You can get more fuel from various sources, but the more fuel you buy/acquire the harder it is to get, the less reputable (i.e. more criminal/psychopathic) the people who you have to deal with to get the fuel become and the more hoops you have to go through to get your fuel.
3) It becomes impractical to play more than say, 1/2-3/4 of the sidequests in a given playthrough. You would actually have to choose which missions are important as opposed to the standard "just do all of them" approach that works in ME1.

...but then, that's just me. :smallbiggrin:

[Revlid]

If it makes sense that it would occur (If you get repeatedly shot somewhere, it wouldn't be surprising to have a scar there) then why object to it happening?
((I'm not the one being replied to here))
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind the idea of story-based physical changes - a badly-chosen dialogue option gives you a knife-scar across the face, choosing to blow up rather than disarm a bomb gives you burn marks, a rabid xeno-beast takes your hand, forcing you to use a wavy pistol and limited health until you can return to the med-bay and get a cloned replacement/geth transplant/space-hook.

That I'm fine with.

Morality-based physical changes, on the other hand, sounds entirely too close to Fable for my liking. Five minutes in you either have horns or a halo.

[d12]

So you could use a given heat sink indefinitely for a given amount of heat reduction and thus a given amount of firepower, or you can use that same heat sink for effectively more heat reduction and thus more firepower with the drawback being that the heat sink will only last for a given amount of heat generated (and thus a given number of boosted shots) before melting into something that really isn't optimized for cooling anything down.

Given the apparent abundance of criminals and psychopaths in the area of space where Mass Effect 2 takes place, it wouldn't really surprise me that there would be a good market for guns that trade firepower for melted heat sinks, especially if heat sinks are cheap and common (as it sounds like they are). Then, all the ammo counter is based on how many times you can fire a given gun before you need to switch out the sink or risk the possibility of heatsink meltdown.

That's my guess about the whole thing, anyway.

I'm honestly not quite sure what you're trying to say, but it would probably be a bad idea to have molten slag in the chamber. If you were to fire to that point, it was probably a hell of a battle wherein you ran out of clips and had to override the firing interrupt that normally prevents weapon discharge after a certain temperature. Or the interrupt just failed and you're now dangerously close to weapon failure without knowing it, but that's less dramatic probably. The main thing I was getting at is that the ME2 system seems to neglect the fact that hot things will cool down eventually, and that irritates me. The speed with which ME1 weapons cooled suggests some kind of active vent system. Problem with that of course being that it wouldn't really work in vacuum environments, so you'd need something like a radiator to speed up the process of radiating heat off. Course, maybe for the purposes of a game it's enough to just say "yeah, it cools off, but that takes time, so try not to just spray constantly." (Disclaimer: I'm not a physicist or expert in thermodynamics--I do know that hot things cool off though) Or just, ya know, call the new system ammunition, cuz that's what it is.

I would have preferred if the heatsink system was added on top of the cooldown from ME1. Maybe rebalance things so that low grade weapons are a little more forgiving (that's where the bulk of the overheats I do experience happen) and you no longer have infinite bullet-hose at the high levels and add heatsinks as a somewhat uncommon resource for "oh crap, but that thing's still not dead" purposes. Being uncommon you'd probably want to use them sparingly, and it might be necessary to increase overheat-to-ready-to-fire time as well. Not sure about using them as an emergency escape out of sabotage attacks though. But you get the idea.


If it makes sense that it would occur (If you get repeatedly shot somewhere, it wouldn't be surprising to have a scar there) then why object to it happening?


((I'm not the one being replied to here))
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind the idea of story-based physical changes - a badly-chosen dialogue option gives you a knife-scar across the face, choosing to blow up rather than disarm a bomb gives you burn marks, a rabid xeno-beast takes your hand, forcing you to use a wavy pistol and limited health until you can return to the med-bay and get a cloned replacement/geth transplant/space-hook.

That I'm fine with.

Morality-based physical changes, on the other hand, sounds entirely too close to Fable for my liking. Five minutes in you either have horns or a halo.

^Pretty much what that guy said.

If there's some kind of "no, I'm going to attempt to disarm this bomb instead of tossing it out the window where it could still possibly hurt people" (*shrug* I dunno :smalltongue:) scenario and through some series of events it ends up blowing anyway and managing to get through whatever protection you were using at the time (maybe you're a guest member of the bomb squad :smallbiggrin:) and you end up with some kind of scars that would be acceptable. It was something you chose to do which had risks, and the consequences presented for that decision (possibly resulting from failure in some way..I dunno, maybe you don't get the minigame right or something, if they want to give you a chance to actually disarm it) make sense. Sufficiently badass scenarios could be a kind of "these scars are trophies/badges of honor/etc" thing.

Choosing "no, too many people have died here because of you--you don't get to live" *BAM* in a conversation and then having one of your squadmates say "hey, your scars look a little deeper now" is nonsensical. That may work for something like Fable, but it just doesn't make sense in Mass Effect.


One of the few things I didn't like about the first game was that it always seemed like there was no real sense of time advancing forward to doomsday. (i.e. "No need to worry about rescuing Liara for now, she'll hold for another dozen sidequests or so." or "Saren is trying to open up a gateway to let the cosmic horrors back into our galaxy! We must stop him! ....right after I finish searching all the monkeys for the data recorder and do a few other random sidequests")

I can kind of see that. Not really sure my desire for reasonable timelines trumps my desire to explore though. :smallsmile: I'm still meaning to do a run where I rescue Liara after doing the other planets, since I'm told she thinks you're a hunger-induced hallucination if you wait that long. :smallbiggrin:

And now that you mention timelines, maybe you or someone else can help me with something. Ok, if you talk to Ashley enough on the Normandy (not sure if you need to be mShep for it or not) she'll mention that it's Armistice Day (I think she specifically says that it is, but I'm not completely certain..someone remember for sure?) after asking if you'd like to have a drink with her as some kind of commemoration. Ok, so later on when you're grounded on the Citadel you run into that Terra Firma guy who says something about Armistice Day "coming up." I don't exactly remember how far apart these events can take place, but I seem to remember that they could be separated by a healthy chunk of gameplay. So provided I'm remembering this right, what's going on? Was Ashley just completely wrong about Armistice Day (seems unlikely)? If it was just "close" as of the conversation, did all of that gameplay take place in the span of a few days at most? Did this little hunt-Saren expedition take approximately a year? Time paradox? What gives?


In a similar vein, what I hope ends up happening with the limited fuel supply is that:

1) The less fuel you have on hand at the end, the harder the endgame will be and the more likely it is that your mission turns out to be a suicide mission.
2) You can get more fuel from various sources, but the more fuel you buy/acquire the harder it is to get, the less reputable (i.e. more criminal/psychopathic) the people who you have to deal with to get the fuel become and the more hoops you have to go through to get your fuel.
3) It becomes impractical to play more than say, 1/2-3/4 of the sidequests in a given playthrough. You would actually have to choose which missions are important as opposed to the standard "just do all of them" approach that works in ME1.

1) I dunno..maybe, under the right circumstances. 2) So like the miscellaneous collection missions from the first game? People loved those, huh? :smallbiggrin: Could be a way to justify at least some random exploration I suppose. 3) I'm not sure about just locking off lots of side missions for reasons other than branching that depends on how other missions work out or maybe morality, like those two side missions in ME1. Seems like kind of a cheap way to wave ones arms around and say "look! replayability!" :smalltongue:

Edit: Good God I tend to write long posts. :smalltongue:

[Serenity]

Yes, the urgency of the central mission of ME1 is at odds with the leisurely pace you can take and the huge number of side quests you will end up doing. The alternative is an unplayable game--or at the very least, Sierra Adventure Game levels of hard, and a major departure from the style of gameplay for what seems to me to be very little real gain.

You do realize that if they were to allow Liara to die, the game would become unwinnable? Without her, you cannot make sense of the vision or have any clue where Saren is going to find the Conduit--not that the game gives you any clue that she'll be so important beforehand, nor that the mission to find her is in any way urgent. Under your suggestion, a new player who decides to go to Feros first, because the situation there sounds the most urgent, would lose the game without knowing it.

The sort of internal clock you suggest would require making the game essentially linear and cutting basically everything not related to the main plot. At which point, I'd argue you're starting to make an entirely different game--and even if you're not, a lot of the richness of the world would be lost.

You'd be hard-pressed to make me play games on timers that were designed for them, like the original Prince of Persia. I'm certainly never going to play an RPG that does it.

As for the guns: Mass Effect 1 establishes that the way firearms technology works in the Mass Effect universe gives them virtually unlimited ammo, barring firing for days on end. I repeat: this is how all guns in the universe are designed. If you hold down the fire button and spray endlessly, than they overheat and you have to let them cool down. This is functionally identical to having to change a clip in in gameplay terms. So, if they have given you ammo clips in ME2, they've broken the rules of how their technology works for no good reason.

[cha0s4a11]

I'm honestly not quite sure what you're trying to say, but it would probably be a bad idea to have molten slag in the chamber. If you were to fire to that point, it was probably a hell of a battle wherein you ran out of clips and had to override the firing interrupt that normally prevents weapon discharge after a certain temperature. Or the interrupt just failed and you're now dangerously close to weapon failure without knowing it, but that's less dramatic probably. The main thing I was getting at is that the ME2 system seems to neglect the fact that hot things will cool down eventually, and that irritates me. The speed with which ME1 weapons cooled suggests some kind of active vent system. Problem with that of course being that it wouldn't really work in vacuum environments, so you'd need something like a radiator to speed up the process of radiating heat off. Course, maybe for the purposes of a game it's enough to just say "yeah, it cools off, but that takes time, so try not to just spray constantly." (Disclaimer: I'm not a physicist or expert in thermodynamics--I do know that hot things cool off though)

How I think of it. The clips don't contain ammo, they are just heatsinks designed so that they:

1) Soak up most of the thermal energy created from firing into the clip itself.
2) Fail before the gun fails since guns are expensive and heatsinks are cheap.

A given number of shots generates a given amount of heat and a given max heat capacity for a given clip, leads to an effective clip size. How fast it cools down depends on how quickly it radiates heat to the area around it, which probably leads to some engineering issues to make sure it doesn't dump the thermal energy back into the gun. Maybe its a large amount of heat and venting in various environments (i.e. vacuum, where you need to expel some sort of active coolant to cool down, which is inherently limited) is prohibitively expensive. Who knows?


Or just, ya know, call the new system ammunition, cuz that's what it is.

They could, but then they would get crap from those who memorized the Codex. Can't please everyone. :smallcool:


If there's some kind of "no, I'm going to attempt to disarm this bomb instead of tossing it out the window where it could still possibly hurt people" (*shrug* I dunno :smalltongue:) scenario and through some series of events it ends up blowing anyway and managing to get through whatever protection you were using at the time (maybe you're a guest member of the bomb squad :smallbiggrin:) and you end up with some kind of scars that would be acceptable. It was something you chose to do which had risks, and the consequences presented for that decision (possibly resulting from failure in some way..I dunno, maybe you don't get the minigame right or something, if they want to give you a chance to actually disarm it) make sense. Sufficiently badass scenarios could be a kind of "these scars are trophies/badges of honor/etc" thing.

Choosing "no, too many people have died here because of you--you don't get to live" *BAM* in a conversation and then having one of your squadmates say "hey, your scars look a little deeper now" is nonsensical. That may work for something like Fable, but it just doesn't make sense in Mass Effect.


No argument from me there. :smallbiggrin:


I can kind of see that. Not really sure my desire for reasonable timelines trumps my desire to explore though. :smallsmile: I'm still meaning to do a run where I rescue Liara after doing the other planets, since I'm told she thinks you're a hunger-induced hallucination if you wait that long. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, indeed. Found that out in my "Can't arrange things so that only you and Tali are available to go through the Veldime research complex" run. :smallamused:


And now that you mention timelines, maybe you or someone else can help me with something. Ok, if you talk to Ashley enough on the Normandy (not sure if you need to be mShep for it or not) she'll mention that it's Armistice Day (I think she specifically says that it is, but I'm not completely certain..someone remember for sure?) after asking if you'd like to have a drink with her as some kind of commemoration. Ok, so later on when you're grounded on the Citadel you run into that Terra Firma guy who says something about Armistice Day "coming up." I don't exactly remember how far apart these events can take place, but I seem to remember that they could be separated by a healthy chunk of gameplay. So provided I'm remembering this right, what's going on? Was Ashley just completely wrong about Armistice Day (seems unlikely)? If it was just "close" as of the conversation, did all of that gameplay take place in the span of a few days at most? Did this little hunt-Saren expedition take approximately a year? Time paradox? What gives?

Its probably best to just assume that the Normandy is secretly a TARDIS. That's what you get when you let aliens help design the ship. :smallbiggrin:


2) So like the miscellaneous collection missions from the first game? People loved those, huh? :smallbiggrin: Could be a way to justify at least some random exploration I suppose.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Early Game: Fuel costs X credits/amount. Available to buy from everyone. A large number of groups are offering fuel in exchange for completing missions of various descriptions.
Mid Game: Fuel costs 5X credits/amount. Available to buy from most vendors. There are a few groups offering fuel for missions, but many of them are ethically dubious.
Late Game: Fuel costs 25X credits/amount. Available to buy from vendors that owe you a favor or that you've done good work for previously. Missions for fuel definitely are on the far side of Renegade and involve working for criminals and psychos.
Very Late Game: You can't buy fuel. If you want more, then you have to prop up the local crimelords in their crusade to kill the puppies of all the orphans for fun and profit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon) and then, maybe, you might be able to convince them to part with some fuel. If you have the right people skills. If not, then more shooting will probably be involved, and they have more and bigger guns.

Granted, this scheme gives Renegades an advantage in that they can have longer games (which could probably be counteracted somewhat by offering better Paragon fuel missions early on), but I see it as a legitimate tradeoff, namely you can either be the perfectly morally upright leader who always does the well established nice thing, or you can be the complete and utter bastard who is willing to do anything to give yourself the best chance to save the galaxy, or somewhere in between.



3) I'm not sure about just locking off lots of side missions for reasons other than branching that depends on how other missions work out or maybe morality, like those two side missions in ME1. Seems like kind of a cheap way to wave ones arms around and say "look! replayability!" :smalltongue:


Perhaps, but given all the other factors that make the game replayable, I don't think that the mission limitation would be the main factor there. If you decide to replay once per class, that would be 6 playthroughs. If you can get to 1/2-3/4 of the missions per playthrough, then that means when you have finished going through all the classes, you have seen each mission an average of 3-4.5 times.


Edit: Good God I tend to write long posts. :smalltongue:

Same here. :smallcool:

[cha0s4a11]

Yes, the urgency of the central mission of ME1 is at odds with the leisurely pace you can take and the huge number of side quests you will end up doing. The alternative is an unplayable game--or at the very least, Sierra Adventure Game levels of hard, and a major departure from the style of gameplay for what seems to me to be very little real gain.

You do realize that if they were to allow Liara to die, the game would become unwinnable? Without her, you cannot make sense of the vision or have any clue where Saren is going to find the Conduit--not that the game gives you any clue that she'll be so important beforehand, nor that the mission to find her is in any way urgent. Under your suggestion, a new player who decides to go to Feros first, because the situation there sounds the most urgent, would lose the game without knowing it.

I am not saying make the game unwinnable, just give some non-trivial indicator that really bad stuff is approaching the further you get into the game. My original suggestion on the Bioware boards essentially said to have a doomsday scenario happen at whatever place you chose to go to last.

i.e. If you go there last:

Artemis Tau: Liara is dead from being trapped in for so long, barrier is still up and Geth are still trying to break in. When you find Liara's body, you also find a copy of her research notes which tips you off that Ilos is the place you want to go.

Feros: Zhu's Hope Colony is effectively gone, replaced with a massive Thorian creeper infestation currently engaged in fighting with the Geth garrisoned there. Lizbeth and the few Exogeni survivors really are the only people left. You find out about the Thorian from them and get the Cypher like you would normally.

Noveria: Total Geth takeover of Hanshan Port. On the plus side, it's somewhat easier to get to the Garage now. :smallbiggrin: Benezia is still there to get the information about the Mu Relay from.

Virmire: The Salarian Infiltration team is stretched to its limits, meaning either you have to provide as much cover as possible (Blow up the communications places, blow up the fighter refueling depot, etc. essentially do everything right and Paragon that you can in your approach to the complex) or whoever you have stationed with the Salarians dies an early death, and whoever else is left will get swarmed because you cannot be in two places at once.


The sort of internal clock you suggest would require making the game essentially linear and cutting basically everything not related to the main plot. At which point, I'd argue you're starting to make an entirely different game--and even if you're not, a lot of the richness of the world would be lost.

You'd be hard-pressed to make me play games on timers that were designed for them, like the original Prince of Persia. I'm certainly never going to play an RPG that does it.


I'm not suggesting having a hard timer, nor am I suggesting making every the game essentially a Final Fantasy 9 perfect run where you have to rush and do everything quickly enough so you dont miss getting the Excalibur II and thus fail. What I am suggesting is merely something that indicates that putting things off has consequences. Not game breaking consequences, just significant ones. Significant enough that you actually have to make decisions about what gets priority. If they did that, then I suspect the dull resource collection missions would quickly get bumped to the bottom of the list.



As for the guns: Mass Effect 1 establishes that the way firearms technology works in the Mass Effect universe gives them virtually unlimited ammo, barring firing for days on end. I repeat: this is how all guns in the universe are designed. If you hold down the fire button and spray endlessly, than they overheat and you have to let them cool down. This is functionally identical to having to change a clip in in gameplay terms. So, if they have given you ammo clips in ME2, they've broken the rules of how their technology works for no good reason.

The ammo clip is just a heatsink that lets you fire the gun a certain number of
times before the heatsink becomes unusable. That's my theory, anyway.

I'll have to wait to see how it works in practice before I can tell whether its a good change or not.

[Callos_DeTerran]

See, Chaos' idea sounds really cool but it seems like it'd be a pain to implement when everything needs to come together (or close together) for Mass Effect 3. They could probably implement such a thing then though..

Actually, if Liara was to die, then Mass Effect 2 probably couldn't happen with Shepard as the good guy. I read somewhere that Liara is responsible for getting Shepard's body to Cereberus in the first place so if she's dead...either they find someone else to do it or you make a new Spectre entirely. xD

On fuel, I believe they are primarily using fuel as a means of restricting access to certain planets until the plot is ready for you to get to them. I think, don't quote me on that, and if so then that's pretty good way of doing it. God knows I tried to find Virmire right after gaining control of the Normandy but couldn't land on the sucker for some unimaginable reason. Now? Well, can't get to planet ??? because don't have enough fuel/not supposed to be there.

And as silly as it may sound, is anyone else as excited as me about being able to wear non-armor, fill up a fish tank with alien fish, and keep trophies from memorable battles?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Well, apparently (According to Inside Xbox), ME2 is two disks. And the look of your armour is not restricted to whatever armour you're actually wearing. (Taken from a Dev diary posted on Facebook by the ME2 team)

I'm also liking the non-armour choice (Am hoping for the Systems Alliance Navy Uniform seen in ME1 to make an appearance, and that they won't force us to wear the Cerberus stuff seen in previews)

I pre-ordered the Collector's Edition from Amazon, so, hopefully it doesn't take too long to get to me. :smallbiggrin:

[Serenity]

In response to your specific doomsday scenarios--again, Liara's death makes the game unwinnable as written. It's not just the Cypher that makes the vision decipherable, it's mind-melding with someone who has studied the Protheans in depth for longer than you've been alive. Finding some notes on her body that say 'go to Ilos' is a cheap cop-out and contradictory to the rest of the plot. Nor would it make sense for the Geth to take over Port Hanshan; they weren't staging attacks on the Port; they were working for Benezia to secure Peak 15.

The other two scenarios do work within the plot as presented--but it still seems to me like amputating limbs to try and cure a cold. It's not as though many people 'prioritize' the dull collection missions over the main storyline in the first place--they survey minerals and anomalies as long as they're there doing other assignments. And even if I did agree that discouraging doing all the sidequests was a good goal--which I most strenuously do not--your proposal, if it's tied merely to which planet you go to last, rather than an internal clock, doesn't accomplish that. The player who focuses solely on the main storyline missions would end up getting a Diabolus ex Machina, same as the player who took their sweet time.

In the end I've got to go with Shamus Young's assessment:

"You Must Save The World... Eventually

The bad guy might be on the precipice of world domination, but he's sporting enough to let you build up until you're ready to face him.

Games with time limits have the problem that if you run out of time, your entire savegame is screwed and you have no choice but to start over from scratch. This tends to drain the fun out of the game. Also, it's hard to tell how long the quest will take, so players feel like they're being rushed and end up missing out on content, even if they have plenty of time. The original Fallout had a hard time limit, and a few players discovered the frustration of running out.

It's nice to be able to explore the freeform world and do the sidequests without having a clock running. A good story can make the task feel urgent without actually putting a time limit on how long you have to save the world. It might not make sense, but it's nice to know you're free to explore as long as you're having fun, and you're free to move forward if you want to see how the story turns out."

TLDR: I'm discouraged by the GRIMDARK turn ME2 seems to be taking, but at present I'm still willing to give it a try. If this 'fuel' business is to be used in some sort of manner similar to Cha0s' proposals, that will be the final nail in the coffin for me--and the same for most any other RPG to use such a system.

[chiasaur11]

In response to your specific doomsday scenarios--again, Liara's death makes the game unwinnable as written. It's not just the Cypher that makes the vision decipherable, it's mind-melding with someone who has studied the Protheans in depth for longer than you've been alive. Finding some notes on her body that say 'go to Ilos' is a cheap cop-out and contradictory to the rest of the plot. Nor would it make sense for the Geth to take over Port Hanshan; they weren't staging attacks on the Port; they were working for Benezia to secure Peak 15.

The other two scenarios do work within the plot as presented--but it still seems to me like amputating limbs to try and cure a cold. It's not as though many people 'prioritize' the dull collection missions over the main storyline in the first place--they survey minerals and anomalies as long as they're there doing other assignments. And even if I did agree that discouraging doing all the sidequests was a good goal--which I most strenuously do not--your proposal, if it's tied merely to which planet you go to last, rather than an internal clock, doesn't accomplish that. The player who focuses solely on the main storyline missions would end up getting a Diabolus ex Machina, same as the player who took their sweet time.

In the end I've got to go with Shamus Young's assessment:

"You Must Save The World... Eventually

The bad guy might be on the precipice of world domination, but he's sporting enough to let you build up until you're ready to face him.

Games with time limits have the problem that if you run out of time, your entire savegame is screwed and you have no choice but to start over from scratch. This tends to drain the fun out of the game. Also, it's hard to tell how long the quest will take, so players feel like they're being rushed and end up missing out on content, even if they have plenty of time. The original Fallout had a hard time limit, and a few players discovered the frustration of running out.

It's nice to be able to explore the freeform world and do the sidequests without having a clock running. A good story can make the task feel urgent without actually putting a time limit on how long you have to save the world. It might not make sense, but it's nice to know you're free to explore as long as you're having fun, and you're free to move forward if you want to see how the story turns out."

TLDR: I'm discouraged by the GRIMDARK turn ME2 seems to be taking, but at present I'm still willing to give it a try. If this 'fuel' business is to be used in some sort of manner similar to Cha0s' proposals, that will be the final nail in the coffin for me--and the same for most any other RPG to use such a system.

What the man says.

I beat Fallout, and that's aces, but I never got far in, say, Ur-Quan masters because I knew there was a time limit ticking down, and it made me antsy about anything less than perfection. Took too much fun away from the game.

[cha0s4a11]

In response to your specific doomsday scenarios--again, Liara's death makes the game unwinnable as written. It's not just the Cypher that makes the vision decipherable, it's mind-melding with someone who has studied the Protheans in depth for longer than you've been alive. Finding some notes on her body that say 'go to Ilos' is a cheap cop-out and contradictory to the rest of the plot.

I was thinking something more in terms of a post-mission meeting where nobody really knows where to go from there, reporting to the Council that you are stumped and they have no new leads to give you. Afterwards, Shepard goes through the notes to see if he recognizes anything. Cue cutscene of him going through a list of various planets that were under Prothean control at some point according to the research notes that he is going through on the console in his quarters:

"Next planet"
*Display switches to next planet*
"Next planet"
*Display switches to next planet*
*Some indicaton of time elapsing*
"Next planet"
*Display switches to next planet*
"Next plan...wait"
*Shows display of the planet*
*Shows planet in Shepard's vision.*
*Shows display of the planet again, which looks quite similar to what he saw in the vision*
"...and according to this it is located *insert location name* which is accessable via the Mu..."
(On comms) "This is the captain. Staff meeting in 5 minutes".

You have another meeting where you explain to everyone the connection you think you made, everyone is generally skeptical. You (if you are Paragon) admit that you aren't entirely sure yourself but you really don't have any other leads or (if you are Renegade) loudly assert that you damn well know what you saw and that we really need to follow up on this.

This chain of events also has the benefit of giving the Council more justification for trying to ground you on Citadel Station since you aren't even sure how correct you are in making this leap.

In short, I figure that without Liara but with her notes, you can piece things together enough to have a notion of where to go next, but not enough to be so absolutely sure that you aren't just heading toward some random dead end.


Nor would it make sense for the Geth to take over Port Hanshan; they weren't staging attacks on the Port; they were working for Benezia to secure Peak 15.


Hmm. Fair enough.

Perhaps the Rachni escape the Hot Labs and kill everyone in the Peak 15 complex leaving you to fight your way through a huge nest of Rachni to get to where Benezia would normally be. Access a nearby console, get a copy of her transmissions to Saren, blast your way out, leave and tell Noveria's management to nuke Peak 15 as per the Code Omega message sent. The Rachni Queen is not salvageable since the only way to kill all her insane children involves nuking the place.



The other two scenarios do work within the plot as presented--but it still seems to me like amputating limbs to try and cure a cold. It's not as though many people 'prioritize' the dull collection missions over the main storyline in the first place--they survey minerals and anomalies as long as they're there doing other assignments.

Without any sense of tradeoff whatsoever despite the fact that you are supposed to be saving the galaxy, not getting into the minerals and artifacts speculation business.


And even if I did agree that discouraging doing all the sidequests was a good goal--which I most strenuously do not--your proposal, if it's tied merely to which planet you go to last, rather than an internal clock, doesn't accomplish that. The player who focuses solely on the main storyline missions would end up getting a Diabolus ex Machina, same as the player who took their sweet time.

Then just have the bad stuff go down on the last of the four storyline missions that you choose the order of if you have gone to more than x planets/done more than y sidequests.


In the end I've got to go with Shamus Young's assessment:

"You Must Save The World... Eventually

The bad guy might be on the precipice of world domination, but he's sporting enough to let you build up until you're ready to face him.

Games with time limits have the problem that if you run out of time, your entire savegame is screwed and you have no choice but to start over from scratch. This tends to drain the fun out of the game. Also, it's hard to tell how long the quest will take, so players feel like they're being rushed and end up missing out on content, even if they have plenty of time. The original Fallout had a hard time limit, and a few players discovered the frustration of running out.

It's nice to be able to explore the freeform world and do the sidequests without having a clock running. A good story can make the task feel urgent without actually putting a time limit on how long you have to save the world. It might not make sense, but it's nice to know you're free to explore as long as you're having fun, and you're free to move forward if you want to see how the story turns out."


I would generally prefer a soft timer, namely that you can always save the world/galaxy/universe/whatever, but the more time you waste in doing so, the more collateral damage there will be along the way.

But, different strokes for different folks. :smallcool:

[SilverSheriff]

How about we all just appreciate the MASS EFFECT story for what it is and continue looking forward to the Sequel?

[Calemyr]

Guys, you do remember that the character creation gimmick in the first game was a CORRUPTED FILE, yeah? A famous marine of the most elite classification (N7) and they have no backup records of him, then take YOUR word for it when you say he's a war hero. When you try to describe it, the concept sounds incredibly stupid, but in practice it worked surprisingly well - a character creator that attempted to avoid a break in immersion. Whether it worked or not is a different matter, but it was a noble effort.

The whole death and return of Super Shep angle could work or it could fail very hard, depending on how it's handled. I can see why it was necessary, though. It handles solves many different problems with importing a saved game:

1) Shep's appearance: Bioware seems to have upped it's game on the graphics this time around. Here's to hoping they solved the texture pop issue. Anyway, the old facial models and the system attached to it will be outdated and likely improved to fit the new game. If they kept the old models, Shep would look really out of place, with his glazed plastic face and blotchy skin. If they updated the models but kept the same facial configuration from ME1, there's a significant chance that a configuration that worked well in ME1 turns out sub-par this time around, especially if the weaker models were given more attention. Even if you give them access to a facial reconstruction, how do you justify it? Changing faces to hide would make some sense, but wrecks immersion if the player really liked their old face and attempted to replicate it as closely as possible. Reconstructive surgery after a catastrophic event works well as a justification for any slight or drastic changes in Shep's appearance without making an unnecessary fuss over it.

2) Shep's skills: The introduction of several new skills and (presumably) a rebalancing of the old ones makes importing characters difficult. Your character could easily go from intelligently designed in ME1 to a suboptimal mess full of points assigned to skills that no longer serve the same purpose (or possibly even exist). Instead, they simplify things by simply hitting the reset button, allowing you to rebuild your character as you see fit, all the while claiming "on the job physical therapy" as the in-plot justification. Being able to reselect your class is a gift to the player, allowing them to replay ME2 with any class while still enjoying the effects of their favorite save(s). Otherwise, you'd need to play the ME1 straight through, from scratch, 6 times in order to accomplish that.

3) Shep's Allegience: If you've played ME1, you know that you can make some choices that have a very drastic impact on the galaxy. Is your Shep a close personal friend of Councilor Anderson or Emperor Udina's chief enforcer? By using this resurrection trick, they control your initial allegience, pinning you to Cerberus. That makes the story a whole lot cleaner. And if you've read Ascension, you know Cerberus's Illusive Man would be more than willing to use any method he deemed effective to ensure Shep's obedience, if not loyalty, be it an explosive implant or mental conditioning or a cause Shep cannot refuse. "Would you kindly save our people from a secretive race of kidnappers who just may happen to possess the weapons you need to fight your Reapers? If you do, I promise I won't paint the walls with your entrails..." Or something. Of course, once events have gained momentum, your allegience becomes your own business again, and Cerberus may find that their old nemesis isn't their docile pet after all.

4) Shep's Team: In ME1, you had a lot of pull on your party's final makeup. Wrex, Ash, and Kaiden could while Garrus could never be enlisted. Obviously a new party is in order, but such a drastic roster change has to be justified. More than that, established characters must be removed from the initial party in order to give new characters a chance to establish themselves. By "killing" Shep, this game isolates him from his old allies at first, allowing the others (such as Tali, who has been confirmed to return, seeing as she's the only one guaranteed to have been with you the entire time) to return over the course of the game. This gives the new cast a chance to shine and not just be cheap knockoffs of deceased allies (Grunt and Wrex, for instance, are very different examples of what Krogans can be).

This is a bold move, and one that could be catastrophic if mishandled. Like most bold moves, however, it could also make the game if handled correctly, resolving several game design issues with a single plot point. The actual death may have been overblown so far and actually be a "Miracle Max" type scenario ("They say you're dead, but it turns out you were only *mostly* dead. We fixed that, but it'll take some time to get your groove back.") Regardless, I've seen Bioware succeed too many times and fail too many times to try and predict whether this decision will work or not. Given Bioware's track record, though, I would put the odds in favor of it working if only by a little.

[d12]

How I think of it. The clips don't contain ammo, they are just heatsinks designed so that they:

1) Soak up most of the thermal energy created from firing into the clip itself.
2) Fail before the gun fails since guns are expensive and heatsinks are cheap.

Right, that's how they try to explain it. The problem is that once you've fired enough to reach the heat capacity of the heatsink the weapon will never fire unless you change out the heatsink. The problem is heat doesn't work that way. A hot object left on its own will eventually cool off, but these guns don't seem to do that. In fact, the new system just happens to be identical to how ammunition works with real-world guns. Therefore, I am saying, this is not a heat buildup/dissipation system; it's an ammunition system, per the Xs Like A Duck Doctrine.

I'm also just not sure about the fuel system as you've outlined it. Seems to introduce too much mundane detail into what is supposed to be an epic space opera.


Noveria: Total Geth takeover of Hanshan Port. On the plus side, it's somewhat easier to get to the Garage now. :smallbiggrin: Benezia is still there to get the information about the Mu Relay from.

What I always wondered is why you can't just shoot the guard if she persists in giving you static about having a flippin garage pass. What's going to happen? Full security alert? Alright, I'm game. It's not like I haven't had to kill dozens of guys before. Or, ya know, don't hassle the guy who can do just about anything in pursuit of his objective without anyone asking a lot of questions. I mean, the process of obtaining the pass is perhaps one of the most option-filled missions I can remember from just about any game I've ever played, but it still seems like it overlooked the "we don't have time for this idiot--charge!" option. :smalltongue:

Now, even though I've talked about most of the problems and concerns I have with what I've heard about ME2, I'm still going to see how it all works as a whole before deciding whether or not to write the whole game off. I have played games which I've enjoyed despite individual elements I couldn't stand. Usually I'm not too concerned about story or plot progression or any of that in games (probably part of why I greatly prefer open-ended, sandboxy games), but I actually found myself interested in Mass Effect's overall setting and storyline, so I'm probably willing to give ME2 more of a chance than I would give other games in a similar position.

I really hope sniper rifles still sound like they did in ME1. :smallbiggrin: I love that sound.

[Serenity]

And again--why would anyone invent a disposable heat sink for ME guns, when they clearly have a built in permanent heat vent in the first? Why on earth would someone make add-ons to the guns that make them strictly worse? What good reason is there to change the way guns function in the ME universe?

Anyway, I think cha0s and I will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, if you want the player to focus on the main quest, don't include sidequests. Whether hard or soft, the 'timer' cha0s proposes strikes me as punishing the player for using the content of the game.

[cha0s4a11]

Anyway, I think cha0s and I will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, if you want the player to focus on the main quest, don't include sidequests. Whether hard or soft, the 'timer' cha0s proposes strikes me as punishing the player for using the content of the game.

Fair enough. Hope we both enjoy the game. :smallbiggrin:

[Corvus]

And again--why would anyone invent a disposable heat sink for ME guns, when they clearly have a built in permanent heat vent in the first? Why on earth would someone make add-ons to the guns that make them strictly worse? What good reason is there to change the way guns function in the ME universe?


The way I understood it - and I may be wrong - it was an upgrade. In the old system if you overheated you had to wait a while before the gun cooled down before you could use it again.

In the new system instead of waiting you simply eject the heat sink and replace it and return to firing OR you could wait for it to cool down over time like in ME1.

[Serenity]

Hmm...so long as I don't have to go hunting for Ammo Crates or whatever, I suppose that makes some degree of sense. Still doesn't seem like an improvement to me, but it's something I can deal with.

[Thanatos 51-50]

The new system is potentially a MAJOR hit to Sniper rifles, to the point I can't reasonably use them in every engagement. This will me me sad.

[Calemyr]

Actually, it seems to me that Infiltrators gain more from sniper rifles than ever, thanks to their new cloaking technology. Go into stealth, line up a shot, and place a speck of metal in an enemy's forehead. Sounds like a very nice feature to me. Sucks to be a soldier, of course, but they're getting new features as well.

[mangosta71]

I think what Than means is that, if the "heat sink" items are specific to a type of gun, and sniper rifles go through them as quickly as they heat up in the original game, the use of the sniper rifle will be extremely limited.

[Calemyr]

As opposed to the very long cool downs the weapons had when they overheated? Replaceable heatsinks could improve rate of fire, I would think.

I haven't seen anything detailing the heat issues for this game on the Bioware site. Do you have any links where I can learn more on the topic?

[mangosta71]

Yes, the cooldown period is long, but it's always ready at the start of a firefight. Against enemies that try to shoot from a distance instead of charging in, you can find a nice piece of cover for those long cooldown periods. With this new system, if a sniper rifle blows a heat sink per shot (the way they overheat after a single shot in the first game) and you have to find heat sinks specific to sniper rifles to use them...

[Calemyr]

I'm smelling a lot of "If" coming off of that complaint. If F-bombs can be used to fuel biotics, Subject Zero will be the most powerful biotic around. (Yeah, I know she probably is.) Have they covered heat in detail anywhere? I severely doubt sinks are designed to behave the way you fear.

[warty goblin]

I greet the new system with apathy. Now the guns will feel like guns in every other third person shooter ever. Sure heat management was hardly the height of original gameplay mechanics*, but it's a hell of a lot more interesting than slamming a new clip heatsink into place in a fraction of a second.

*Although changing machine gun barrels in Red Orchestra is a pretty fun time. And by fun, I mean terrifying.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm smelling a lot of "If" coming off of that complaint. If F-bombs can be used to fuel biotics, Subject Zero will be the most powerful biotic around. (Yeah, I know she probably is.) Have they covered heat in detail anywhere? I severely doubt sinks are designed to behave the way you fear.

Hey, I just want to be reasonably able to solely use the Sniper Rifle in combat, leave the Heavy weapons at home, and only use the SMG to intimidate people.
Unfortunately, this does not look likely.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Awesome New Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/launch-trailer-mass-effect/61043)

As someone else who saw it said:


I thought it was impossible for me to want this game any more than I already did.

I was wrong.

God damn you, Bioware.

[Derthric]

Awesome New Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/launch-trailer-mass-effect/61043)

As someone else who saw it said:

I wish human's could hibernate or something Tuesday is not coming fast enough. Quick someone bring me the TARDIS and a 360 now!

[Callos_DeTerran]

Awesome New Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/launch-trailer-mass-effect/61043)

As someone else who saw it said:

...DAMMIT! I can't even play it until Thursday in the first place because of money issues!

[Thanatos 51-50]

Yes, let's hope Amazon gets my disc here quickly.

[Calemyr]

How were able to use Sniper Rifles exclusively in the first place? It's wildly inacurate to shoot from the hip and when sighting it's very hard to handle close in characters. You don't always get clean shots at enemies (particularly krogan and primes) before they get up close and personal. Don't get me wrong, I loved the Sniper Rifle (explosive ammo + two scram rails + assassination = one shot, but boy is it a good one!), but if I had to choose between that and the pistol, I'd take the pistol any day. It wasn't hard to get permanent Marksman or heatless pistols, after all.

[thegurullamen]

Awesome New Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/launch-trailer-mass-effect/61043)

Holy trailer of great music and epic context. You know, I think they could actually get away with Sub Zero being a one-dimensional anti-hero against that kind of a backdrop. Because...damn.

[thorgrim29]

Good god that's an awesome trailer. And I hope Ash/Kaidan doesn't just get a cutscene death, especially not ash

[Philistine]

Yes, let's hope Amazon gets my disc here quickly.
That depends greatly on the shipping method you selected. If you went with their free option, it'll likely be a week or so after the street date. (When I ordered the first WoW expansion from them, it was almost two weeks before it reached me.)


Good god that's an awesome trailer. And I hope Ash/Kaidan doesn't just get a cutscene death, especially not ash
Supposedly, whichever one of them survived Virmire is going to show up in ME3 (possibly creating harem havoc if you romanced different characters in the first and second games). So it looks like the Collectors don't kill the people they take - or at least, not right away.

[Rogue 7]

...DAMMIT! I can't even play it until Thursday in the first place because of money issues!

I had to agree to wait to get it until Thursday so my brother isn't tempted to play it when he has midterms. It was tough to agree.

[Lord Iames Osari]

More win from our friends. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-HgVM6JSIY)

[Thanatos 51-50]

How were able to use Sniper Rifles exclusively in the first place? It's wildly inacurate to shoot from the hip and when sighting it's very hard to handle close in characters. You don't always get clean shots at enemies (particularly krogan and primes) before they get up close and personal.

I'm very good and spammed Assassination at lower levels for distance shots. Otherwise, I focused alot and grit my teeth and dealt with weapon drift.
Which is, by the way reduced when crouching or firing from behind "pop-up" cover.

[hanzo66]

Holy trailer of great music and epic context. You know, I think they could actually get away with Sub Zero being a one-dimensional anti-hero against that kind of a backdrop. Because...damn.

I took it that she's going to be one of those Hidden Depths characters that you'll find out more of as you chat her up. The Standard Bioware formula: Starts out as a bitch, gets closer to (Charname)/Shepard/Warden, becomes less of a bitch.

[Khosan]

How were able to use Sniper Rifles exclusively in the first place? It's wildly inacurate to shoot from the hip and when sighting it's very hard to handle close in characters. You don't always get clean shots at enemies (particularly krogan and primes) before they get up close and personal. Don't get me wrong, I loved the Sniper Rifle (explosive ammo + two scram rails + assassination = one shot, but boy is it a good one!), but if I had to choose between that and the pistol, I'd take the pistol any day. It wasn't hard to get permanent Marksman or heatless pistols, after all.

The trick to using Sniper Rifles properly was, once you had decent accuracy (you really did have to skip the SR until you could max out your SR skill), to learn how to no-scope things.

The reticule turned orange when there was an enemy in the center, so you could either take the shot then and there or zoom in and shoot as soon as possible. Stacking damage mods would help too. Shredder/Anti-Personnel or Tungsten/Armor-Piercing rounds would usually be enough to let you one-shot anything short of Geth Prime, Armatures and Krogans (though I did find out that if you had incendiary or freezing ammo, Krogans couldn't get back up).

Good use of cover or choke points is pretty critical too. It's really the only way to tackle the rogue VI on the moon as a sniper.

[† Dran †]

currently playing as I type, don't ask how not a discussion for this forum, however if you have any questions please ask an ill answer as best I can

Imported a lvl 50 character, renegade.

so yeah.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Yay for broken street dates?

Major question: The ammo system, please describe?

[SilverSheriff]

currently playing as I type, don't ask how not a discussion for this forum, however if you have any questions please ask an ill answer as best I can

Imported a lvl 50 character, renegade.

so yeah.

type everything, but put it in spoilers.

OR...

what are you doing here? shouldn't you be playing your game?!

[Ikialev]

I heard that you can interrupt other people with force and guns. Is it true for all dialogues, or just preset ones? If the first, can you shove a gun in your lover's face? :3

[Thanatos 51-50]

I heard that you can interrupt other people with force and guns. Is it true for all dialogues, or just preset ones? If the first, can you shove a gun in your lover's face? :3

Shep: *draws his weapon on SuZe*
SuZe: OOH! Foreplay!:smallbiggrin:

[† Dran †]

Major question: The ammo system, please describe?

Currently the ammo system is only effecting "heavy" weapons, like grenade launchers and the like, it basically puts a max on how many clips you can carry for them. Makes sense to me really. Im sure ill need to update that further but right now I need to play more

For those wondering if its enjoyable? Yeah it is. If you liked ME1 then your going to like ME2

Il'deav Ilah'naie
Yes you can interupt or make people aware of you but using Biotics or a weapon, you also have the chance of... removing things from a npc in a conversation. There are renegade options and paragon options within dialogues however there may only be one option within each dialogue. As for love interests, wouldnt know yet.


Oh and for those of you wondering about the intro.

IMO? Awesome way of balancing your character again. An yeah there are benefits of importing your character and you can still play the same old Shepard if you want. Whilst the opening sequence is dumbed down, its needed for the slight changes in the combat systems that are in place.

[Calemyr]

I'd like to know what kind of import bonuses you got. Were they akin to the achievement bonuses in the first game (quicker recharge times, XP bonuses, shield regen, etc)? Higher grade gear early on? Additional points to spend off the bat? They've been so vague on what you get and it drives me insane.

I mean, I know you only got the lowest tier of bonus (they said the bonuses were given for 49, 59, and 60), but what rewards have you noticed?

[MrPig]

I'd like to know what kind of import bonuses you got. Were they akin to the achievement bonuses in the first game (quicker recharge times, XP bonuses, shield regen, etc)? Higher grade gear early on? Additional points to spend off the bat? They've been so vague on what you get and it drives me insane.

I mean, I know you only got the lowest tier of bonus (they said the bonuses were given for 49, 59, and 60), but what rewards have you noticed?

My memory fails me at my old age, but the biggest bonus I noticed was the 5000 of each resources you get and the 100,000 credits. It allows you to purchace some nifty stuff right off the bat in Omega (the first station you visit) as well as jumping right into some research the moment you recruit your head scientist.

[SilentDragoon]

Which portions of ME1 are needed for importing into ME2? Basically, does it explain where each of the bonus items are coming from; ie. Finished Virmire Badge = 100 credits, or Had level 60 character = X resource? From the preceding post (or two) is it exclusively level based?

[MrPig]

You can only import characters which have completed Mass Effect 1. After that, at some point (very early in game) it tells you what bonuses you get using a pop up window.

[Calemyr]

Correct, from what I've heard. Winning the game is the only requirement. Bonuses are given for winning at high levels (49, 59, 60), to reward people who pushed the limit in the hopes of importing an optimal Shep and are likely to be annoyed by the level reset. Apparently this compensation is in terms of money and resources.

Choices you made in the first game will have effects, but not direct bonuses - one example given is that Conrad Verner (the "fan" from the Citidel in the first game) becomes some sort of official with the Alliance that can help or hinder you based on how you treated him in ME. Neutral Krogan will also respond differently depending on whether Wrex survived or not.

[MrPig]

To clarify, you get bonuses at level ranges; 1-49, 50-59, 60.

[KnightDisciple]

Correct, from what I've heard. Winning the game is the only requirement. Bonuses are given for winning at high levels (49, 59, 60), to reward people who pushed the limit in the hopes of importing an optimal Shep and are likely to be annoyed by the level reset. Apparently this compensation is in terms of money and resources.

Choices you made in the first game will have effects, but not direct bonuses - one example given is that Conrad Verner (the "fan" from the Citidel in the first game) becomes some sort of official with the Alliance that can help or hinder you based on how you treated him in ME. Neutral Krogan will also respond differently depending on whether Wrex survived or not.

So, doing a replay, blasting to 60, and only getting the major quests and side-quests, and skipping things like "we need more vespine gas" is fine?
Awesome. That's good new for my paragon soldier playthrough, then.

[Calemyr]

For straight up bonuses, I suppose, but that's not the point of an imported game. The whole point is the impact the decisions you made, even in minor side quests, have on ME2. Sure, you could power level to 60 for a little more starting cash in ME2, but you'd be wasting such an opportunity.

When I played my own "official" game this last weekend (to generate the game save I'd start with when I get ME2), I made a point of trying to do every quest I could find. Admittedly, this is partly because I just wanted to ensure I'd hit level 60 and obtain the remaining two "ally" achievements, but it was also to have as much influence on ME2 as I could manage.

I mean seriously, did you help Narali Batia's widower or did you let the Alliance keep her body to research Geth weaponry? Did you sell Cerberus secrets to the Shadow Broker? Did you convince Garrus that doing things "right" was better than doing them "fast"? Did you give Tali pilgrimage-worthy data on the Geth? Did you convince Conrad to go home to his family or did you shove a pistol up his nostril? Did you help Chorban research the Keepers and convince him and Jahleed to work together? Did you convince Corporal Toombs to spare the scientist, allowing a Cerberus scientist to fall into the hands of Alliance interrogators? All of these are minor side quests that have nothing to do with the main plot, yet all of them could have pretty dramatic impact on a sequel set several years later.

By the way, Bioware's description of the bonuses were this:


Q: So my character level will carryover?

A: Not exactly. If you reached level 49, you will receive a set of bonuses. If you reached 59 you receive more and 60 you receive the maximum perks.

[KnightDisciple]

Those are the "major" side quests. I meant still doing those, as opposed to things like "scan x of y mineral", and some of the stuff like the quest where there's a tunnel full of husks, but that's it for the mission chain.

[chiasaur11]

The level bonuses are really kinda dull.

You start at a higher level is all. If you capped, you start at level 5.

[Calemyr]

Ah, I see. Fair enough. The mineral quest seems to me to be a perfect excuse for giving you more resources in the sequel, but I don't know that. Otherwise it's just easy XP and credits.

[MrPig]

I mean seriously, did you help Narali Batia's widower or did you let the Alliance keep her body to research Geth weaponry? Did you sell Cerberus secrets to the Shadow Broker? Did you convince Garrus that doing things "right" was better than doing them "fast"? Did you give Tali pilgrimage-worthy data on the Geth? Did you convince Conrad to go home to his family or did you shove a pistol up his nostril? Did you help Chorban research the Keepers and convince him and Jahleed to work together? Did you convince Corporal Toombs to spare the scientist, allowing a Cerberus scientist to fall into the hands of Alliance interrogators? All of these are minor side quests that have nothing to do with the main plot, yet all of them could have pretty dramatic impact on a sequel set several years later.


These side quests, as far as I can tell, do absolutely nothing but have those side characters send you letters where they tell you that they are glad that you are alive and wish to thank you again for helping them. I've seen no other evidence of any importance.

Major decision on the other than keeping Wrex alive, which team mate was sacrificed on Virmire and whether or not the council survived do have an impact. Such as whether or not Anderson survived/became councilor.

My favourite part so far, is when Shepard refers to Udina as "Emperor Udina" to mock him (I had Anderson become councilor) :smallamused:


By the way, Bioware's description of the bonuses were this:

It's misleading then. I got the bonuses with a character level of 56 (Male Shepard) and 57 (Female Shepard). Whether or not these bonuses would be higher had I been 59 or 60, I don't know.

[Calemyr]

Heh. I thought it meant that between 49 and 58 you get a bonus. At 59 you get a better one, and at 60 you get the best one. Given how difficult it is to reach level 60 in two run throughs, I suppose it makes sense.

[Ikialev]

one example given is that Conrad Verner (the "fan" from the Citidel in the first game) becomes some sort of official with the Alliance that can help or hinder you based on how you treated him in ME.
My Verner is back from grave! D=

[KnightDisciple]

*snip*
My favourite part so far, is when Shepard refers to Udina as "Emperor Udina" to mock him (I had Anderson become councilor) :smallamused:*snip*

Out of curiosity, was there anyone who didn't make Anderson a councilor?

...Or enjoy the scene of him busting into Undina's office and planting a beautiful punch across his back-stabbing face?

[mangosta71]

I think I chose Udina once, just to see how it affected things. Even knowing that he was the "renegade" choice at the end, I couldn't do it. A paragon would want Anderson at the helm, and a renegade wouldn't trust a guy that stabbed him in the back at every opportunity. I wanted an option to blow that whorespawn into bits, which would have been more in line with most of my characters.

[MrPig]

Out of curiosity, was there anyone who didn't make Anderson a councilor?

...Or enjoy the scene of him busting into Undina's office and planting a beautiful punch across his back-stabbing face?

To be honest, for my last playthrough ME1 I intended to be 100% douchebag including killing off Anderson (i.e. not choosing the Udina office option. I'm assuming he gets killed), killing off the council and picking Udina, as well as making Liara and Ashley cry a long the way. Sadly I got bored and never finished it.

I was also planning on killing monkies.

[KnightDisciple]

To be honest, for my last playthrough ME1 I intended to be 100% douchebag including killing off Anderson (i.e. not choosing the Udina office option. I'm assuming he gets killed), killing off the council and picking Udina, as well as making Liara and Ashley cry a long the way. Sadly I got bored and never finished it.

I was also planning on killing monkies.

Naw, from what I understand, Anderson's too hardcore to die, though he does get shot. After headbutting a turian.

[MrPig]

Damn, that does sound bad ass ... Maybe I should storm through ME1 just to see that.

[Thanatos 51-50]

It's the 26th here in Japan!
Time to check the store on my lunch break! :smallbiggrin:

[MrPig]

It's the 26th here in Japan!
Time to check the store on my lunch break! :smallbiggrin:

The 26th is the NA launch date. I didn't even the game was being release in Japan. The launch dates only list NA and EU.

[Thanatos 51-50]

The 26th is the NA launch date. I didn't even the game was being release in Japan. The launch dates only list NA and EU.

I live on a US military base. We follow US/North American release dates. :smallbiggrin:

[MrPig]

I live on a US military base. We follow US/North American release dates. :smallbiggrin:

In that case, I hate you sir. I want to give BioWare my money already!

[Calemyr]

In that case, I hate you sir. I want to give BioWare my money already!

I hate him more. A blizzard has rendered all the major roads in my state inadvisable and the closest store is an hour away. No midnight release for me... :smallsigh:

[chiasaur11]

I hate him more. A blizzard has rendered all the major roads in my state inadvisable and the closest store is an hour away. No midnight release for me... :smallsigh:

Steam?

Digital is the way of the future, man.

[Khosan]

Steam?

Digital is the way of the future, man.

That it is. But it's still 18 hours from being released on Steam.

I'm seriously considering skipping class tomorrow for it.

[MrPig]

D2D might have it at midnight. Don't quote me on that though, been a while since I've gotten anything form there.

[warty goblin]

Steam?

Digital is the way of the future, man.

For those that have bandwidth, yes. Otherwise...say hello to spending a week downloading, particularly for something that uses UE3, which tends to have very large installs.

[Calemyr]

I would have done it in a heartbeat if I were getting the PC version. However, my ME1 save is 360 and I hated the PC version of it. I can run Dragon Age and Fallout like gangbusters, but ME1 just chugs like a frat boy.

[MrPig]

I would have done it in a heartbeat if I were getting the PC version. However, my ME1 save is 360 and I hated the PC version of it. I can run Dragon Age and Fallout like gangbusters, but ME1 just chugs like a frat boy.

I always felt the 360 version was a laggy mess with it's capped 30 fps and frame drops every 30 seconds. The PC version did the same on my machine when it first came out. Then BioWare release a patch and the game ran quite smoothly.

[Calemyr]

I'll give it a shot. It's not like I have anything better to do in this weather.

The downside is that I'd need to unlock everything over again in order to have a useful save...

[MrPig]

I can share a save; I have at least 4; 2 high level, 2 mid-range. Unfortunately they're all relatively the same. The only difference being Shepard being male or female.

[Calemyr]

I can share a save; I have at least 4; 2 high level, 2 mid-range. Unfortunately they're all relatively the same. The only difference being Shepard being male or female.

Can you rename your Shep in ME2?

[chiasaur11]

Can you rename your Shep in ME2?

Nope. No such luck.

[Calemyr]

You weren't kidding about the patch improving the PC... Wow.

Do you know if the cheat codes have an impact on a save?

[Thanatos 51-50]

In that case, I hate you sir. I want to give BioWare my money already!

Eh, don't.
The store is closed for inventory.

[MrPig]

You weren't kidding about the patch improving the PC... Wow.

Do you know if the cheat codes have an impact on a save?

Hmm, I'm not sure. I never finished my console enabled save.

Late edit: There are actually 2 patches for the PC version of ME. However, patch 2 isn't as heavy as as the first one. Also, don't forget the Bringing Down the Sky DLC. It's free for those who have purchased the PC version. Good XP, and if you go the Paragon route (as far as I can tell) you get some nifty choice in armour.

[SilverSheriff]

Unlike the first game, Tali becomes a possible romance option for a male Shepard in Mass Effect 2

Fan service? YES!:smalltongue:

[MrPig]

Fan service? YES!:smalltongue:

Orly? Tali clearly is the hottest chick in the game. Her biosuit isn't to protect her from bacteria. It's to protect us from her awesome.

[mangosta71]

Fan service? YES!:smalltongue:

No, fan service would have been making her a romance option for a female Shepard.

[Khosan]

Can someone remind me of the command to vault over things? It's W+Space or something, isn't it?

[DranWork]

yeap space and the direction you want to go. Some barriers wont let you only cause youll fall into nothingness!!!

I only have one complaint so far with ME2 and its the damn ammo system. Starting off its okay, ballences everything nicely... later on its a nightmare! (least on Vet or insane difficulties) Never quite enough ammo Imo, and it really limits the "sniper" class's.

Apart from that the characters are well done, the choices are really nice (currently about 75% of the way through with a Renegade Shep and some of the renegade choices are awesome, some are even funny!) The story takes a little to get off the ground but once it does its as engaging as the first. Ill hold my full judgement till the end of the game...

[Serenity]

Hmm, I'm not sure. I never finished my console enabled save.

Late edit: There are actually 2 patches for the PC version of ME. However, patch 2 isn't as heavy as as the first one. Also, don't forget the Bringing Down the Sky DLC. It's free for those who have purchased the PC version. Good XP, and if you go the Paragon route (as far as I can tell) you get some nifty choice in armour.

You get the armor whatever choice you take.

[NeoVid]

Choices you made in the first game will have effects, but not direct bonuses - one example given is that Conrad Verner (the "fan" from the Citidel in the first game) becomes some sort of official with the Alliance that can help or hinder you based on how you treated him in ME.

Wait, what? Verner gets himself killed after you take the Renegade option. The news report about his idiotic death is one of the things I found funniest in the game.

[DranWork]

If he died like he did in my game then he doesnt show up at all, however the news reporter that interviews you does. Ill leave it at that.

[MrPig]

I have no complaint about the ammo system at all. It forces you to strategize and actually use your teammates powers as opposed to ME1 where you could basically solo the entire game.

Then again, I'm playing an Adept so I just spam my kamehameha. Erm, I mean, wrap.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I can't wait to get this game!

[Zevox]

So, I got this game today, and played a fair amount of it in between homework. So far... eh, mixed reactions. The opening seemed cheesy to me, and Cerberus suddenly going from rape-the-dog-villains to misunderstood-good-guys is very hard to swallow (fortunately, they at least include plenty of dialogue options for you to voice that opinion, even though they don't give you the option to not work with them). I also really don't like that there are ammo limits now - makes the gameplay that much more shootery, and I don't like that. And the ammo limit on the basic pistol seems annoyingly low to me. Good thing I can use biotic powers so regularly.

On the other hand, the story outside of the complaints I already gave seems to have potential. I do like the new hacking mini-games over the old one, although one of them was a bit poorly explained and difficult to figure out at first. I like how the Throw power is now long-ranged, too. And the new Normandy design is quite nice, as is the option to customize your appearance in there (though I do wish there were a few more options for casual outfits, and that you could customize DLC armors). I might even like some of these new companions more than the old ones once I get to know them better, too (not that I was all that fond of most of the first game's companions, but it's still a potential improvement). Oh, and the fact that different weapons seem to have different advantages now - such as that more rapid-fire second pistol you get being good against armor but less so against shields, while the basic pistol is the reverse - is a nice change.

Oh, but there is one big problem I'm having. What the nine hells is up with the text being so damn tiny? I can barely read it half of the time - sometimes I can't read dialogue choices at all, depending on what they're being displayed over at the time. It's just terrible.

Zevox

[Serenity]

What kind of justification did they give for guns having an ammo system of any sort, when the first games codex made it very clear that ME guns do not run out of bullets unless you've been continuously firing for a whole day?

I mean, I get that it's not technically ammo but 'Thermal Clips', but the effect is apparently the same. The first games guns fired and cooled down just fine without these clips. Why have they suddenly become essential to firearm operation in ME2?

[cha0s4a11]

What kind of justification did they give for guns having an ammo system of any sort, when the first games codex made it very clear that ME guns do not run out of bullets unless you've been continuously firing for a whole day?

I mean, I get that it's not technically ammo but 'Thermal Clips', but the effect is apparently the same. The first games guns fired and cooled down just fine without these clips. Why have they suddenly become essential to firearm operation in ME2?

The in-game justification from the manual (and possibly the Codex) is that some Alliance eggheads noticed that the Geth had an advantage in combat due to using disposable clips since that allowed them a near continuous ability to fire (with minimal downtime due to clip switching) and they ran the numbers and found that, with a bit of training and cheap enough thermal clips, the numbers worked out in favor of the high powered near-continuous blasts using disposable clips vs the mid powered don't shoot too much or you'll be unable to shoot for a few seconds without disposable clips. So all the guns everywhere have been retrofitted accordingly.

Some of this strains credulity (especially that last part) but whatever.

Playing through it now as mostly paragon with a side of poetic justice (Guess which option I chose in dealing with the Batarian barkeep?)

One of the things I like about the new interface is how they've given melee its own separate button and made it more effective. I'm not sure how much that last part is just perception, given that most of my uses of melee in the original was me trying to get Shepard to shoot someone in the head at point blank range.

[NeoVid]

Oh, but there is one big problem I'm having. What the nine hells is up with the text being so damn tiny? I can barely read it half of the time - sometimes I can't read dialogue choices at all, depending on what they're being displayed over at the time. It's just terrible.

Zevox

That happens when a game is designed only to be played on an HDTV. I think Dead Rising was the first to do it.

[SilverSheriff]

Great...so I'm not only going to have to buy MASS EFFECT 2, I'm going to have to buy a stonking-huge Plasma screen telly...

[Thanatos 51-50]

Great...so I'm not only going to have to buy MASS EFFECT 2, I'm going to have to buy a stonking-huge Plasma screen telly...

Where does this assumption that all gamers have high def plasma-screen TVs come from? I just have the piece of crap the Barracks gave me.

[MrPig]

Great...so I'm not only going to have to buy MASS EFFECT 2, I'm going to have to buy a stonking-huge Plasma screen telly...

Or play it on a computer LCD monitor like I do.

Edit: Regarding the ammo. I'm really tired of people complaining about the new system. BioWare had to change it. Yes, it's a bit odd for the entire galaxy to have all of it's guns retrofitted into a clip type system in only 2 years, but still. In Mass Effect 1, as a soldier sticking 2 Frictionless Materials into a Spectre class rifle X (HW ... Something) made me a walking, shooting god. I could have literally taped my left mouse button and just walked around for 40 minutes and the mission would be completed. Alone. On any difficutly. It was quite moronic. Now, I actually have to use a combination of biotics and well placed shots. I have to think what type of weapon to use. I have to use my team mates.

God forbid they make the game less trivial.

[mangosta71]

Hits on different parts of the target causing different effects is a mixed blessing. I like being able to drop a ****er with a quick headshot (was halfway to the achievement before I finished the tutorial), but at the same time it makes ME2 feel even more like a FPS than the first did.

The ammo system making the game "more tactical" point stands for those who consider being forced to charge into the fray spraying assault rifle bullets all over the place because you're out of ammo for your sniper rifle to be the tactical choice. I was afraid I'd only be getting one shot per clip, and I was right. I hate being limited to 10 shots before my favorite weapon is useless.



Edit: Regarding the ammo. I'm really tired of people complaining about the new system. BioWare had to change it. Yes, it's a bit odd for the entire galaxy to have all of it's guns retrofitted into a clip type system in only 2 years, but still. In Mass Effect 1, as a soldier sticking 2 Frictionless Materials into a Spectre class rifle X (HW ... Something) made me a walking, shooting god. I could have literally taped my left mouse button and just walked around for 40 minutes and the mission would be completed. Alone. On any difficutly. It was quite moronic. Now, I actually have to use a combination of biotics and well placed shots. I have to think what type of weapon to use. I have to use my team mates.

God forbid they make the game less trivial.

An alternative - not create such ridiculously OP weapons as the Spectre gear so that players can't build a weapon that doesn't generate heat.

[Calemyr]

A quick question for those who have gotten further than I have (Enlisted Mordin and Archangel, nothing more):

Is there a good place to go to get armor/casual attire? So far I've only found one chest piece and an eyepiece on Omega and the DLC armors can't be customized. I like the fourth casual attire option (reminds me of John Chrichton), but I'd like some more choices. Is there a particularly good store in the game for this, or am I stuck picking one or two items off of random stores?

[Name_Here]

I was really surprised by the game.

I was expecting Mass Effect with a few gameplay, graphic and balance changes to make things better. But this is a full on burn the original to the foundation and make a whole new game. Which is great because the old one had a ton of problems but since I just finished up a 2 day Mass Effect 1 binge the changes are shocking.

[MrPig]

The ammo system making the game "more tactical" point stands for those who consider being forced to charge into the fray spraying assault rifle bullets all over the place because you're out of ammo for your sniper rifle to be the tactical choice. I was afraid I'd only be getting one shot per clip, and I was right. I hate being limited to 10 shots before my favorite weapon is useless.




An alternative - not create such ridiculously OP weapons as the Spectre gear so that players can't build a weapon that doesn't generate heat.

There are upgrades that increase spare ammo capacity. Besides, there's so much ammo scattered everywhere, it's rediculous. I've never been out of ammo between two fights. As far as Spectre gear in the first game; any weapon can be made heat proof with 2 Frictionless Material X installed. Like I said, if you use your team mates wisely(overload shield, pull so they're easier to hit, etc.) ammo isn't an issue.

Armour upgrades are scatted in shops. There are quite a few in the Citadel market. There's probably more scattered around, but I haven't even finished reqruiting my team.

Regarding causal dress, I don't know. I do know however that female Shep and male Shep have different options (or at least 2 of the 4)

[SilverSheriff]

I'm hoping to run around in black Armour pants and a normal shirt.:smalltongue:


Where does this assumption that all gamers have high def plasma-screen TVs come from? I just have the piece of crap the Barracks gave me.

I dunno.

[Toastkart]

I've played for about 10 hours now. I think, so far at least, only have a couple complaints. I feel like I have no survivability. When my shield's go down I rarely have enough time to get behind cover before I get killed. Similarly, I can't count the number of times I've been killed because I had to reload or ran out of clips at the wrong moment.

I'm not particularly fond of the ammo system myself. They may have needed to do something to tone down some of the ridiculousness, but this wasn't it. At the very least, they could have given larger ammo totals so you don't run out of pistol and sniper rifle ammo almost every fight.

Also, why implement a good armor customization system if Sheppard's the only one that gets to use it? It just seems really weird that none of your squad mates wear any armor even though they have kinetic barriers/get shot all the time.

[Calemyr]

You are supposed to be using cover in the first place. Using cover and powers correctly changes the game from infuriating to challenging. Also, don't be afraid to use heavy weapons when in a corner. A well placed missile can really make a difference.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I hear no talk of the fish tank or the fish that can go in it. This is disappointing. Tell about the fishies! Are there sweet alien fish? *can't bring self to think about actual game and what one doesn't have yet*

[Serenity]

I completely disagree that an ammo system was in any way necessary. By definition, it strains credulity by fundamentally altering the way the universe's tech works. The explanation is ridiculous. You could get Geth weaponry in the first game and it didn't work like that--nor were overheat times so punishing that it makes any sort of sense that giving up the unlimited ammo could be considered an upgrade.

They've given up a unique and flavorful mechanic, using a completely ridiculous explanation, to make their guns operate like in any other shooter. The unlimited ammo guns of ME1 neatly sidestepped the tired issue of finding ammo boxes everywhere, they added flavor to the universe. This time around, we get the bog-standard formula, just so a soldier (the class that's all about pure shooting) can't turn his assault rifle into a chaingun in the endgame. Joy.

In the interest of full disclosure: I'm someone of the opinion that inventory management almost never adds to the quality of the game. At best, it doesn't take away. Even survival horror can do fine with minimal-to-no inventory management as Silent Hill 2 proved--you could carry as much ammo and health items as you could find. I'm a guy who downloaded a BG2 mod for limitless item stacking, so I could put all my arrows of generic magical effect in one ammo slot, and only worry about switching them out when I found better versions.

So it seems to me, that either ME2 will be so generous with the 'thermal clips' that it won't have actually changed anything--or, every time I run out, I'll be thinking, "This is so stupid--in the last game, I'd throw out a lockdown power, or duck behind cover and be shooting again in a few seconds. Now, I've gotta switch to a whole new weapon that I'm probably no good at! Great job, Alliance scientists!"

[MrPig]

I play an adept. For the first half or so of the game I was limited to a pistol and an SMG. I used the hand cannon which has a total of 18 bullets (without ammo upgrades). I've never had ammo problems. All it did was force me to use my powers strategically; weaken the enemy with some biotics and then finish it off with a single bullet.

Like I said, the amount of ammo you find during and in between battles makes it essentially the same as ME1.

[Starbuck_II]

What does a soldier do though? They only have ammo.

[MrPig]

Soldiers can also use every weapon type in the game. The difference in weapon ability from ME1 to ME2 is that you don't need to specialize in the weapon you want to use. You are equally good with all of them. So, if a soldier runs out of assualt rifle ammo (something highly unlikely unless you can't hit the broad side of a barn) you are able to switch to something else, or simply use cover and pick up some spare ammo.

[Calemyr]

Actually, I think a major part of the reason the thermal clips and limited fuel were necessary was to give you a sense that you're out from under the support of the council and Alliance, now. Your resources are limited, your mission dangerous, and your chances slim. It's supposed to create a rather desperate feeling where you can no longer just hold down the fire button and blast everything in sight without consequence or go anywhere on a whim. You now have to *think* before you act.

Honestly, having infinite ammo and infinite fuel would have been damaging to the "dark second act" that ME2 was always meant to be.

[Philistine]

According to the splash text on the loading screen, any thermal clip can be used in any weapon. So if you run out with the sniper rifle, you're out of reloads for everything else, too. I haven't tested this personally yet, but if true then the "switch to a different weapon" suggestion is not very helpful.

I deeply dislike the new "ammo" system. People who want to play shooters have lots of options in the marketplace; people who want to play RPGs, not so much. So making this franchise "more shooter-y" was neither required nor desired.

[Name_Here]

According to the splash text on the loading screen, any thermal clip can be used in any weapon. So if you run out with the sniper rifle, you're out of reloads for everything else, too. I haven't tested this personally yet, but if true then the "switch to a different weapon" suggestion is not very helpful.

For some reason it doesn't work this way. You can't switch out a thermal clip for a pistol into a sniper rifle. Each gun even has it's own number of clips that can be carried for that gun.

Which of course makes no freaking sense at all but the ammo isn't in one big pool that you drain from which is what you thought it was.


I deeply dislike the new "ammo" system. People who want to play shooters have lots of options in the marketplace; people who want to play RPGs, not so much. So making this franchise "more shooter-y" was neither required nor desired.

Except Mass Effect was always an Action RPG and at it's core the Action was broken rather profoundly. I'm not advocating for the clip system but I have a bigger problem with the fact that they slapped it on so poorly.

[MrPig]

I deeply dislike the new "ammo" system. People who want to play shooters have lots of options in the marketplace; people who want to play RPGs, not so much. So making this franchise "more shooter-y" was neither required nor desired.

This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying that adding "ammunition" makes the game more shootery, but having a system which can be abused to the point where you can literally tape your mouse button and shoot anything that moves without penalty doesn't? If anything, this adds more of the "tactical" feeling that most RPGs should have.

Like I said, it's not like you have to go ammo hunting, or are in any way handicapped by it. The game simply forces you to make tactical decisions. Do I use an assault rifle when 3 enemies are 100 meters away from me and blow 17 clips to just kill them, or do I shoot them with my sniper? Hell, a single bullet often detonates the numerous explosive canisters and one shots the enemies near by.

As far as the splash text, it's kind of misleading, but the way I interpret it is that each thermal clip is standard one, however once you've packed it in the firearm's ammo storage it becomes "locked" for that weapon. So no, exhausting your sniper rifle doesn't affect any of your other ammo in any way.

[Serenity]

Actually, I think a major part of the reason the thermal clips and limited fuel were necessary was to give you a sense that you're out from under the support of the council and Alliance, now. Your resources are limited, your mission dangerous, and your chances slim. It's supposed to create a rather desperate feeling where you can no longer just hold down the fire button and blast everything in sight without consequence or go anywhere on a whim. You now have to *think* before you act.

Honestly, having infinite ammo and infinite fuel would have been damaging to the "dark second act" that ME2 was always meant to be.

I thought plenty in Mass Effect. I thought about whether it was a good idea to let the Rachni Queen go. I thought about whether to risk using up reinforcements to save the Council with the fate of the Galaxy at stake. I thought about moral dilemmas, how my actions were affecting things. That's interesting. That builds atmosphere.

Slapping on a nonsensical ammo system that contradicts practically everything about how firearms were made in the first game doesn't.

Like I said, in Silent Hill 2, you never run out of inventory space for bullets or health. They still are a limited resource, as is the nature of Survival Horror, but the game built its horror far, far, far more on atmosphere and engaging story than 'Will I have the bullets I need?'

I just honestly don't see what was broken about the action that had anything to do with ammo. That there was basically one place in the game where it was fun and useful to use a Sniper Rifle (and then only if you have a high-end version and invested lots of points)? That needed fixing. That I don't have to run around looking for random ammo boxes? That's a feature, not a bug.

[Starbuck_II]

Like I said, in Silent Hill 2, you never run out of inventory space for bullets or health. They still are a limited resource, as is the nature of Survival Horror, but the game built its horror far, far, far more on atmosphere and engaging story than 'Will I have the bullets I need?'


The beggining Resident Evils had low ammo.

[Serenity]

Your point? I'm not talking about Resident Evil, I'm talking about Silent Hill 2, which demonstrates that inventory management is minimally to non-essential in trying to build a dark atmosphere. And so I would argue the desire to make Mass Effect 2 a 'darker' game is no excuse to nonsensically add an ammo system.

[MrPig]

Your point? I'm not talking about Resident Evil, I'm talking about Silent Hill 2, which demonstrates that inventory management is minimally to non-essential in trying to build a dark atmosphere. And so I would argue the desire to make Mass Effect 2 a 'darker' game is no excuse to nonsensically add an ammo system.

It's clear that you have tunnel vision. As far s I can tell, you haven't even played the game. Everytime someone brings up an argument as to how this was a necessary change, or other games that employed something similar that were RPG proper, you return to your old tired argument of Silent Hill 2 and how it "doesn't make sense within the universe", even though BioWare gave a reasonable enough explanation.

I'm not personally attacking you. I just see that no argument can persuade you to even consider the alternative.

[Laeric]

Your point? I'm not talking about Resident Evil, I'm talking about Silent Hill 2, which demonstrates that inventory management is minimally to non-essential in trying to build a dark atmosphere. And so I would argue the desire to make Mass Effect 2 a 'darker' game is no excuse to nonsensically add an ammo system.


Personally, I like the ammo system and would argue that it is was not nonsensically added. It adds another layer of strategy that did not exist in the first game. I found myself beating ME1 without using many powers or abilities at all. ME2 forces you to integrate your abilities because there is a limited amount of ammo.


It's clear that you have tunnel vision. As far s I can tell, you haven't even played the game. Everytime someone brings up an argument as to how this was a necessary change, or other games that employed something similar that were RPG proper, you return to your old tired argument of Silent Hill 2 and how it "doesn't make sense within the universe", even though BioWare gave a reasonable enough explanation.

I'm not personally attacking you. I just see that no argument can persuade you to even consider the alternative.

+1

[mangosta71]

If you've never run out of ammo, you've never attempted to do the quest to recruit Archangel as a sniping soldier. Guess I'll be browsing the community over the next few days to see if there's a mod to take the ridiculously stupid ammo restriction out.


BioWare gave a reasonable enough explanation.

That's one opinion. Another opinion is that their explanation is blatantly unreasonable and makes absolutely no sense given how weapons functioned in the universe created for the first game.

Sure, in the first game someone could get the top-end weapons and mod them so that they would never overheat (unless they were fighting an enemy with tech powers). But that requires the player to intentionally break the game, and it was only ever an issue with assault rifles anyway given the low rate of fire other weapons had. If Bioware wanted to remove the possibility of the player building such a weapon, all they had to do was not make the assault rifles so heat-efficient in the first place.

[MrPig]

You do realize Archangel's floor is litered with infintely respawning ammo? If you're talking about the part where you need to close the 3 shutters, why are you even bothering to snipe in such close quarters and with so much cover? To me it sounds like your approach is the problem, not the game.

[Laeric]

If you've never run out of ammo, you've never attempted to do the quest to recruit Archangel as a sniping soldier. Guess I'll be browsing the community over the next few days to see if there's a mod to take the ridiculously stupid ammo restriction out.


His safehouse literally has thermal clips stashed everywhere. I played the same way, and I did not run out. Granted there were several times where I would have to leave my cover to go grab another clip, but I never ran completely out.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Zevox]

Edit: Regarding the ammo. I'm really tired of people complaining about the new system. BioWare had to change it. Yes, it's a bit odd for the entire galaxy to have all of it's guns retrofitted into a clip type system in only 2 years, but still. In Mass Effect 1, as a soldier sticking 2 Frictionless Materials into a Spectre class rifle X (HW ... Something) made me a walking, shooting god. I could have literally taped my left mouse button and just walked around for 40 minutes and the mission would be completed. Alone. On any difficutly. It was quite moronic. Now, I actually have to use a combination of biotics and well placed shots. I have to think what type of weapon to use. I have to use my team mates.

God forbid they make the game less trivial.
Or, you know, they could just fix that one specific problem.


Actually, I think a major part of the reason the thermal clips and limited fuel were necessary was to give you a sense that you're out from under the support of the council and Alliance, now. Your resources are limited, your mission dangerous, and your chances slim.
But the explanation they give has nothing to do with having access to Alliance resources - rather, everyone uses clips now, because supposedly it's more efficient since you don't have the cool-down time to deal with. (Which is a weak explanation at best since those cool-down times rarely took much longer than switching out a clip does in this game.)


This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying that adding "ammunition" makes the game more shootery, but having a system which can be abused to the point where you can literally tape your mouse button and shoot anything that moves without penalty doesn't?
Yes. Shooters use ammo limits. RPGs rarely, if ever, do - your bows often get unlimited arrows, and even guns usually lack any ammo limit when they show up in things like Final Fantasy or sci-fi RPGs.

Exploits which make you frickin' uber, on the other hand, are more of a general video game thing, and certainly exist in RPGs. And require you to intentionally use the exploit.


If anything, this adds more of the "tactical" feeling that most RPGs should have.
No, making the different weapons effective at different things and thereby giving you reasons to switch between them - such as what I praised before with one type of pistol being good vs shields, another vs armor - does that. Ammo limits are just annoying.

Zevox

[Thanatos 51-50]

I haven't gotten the game yet, and have gone so far as to spoil myself a bit by watching a playthough on Youtube.
The guy playing is a Solider, and has a maximum of ten spare rounds/heatsinks for the sniper rifle.
Somebody please tell me, that playing as an infiltrator significantly boosts the number of thermal clips I carry for the sniper rifle.

[Serenity]

All right, I'm sorry, I probably am getting a little more heated here than I should. Yes, I haven't played the game yet, and no, I guess I'm not very likely to accept the ammo system as a good change. But let me add that I fully intend to give the game a try when I finally have the chance (which unfortunately probably won't be for a good while on my college budget) and I fully expect to enjoy the hell out of it.

I can see why someone in-universe might want to add Thermal Clips as an option, modifying guns so they could instantly unheat by expending a temporary resource. I do not understand why they would choose to modify their guns so they only functioned with Thermal Clips, and could no longer vent back to functionality over time. this strikes me as a downgrade--or, in the best implementation, where clips are so generously given that running out is rarely a problem, little different in functionality than the original. And it particularly strains my credulity that in the small timeframe between two games, every arms manufacturer in the whole Milky Way switches over to the new technology, and apparently recalled all their old stuff so that its impossible to get an ME 1-style gun.

I do not see, though, how the mention of Resident Evil's ammo/inventory system related to the argument--at least, not just stating that Resident Evil's system was like this.

My argument is not that ammo and inventory management are inherently bad, nor that the lack of them are inherently good, though my general preference is not to have to worry about it too much. I'm just trying to explain that I feel this particular case is bad because it changes established universe lore partway through the story--and further, that I felt that, 'to tell a darker story' was an insufficent reason for such a dramatic change. I used as an analogy (and I'll readily dmit, an imperfect one), a game widely regarded for its dark story, and a classic of the surival horror genre. My point was that in a genre where the conventional wisdom was that limited inventory space, and having to decide what you really needed to carry, was essential to the horror, Silent Hill 2 (and, indeed, most games in the franchise) gave you the ability to carry as much as you could find --and still managed to tell one of the darkest and most compelling stories in modern gaming.

I'm well aware that Resident Evil has inventory management. That was part of my point. So, I probably should have made a polite request for an expansion on what was being argued there, but I feel the statement in itself didn't impact my argument.

[Arcanoi]

I haven't gotten the game yet, and have gone so far as to spoil myself a bit by watching a playthough on Youtube.
The guy playing is a Solider, and has a maximum of ten spare rounds/heatsinks for the sniper rifle.
Somebody please tell me, that playing as an infiltrator significantly boosts the number of thermal clips I carry for the sniper rifle.

Nope. Infiltrators get shafted by the ammo system. Quite badly.

[Name_Here]

I haven't gotten the game yet, and have gone so far as to spoil myself a bit by watching a playthough on Youtube.
The guy playing is a Solider, and has a maximum of ten spare rounds/heatsinks for the sniper rifle.
Somebody please tell me, that playing as an infiltrator significantly boosts the number of thermal clips I carry for the sniper rifle.

Prepare to have your dreams dashed like a child from a poor family on Christmas morning.

Because they don't give a fig about what class you are when they assign ammo slots.

[MrPig]

&Snip* I'm just trying to explain that I feel this particular case is bad because it changes established universe lore partway through the story--and further, that I felt that, 'to tell a darker story' was an insufficent reason for such a dramatic change. *snip snip*

You must hate World of Warcraft then. I'll agree that some sort of hybrid system would've been much better, use thermal clips for quick cooldown until you run out and then use a gimped version of ME1 firing mechanism. Perhaps overheat faster and for a longer period of time. But if I didn't know better, I'd say BioWare was under quite a bit of pressure from EA to release a sequel and may not have had enough time to "perfect" certain things. They listened to the community for the sequel. Perhaps they'll do the same for the 3rd game.


Yes. Shooters use ammo limits. RPGs rarely, if ever, do - your bows often get unlimited arrows, and even guns usually lack any ammo limit when they show up in things like Final Fantasy or sci-fi RPGs.

Fallout 3, BioShock and System Shock 2 all had systems similar to Mass Effect. Only they also had weapon durability. Limiting ammo in a sci-RPG is nothing new.

BG (1& 2), IWD (1 & 2), NWN (1 & 2) also had a "run out of arrows and stand like an idiot or switch your weapon" mechanic. Not sci fi RPGs, but RPGs none the less.

People need to focus less on the "bad" changes and play the damn game. ME1 had far more problems than 2, but people claimed to have played it for the story. The sequel, in my opnion, has a far better storry.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Prepare to have your dreams dashed like a child from a poor family on Christmas morning.

Because they don't give a fig about what class you are when they assign ammo slots.

But theres usually more than ten enemies juicy targets an engagement! And then, after that I have to fall back on my pistol?
It's a good thing Infiltrators get an SMG now, too, I guess.
For a sniper Designated Marksman in general, infinite ammo with (Quick) cool-down time is inherently better than (Very slightly) reducing cool-down time and limiting total ammunition fired.
:smallfurious:

[MrPig]

But theres usually more than ten enemies juicy targets an engagement! And then, after that I have to fall back on my pistol?
It's a good thing Infiltrators get an SMG now, too, I guess.
For a sniper Designated Marksman in general, infinite ammo with (Quick) cool-down time is inherently better than (Very slightly) reducing cool-down time and limiting total ammunition fired.
:smallfurious:

Eh, as you progress through the game, enemies get more and more aggressive to the point you need to use your side arm.

[Calemyr]

As an infiltrator myself, I have to say the ammo is a concern. However, there are some points I have to make:

1) Since there are no weapon skills, you can use every weapon in your inventory to maximum effectiveness. Don't use one weapon to the exclusion of all others. When all else runs dry, resort to the SMG - that thing has loads of ammo.

2) Weapons have the ammo caps, not weapon types. The first pistol you find has a 12 shot mag with a 60 shot cap. The one Mordin gives you has a 6 shot mag with an 18 shot cap. The first sniper rifle has a 1 shot mag and a 10 shot cap while the Incisor (admitedly a bonus item, but still) has a 15 shot mag and a 45 shot cap. This makes picking your weapon a function of more than just what gun does the most damage.

3) Upgrades are available to increase a weapon's capacity. Two upgrades for Heavy Weapons are available early, but there's more later on. Upgrades are very, very important in this game.

4) The point I was trying to make earlier is that they want you to feel pressured, not just by superior numbers or the weight of your decisions, but by a simple need to make every shot count. This is the design reason, not the plot reason, and works very well to make

5) The game's rationale is justified. Reloading thermal clips requires the smallest fraction of the time needed to vent an over-heated weapon, particularly if your weapon gets hacked (curse you Saren!). Disposable heat sinks not only protect you from sabotage but frontload your dps by allowing you to fire more shots up front. (This is not counting the utter cheese of a heatless weapon - cheese I adored, but cheese none-the-less.)

6) All guns but heavy weaponry use the same ammo, and the gun you have equipped is the first to be relfilled. Other guns are reloaded if your equiped gun is full (kinda like later Megaman games). This is handy for keeping your favorite weapon ready and loaded for crazy.

All told, they do it pretty well. If you're playing a soldier, you can get by on pray-and-spray because you have the enough ammo to drown a krogan. If you're an infiltrator, however, you need to make your pistol and sniper rifle shots count, using the SMG when combat gets close and hairy. Infiltrators get that handy cloak to line up their shots (and get a damage boost while cloaked), so they can be more efficient with their ammo, as well as non-ammunition power such as Incinerate and Hack, both of which can be devastatingly effective. This means that every class plays a little differently, which is what they were going for in the first place - before heatless pistols rendered the exercise rather meaningless, at least.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Incisor (admitedly a bonus item, but still) has a 15 shot mag and a 45 shot cap. This makes picking your weapon a function of more than just what gun does the most damage.

Is that the Collector's Edition bonus weapon? Because I per-ordered the Collector's edition and am waiting for it in the mail.
I was under the impression it was going to be an assault rifle.

[Calemyr]

Is that the Collector's Edition bonus weapon? Because I per-ordered the Collector's edition and am waiting for it in the mail.
I was under the impression it was going to be an assault rifle.

There is a collector assault rifle and the Incisor sniper rifle. The Incisor is rather remarkable because it fires three shots at a time. Yeah, that's right, a burst fire sniper rifle. It's been my favorite weapon during my missions on Omega. The ammo system makes it a very good sniper weapon, getting 5 seperate shots off with eac clip, no reloading.

I'm not entirely certain which code unlocked it, to tell the truth. Mine is a pre-ordered digital deluxe download from Direct2Drive.

[Serenity]

Well, I don't care for MMOs, period, so I guess I do.

The Fallout series, Baldur's Gate Series, etc., etc. never had any expectation that ammo would be a problem. It was there from the start, and stayed basically the same.

Mass Effect, on the other hand, started with infinite ammo with a quick cooldown , and included a whole voiced Codex entry about exactly how this works. IMO, this was a particularlty unique and flavorful way of handling the firearms. Now, they've turned it into ammo. Accepting for the sake of argument that the overheating/cooldown mechanic was too forgiving, would it not have been easier to make weapons less heat efficient and/or cooldowns take longer? It achieves the same end, would not require an in-game explanation of why things have changed, and since it would be basically the same system, I can only imagine it would be quicker to program.

[Calemyr]

Serenity, you're just going to have to see it in action. Ammo is far easier to come by than even Fallout 3, and in big shootouts, ammo can be found lining just about every surface in the area.

I know it sounds like a cataclysmicly stupid idea, but it actually works pretty well. Most really good ideas are like that. So are most really bad ideas, for that matter. You'll just have to decide for yourself which one this is.

[Toastkart]

You are supposed to be using cover in the first place. Using cover and powers correctly changes the game from infuriating to challenging. Also, don't be afraid to use heavy weapons when in a corner. A well placed missile can really make a difference.

You say that like I don't know that. There have been a number of times where I've opened a door and was immediately under fire and died before I could even reach cover. Krogan's also seem to have an annoying habit of just marching around my cover.



I hear no talk of the fish tank or the fish that can go in it. This is disappointing. Tell about the fishies! Are there sweet alien fish? *can't bring self to think about actual game and what one doesn't have yet*
I got a space hamster.



That's one opinion. Another opinion is that their explanation is blatantly unreasonable and makes absolutely no sense given how weapons functioned in the universe created for the first game.

Sure, in the first game someone could get the top-end weapons and mod them so that they would never overheat (unless they were fighting an enemy with tech powers). But that requires the player to intentionally break the game, and it was only ever an issue with assault rifles anyway given the low rate of fire other weapons had. If Bioware wanted to remove the possibility of the player building such a weapon, all they had to do was not make the assault rifles so heat-efficient in the first place.

I agree. I find the change to be more tedious than strategic.



2) Weapons have the ammo caps, not weapon types. The first pistol you find has a 12 shot mag with a 60 shot cap. The one Mordin gives you has a 6 shot mag with an 18 shot cap. The first sniper rifle has a 1 shot mag and a 10 shot cap while the Incisor (admitedly a bonus item, but still) has a 15 shot mag and a 45 shot cap. This makes picking your weapon a function of more than just what gun does the most damage.

3) Upgrades are available to increase a weapon's capacity. Two upgrades for Heavy Weapons are available early, but there's more later on. Upgrades are very, very important in this game.

I figured this was the case. However, as I mentioned before, I'm only about 10 hours into the game, and I've found very little in the way of weapon/ammo upgrades.

Also, the Incisor sounds nice. I hope there's a comparable sniper rifle in the regular game.

[Calemyr]

You say that like I don't know that. There have been a number of times where I've opened a door and was immediately under fire and died before I could even reach cover. Krogan's also seem to have an annoying habit of just marching around my cover.

I was just relaying a lesson I learned painfully. Doors take time to open. Take cover during that time in case there's a surprise on the other side.

Incinerate, Warp, and the fire ammo are good against krogan. All three disable their regeneration, while incinerate is also very against armor, which most krogan have in spades.

[Serenity]

Well, for all my talk about preferring minimal inventory management, I don't really doubt that the gameplay will be good. I don't really object to ammo systems, per se. Like everything else, they've got their place. And I guess if every weapon has unique magazines, that could be a plus. My issue is more that it seems such an obtrusive change to a mechanic I had never realized anyone considered a problem until I read this thread. Maybe when I finally have the money, time, and regular desktop computer access to finally play the damn thing, I'll immediately see what those Alliance scientists were thinking. But just reading about it, it sure sounds like a downgrade.

[Calemyr]

Well, on that one, you have me. I must admit it's a very drastic change from ME1. However, it should be noted that Bioware attempted to refine absolutely every valid complaint anyone was able to lodge on their forum. Elevators, ammo, inventory, cover, health, Mako, powers, levels, faces, romance, even plot pacing... everything they could think of, they remade based on public opinion. That is a very special thing, and something I'd rather support than criticise.

The fact that it all comes off working much better than the original makes that just all that much easier.

[Starbuck_II]

Do enemies have this ammo issue? Will they run out?
Or are they infinite like some games do (make only you have issue)?

[Calemyr]

I haven't seen them have ammo issues. If they had the same numbers, however, they wouldn't live long enough to expend them in most cases.

[MrPig]

Enemies die quickly, so I never had to test their ammo supplies. What I noticed is that either your party members don't run out of ammo, or they share in your ammo gain when you walk over a clip. Regardless, they never switch their weapons unless you tell them to and they never stop firing.

I suggest that you forget anything you read about ME2 and just go into with an open mind. Think of it as a story continuation to ME1, but a whole new game because it sure as hell feels like it.

[Zevox]

Fallout 3, BioShock and System Shock 2 all had systems similar to Mass Effect. Only they also had weapon durability. Limiting ammo in a sci-RPG is nothing new.
Fallout 3 is very openly a FPS-based RPG (which is one reason why I don't care for it). Bioshock I have never heard described as an RPG, just an FPS. System Shock 2 I've never heard of.

And really, do you want me to respond with a list of RPGs with ranged weapons and no ammo limits? I should think if you know anything about RPG video games you know full well it'll be a lot longer than any list of ones you could come up with that do use them (hell, I can name two sci-fi RPG series off the top of my head that didn't use them, one a Bioware series). My whole point was that RPGs almost never use them, and as such using them makes the game more shootery. That a small handful of RPGs do use them doesn't disprove that.


BG (1& 2), IWD (1 & 2), NWN (1 & 2) also had a "run out of arrows and stand like an idiot or switch your weapon" mechanic. Not sci fi RPGs, but RPGs none the less.
Because all of those were using D&D mechanics, which does use arrow limits due to wanting to be more realistic in that regard.


People need to focus less on the "bad" changes and play the damn game.
Oh, I am. As I said in my first post in this thread, I have mixed reactions to the game, with not liking the ammo system being only one of them. I'm simply disagreeing with you that the ammo limits were in any way necessary or at all a good thing.

Zevox

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm just waiting for my box to come in so I can "shut up and enjoy the game."

I'm allowed to not like what they did with the ammo, though.
As a point of referance, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it had the original game had ammunition.

[Gralamin]

So, I take it this has become the ME2 thread, in general?

I've started playing and have a few questions.

Is it just me, or are their fewer side quests? Granted, I've only headed to the citadel and then back to Omega to go get me some Tech upgrades, so I might not have the chance yet.

Also, because I'm Crazy, I'm going with a sentinel on Insanity my first play through. Any good Build Advice? So far, I've Been focusing on Tech Armor (Keeps me alive), a bit on Overload, and all the rest into Defender. Also, are there any companions that work especially well with Sentinels? (I already know who they all are, because I like checking, so you won't spoil anything on me).

[Thanatos 51-50]

Cut the 's' out of your opening spoiler tag to get it working. :smallwink:

[Zevox]

]Is it just me, or are their fewer side quests?
I hope so. I haven't gotten too far yet either, but haven't run into all that many yet, and that would be an improvement in my opinion. The first game had too many of them, and too little main story in comparison. And it sure didn't help that the areas most of them took place in were all chosen from the same two or three room designs.

Zevox

[Gralamin]

Cut the 's' out of your opening spoiler tag to get it working. :smallwink:

This is what happens when I post while tired.

[Name_Here]

But theres usually more than ten enemies juicy targets an engagement! And then, after that I have to fall back on my pistol?

In this game the combat is quick and mercyless. I haven't run out of Ammo for the sniper rifle yet and I'm pretty far in the game. It is annoying the way they did it but it's not really that annoying once you get in it.


It's a good thing Infiltrators get an SMG now, too, I guess.
For a sniper Designated Marksman in general, infinite ammo with (Quick) cool-down time is inherently better than (Very slightly) reducing cool-down time and limiting total ammunition fired.
:smallfurious:

The Sniper rifle is still awesome and this game allows you to make the best of it.

Improvements like how it actually 1 shots people, there are areas where you aren't face to face with the person you're trying to snipe and Shepard can look down the scope without looking like he's drunk off his face.

The shot limit isn't the only change they made I actually think it's hands down much better than the sniping in ME1.

[† Dran †]

In response to the side quest stuff, ive found heaps. Look for them, their a lot like me1 in a way with talking to the right person at the right time and bam side quest ahoy!! Most of them are multi-part as well. So yeah... All are optional as well, but real fun none the less. Particularly loving a weapon found on one such side mission.

Oh and i play an infiltrator, whilst ive had some issues with running out of ammo with the stock standard sniper rifle it just means i have to know who and what to shoot with it. Oh and Upgrades are your friend.

[Calemyr]

I've enlisted four allies now (Mordin, Grunt, Archangel, Zaeed) and done Zaeed's personal quest, and I have to agree they altered the quest setup a bit. I've found three fetch quests in the ship (the doctor, the cook, the engineer). All of them are pretty straight forward and have pretty good endings. The Dr. Chakwas one ends with you getting drunk with her and trading stories from the Normandy. The camera even wobbles unsteadily for a while after the you leave the med bay.

The optional quests are a fewer, but bigger and much better fleshed out so far. Being dropped at the quest site instead of having to drive there is a nice feature. If Zaeed's personal quest is any indication, the personal quests will be very interesting and quite illuminating. Of course, Zaeed is DLC, so he may not fit the mold. I did find one quest that felt fairly ME1-like, though: to find the Cerberus operative in the Omega cluster, you land outside the base and just shoot your way through. Even this, however, had its own base map rather than the one-size-fits-all style seen last time.

Also, a tip for anyone worried about ammo: go to the Citidel at your earliest convenience. Check the stores (I think floor 26 had it, but I'm not sure), because there's an arm piece that increases your stored ammo by 10%. Since you can't customize dlc armor, you'll have to use your custom costume, but it's a cheap and easy way to boost your ammo cap, at least by a little.

EDIT: One last note, I now don't care about the ammo issue at all. Any amount of frustration is worth making the end of Zaeed's quest possible.

[mangosta71]

Yeah, I scrapped the soldier playthrough before I finished Omega and restarted with an Infiltrator. Picked up magic missile incinerate early and it's a godsend. I use my sniper rifle to snap off headshots on targets with heavy armor and shields, but incinerate is my Jessie.

[Calemyr]

Max out incinirate and it can go from Magic Missile to Fireball - or just do even more damage, whichever you prefer.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Yeah, I scrapped the soldier playthrough before I finished Omega and restarted with an Infiltrator. Picked up magic missile incinerate early and it's a godsend. I use my sniper rifle to snap off headshots on targets with heavy armor and shields, but incinerate is my Jessie.

According to Amazon, my game is do to come in on Monday, but this is something I was already thinking of picking up.
I'm planning on making the Tactical Cloak my primary skill I dump all my points in, followed by Incinerate and Cryo ammo, in that order.

[Calemyr]

All the infiltrator skills are really nice.
* Incinerate is an ammoless power that is devastating against armored and regen creatures. Maxed out it either gives you a ~25% damage boost or has an area of effect.
* AI Hacking is lets you turn mechs against your enemies, allowing you to conserve ammo. Maxed out it either gives you an increased duration or an area of effect.
* Disruptor ammo is good against shields and mechs. Maxed out it either gives you the ability to overload enemy shields and mechs with bullets or allows you to give your entire squad disruptor ammo.
* Cryo ammo has a chance of freezing unarmored opponents, letting you kill them with one more shot. Maxed out it either gives you a longer duration on the freeze effect or allows you to give your entire squad cryo ammo.
* Tactical Cloak lets you sneak, gives you a damage bonus, and gives you time to set up headshots even in hairy combat situations. Only lasts 5-6 seconds, though. Maxed out it either gives you an even larger damage bonus or increases duration to 8 seconds.
* Infiltrator gives you a lot of little bonuses. For me, the most notable one was a negotiation bonus (the new equivalent to charm/intimidate). Maxed out it either increases this negotiation bonus or increases the damage bonus.

I've found all of them extremely useful, which has made it very hard for me to max any of them out (I only have Infiltrator maxed at the moment for the negotiation bonuses).

It's also worth noting that every character can recruit has a special skill you can add to your own character once you've earned their loyalty. You can only have one active at a time, however, and you change it by purchasing the repeatable Special Training upgrade in Mordin's office. Any points you spend on special training stick: if you buy three pips in Zaeed's special and then switch to Miranda's, you get three pips there as well.

[mangosta71]

Max out incinirate and it can go from Magic Missile to Fireball - or just do even more damage, whichever you prefer.

Yeah, I was more referring to the way the projectile tracks moving targets, and the way you can aim high or to the side and have it arc over/around their cover if you aim just right.

Tactical cloak is a beautiful thing, too. The reason my soldier kept dying was the guy with the flamethrower on Omega - even in cover, it hit me and knocked me back so I was staggering into the full stream. Add in the various small arms fire from his little friends, and there was nothing the soldier could do. The infiltrator went into stealth and gave that bastard a sniper rifle round between the eyes.

[MrPig]

If Zaeed's personal quest is any indication, the personal quests will be very interesting and quite illuminating. Of course, Zaeed is DLC, so he may not fit the mold.

Honestly, I found his personal quest to be the least fun.