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Burley
2009-12-23, 12:13 PM
My buddy wants to make a character (Pathfinder Alchemist) focusing on the Alchemist poison crafting abilities.
I've always considered poison-making to be a bit wasteful, as it's a one time use item that costs a large bit of money to affect a single target, to a variable degree.
I don't really want to ruin the idea for him, but I'd also like him to be aware of the amount of time and money he'll be spending per target.

Can anybody whip up some cost comparisons to either back me up, or shut me up?

Signmaker
2009-12-23, 12:24 PM
Most 'good' poisons cost about 1000(ish) gp, or within that market range. This is comparable to buying a 5th level scroll (1125 gp). However, you're likely to get more bang out of your buck with the scroll than the poison.

Poisons make great accessories on creature-light campaigns, I will have to admit, because you're allowed A. Downtime and B. Opportunity to compile poison. The second you start to hit a steady flow of creatures, however, you're beginning to run behind on expenditures.

If he REALLY wants to run with the poison idea? Suggest that he uses minor poisons like Drow Poison (Cheap, Low DC, but useful if it works) on mook/brutes, and save the really expensive stuff for BBEGs, with the warning that poison immunity/high fort saves aren't really all that hard to come by, so he should adjust his character to be able to determine these vital attributes before he tries to stab the bad guy.

Additionally, suggest he uses ammo unless he either has A. A lot of weapons that aren't ammo or B. The ability to apply poison as a move, swift, or free action. Applying poison mid-combat is a waste of time.

jiriku
2009-12-23, 12:27 PM
The costs (and risks) for using poison in the DMG are really set with the intent of making poison impractical to use. If you want poison to be more practical, lower the cost.

Telonius
2009-12-23, 12:34 PM
As written in the DMG and PHB, poison is not a very good or practical strategy. Without Complete Adventurer's updates, it would be practically impossible to gather the stuff.

Shameless self-plug: I put together a few homebrew feats and a PrC relating to poison use (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89314) awhile back.

Doug Lampert
2009-12-23, 03:14 PM
The costs (and risks) for using poison in the DMG are really set with the intent of making poison impractical to use. If you want poison to be more practical, lower the cost.

Historical poisons that you could put on a weapon and have a real chance of it doing ANY GOOD AT ALL during the course of a battle come down to a choise between curare, curare, just possibly curare, or of course you could use curare. If you weren't in a particular part of South America you were SoL. You could coat your weapon with human feces, making the metal corrode far faster and giving a SLIGHTLY greater chance of the wound infecting (like either of those will happen in D&D land).

Point is that there's really no more historical precedent in any of the cultures D&D land is stolen from for effective weapon poison than there is for effective magic that includes throwing arround fireballs.

You don't need to include effective poison to be "realistic" or "reasonable" or anything else of the sort. Poison in D&D land is purely made up. The decision of the designers was to include it, but make it relatively ineffective except for (some) monsters. If you change that you're messing with the alleged ballance of the system, so be sure you WANT poison to be more effective prior to making any change to make it more effective and be aware that if it's too much better than what's in the DMG you'll need a reason hardly anyone was using it in the past. As is, the lack of poisoned weapons for most NPCs and weapon using monsters really more or less explains itself.

awa
2009-12-23, 03:42 PM
now hold on historical poison saw a great deal of use in some regions such as south America and India. All you need is a species of sufficiently poisonous animal and the knowledge of how to get the poison out of the animal and on to your arrows and your good. And human feces on an arrow particularly when allowed to rust in was basically a death sentence if you were hit no tetanus shot in this time period.

Personal i would allow a charecter with the right ranks in knowledge to harvest poison from poisonous creatures that will reduce the price of acquiring poisons.

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 04:00 PM
The average monster fort save is around 3 + CR. PCs get about 4 + 1/2 level or 2 + 1/3 level, but items add maybe another 1/3 level. There are several poisons around 100 gp a pop and DCs in the low teens, like DC 13 drow knockout poison for 75 gp. With multiple bow attacks, one is bound to land. By contrast SoDs tend to have a 50:50 chance of landing. Better, but you only get 1 shot per round. Any opposition to poisons probably comes from high level optimization, miserly PCs/DMs or encounters that are so easy that no expendable is acceptable or needed to win. Poison is really quite powerful at the right levels. From actual play, a group I was in learned the hard way when it was in the hands of enemies. Other poisons besides drow poison are probably best with coordinated hit and run strikes, which are complicated but doable and the save DCs are higher.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-23, 04:37 PM
Poison is generally too expensive and too low DC to be useful, but there are ways around that. If you're going to be using poison regularly, you need to craft it, cast Minor Creation, harvest it from an animal companion, get it from the wilderness with Knowledge (nature) checks, or something similar. Buying it isn't cost-effective.
There are a lot of ways to increase a poison's DC, reduce your enemy's saves, or both. Use them.

Drow Poison is often the best option, since it's cheap and takes an enemy out of the fight immediately. Use that chance to coup-de-grace it. At higher levels when Drow Poison isn't cutting it even with DC increasers, use either Con-damagers or poisons targeting whatever stat your opponent relies on (Int for wizards, etc.)

The Toxic weapon enhancement (DotU) is good, as is the Assassination weapon enhancement (Cityscape). Virulent (DotU), which makes the poison's secondary effect happen after 5 rounds instead of 10, is very useful in any fight that'll go that long. Combining Virulent with Black Lotus Extract will take out most humanoids within 5 rounds guaranteed.

Anyway, use this handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)

Skorj
2009-12-23, 05:20 PM
Is there any historical usage of poison applied to a weapon, against a target larger than a 5-pound monkey, being useful during a fight? Sure, it's been a staple of fiction for centuries, but it's mostly just legend. Have you seen films of hunters using curare? They have to chase a small monkey through the woods for quite some time (hundred+ melee rounds), putting dart after dart into the thing until it evenually falls from a tree. And 5 pounds may be way too high an estimate for the monkey.

As has been said above, the DMG prices poison far out of the range of practicality for PCs, but not quite so high that an opponent might have 1-2 doses for use against the party (naturally, those are the only doses the NPC ever purchased).

bosssmiley
2009-12-23, 05:23 PM
Poison: it's a save-or-suck/die effect you have to pay for every time you use it, and you have to make a "too dumb to live" poison yourself check. Does Mr Wizard have to pay and run the risk of death every time he casts his save-or-(w/e)?

And that is why poisons by RAW in D&D really aren't worth it.

awa
2009-12-23, 06:34 PM
yeah poison was regularly used in warfare but the thing is pcs don't want war poison they want hunting poison and here's why. Poison used in warfare usually killed slowly poison while poison used for hunting kills quickly, the reason is they have diffrent goals, with the hunting poison you want the target to die (or be disabled) quickly so you don't lose it and you want the meat to be edible after words so snake poison is an excellent hunting poison.
The ideal war poison killed slowly and horrible causing the victim to rot from the inside out or **** themselves to death so that their allies would lose morale. the hunting arrow will kill one man (a man who's likely already been taken out of the fight becuase hes been shot with an arrow) the war poisons going to destroy the morale of all his friends and their going to have to waste resources trying to care for him.

But for dungeons and dragons the concerns are diffrent the pcs want to be able to take out their target quickly becuase most fights are over so fast

also other then maybe knives and assassinations your not going to see poison on melee weapons just missile weapons

the Indians snake venom arrows against Alexanders forces, the Scythians were also famous for their use of poison, as were many of the tribes of south America so their is plenty of historical evidence of poisons use in warfare just most of it is not perciesly what pcs are looking for in a poison and most it is not in use during the medieval ages.

taltamir
2009-12-23, 06:52 PM
poison, as written, is pathetic...
it costs ridiculous amounts of money for pathetic damage.

there is just absolutely no viability to poison as written...

which is why you should change the writing... beef poisons up and make them really cheap.

Bob
2009-12-23, 10:19 PM
Well, irl toxins are either harvested or, what?, synthesized?

as someone has said, it would make things alot cheaper if there was a way for the player to make the poisons himself, while i do see this as being either a knowledge check over a dead or captured animal, or an alchemy check over a beaker, this ability should atleast require the investment of a feat.

that said, i suppose i'm off to scrutinize telonious's homebrew.

Grumman
2009-12-23, 10:36 PM
as someone has said, it would make things alot cheaper if there was a way for the player to make the poisons himself, while i do see this as being either a knowledge check over a dead or captured animal, or an alchemy check over a beaker, this ability should atleast require the investment of a feat.
:smallconfused: Craft (poison-making) already exists, and can already be used to do those things.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-23, 11:26 PM
Get a power stone of Psionic Minor Creation. UPD DC 25 to activate it blindly, it costs 25gp, and it can get you a whole lot of good poison (Black Lotus Venom, for instance).

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-23, 11:37 PM
Get a power stone of Psionic Minor Creation. UPD DC 25 to activate it blindly, it costs 25gp, and it can get you a whole lot of good poison (Black Lotus Venom, for instance).Only lasts for 1 hour. You probably ought to play a manifester in any case, as you can create a ton of this stuff basically at will (and really quickly if you get yourself the Linked Power metapsionic feat).

Best way to play a poisoner, especially if you're necropolitan or a warforged.

awa
2009-12-23, 11:49 PM
irl most poisons your going to see are just harvested from animals or plants
but some will be modified to make them more deadly like the Scythians which if i recall correctly was a combination of feces, rotten flesh, blood and concentrated snake venom, placed underground for a length of time (i don't remember how long) this was a brutal combination of poison and disease that was basically a death sentence

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 12:20 AM
Hmm, I have an idea.

Given that the only time poison is even remotely worth it is when it's free (psionic minor creation). Why not remake the system in a method poison is always free?

Something like this:To create a poison you select a base (1 con damage injury poison at fort save 13) at Craft:poison making (or alchemy) DC 15 to make (example) and by increasing the craft DC you could augment it to boost the save DC, increase the con damage or whatever.

Poison would be free to make (beyond time), but goes bad after a few days (could be increased by increasing the craft DC) to prevent stockpiling.

Good idea? Bad Idea?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:09 AM
Well, irl toxins are either harvested or, what?, synthesized?

as someone has said, it would make things alot cheaper if there was a way for the player to make the poisons himself, while i do see this as being either a knowledge check over a dead or captured animal, or an alchemy check over a beaker, this ability should atleast require the investment of a feat.

that said, i suppose i'm off to scrutinize telonious's homebrew.

still not worth it... the harvested poison is either crap and not worth their time harvesting... or worth so much GP that they can go buy a kingdom if they sold it instead of adventuring...
or just buy themselves a lot of expensive magical gear that is more effective than said poison.


Hmm, I have an idea.

Given that the only time poison is even remotely worth it is when it's free (psionic minor creation). Why not remake the system in a method poison is always free?

Something like this:To create a poison you select a base (1 con damage injury poison at fort save 13) at Craft:poison making (or alchemy) DC 15 to make (example) and by increasing the craft DC you could augment it to boost the save DC, increase the con damage or whatever.

Poison would be free to make (beyond time), but goes bad after a few days (could be increased by increasing the craft DC) to prevent stockpiling.

Good idea? Bad Idea?

that is the basis of one of the possible fixes that came up last time it was discussed...

if poison has no sale or buy value.. a character invests feats / skills to create (for free, or vastly reduced cost) their own poisons which they cannot sell...

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-24, 02:12 AM
Either go shaper and synthesize poison through psionic minor creation, or play a psychic warrior that can poison his own weapons through his manifesting. Really, go look at prevenom, prevenom weapon, truevenom, and truevenom weapon and tell me he isn't.

Also: druid.

Eee! It's Astralvenomfire!!!

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:16 AM
oh, there is ONE time where poison is worth it...
minor creation...

take 1 dose of a poison (pay the exhubrant price)... use minor (or better) creation to 1 cubic foot/CL of the sample material (you must have a sample material)....

While it only lasts a few hours, food created in such a manner nourishes anyone who consumes it, poison created kills whatever is exposed to it, etc...

1 cubic foot of water is 957.44 ounces... your venom might be more dense so you are not actually producing 1000 doses per CL, but its still a ridonculous amount of poison.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-24, 04:16 AM
At mid-high levels, spending some cash on a large supply of weak (low DC) poison for an archer is actually a really good plan, since a nat 1 is an auto-fail. hit with lots of arrows that have a chance of doing 1d2/1d4/1d6 stat damage

Ormur
2009-12-24, 09:37 AM
Weren't poisons mostly used to assassinate people, not in combat. The guy using the poison doesn't want to place himself in any danger and he doesn't have to be at the same level as the target, just sneaky. Can poisons be useful in situations like that in D&D, using poisons that have to be ingested to kill some NPC aristocrats or even PC's?

Tehnar
2009-12-24, 10:56 AM
Poisons are considered to be the realm of the DM. Now if you plan on using poisons as a PC your DM probably won't let you use spells to replicate vast amounts of poisons.

As a poison crafter you have the option of crating poisons at 1/6th the market price if you have the raw ingredients readily available. Normal crafting makes you spend 1/3 of the market price, which is still a discount.

The benefits of poison is that if you are smart, it doesn't take a action to apply. Any projectiles or even thrown weapons are good choices. Basically for a little money you are doing your thing (shooting) and now your arrows have a added effect.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:09 PM
Weren't poisons mostly used to assassinate people, not in combat. The guy using the poison doesn't want to place himself in any danger and he doesn't have to be at the same level as the target, just sneaky. Can poisons be useful in situations like that in D&D, using poisons that have to be ingested to kill some NPC aristocrats or even PC's?

weren't used where?
IRL poison use in combat is still used effectively in some places in the world... blow dart with poison.
in DnD it is impractical due to cost.

Asheram
2009-12-24, 02:56 PM
Poison is a lovely little thing with the right supplements, (http://www.bluedevilgames.com/poisoncraft_main.htm) otherwise, it's easy not to bother.
Poison is cool... it's Really cool, but it's more of a DM toy than anything for players to get themselves into.

But again, poisons isn't something you should use on every encounter, it's far too expensive. Poisons is something you have in wait for the BBEG, or atleast the BBEG's right-hand man. Then you start making money.

Ashiel
2009-12-24, 03:05 PM
In my campaigns, I have at least one player who swears by poisons. I'm also rather fond of them. I will, however, be the first to admit the majority of them cost waaaaay to much for their benefits.

That being said, the rules for making them function just like any other item. Craft (Poison) or maybe even Craft (Alchemy) should do just fine. The prices are, often, much better if you can craft them for 1/3 the market price. The absolute favorite of the poisons is probably tranquilizer (drow) poison, because of it's effect. I've had players drop the darnedest stuff with drow poison. At worst, it's always a 5% chance to drop an enemy.

I generally find poison (and disease) works better from the perspective of the NPCs more often than not. NPCs come and go, but poison lasts forever! Ok, not forever, but it can feel like it. Now, players can whittle down NPCs with poison and even disease, but it's more difficult and requires a bit more of a living world, and doesn't lend itself well to random encounters.

That being said, using minor creation to make poisons is so incredibly effective that it's staggering. Black Lotus is a literal death sentence at low levels and still incredibly dangerous even at mid to high levels. Even without Poison Use, there exist lots of ways to get around poisoning yourself. Several tried and true methods exist, but the simplest ways are astral construct and unseen servant for applying the poisons. The 5% chance to poison yourself in combat can also be negated through finding an effective method of delivery.

Truthfully, my players don't use minor creation -> Black Lotus cheese because we have something of a gentleman's agreement. If it's that easy, everyone will do it, and "everyone" includes NPCs. :smalltongue:

That being said, they did 1HKO an Otyugh with a drow poisoned arrow when they were 2nd level. That was pretty cool. :smallsmile:

Food for thought. :smallamused:

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:13 PM
drow poison seems to be 75gp for making the target sleep...
crafting poison is different than alchemcy crafting.. while alchemy costs 1/3 the price, poison costs 1/6 to craft.

so its 12.5gp per dose of drow poison... I guess if you find other good poisons like it you are good to go....
there is, however, the requirement that you must have the "ingredients on hand" to craft poison... so it is GP cost + ingredients... so where do you get the ingredients?

Ashiel
2009-12-24, 03:30 PM
drow poison seems to be 75gp for making the target sleep...
crafting poison is different than alchemcy crafting.. while alchemy costs 1/3 the price, poison costs 1/6 to craft.

so its 12.5gp per dose of drow poison... I guess if you find other good poisons like it you are good to go....
there is, however, the requirement that you must have the "ingredients on hand" to craft poison... so it is GP cost + ingredients... so where do you get the ingredients?

I dunno if you're getting that info out of a sourcebook somewhere, but I'm going with the basic rules for the Craft skill, so my answer is the 1/3 of the market value IS the materials, since obviously you must know how to acquire the materials in the first place (maybe to synthesize a similar poison).

To re-iterate, my previous post is assuming a minimum of Core.

onthetown
2009-12-24, 03:35 PM
I find poison is basically pointless as long as you have a wizard or sorcerer in the party; most of the effects I've seen from poisons just mimic spells. It's like an expensive hobby.

They work well if you're playing a diplomatic campaign as an antagonistm though... but isn't that usually the DM's job?

Since he apparently has his heart set on being a poison-user, I'd tweak the rules a little to make it cheaper for him, and come up with some really interesting poisons and effects. Real world history probably has a few ideas lying around the books.

Edit: Though they are rather useful for bribing NPCs: "I sneaked some poison into your drink; tell me the secrets or I won't give you the antidote." Though, you have to be in a campaign that focuses on people rather than monsters.

Crow
2009-12-24, 05:28 PM
Give your player opportunities to harvest his own poison every once in a while. There are numerous creatures the team can come up against that have natural poisons, and you can even have him stumble across poisonous plants during travel every so often if he keeps his eyes open.

Poisons aren't all that useful if you're having to spend money on them. There are certainly better ways to spend it. Bt if you're getting it for free, it can be a nice added bonus to a character's arsenal.

Ormur
2009-12-24, 09:15 PM
weren't used where?
IRL poison use in combat is still used effectively in some places in the world... blow dart with poison.
in DnD it is impractical due to cost.

Sure, but when I think of poisoning people I always think of paranoid rulers with food tasters and people trying to get rid of their spouses by poisoning them. Even if d&d poisons are impractical in combat can't they still be practical in those situations, where you need to kill someone without combat. Spending lots of money for a poison that's likely to bring down someone you can't just attack might be worth it.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 09:33 PM
the problem is, poison is extremely cheap IRL...
just because kings are a good target for poison, doesn't mean each dose of a potentially lethal poison (they can still roll well and survive, which isn't the case with IRL poisons) should cost more than a house.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-24, 11:31 PM
Sure, but when I think of poisoning people I always think of paranoid rulers with food tasters and people trying to get rid of their spouses by poisoning them. Even if d&d poisons are impractical in combat can't they still be practical in those situations, where you need to kill someone without combat. Spending lots of money for a poison that's likely to bring down someone you can't just attack might be worth it.The problem with that is Clerics. Why waste money on food tasters when you can just have your 7th level Cleric attend all state meals?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 11:34 PM
The problem with that is Clerics. Why waste money on food tasters when you can just have your 7th level Cleric attend all state meals?

or level 0 cleric trainee cast purify food and drink (cantrip)..
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/purifyfoodanddrink.htm

awa
2009-12-25, 12:17 AM
magic makes the whole poison a ruler impractical. besides most poisons in dnd cant kill you either becuase they dont target con or becuase they cant deal at least 10 con damage

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:40 AM
magic makes the whole poison a ruler impractical. besides most poisons in dnd cant kill you either becuase they dont target con or becuase they cant deal at least 10 con damage

a few do... black lotus @ 4500gp per dose does 3d6 con damage initial and 3d6 con damage secondary... highly likely to kill a 10 con person (although it is possible to survive if you have above 6 con)... of course, a single casting of a cantrip makes it moot...

and even if you managed to murder the king... its 4500gp for the poison, its only 5000 gp to bring him back to life.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-25, 12:51 AM
I dunno if you're getting that info out of a sourcebook somewhere

Complete Adventurer.

Also, City of Splendors: Waterdeep has obscenely cheap poison. Sleep-smoke, i.e. a smoke grenade. Costs 25 gp per throw, inhaled DC 15, unconsciousness for 1 minute/1d3 minutes. DC 15 crafting too.

suryasm
2009-12-25, 02:30 PM
Poison in existing rules is more of a debuffer than anything else. They are useful but nothing great. They'll work best if you use them with ranged weapons - 1 dose of poison is good only for 1 melee attack, but its usable on 20 ranged ammo items like arrows and darts. And crafting them will make them cheap enough to be a useful option in your party's bag of tricks.

I've used poison and seen it used, and it can come in handy if the PC knows what he is doing. As long as he doesn't rely on it entirely.

Johel
2009-12-25, 03:12 PM
I'll agree with Crow here : let the player harvest his own poison.

According to Craft rules (which are broken but that's another debate...), raw materials cost only a third of the market price value of an item. This put the cost of, say, Wyvern poison, down at 1.000 gp.

Now, if the player can somehow "milk" a Wyvern, this cost is reduced by half or even nothing, as the conditioning is done by our little alchemist. By conditioning, I mean a alchemical process to maintain the poison active loooong after it had been extracted.

A few mission against creatures/organizations that are likely to have access to the raw material and you got a happy player.

Ormur
2009-12-25, 10:19 PM
or level 0 cleric trainee cast purify food and drink (cantrip)..
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/purifyfoodanddrink.htm

Level 1 probably but, yes that makes poisons pretty useless. I see now that a cleric or a magic item that does the same would be a necessity for every paranoid noble. Maybe your DM won't know but it's pretty bad if your assassination attempt can be thwarted by a 0 level spell.

Crow
2009-12-25, 11:43 PM
a few do... black lotus @ 4500gp per dose does 3d6 con damage initial and 3d6 con damage secondary... highly likely to kill a 10 con person (although it is possible to survive if you have above 6 con)... of course, a single casting of a cantrip makes it moot...

and even if you managed to murder the king... its 4500gp for the poison, its only 5000 gp to bring him back to life.

I believe multiple doses of poison can increase the lethality, but I don't remember, so I could be wrong.

As to the 500gp to bring the king back to life, generally NPC's don't choose to be raised. Even when people attempt, the spell usually fails, per RAW. This is explained due to the dying person's spirit going to the plane in it's afterlife that is the most fitting for that person. They find that they are somewhere where they feel they "belong", and simply do not have the desire to return to their mundane life.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-26, 11:12 AM
a few do... black lotus @ 4500gp per dose does 3d6 con damage initial and 3d6 con damage secondary... highly likely to kill a 10 con person (although it is possible to survive if you have above 6 con)... of course, a single casting of a cantrip makes it moot...

and even if you managed to murder the king... its 4500gp for the poison, its only 5000 gp to bring him back to life.

It's a ruler....they have soo much wealth to spend on protection their magic items would be easily able to boost their saves high enough to live through all poisoning attempts anyway. (Jewlery of resistance, etc...)

taltamir
2009-12-26, 03:51 PM
It's a ruler....they have soo much wealth to spend on protection their magic items would be easily able to boost their saves high enough to live through all poisoning attempts anyway. (Jewlery of resistance, etc...)

yes...

so ok:
1. They will have a something of resistance +5
2. They will have a cleric cast a 0 level spell to completely nullify any poison in their food before eating any meal.
3. If they somehow get killed, it costs slightly more than the poison to bring them back to life.

As for NPCs not coming back to life... they are not just random farmers here, this is the important king who has an important job to do. He can't leave the kingdom to fall apart in his absence or to risk his unprepared hairs falling to a coup or whatever.

heck, aren't there "immunity to poison" items?

Crow
2009-12-26, 07:34 PM
As for NPCs not coming back to life... they are not just random farmers here, this is the important king who has an important job to do. He can't leave the kingdom to fall apart in his absence or to risk his unprepared hairs falling to a coup or whatever.

Somehow I think finding your place in the cosmos for all eternity is more important than the cares of your comparitively extremely short mortal existance. Kings die, and always have, all the way up to even this king. Somehow, the world didn't blow up, and mankind pressed on.

Of course, if the world IS going to blow up, and the King is the only one that can stop it...

But if that's the case, the King is probably either a PC, or a DMPC. =)

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-26, 07:42 PM
You can create an item of (other) bonus to saves for merely twice the price of a resistance bonus iirc. He'd have quite easily +25 to saves. (insight, divine/profane, luck, resistance, morale)

EDIT: And surely he'd want to keep his country in order, if he were a good ruler. I'd certainly think that unless he was confident in his heir's abilities, he'd want to return.

Crow
2009-12-26, 07:50 PM
EDIT: And surely he'd want to keep his country in order, if he were a good ruler. I'd certainly think that unless he was confident in his heir's abilities, he'd want to return.

The thing is, the things he could do for his country in the twenty years he has left are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. When you're measuring time in eons, those twenty years don't really matter anymore. This is one of the things the books cite as the reason people generally don't come back. Because the material world, and their mortal life really doesn't matter to them anymore.

olelia
2009-12-26, 08:19 PM
After two pages and reading through some of the post I have a simple question. Are you using the 3.5 poison rules or the pathfinder poison rules since he is going to be playing a pathfinder class? I know they changed poison on some scale, though whether it's for the better I am unsure.

Grumman
2009-12-26, 09:16 PM
heck, aren't there "immunity to poison" items?
Yes. 27,000 gp buys you immunity to all forms of poison.

CoffeeIncluded
2009-12-26, 09:20 PM
It's a ruler....they have soo much wealth to spend on protection their magic items would be easily able to boost their saves high enough to live through all poisoning attempts anyway. (Jewlery of resistance, etc...)

Yes, but what if the point of the assassination is not to permanently off the ruler (Although that WOULD be a bonus), but to cause as much chaos as possible, leaving the kingdom vulnerable enough for a swift, more direct, covert attack?

Crow
2009-12-26, 09:34 PM
Yes, but what if the point of the assassination is not to permanently off the ruler (Although that WOULD be a bonus), but to cause as much chaos as possible, leaving the kingdom vulnerable enough for a swift, more direct, covert attack?

Like Valkyrie!

Demons_eye
2009-12-26, 10:34 PM
If poison cost a lot why not just make three doses and sell two thus paying for all three?

Brendan
2009-12-26, 10:55 PM
would Granny weatherwax be NG? she does whatever she needs to do to help those she wants to help, to put it vaguely.
Vetinari is a tough one. He is a self proclaimed tyrant, his murdering tendencies have been noted many times, and he kills mimes simply because they annoy him. That is strong Evil there. However, he wants the city to prosper, which, while not necessarily good or evil, is the driving force of his actions, giving him a reason for his evils, other than the mime bit, which is just his own personal cruelty. He is certainly evil.
However, the law chaos axis is what intrigues me. He lives in burocracy, and he is extremely calculated, but he moves around the laws and runs a very chaotic city letting anyone do what they want as long as he is fine with it.

Grumman
2009-12-26, 11:01 PM
If poison cost a lot why not just make three doses and sell two thus paying for all three?
Because if you have a place to sell thousands of GP worth of poison, it's worth asking yourself if you'd be better off just selling all three and buying scrolls or other magic items instead.

olentu
2009-12-26, 11:09 PM
Well I recall something saying that purchasing or possessing poison is always illegal so perhaps the market is small and so it might be hard to move the extra doses without cutting into adventuring time.

awa
2009-12-27, 01:23 AM
now the legality of poison would definitively depend on the society and type of poison in question for example right off the top of my head i can think of poisons from serpent kingdoms book that would definitely be legal in any scaly kind society (the poisons grant beneficial buffs to scaly kind and are poisonous to other species) I can almost guarantee many races immune to poison would not make poison illegal it would make no sense. In addition races like drow who regularly use poison would be unlikely to outlaw it.