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View Full Version : Why was "knock back" never a combat maneuver in the game?



harpy
2009-12-23, 10:30 AM
You know the move, you've seen it in countless movies where someone delivers an awesome punch, backhand, what have you... and the guy that gets hit gets thrown back and lands on their back, or crashes into a wall and slumps down.

Why was this never part of the basic design of 3rd edition? They added in several other combat maneuvers. Bull Rush does the shoving, Overrun or Trip can make people prone, but why wasn't this well known trope part of the core dynamic of the game?

Sure, we've had feats and monsters over the years that sprinkle this effect in, and I'm sure with the copious amounts of powers in 4E that some kind of effect like this is present now, but I'm just scratching my head why there wasn't something to the effect of:

You hit target hard, they fly back 1+ squares and are prone.

It wouldn't be an easy thing to do, and Pathfinder might not have been able to handle it with their streamlined system, but in the world of sub-systems that was 3.0/3.5 it just seems like this ought to have been baked into the system.

Gamerlord
2009-12-23, 10:31 AM
There IS bull rush IIRC.

EDIT: never mind, doesn't answer your question.

Eloel
2009-12-23, 10:33 AM
Knockback is a feat. Really, you need to be trained for that type of stunt, a wizard won't be able to do that without assistance.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 10:35 AM
It is core. Awesome Blow, in the Monster Manual.

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-23, 10:37 AM
Mechanics. We've seen how powerful and useful a tripping fighter can be. A tripping fighter that can control the placement of their opponents while mechanically having the same advantages?

WotC probably decided that they didn't need to try balancing something like that out, and I agree.

EDIT: I believe the OP was asking why it wasn't part of the core MECHANIC, like Bull Rush/Overrun/Trip. If the question was why doesn't it exist at ALL, it does, in a number of feats.

ken-do-nim
2009-12-23, 10:43 AM
The 2E book that 3E combat grew out of had it. It was called Combat & Tactics. 2 very simple rules contained what you are looking for:

1. If you hit an opponent and he was unable to hit you, at the end of the round you could push him back (he gets to choose the square he is pushed back to, you get to choose whether to follow or not if no longer adjacent).
2. Each weapon had a knockdown rating. Each hit had a chance to knock the opponent down.

WOTC probably decided it extended combat rounds too much.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 10:49 AM
It is core. Awesome Blow, in the Monster Manual.

And the SRD! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow)

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 10:54 AM
Yeah, that sort of thing is much better for big monsters. Outside of hollywood, a punch or slash is unlikely to make you move much.

Mastikator
2009-12-23, 11:00 AM
Awesome blow requires you to be large or larger and your enemy to be at least two size categories smaller. Not exactly feasible for PC's

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 11:02 AM
Yeah, that sort of thing is much better for big monsters. Outside of hollywood, a punch or slash is unlikely to make you move much.
Then again, it should work just fine for human PCs place-kicking kobolds.

Ninja'd! Okay, so Awesome Blow is for the enemy ogre to be smacking halflings and gnomes around, and even without the Large requirement a human PC couldn't boot a kobold across the room. Shame.

Project_Mayhem
2009-12-23, 12:43 PM
Yeah, that sort of thing is much better for big monsters. Outside of hollywood, a punch or slash is unlikely to make you move much.

Never fought anyone who knows tai-chi I'm guessing?

I've seen people pushed back several meters from standing.

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-23, 12:52 PM
Never fought anyone who knows tai-chi I'm guessing?

I've seen people pushed back several meters from standing.

There is like a 90% chance that most of the people posting on these forums have, in fact, not entered combat with masters of martial arts.

Just saying.

If we're talking Tai-Chi, then we're talking something more along the lines of martial adepts from ToB, or things that require intense training and careful set up that can be represented by feats.

Gorgondantess
2009-12-23, 12:55 PM
If we're talking Tai-Chi, then we're talking something more along the lines of martial adepts from ToB, or things that require intense training and careful set up that can be represented by feats.

And setting sun definitely has something like the OP described.

Project_Mayhem
2009-12-23, 02:22 PM
There is like a 90% chance that most of the people posting on these forums have, in fact, not entered combat with masters of martial arts.

Just saying.

If we're talking Tai-Chi, then we're talking something more along the lines of martial adepts from ToB, or things that require intense training and careful set up that can be represented by feats.

Fair point - I'm now used to having my arse handed to me by my housemate on a regular basis.

Crafty Cultist
2009-12-23, 02:49 PM
There is a knock back feat, I beleive. it allows you to bull rush someone back 5ft on a successful melee attack. it was in miniatures handbook and possibly complete warrior

AslanCross
2009-12-23, 05:49 PM
For some reason it's not represented in core apart from Awesome Blow, which is only for the big guys.

Apart from Knock Back, which has already been mentioned, Tome of Battle has several:

1. Charging Minotaur. It's a bull rush, yes, but it's a high-impact version that sends the guy skidding across the ground away from you and you don't have to remain in contact with him.

2. Colossus Strike. Pretty high level, but it does send the guy flying.

3. The Setting Sun throws. Even little guys can use their Dex bonus instead of their strength to trip the guy and send him flying, landing prone.