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bengosha
2009-12-23, 01:57 PM
Does anyone know of any insanely overpowered fighter races and/or builds? I know of the trip monkey, but I'm looking for a more damage-output oriented build. Any level adjustment is fine, but please explain why you chose it. It must be up to level 12 though, sorry for being so picky. :smalltongue:

I already made a Fire Giant fighter. My Dm changed the la from +4 to +8 because it is pretty much the strongest character in the group now, along with an Ilithid lvl 5 monk, a human wizard, a flesh golem cohort and a satyr rogue.

We can use anything we find as long as we have the book or the source with the rule on it. No homebrewed creatures, but homebrewed feats are a possibility as long as they aren't completely game breaking.

We are playing Rappan Athuk if that changes anything.

Thanks,
Bengosha

PinkysBrain
2009-12-23, 02:00 PM
Are you guys ignoring racial HD or something? (Common mistake.) Firegiant with LA+8 is equivalent to a level 23 character (without character levels). The normal way monstrous races are handled is broken ... but the other way, you always end up underpowered.

I'm guessing you are playing core?

In core there is nothing really very powerful melee characters can do with their own abilities apart from tripping ... the only really good things there are for melee characters in core are magic weapons. Majorly wounding weapons and the Life-drinker great axe (you need death ward cast on you before you can use it though).

Polymorph abuse helps too of course, but you need a little help for that.

Tavar
2009-12-23, 02:03 PM
Standard damage dealer is as follows: Power attack+two handed weapon+ Shocktrooper+leap attack. Shocktrooper changes PA's penalty from Attack bonus to AC, Leap attack increases damage dealt by 100%. Charge, then watch them die.

Narazil
2009-12-23, 02:08 PM
I already made a Fire Giant fighter. My Dm changed the la from +4 to +8 because it is pretty much the strongest character in the group now, along with an Ilithid lvl 5 monk, a human wizard, a flesh golem cohort and a satyr rogue.
Wait, what?

Bayar
2009-12-23, 02:08 PM
Hulking Hurler builds that throw planets ?

Tavar
2009-12-23, 02:12 PM
Wizards can be among the best, but if you go standard evoker route they aren't all that great. The problem is that that's just one out of several ways you can take the class.

Zaydos
2009-12-23, 02:16 PM
I'd say 1 level of lion spirit totem barbarian for pounce (Complete Champion) and Tavar's standard fighter listed above. It can be fun. Through in water orc for +4 Str and +2 Con and no LA, and go to town. Never tried it with race included, but I made a human warblade who did this without pounce and could still 2 hit a CR higher dragon (needed a crit with the second attack).

Tengu_temp
2009-12-23, 02:17 PM
As 4chan says it:

>Ridiculously overpowered
>Fighter

Tavar
2009-12-23, 02:18 PM
If you're doing water orc, be dragonborn(races of the dragon) as well: otherwise you take penalties for light sensitivity. It also scores you +2 con, -2 dex, and your choice of a breathe weapon, flight, or some extra senses.

Flickerdart
2009-12-23, 02:28 PM
Thri-Kreen Tauric Monstrous Crab is where it's at, if you're going to go with monstrous races. There's only a single point of LA on that sucker, the hit die isn't the worst and you get more attacks than your mother can handle along with beefy scores.

PinkysBrain
2009-12-23, 02:28 PM
Assuming you are playing core and you are allowed to use leadership I'd go for dwarf barbarian 11/fighter 1 (fighter level thrown in because it had to be a fighter) with a wizard specialist transmuter cohort.

The cohort is there mostly to buff you (polymorph/death ward/etc).

Flickerdart
2009-12-23, 02:30 PM
You might as well go Fighter 2, then, for that other bonus feat. And if you're taking a Wizard cohort, then that's a character more powerful than you already.

Sploosh
2009-12-23, 02:33 PM
Thri-Kreen Tauric Monstrous Crab is where it's at, if you're going to go with monstrous races. There's only a single point of LA on that sucker, the hit die isn't the worst and you get more attacks than your mother can handle along with beefy scores.

Just dont let them flip you over.

Person_Man
2009-12-23, 02:34 PM
Here is my stock Fighter advice:

Fighter is actually quite a respectable choice up to ECL 12ish if you know what you're doing. The keys are alternate class features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113.html) and careful feat selection (see combos above).

At level 1, Fighters get the Tower Shield for free. This in itself is useful. Races of Stone also lets you trade it away for Exotic Shield Proficiency, which has several uses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6848292). I suggest using it for a Gnome Battle Cloak, which is essentially a shield you wear on your back, which is essentially a free Animated shield. Or you can take the Extreme Shield if you want +3 AC without a To-Hit penalty (but don't care about making shield bash attacks). If you want a mounted build (which is one of your best core-ish options) then I suggest a Riding Shield.

At levels 2 and 6, Dungonscape lets you trade away feats for the Dungeoncrasher ability, which gives you massive damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object. As others have opined, the easiest way to abuse this is through the Knockback feat. Check out Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248). If you want to be less abusive and/or don't want to be a Goliath, then I suggest you be a Raptorian or Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) for free flight (though it doesn't kick in until ECL 12). This lets you move above enemies, so that you can Bull Rush them into the floor. You can also get free Bull Rush attempts from the Shield of the Severed Hand (Complete Divine pg 102 or MIC) and/or Brutal Surge weapons (MIC). It's also worth mentioning that Dungeoncrasher damage is so high that even a single mundane Bull Rush per turn can kill most enemies.

At 2nd level or higher you can give up a Fighter bonus feat to gain the Resolute ability (Complete Champion). It allows you to immediately shift 1/2 your BAB to your Will Save. Hugely useful at mid to high levels, as Will Saves are often Save or Lose. Once you get to level 10 or higher I would definitely pick this one up, unless you can find some other form of mental protection.

A nifty web ad on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) gives you various buffs to your ability to Demoralize. The most important kicks in at 11th level, which lets you Demoralize as a Swift Action. This can be a powerful tool (http://boards-test-dev.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167), especially when combined with the Imperious Command feat (Drow of the Underdark) which makes Demoralized enemies Cower (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cowering).

Put that together, and you get respectable defense, strong offense, and two forms of battlefield control (Bull Rush and Fear). Pretty solid for any low to mid level melee build.

Blas_de_Lezo
2009-12-23, 02:39 PM
A wizard of 9th or more level, with the proper selection of spells (divination, transmutation, conjuration and enchantment mainly) will ruin any campaign.

Ryumaru
2009-12-23, 02:54 PM
Lest your historically accurate Japanese giant crab is exposed to MASSIVE DAMAGE.

FatR
2009-12-23, 03:00 PM
Does anyone know of any insanely overpowered fighter races and/or builds?
There aren't any. Unless by "fighter" you mean "someone who swords things", as opposed to a chacter of Fighter class. It is possible to make adequate fighters, but it is not possible to overpower them, as everything they do is possible to counter and often easy to counter. Even if you can do over 9000 damage on a charge, it is of no use, if there is no unobstructed charge line between you and your enemy, and so on.

PinkysBrain
2009-12-23, 03:06 PM
You might as well go Fighter 2, then, for that other bonus feat.
Not if you start play at level 12, the upgrade to greater rage beats anything a feat can give.

And if you're taking a Wizard cohort, then that's a character more powerful than you already.
A core only level 10 transmuter specialist with evocation and conjuration banned? Not all the time, sometimes you still need plain old damage.

Coidzor
2009-12-23, 03:48 PM
Thri-Kreen Tauric Monstrous Crab is where it's at, if you're going to go with monstrous races. There's only a single point of LA on that sucker, the hit die isn't the worst and you get more attacks than your mother can handle along with beefy scores.

Wait... What do you get from being Tauric That Damn Crab?

Drogorn
2009-12-23, 04:34 PM
Fighter is actually quite a respectable choice up to ECL 12ish if you know what you're doing. The keys are alternate class features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113.html) and careful feat selection (see combos above).
You should check your links.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 04:41 PM
Not if you start play at level 12, the upgrade to greater rage beats anything a feat can give.
Brb1/Ftr11 is going to be a lot stronger than Brb11/Ftr1, with access to PHB2 feats. Rage+WF/WS/GWF already beats Greater Rage (and those aren't even the best feats to take), then you have Melee Weapon Mastery which may or may not stack depending on your DM. Not to mention all of the other options that feats give you.

Barbarian is a nice one-level dip for a fighter.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 04:44 PM
Brb1/Ftr11 is going to be a lot stronger than Brb11/Ftr1, with access to PHB2 feats. Rage+WF/WS/GWF already beats Greater Rage (and those aren't even the best feats to take), then you have Melee Weapon Mastery which may or may not stack depending on your DM. Not to mention all of the other options that feats give you.

Barbarian is a nice one-level dip for a fighter.

And Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 11 is better than both. Though shalt not take odd levels in Fighter, and all.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 04:48 PM
And Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 11 is better than both. Though shalt not take odd levels in Fighter, and all.
Well it's not like he's going to be level 12 forever... soon he'd be Brb1/Ftr12. And if the game goes long enough, and he's actually interested in making a powerful fighter, then Weapon Supremacy is a nice reward for sticking with the class. Plus, going non-core, there might be a lot of feats that he wants to take. Does Brb1/Warblade1/Ftr18 work well?

taltamir
2009-12-23, 04:49 PM
Are you guys ignoring racial HD or something? (Common mistake.) Firegiant with LA+8 is equivalent to a level 23 character (without character levels). The normal way monstrous races are handled is broken ... but the other way, you always end up underpowered.

That... OP, I think your group has missed something about the rules of level adjustment.
ECL = Effective Character Level.
ECL = LA (level adjustment) + HD (hit die).
A creature with 1 racial HD replaces that HD with their class HD on their first level, creatures with more HD than 1, add their class HD to their racial HD...

So a level 0 fire giant has an effective character level of 19. (15 racial HD + 4 LA).
At level 1, your fire giant is now level 20 (15 racial HD + 4 LA + 1 class HD).

Making your fire giant LA 8 and ignoring the racial HD component of the effective level means that you are indeed vastly overpowered compared to the poor human / elf / gnome / etc characters with a significantly lower level...

Everyone is the party should be the same ECL...
So a level 1 fire giant should play with a level 20 human fighter.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 05:01 PM
Well it's not like he's going to be level 12 forever... soon he'd be Brb1/Ftr12. And if the game goes long enough, and he's actually interested in making a powerful fighter, then Weapon Supremacy is a nice reward for sticking with the class. Plus, going non-core, there might be a lot of feats that he wants to take. Does Brb1/Warblade1/Ftr18 work well?

Now, you see fighter and think the mechanical class "Fighter." I see "fighter" and think "Dude who uses primarily nonmagical means to kill things dead, thus, Barbarian/Warblade.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-23, 05:05 PM
There aren't any. Unless by "fighter" you mean "someone who swords things", as opposed to a chacter of Fighter class. It is possible to make adequate fighters, but it is not possible to overpower them, as everything they do is possible to counter and often easy to counter. Even if you can do over 9000 damage on a charge, it is of no use, if there is no unobstructed charge line between you and your enemy, and so on.

That's like saying a Batman wizard isn't overpowered if he's in an antimagic field. Even if it's conditional overpowered that can be shut down without too much difficulty, it's still overpowered.

Besides, once you can fly you don't have to worry about difficult terrain or unobstructed charge lines much.

tyckspoon
2009-12-23, 07:34 PM
Well it's not like he's going to be level 12 forever... soon he'd be Brb1/Ftr12. And if the game goes long enough, and he's actually interested in making a powerful fighter, then Weapon Supremacy is a nice reward for sticking with the class. Plus, going non-core, there might be a lot of feats that he wants to take. Does Brb1/Warblade1/Ftr18 work well?

If you want Fighter-restricted feats, you still go Warblade; they count as a Fighter-2 for qualifying for those feats. So something like Barb 1/ Fighter 1/Warblade X/Fighter 2/Warblade y; grab Weapon Focus with your first Fighter Bonus Feat and Melee Weapon Mastery with the other.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 08:06 PM
If you want Fighter-restricted feats, you still go Warblade; they count as a Fighter-2 for qualifying for those feats. So something like Barb 1/ Fighter 1/Warblade X/Fighter 2/Warblade y; grab Weapon Focus with your first Fighter Bonus Feat and Melee Weapon Mastery with the other.
Wow, that's harsh... did they have to take everything away from the Fighter like that? It wasn't much, but the fighter-only feats were something...

Eldariel
2009-12-23, 08:12 PM
Wow, that's harsh... did they have to take everything away from the Fighter like that? It wasn't much, but the fighter-only feats were something...

Well, as I understand the idea was that players can replace the Fighter with the Warblade if they so desire. They work just fine side-by-side (especially with all the Fighter ACFs later printed) but the Warblade is "expected" to be able to used in the same niché as the Fighter hence the abilities.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 08:13 PM
Wow, that's harsh... did they have to take everything away from the Fighter like that? It wasn't much, but the fighter-only feats were something...

Wait, Fighter-only feats were something? This is news to me, considering what Knowledge Devotion does by comparison to most of the Weapon Focus line.

Aldizog
2009-12-23, 08:16 PM
Wait, Fighter-only feats were something? This is news to me, considering what Knowledge Devotion does by comparison to most of the Weapon Focus line.
It's symbolic.
"Not only do we get stuff that's better than your stuff, we also get all of your stuff as well."

Tavar
2009-12-23, 08:18 PM
Well, due to their lack of feats, they can't actually take the Weapon supremacy line.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 08:18 PM
It's symbolic.
"Not only do we get stuff that's better than your stuff, we also get all of your stuff as well."

They don't get Dungeoncrasher or the Zhentarim-sub levels, if that means anything. Outside of going for something like Jack B. Quick, those are really the only things the Fighter class has going for itself.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-23, 08:22 PM
Ridiculously overpowered fighter build? Fighter 1/Wizard 11. :smalltongue:

Amphetryon
2009-12-23, 08:34 PM
Ridiculously overpowered fighter build? Fighter 1/Wizard 11. :smalltongue:

Too much Fighter. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:37 AM
Ridiculously overpowered fighter build? Fighter 1/Wizard 11. :smalltongue:

actually... "fighter <party level>" when misinterpreting the LA rules to get a +4 LA race with 15 natural HD @ only 4 levels above the party...

having an ECL of 20 when the rest of the part is level 5 makes you ridiculously overpowered. When the poor wizard is level 10, you are ECL 25.

according to the OP everyone is playing martial characters with ridiculously overpowered races (because they decimated anyone playing martial or arcane character with a non overpowered race) because the LA system is way broken... this makes no sense at all, the only possible conclusion is that the OP (which has still not commented on the LA issue), is playing with people who have no idea how LA works and misinterpret it horribly.

you are more then welcome to be a level 7 wizard while I am playing a level 1 fighter juvinile gold dragon (+6 LA means it is 6 levels below the party, while ignoring the 14 HD)...

heck, make it monk 1 :)

bengosha
2009-12-24, 01:08 PM
That... OP, I think your group has missed something about the rules of level adjustment.
ECL = Effective Character Level.
ECL = LA (level adjustment) + HD (hit die).
A creature with 1 racial HD replaces that HD with their class HD on their first level, creatures with more HD than 1, add their class HD to their racial HD...

So a level 0 fire giant has an effective character level of 19. (15 racial HD + 4 LA).
At level 1, your fire giant is now level 20 (15 racial HD + 4 LA + 1 class HD).

Making your fire giant LA 8 and ignoring the racial HD component of the effective level means that you are indeed vastly overpowered compared to the poor human / elf / gnome / etc characters with a significantly lower level...

Everyone is the party should be the same ECL...
So a level 1 fire giant should play with a level 20 human fighter.

Yeah, we did it wrong, but it's alright, because this adventure is supposed to be mindblowingly difficult. My last character got petrified in game two, when we were still on the first floor of the dungeon and there are at least 10 more to go...:smallbiggrin:

In fact he told us to make roughly 10 characters and make them as over powered as they can be. All the other characters have done the same thing with their PCs (not counting racial hit dice as part of their ECL). The human wizard is the DMPC, so he doesn't really matter. There is no RP in this campaign, its just straight up dungeon crawling. That's not to say that we never roleplay with him, it's just that we're trying something new.

Thanks for all the build recommendations, but are there any more races that are of note?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 02:10 PM
If you're doing water orc, be dragonborn(races of the dragon) as well: otherwise you take penalties for light sensitivity. It also scores you +2 con, -2 dex, and your choice of a breathe weapon, flight, or some extra senses.
There's a simpler solution than going through a whole rebirth thing: Sundark Goggles (Races of the Dragon, page 123) cost 10 gp and take care of the whole light sensitivity issue.

Otodetu
2009-12-24, 07:22 PM
That... OP, I think your group has missed something about the rules of level adjustment.
ECL = Effective Character Level.
ECL = LA (level adjustment) + HD (hit die).
A creature with 1 racial HD replaces that HD with their class HD on their first level, creatures with more HD than 1, add their class HD to their racial HD...

So a level 0 fire giant has an effective character level of 19. (15 racial HD + 4 LA).
At level 1, your fire giant is now level 20 (15 racial HD + 4 LA + 1 class HD).

Making your fire giant LA 8 and ignoring the racial HD component of the effective level means that you are indeed vastly overpowered compared to the poor human / elf / gnome / etc characters with a significantly lower level...

Everyone is the party should be the same ECL...
So a level 1 fire giant should play with a level 20 human fighter.

This.

And don't be a fighter, 3.5 is not very well balanced.

Try the warblade\crusader instead (from book of nine swords)

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 07:27 PM
This.

And don't be a fighter, 3.5 is not very well balanced.

Try the warblade\crusader instead (from book of nine swords)

I've been told on this site that fighters actually can do a great deal more sheer damage output than the ToB classes, but many players prefer the defenses, flexibility, and variety of playing a warblade. Is this true?

aje8
2009-12-24, 07:35 PM
I've been told on this site that fighters actually can do a great deal more sheer damage output than the ToB classes, but many players prefer the defenses, flexibility, and variety of playing a warblade. Is this true?
Debatably? Yes. I wouldn't say definatley or in all cases. Uberchargers are very feat intensive and thus Fighter does it better than Warblade for the most part. Thus, if the Fighter goes Ubercharger, he will usually do more damage per round then the Warblade.

Darrin
2009-12-24, 07:46 PM
Debatably? Yes. I wouldn't say definatley or in all cases. Uberchargers are very feat intensive and thus Fighter does it better than Warblade for the most part. Thus, if the Fighter goes Ubercharger, he will usually do more damage per round then the Warblade.

The Ubercharger will also get bored a heckuva lot quicker. Such a heavily optimized build has only one interesting thing it can do every round: charge! And if you ever run into something you can't charge (fliers, incorporeal foes, etc.), you're toast.

When you have ToB maneuvers, every round is a little different.

aje8
2009-12-24, 07:49 PM
The Ubercharger will also get bored a heckuva lot quicker. Such a heavily optimized build has only one interesting thing it can do every round: charge! And if you ever run into something you can't charge (fliers, incorporeal foes, etc.), you're toast.

When you have ToB maneuvers, every round is a little different.
Oh I agree. I'd always play a ToB character over an uber-charger. I was just answering the question.

Though it should be noted that those disadvantages are vastly overstated. EVERY high level melee character needs to be able to fly and see invisible things at the very least.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-24, 07:53 PM
Fire Giant? hows this?

Half-Water Elemental Tauric Mastadon Stone Giant/Fighter 1

Otodetu
2009-12-24, 07:56 PM
The Ubercharger will also get bored a heckuva lot quicker. Such a heavily optimized build has only one interesting thing it can do every round: charge! And if you ever run into something you can't charge (fliers, incorporeal foes, etc.), you're toast.

When you have ToB maneuvers, every round is a little different.

This: a game is about having fun outside of combat too, being able to do cool stuff helps your character's self-image you know.

With a fighter you know that you can be emulated by any troll type monster, had a incident that included some ettins, we where about level 7, and it ended with the monk hired(forced\bribed) and equipped about 5 ettins with metal swords and armour, and the sheer combat potential of these creatures showed us just how limited basic martial builds are. So just replacing the warrior archtypes with "Ettin Strike Force" proved to be the way.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 07:57 PM
is there a rule that says you cannot charge in the air? any fighter should have flight...

heck, any character should have the 10k gp graft that gives them flight. (best perma flight in the game, cheap, non magical, fast, and always on).

and why can't you charge incorporeal creatures?

sofawall
2009-12-24, 08:05 PM
is there a rule that says you cannot charge in the air? any fighter should have flight...

heck, any character should have the 10k gp graft that gives them flight. (best perma flight in the game, cheap, non magical, fast, and always on).

and why can't you charge incorporeal creatures?

Incorporeal creatures can be charged, but are slightly tricky to hit.

The graft makes you insane if you are good, and makes you evil if you are neutral. It isn't a free lunch there. (You were even told that, and told to read the entry for things to see if it really is as good as it seems.)

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 08:22 PM
The Ubercharger will also get bored a heckuva lot quicker. Such a heavily optimized build has only one interesting thing it can do every round: charge!
For certain barbarian fans, "get bored a heckuva lot quicker" does not mean "get bored within the lifetime of a campaign." There are a more than a few players who seem happy to do "I rage and charge" all the time... and, hey, if it makes them happy, if splatting an otyugh one week and an owlbear the next is their idea of variety, good for them. I'm not sure what the OP's preference might be on damage-vs-versatility/variety.

@otodetu: As to having fun and cool things to do, while I certainly see your point, I do miss the habit in earlier editions of trying things independent of the abilities listed on their sheets. EVERYBODY was able to do cool stuff (DM and dice permitting, of course). That habit is not entirely gone (I do love when PCs win with creative tactics that could have been implemented by a squad of commoners), but 3E did seem to place a great deal more focus on "Here's what you can do, it's on your sheet." And within that mindset, it is unfortunately valid to say that the fighter can't do cool stuff. I understand that this kind of player creativity is something 4E tries to encourage in the DMG or something, despite 4E looking to me like it's even more rigidly defined than 3E.

Bibliomancer
2009-12-24, 08:32 PM
Yeah, we did it wrong, but it's alright, because this adventure is supposed to be mindblowingly difficult. My last character got petrified in game two, when we were still on the first floor of the dungeon and there are at least 10 more to go...:smallbiggrin:

In fact he told us to make roughly 10 characters and make them as over powered as they can be. All the other characters have done the same thing with their PCs (not counting racial hit dice as part of their ECL). The human wizard is the DMPC, so he doesn't really matter. There is no RP in this campaign, its just straight up dungeon crawling. That's not to say that we never roleplay with him, it's just that we're trying something new.

Thanks for all the build recommendations, but are there any more races that are of note?

If you're not counting racial hit dice as ECL, play a Moutain Giant from MMII. They, as written, have a negative ECL (HD 27, ECL 25), meaning that you could then be a 14th level fighter. Or wizard.

Overshee
2009-12-24, 08:38 PM
.
Oh I agree. I'd always play a ToB character over an uber-charger. I was just answering the question.

Sorry, I'm new to optimization in 3.5 and bad with acronyms to boot. What's ToB? Tome of Battles? Tuba of Beheading? Terror of Bards? Tooth or Boot?

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 08:41 PM
Sorry, I'm new to optimization in 3.5 and bad with acronyms to boot. What's ToB? Tome of Battles? Tuba of Beheading? Terror of Bards? Tooth or Boot?
Tuba of Beheading. It's a bardic magic item that makes heads explode.

Or Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Both usages are acceptable.

aje8
2009-12-24, 08:41 PM
Sorry, I'm new to optimization in 3.5 and bad with acronyms to boot. What's ToB? Tome of Battles? Tuba of Beheading? Terror of Bards? Tooth or Boot?
ToB=Tome of Battle, Book of 9 Swords.

It gives Fighters cool things to do every round (Manuevers) while making them more balanced with casters to boot.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 08:41 PM
1d2 Crusader... but that requires spell casting
White Revan Tactics loopers... but that is builds
Iron Heart Surge to end the effect of the sun!... Don't know what that does for you, but it's powerful.

Bibliomancer
2009-12-24, 08:54 PM
Interesting bit of trivia.

1d2 crusader, you never stop rolling damage. The additional damage is not optional. Thus, when you first attack, the world hangs, and the gods need to reboot it. Far Realms help you if you use this build for the first time on the Outer Planes.

Skaven
2009-12-24, 08:58 PM
There's no such thing as a ridiculously overpowered fighter.

No matter how strong you are or what you are, a single moderately optimised human wizard will still laugh in your face.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 09:06 PM
Interesting bit of trivia.

1d2 crusader, you never stop rolling damage. The additional damage is not optional. Thus, when you first attack, the world hangs, and the gods need to reboot it. Far Realms help you if you use this build for the first time on the Outer Planes.

Keyword is can.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 09:34 PM
There's no such thing as a ridiculously overpowered fighter.

No matter how strong you are or what you are, a single moderately optimised human wizard will still laugh in your face.

please use your level 7 wizard to slaughter my level 1 fighter juvinile gold dragon in the face. please...
of course, you mean by the RAW and not by the houserules of the OP, where ECL is adhered to, where wizards can pun pun legally (as if any DM will let you do it), and where enemies are too stupid to defend themselves. (a dragon casts as a sorcerer... and can chose spells known from wizard/sorcerer or cleric list. as well as special dragon only spells... which happen to include spells which protect against things like shivering touch)

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 09:47 PM
please use your level 7 wizard to slaughter my level 1 fighter juvinile gold dragon in the face. please...
of course, you mean by the RAW and not by the houserules of the OP, where ECL is adhered to, where wizards can pun pun legally (as if any DM will let you do it), and where enemies are too stupid to defend themselves. (a dragon casts as a sorcerer... and can chose spells known from wizard/sorcerer or cleric list. as well as special dragon only spells... which happen to include spells which protect against things like shivering touch)

You should have picked an older dragon, cause the wizard is still going to win...Juvenile Golds only have a CL3, limiting them to 1st level spells. The lowest-level spell that can stop a Shivering Touch is Sheltered Vitality, a 3rd level spell.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 09:50 PM
You should have picked an older dragon, cause the wizard is still going to win...Juvenile Golds only have a CL3, limiting them to 1st level spells. The lowest-level spell that can stop a Shivering Touch is Sheltered Vitality, a 3rd level spell.

higher dragons don't have a listed LA, so I could not choose them for said example...

and a level 7 wizard is not a god... he is quite a few levels short of being one.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 09:54 PM
Technically, the oldest legal Gold Dragon you can play is a Young, which is ECL20 without class levels. Juvenile Golds don't have a listed LA either.

No one said a level 7 wizard is a god (i dont' think), but you challenged him to kill your Juvenile Gold Dragon Fighter 1 with the Wizard, and mentioned defending against Shivering Touch. Since said Gold Dragon cannot get said defenses, the wizard can indeed, and likely will, win. Wizards turn into gods in the early teens, they just get their Dragon Win Button at level 5 (7 to Reach Spell it and avoid AoOs)..

tyckspoon
2009-12-24, 10:18 PM
No one said a level 7 wizard is a god (i dont' think), but you challenged him to kill your Juvenile Gold Dragon Fighter 1 with the Wizard, and mentioned defending against Shivering Touch. Since said Gold Dragon cannot get said defenses, the wizard can indeed, and likely will, win. Wizards turn into gods in the early teens, they just get their Dragon Win Button at level 5 (7 to Reach Spell it and avoid AoOs)..

You can also apply 2 Enervations and then follow it up with pretty much anything you want. Or Fire Shield (defend fire/inflict Cold version) + Stone Skin and invite the dragon to try to eat you. Or 2x Ray of Exhaustion (-6 Dex penalty) and throw a Tanglefoot Bag. There's lots of stuff you can do to a dragon that doesn't have a way to fix its touch AC deficiency yet (mind, if you wanted to make it a Juvenile Gold level 1 Sorcerer, you might have a competition- Scintillating Scales is only level 2.)

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-24, 10:24 PM
you are more then welcome to be a level 7 wizard while I am playing a level 1 fighter juvinile gold dragon (+6 LA means it is 6 levels below the party, while ignoring the 14 HD)...

heck, make it monk 1 :)

Ok. 7th level gives me... 3rd level spells? Invisibility. Fly. True Strike. Arcane Thesis'd Snowcasting Invisible Maximized Shivering Touch. Eat 18 DEX damage. Oh, what's that? You're vulnerable to Cold? Sorry, make that 27 DEX damage. You're paralyzed? I guess I win.

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 10:32 PM
Ok. 7th level gives me... 3rd level spells? Invisibility. Fly. True Strike. Arcane Thesis'd Snowcasting Invisible Maximized Shivering Touch. Eat 18 DEX damage. Oh, what's that? You're vulnerable to Cold? Sorry, make that 27 DEX damage. You're paralyzed? I guess I win.
So, what, the conclusion we should draw from this is that Shivering Touch is horribly overpowered, poorly designed, and should never be allowed in any game?

tyckspoon
2009-12-24, 10:33 PM
So, what, the conclusion we should draw from this is that Shivering Touch is horribly overpowered, poorly designed, and should never be allowed in any game?

Well, yes, but it's hardly the only approach you can take. I outlined three more a couple posts up, and none of them require any particular optimization to use beyond maybe prepping the same spell twice (and when it's as good a spell as Ray of Exhaustion or Enervation, that's not that big a sacrifice.) It does get a lot harder if the dragon has a sensible touch AC, tho.

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 11:02 PM
Well, yes, but it's hardly the only approach you can take. I outlined three more a couple posts up, and none of them require any particular optimization to use beyond maybe prepping the same spell twice (and when it's as good a spell as Ray of Exhaustion or Enervation, that's not that big a sacrifice.) It does get a lot harder if the dragon has a sensible touch AC, tho.
Okay, now suppose you're the dragon. You know this is your vulnerability, and you know the type of foe most likely to exploit it.

What feats, tactics, etc. would you use to defend yourself against a wizard? Remember that by taking a PC class you gain Elite Array, for better stats than the core dragon. Though assume just Ftr1 WBL. [Edit: the assumption of Ftr1 WBL is because the OP's campaign appears to have some unusual rules regarding LA and ECL... might giving a higher WBL be more in line with what is going on there?]

Coidzor
2009-12-24, 11:04 PM
Okay, now suppose you're the dragon. You know this is your vulnerability, and you know the type of foe most likely to exploit it.

What feats, tactics, etc. would you use to defend yourself against a wizard? Remember that by taking a PC class you gain Elite Array, for better stats than the core dragon. Though assume just Ftr1 WBL.

tactics wise... get a party on your side so you're not facing the wizard alone where it can focus its attention on you....

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 11:07 PM
Okay, now suppose you're the dragon. You know this is your vulnerability, and you know the type of foe most likely to exploit it.

What feats, tactics, etc. would you use to defend yourself against a wizard? Remember that by taking a PC class you gain Elite Array, for better stats than the core dragon. Though assume just Ftr1 WBL.

At that low wealth, all you can do is put your 15 into Dex, giving you a +2 to your touch AC. Still not much of a threat to Mr. Wizard, unfortunately. Dragons don't really benefit much from Fighter levels, they're already combat machines from their HD alone. The best way to defend against a wizard would, sadly, be taking a level of Sorcerer and stocking up on Initiative-boosting or AC-boosting spells.

Doesn't it say something when we're trying to find a way for an ECL21+ character to effectively defend himself against a level 7 caster?
Yeah, it says that the LA system is totally borked. Bleh.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 11:19 PM
Technically, the oldest legal Gold Dragon you can play is a Young, which is ECL20 without class levels. Juvenile Golds don't have a listed LA either.

No one said a level 7 wizard is a god (i dont' think), but you challenged him to kill your Juvenile Gold Dragon Fighter 1 with the Wizard, and mentioned defending against Shivering Touch. Since said Gold Dragon cannot get said defenses, the wizard can indeed, and likely will, win. Wizards turn into gods in the early teens, they just get their Dragon Win Button at level 5 (7 to Reach Spell it and avoid AoOs)..

shivering touch is still a touch attack. I got 200' flight, 60' land speed, 22 touch AC, breath weapon at will that does 8d6 damage, and blindsense 60'...
Now, with haste you could close into my blindsense range and cast the spell. Sense I am sensing you though, and sense you entered a threatened square, I get an AoO for entering my reach, and a second one for you casting the spell (unless you cast defensively, which means a risky concentration check at level 7).

IF he gets the drop on me and uses true strike shivering touch, he wins.
That is a big if... I would sense him with blindsense and get out of the way. (although you can get over that by increasing your move speed to close from outside the blind sense range to casting distance in one round)

besides which, while he could make an entire build based upon shivering touch to shut down dragons. That leaves a lot to be desired for general playing...
Anyways, if he gets shivering touch, I hit him with some streamers.

Although, I could just be smart and use a ring of spell countering with shivering touch in it :)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm


Counterspells
This ring might seem to be a ring of spell storing upon first examination. However, while it allows a single spell of 1st through 6th level to be cast into it, that spell cannot be cast out of the ring again. Instead, should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered, as a counterspell action, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer’s part. Once so used, the spell cast within the ring is gone. A new spell (or the same one as before) may be placed in it again.

Moderate evocation; CL 11th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 4,000 gp.

So... a 4000 gp ring closes the ONLY possible way for you to win... (well, ok, not the only way... he can buy a candle of invocation and chain gate solars, or he could cast streamers on me... since streamers do CL^2 *d6 damage, he would be doing 49d6 damage at this level, untyped, no save, no SR, and no to hit.

PS. I am well aware that fighter is a sub par choice for a dragon class...

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 11:37 PM
Okay, let me just add that as a general concept, every dragon everywhere should have Font of Life as a feat. Enervation is, indeed, an extremely powerful weapon straight-up, and with the synergies with metamagic it becomes too good for 4th level. This is not a feat to defeat one other build; this is a feat to defeat an option so effective that enemies will want to use it all the time. Thankfully, one feat turns Enervation into Fort: negates, and dragons like Fort saves.

Beyond that -- is there a feat to extend blindsense range? Probably should be. Is there a feat (other than Sacred Vitality) to avoid or delay ability damage? Is there a feat to avoid or delay fatigue/exhaustion, which often appears as a no-save-you're screwed effect?

Awaken Spell Resistance is sometimes nice, but the HD/CR differential isn't that great for a young gold. Gaining SR 14 at CR 9 isn't that good.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 11:46 PM
shivering touch is still a touch attack. I got 200' flight, 60' land speed, 22 touch AC, breath weapon at will that does 8d6 damage, and blindsense 60'...
Now, with haste you could close into my blindsense range and cast the spell. Sense I am sensing you though, and sense you entered a threatened square, I get an AoO for entering my reach, and a second one for you casting the spell (unless you cast defensively, which means a risky concentration check at level 7).

IF he gets the drop on me and uses true strike shivering touch, he wins.
That is a big if... I would sense him with blindsense and get out of the way. (although you can get over that by increasing your move speed to close from outside the blind sense range to casting distance in one round)

besides which, while he could make an entire build based upon shivering touch to shut down dragons. That leaves a lot to be desired for general playing...
Anyways, if he gets shivering touch, I hit him with some streamers.

Although, I could just be smart and use a ring of spell countering with shivering touch in it :)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm

So... a 4000 gp ring closes the ONLY possible way for you to win... (well, ok, not the only way... he can buy a candle of invocation and chain gate solars, or he could cast streamers on me... since streamers do CL^2 *d6 damage, he would be doing 49d6 damage at this level, untyped, no save, no SR, and no to hit.

PS. I am well aware that fighter is a sub par choice for a dragon class...




1:Read the rules for AoO again. You don't get one when someone enters a square you threaten, you get one when they leave it. So no AoO for him moving to within 30ft. of you. For that matter, Dragons only have Blindsense, not Blindsight, so the Invisible wizard retains his Total Concealment and prevents you from making any AoO's whatsoever.

2: Haste or Fly would, indeed, let the Wizard close to casting distance in 1 move action without letting you act in the meantime. Then he fires off the Ranged Touch against your touch AC of 10 (where are you suddenly getting a 22?) with his bonus of +5 to +7 (Dex 14 to 18, depending on what he bought for gear).

4. Are you a 1st level Fighter, or a CR12 Encounter? Cause that Ring is definitely out of the WBL for the 1st option. If you're not challenging a level 7 Wizard with a Juvenile Gold Dragon Fighter 1, then the parameters change completely.

5. As for this being a 'dragon-hunting build' - it's used 3 spells - Invisibility, Haste/Fly, and Shivering Touch. A miniscule portion of a wizard's resources, no WBL at all, and all spells with excellent utility against any non-dragon fight.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 11:55 PM
1:Read the rules for AoO again. You don't get one when someone enters a square you threaten, you get one when they leave it. So no AoO for him moving to within 30ft. of you. For that matter, Dragons only have Blindsense, not Blindsight, so the Invisible wizard retains his Total Concealment and prevents you from making any AoO's whatsoever.
Opps


2: Haste or Fly would, indeed, let the Wizard close to casting distance in 1 move action without letting you act in the meantime. Then he fires off the Ranged Touch against your touch AC of 10 (where are you suddenly getting a 22?) with his bonus of +5 to +7 (Dex 14 to 18, depending on what he bought for gear).
I made a mistake, its 22 flat footed AC, not touch AC... the touch AC is not an issue then.


3. Streamers?
A real spell printed by WOTC, it deals caster level squared times d6 untyped damage that ignores SR, has no save, and automatically hits.


4. Are you a 1st level Fighter, or a CR12 Encounter? Cause that Ring is definitely out of the WBL for the 1st option. If you're not challenging a level 7 Wizard with a Juvenile Gold Dragon Fighter 1, then the parameters change completely.
Neither, I am a 7th level PC... because we are using the OPs group method of ECL = Class Levels + LA, and ignoring the HD of said creature.

I also made a mistake, it is young not juvenile gold dragon that is +6 LA, the highest you can legally play...


5. As for this being a 'dragon-hunting build' - it's used 3 spells - Invisibility, Haste/Fly, and Shivering Touch. A miniscule portion of a wizard's resources, no WBL at all, and all spells with excellent utility against any non-dragon fight.

It uses multiple feats, including arcane thesis on shivering touch to ensure it deals enough dex damage to down me. It must deal 10 dex damage.

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 11:56 PM
1:Read the rules for AoO again. You don't get one when someone enters a square you threaten, you get one when they leave it. So no AoO for him moving to within 30ft. of you. For that matter, Dragons only have Blindsense, not Blindsight, so the Invisible wizard retains his Total Concealment and prevents you from making any AoO's whatsoever.

So it might be better for the dragon to take Enlarge Breath and ready an action to breathe on any target that enters the blindsight range? That would have a 60' range.

BTW, I think the assumption of level-1 WBL is too low considering what seem to be the rules of the OP's campaign... level-7 might be more reasonable.

I'm not normally a proponent of "dragons are uber l33t and can't be beaten"... but the exploits of wizard optimization-fu is starting to look to me like "haha look how broken this stupid game is and how inept the designers were." As an actual fan of 3.5, I kind of am hoping to show this isn't the case, or else I'll have to give up on the system entirely.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:02 AM
btw... abusing arcane thesis for negative spell levels is really a bad way to overcome a challenge...
Although, I retract it being a dragon slaying method... since you got it up to 27 dex damage per casting with no save... a dragon only has 10dex, always. So having it go up to 27 means it can be used to down anything with dex. So its not a dragon slayer build, it is a "abuse shivering touch build"...

If we are abusing horribly broken spells I could be a lightening warrior with streamers than.

that being said. Even without arcane thesis abuse, shivering touch still deals 3d6 dex damage, and any wizard of this level can cast it without actually sinking feats and specializing towards downing dragons.

and it gives a fair chance of actually downing the dragon. since average roll would be 10.5

but that is what ring of counterspelling is for. However, a ring of counterspell for shivering touch, and a second for streamers (Which is an actually more frightening spell, it can down my dragon more easily)... still don't help with abuses like chain gating solars...

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:05 AM
A real spell printed by WOTC, it deals caster level squared times d6 untyped damage that ignores SR, has no save, and automatically hits..

wut. You're wrong in... all but two ways. One of them is the spell's name. What are you even talking about? I only know of one printing of Streamers, and that is in absolutely no way it.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:09 AM
or rather, that is what I have been told, I have yet to actually find which book the damn thing is printed in.

Can you tell me which book it is in so I could properly reference it?

The Glyphstone
2009-12-25, 12:09 AM
So it might be better for the dragon to take Enlarge Breath and ready an action to breathe on any target that enters the blindsight range? That would have a 60' range.

BTW, I think the assumption of level-1 WBL is too low considering what seem to be the rules of the OP's campaign... level-7 might be more reasonable.

I'm not normally a proponent of "dragons are uber l33t and can't be beaten"... but the exploits of wizard optimization-fu is starting to look to me like "haha look how broken this stupid game is and how inept the designers were." As an actual fan of 3.5, I kind of am hoping to show this isn't the case, or else I'll have to give up on the system entirely.

That'd work. Of course, it'd be awkward for the dragon to spend his entire waking life with a readied action in case an invisible wizard sneaks up on him.

As for the second point, I'm with you myself, but Taltamir still seems to think that it'd be a challenge for a wizard to take out a dragon of any reasonable CR, instead of a minor inconvenience. Wizards are overpowered, Shivering Touch is overpowered, Dragons are over-CRed, and these three factors combined make it a really ugly matchup for the dragon.

The Ring would be a problem, but only once. Then the Wizard casts Celerity and hits him again for the kill.



EDIT: Lightning Warrior? As in, the most hilariously laughed-at homebrew on the entire internet? That's your rebuttal to Shivering Cheese?

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:12 AM
or rather, that is what I have been told, I have yet to actually find which book the damn thing is printed in.

Can you tell me which book it is in so I could properly reference it?

Shining South.

For the record, you make several (max 4) streamers. Each readies a touch attack to interrupt the next action your target takes. Each successful touch attacks does 5d10 damage; so, without metamagic, damage caps at 20d10 at CL18. SR:Yes, Save:No, Touch attacks at caster's BAB.

Edit: I'm afraid that your habit of citing mechanics that you don't understand is becoming bothersome. I mean, really? Lightning Warrior? The class' creator didn't even take it seriously, after a time.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:13 AM
EDIT: Lightning Warrior? As in, the most hilariously laughed-at homebrew on the entire internet? That's your rebuttal to Shivering Cheese?

no, my rebuttal was:
1. By the raw? a 4000gp ring.

2. By the RAP? It has probably been banned.


but Taltamir still seems to think that it'd be a challenge for a wizard to take out a dragon of any reasonable CR, instead of a minor inconvenience

No I do not... I think that if you pit a LOW level wizard against a ridiculous CR dragon, the dragon will win...

If the CRs are reasonable then wizards are better, hands down.

The only way a low level wizard can deal with crazy tough monsters is to break the world.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:16 AM
no, my rebuttal was:
1. By the raw? a 4000gp ring.
1a. Why not chain gate solars to kill me instead of shivering touch?

2. By the RAP? It has probably been banned.

Because chain gating solars would be a waste of wealth/a spell slot, when the wizard could handle you with nothing but a third level slot. Also, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Arcane Spellsurge, Celerity, and so on will handle your one-use ring quite well.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-25, 12:20 AM
^Precisely.


If we are abusing horribly broken spells I could be a lightening warrior with streamers than.
?


1. The ring only protects you once, and the Wizard can prepare 3 4th level spells with Int 18 and Specializing (or being an Elven Generalist, my preference for builds). Reach Shivering Touch + Celerity + Reach Shivering Touch = dead dragon. You'd have to buy two rings and pay a Wizard to cast the spell into both of them.
1a. Because there are differing levels of cheese, and chain gating is several grades above a 4th level spell.

2. RAP? Rules as Posted I'm assuming...remind me what those are again?

Aldizog
2009-12-25, 12:22 AM
Dragons are over-CRed
Really? It looks like in Core (i.e. MM1), Dragons are generally among the strongest creatures at a given CR. Under-CRed, if anything. Which only makes the broken-ness of wizard spells even more galling.

Then again, later MMs did push up other creatures' CRs, possibly to the point where a MM1 dragon was over-CRd compared to a MMIV outsider.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:22 AM
Because chain gating solars would be a waste of wealth/a spell slot, when the wizard could handle you with nothing but a third level slot. Also, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Arcane Spellsurge, Celerity, and so on will handle your one-use ring quite well.

Twin Spell = +4 spell levels... can only be used on cantrips by a 7th level wizard.
Quicken spell = +4 spell levels... can only be used on cantrips by a 7th level wizard.
Arcane Spellsurge = give me a moment to add it in
Celerity = give me a moment to add it in
etc = what are those etcs available to a level 7 wizard? eventually the wizard can handle a dragon with ease... at level 7 they are not yet gods, at even lower levels they are even more helpless against said dragon.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:26 AM
Twin Spell = +4 spell levels... can only be used on cantrips by a 7th level wizard.
Quicken spell = +4 spell levels... can only be used on cantrips by a 7th level wizard.
Arcane Spellsurge = give me a moment to add it in
Celerity = give me a moment to add it in
etc = what are those etcs available to a level 7 wizard? eventually the wizard can handle a dragon with ease... at level 7 they are not yet gods, at even lower levels they are even more helpless against said dragon.

Oh, for a seventh level wizard? Celerity, metamagic rods, metamagic reducers, etc. I think the point is that your dragon is actually having to work at defending from a seventh level character. Who is, you know, seventh level.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:26 AM
1. The ring only protects you once, and the Wizard can prepare 3 4th level spells with Int 18 and Specializing (or being an Elven Generalist, my preference for builds). Reach Shivering Touch + Celerity + Reach Shivering Touch = dead dragon. You'd have to buy two rings and pay a Wizard to cast the spell into both of them.
1a. Because there are differing levels of cheese, and chain gating is several grades above a 4th level spell.

2. RAP? Rules as Posted I'm assuming...remind me what those are again?

1. I only need to survive the initial attack, the wizard will not survive my counter attack... And that assumes the wizard is surprising me with an attack, if I am the aggressor he doesn't have everything set up perfectly to go his way.
What book is damned celerity from? I can't find it in the crystal keep spell lists...

1a. not really, it isn't.

2. RAP - rules as played... most of those tricks are banned universally. you can't chain gate solars, you can't pun pun, you can't shivering touch, celerity doesn't exist, etc... If you are playing by the raw there is absolutely no reason for your level 1 wizard to not win DnD... if we are playing with some sensible corrections, then all the sensible ones should be applied.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-25, 12:28 AM
Really? It looks like in Core (i.e. MM1), Dragons are generally among the strongest creatures at a given CR. Under-CRed, if anything. Which only makes the broken-ness of wizard spells even more galling.

Then again, later MMs did push up other creatures' CRs, possibly to the point where a MM1 dragon was over-CRd compared to a MMIV outsider.

That's probably true, though they're still very, very vulnerable to stuff like Enervation. Out of core, they drop considerably, since the number of ways to kill them increases dramatically in comparison to the number of ways they have to defend themselves.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:30 AM
The most obscure of obscure books, naturally.
Player's Handbook II.

Also, regarding your "2:"

No. Most games don't have extensive bannings, in my experience. Why do you think that celerity is universally banned if you don't even know what it does?

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:31 AM
The most obscure of obscure books, naturally.
Player's Handbook II.

Also, regarding your "2:"

No. Most games don't have extensive bannings, in my experience. Why do you think that celerity is universally banned if you don't even know what it does?

I know what the damned spell does... I don't remember which spell level it is / school / etc because it is universally banned. I have never actually used it because it is universally banned.

EDIT: Ok... celerity is a level 4 spell... since the opponent is a level 7 wizard, he can actually cast it...
however, you cannot chain those, since it dazes you until the begining of the next turn, and you cannot cast when dazed, not even immediate actions

so he needs to protect against 2 castings of shivering touch. two rings... this is getting expensive...

Eldariel
2009-12-25, 12:32 AM
That's probably true, though they're still very, very vulnerable to stuff like Enervation. Out of core, they drop considerably, since the number of ways to kill them increases dramatically in comparison to the number of ways they have to defend themselves.

I don't know, they have casting and get a nice variety of very solid defenses (Wings of Cover, Scintillating Scales, Greater Mirror Image, etc.). They also gain the ability to actually buff their SR so high (via. Awaken Spell Resistance-feat) that it takes effort to penetrate, and even with Assay Resistance isn't a guarantee.

Dragons are the foes I have most respect for aside from NPC casters and Outsiders. They're very impressive physically and have very solid sets of defenses and are very powerfully supported due to their combination of skills, attributes and power. Of course, it's the casting that truly makes them a threat even to prepared high-level casters. Dragons with class levels...well, an Old Dragon Cleric 20 is pretty scary. Just sayin'.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:34 AM
I know what the damned spell does... I don't remember which spell level it is / school / etc because it is universally banned. I have never actually used it because it is universally banned.

I've seen it banned... once, and only in a game with specific rules set meant to penalize full casters.


if we are playing with some sensible corrections, then all the sensible ones should be applied.

There's a less-than-subtle difference between banning infinite loops and haphazardly banning Shivering Touch or Celerity.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:38 AM
Ok... celerity is a level 4 spell... since the opponent is a level 7 wizard, he can actually cast it...
however, you cannot chain those, since it dazes you until the begining of the next turn, and you cannot take actions when dazed, not even immediate actions

so he needs to protect against 2 castings of shivering touch. two rings... this is getting expensive... still, 2 rings of counterspelling with shivering touch in them...
ah, if only he had 1 more level of sorc to cast his own protections...

it is possible for a wizard to get the drop on one by level 5 if he is unprotected, easier by level 7 if unprotected...
So how does the wizard get a third casting of shivering touch off though?

tyckspoon
2009-12-25, 12:42 AM
Dragons are the foes I have most respect for aside from NPC casters and Outsiders. They're very impressive physically and have very solid sets of defenses and are very powerfully supported due to their combination of skills, attributes and power. Of course, it's the casting that truly makes them a threat even to prepared high-level casters. Dragons with class levels...well, an Old Dragon Cleric 20 is pretty scary. Just sayin'.

It's also pretty impressively Epic, possessing 49 HD and a CR in the 30-40 range depending on just how you decide to rate those Cleric levels. I'm pretty sure a level 30+ party could take it on just as easily as a non-Epic party can take on a dragon without class levels, except the Cleric Dragon got Epic Spellcasting as soon as it hit Cleric 17 and promptly left the realm of things that make any sense in the rules.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:44 AM
Ok... celerity is a level 4 spell... since the opponent is a level 7 wizard, he can actually cast it...
however, you cannot chain those, since it dazes you until the begining of the next turn, and you cannot take actions when dazed, not even immediate actions

so he needs to protect against 2 castings of shivering touch. two rings... this is getting expensive... still, 2 rings of counterspelling with shivering touch in them...
ah, if only he had 1 more level of sorc to cast his own protections...

I could squeeze out a quickened shivering touch with several wizard builds by that level. If this is simply an arms race of Shivering Touch vs Rings of Counterspells, the rings can't keep up.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:50 AM
I could squeeze out a quickened shivering touch with several wizard builds by that level. If this is simply an arms race of Shivering Touch vs Rings of Counterspells, the rings can't keep up.

ok, how? shivering touch is level 3 spell, you have level 4 slots. Quicken is +4...
unless you are abusing arcane thesis...

human (+1 feat)
Level 1: quicken magic, easy quicken
level 3: metamagic school focus
level 5: arcane thesis shivering touch
level 6: extra feat...

I'll be damned... yes you could do that... I guess by the RAW with celerity and shivering touch and metamagic reducers abuse allowed a wizard can do it by level 7... not by level 6, he doesn't have celerity or quickened shivering touch yet... so its only 1 shivering touch attack (granted, this requires that the dragon be a juvanile level 1 fighter instead of level 1 sorcerer, so he has no access to spells that nullify shivering, and he has 2 rings of counterspell with shivering touch)...

but what about actually playing as a character against monsters and enemies rather then assassinating a single unprepared opponent? The dragon can make an excellent assassin against an expectant wizard 7 too you know. We were assuming here that the wizard gets the drop on the dragon.

Eldariel
2009-12-25, 12:52 AM
It's also pretty impressively Epic, possessing 49 HD and a CR in the 30-40 range depending on just how you decide to rate those Cleric levels. I'm pretty sure a level 30+ party could take it on just as easily as a non-Epic party can take on a dragon without class levels, except the Cleric Dragon got Epic Spellcasting as soon as it hit Cleric 17 and promptly left the realm of things that make any sense in the rules.

Eh, taking Old Black or White or another slightly weaker Dragon gets you CR Under Great Wyrm Red (it's in the ~25-26 range). Non-associated class levels FTW.

Andras
2009-12-25, 12:53 AM
It bears re-mentioning that there's this much thought being put into not getting effectively one-shotted by a single character of an ECL far, far below the CR considered.

Granted, it says more about how incredible Shivering Touch is, but still.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 12:55 AM
but what about actually playing as a character against monsters and enemies rather then assassinating a single unprepared opponent? The dragon can make an excellent assassin against an expectant wizard 7 too you know. We were assuming here that the wizard gets the drop on the dragon.
Yeah, but your dragon isn't CR appropriate for the wizard, the wizard is better at initiative, the wizard is better at divination, and the wizard is... well, a wizard.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:55 AM
There's a less-than-subtle difference between banning infinite loops and haphazardly banning Shivering Touch or Celerity.

BTW, I don't think I properly addressed this yet...

it allows a wizard to effortless get a guaranteed kill against a true dragon with more than twice its HD... or almost any other creature in existence with more than twice its HD... its not exactly "haphazardly" to ban it.
Those are some of the most broken spells / abilities ever printed by WOTC.

Flickerdart
2009-12-25, 12:59 AM
BTW, I don't think I properly address this...

it allows a wizard to effortless get a guaranteed kill against a true dragon with more than twice its HD... or almost any other creature in existence with more than twice its HD... its not exactly "haphazardly" to ban it.
Those are some of the most broken spells / abilities ever printed by WOTC.
Creatures with high touch AC, those immune to ability damage and many others, as well as high-DEX critters laugh at Shivering Touch and dance on the impudent Wizard's grave. Dragons, however, are not among those, as low DEX is their one weakness that any Wizard worth their salt will exploit, and can't exactly be punished for it.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 01:01 AM
BTW, I don't think I properly address this...

it allows a wizard to effortless get a guaranteed kill against a true dragon with more than twice its HD... or almost any other creature in existence with more than twice its HD... its not exactly "haphazardly" to ban it.
Those are some of the most broken spells / abilities ever printed by WOTC.

It's neither effortless or guaranteed, and is more of a note on both how badly CR is calculated and how overpowering options are. You, well, er. I, and many other posters here, could make a dragon who could handle shivering touch fairly easily.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:05 AM
Creatures with high touch AC, those immune to ability damage and many others, as well as high-DEX critters laugh at Shivering Touch and dance on the impudent Wizard's grave. Dragons, however, are not among those, as low DEX is their one weakness that any Wizard worth their salt will exploit, and can't exactly be punished for it.

this is hardly "penalizing" wizards...
and lets say they are facing a balor, it has touch 16 and 25 dex...

7th level wizard:
round 1: out of detection range of balor, invisible, buffed... casts true strike
round 2: closes in on balor, hits him with shivering touch, no save, thanks to true strike, no miss. then he casts a quickened true strike.
then he casts celerity, and hits him with another shivering touch...
And those shiverings? they were also maximized thanks to rod of maximize...
thats 36 dex damage, the balor is down.

heck, enemy caster that doesn't know you are coming.


It's neither effortless or guaranteed, and is more of a note on both how badly CR is calculated and how overpowering options are. You, well, er. I, and many other posters here, could make a dragon who could handle shivering touch fairly easily.

No, its a note on how bad shivering touch is... when you have celerity and shivering touch banned life as a wizard is scarier... that big bad you are facing? it has high enough saves that none of your spells can really affect it unless you get really lucky.

Gralamin
2009-12-25, 01:07 AM
Creatures with high touch AC, those immune to ability damage and many others, as well as high-DEX critters laugh at Shivering Touch and dance on the impudent Wizard's grave. Dragons, however, are not among those, as low DEX is their one weakness that any Wizard worth their salt will exploit, and can't exactly be punished for it.

Scintillating Scales.
Fixed.

Flickerdart
2009-12-25, 01:07 AM
this is hardly "penalizing" wizards...
and lets say they are facing a balor, it has touch 16 and 25 dex...

7th level wizard:
round 1: out of detection range of balor, invisible, buffed... casts true strike
round 2: closes in on balor, hits him with shivering touch, no save, thanks to true strike, no miss. then he casts a quickened true strike.
then he casts celerity, and hits him with another shivering touch...
And those shiverings? they were also maximized thanks to rod of maximize...
thats 36 dex damage, the balor is down.



No, its a note on how bad shivering touch is... when you have celerity and shivering touch banned life as a wizard is scarier... that big bad you are facing? it has high enough saves that none of your spells can really affect it unless you get really lucky.
The Balor has True Seeing and telepathy, which he could easily have turned into Mindsight. He readies an action to bend the Wizard into a pretzel, and then does. Even if he decided not to, the DC to spot an invisible creature is only 20 (and 40 to pinpoint), which he does easily with a +38 Spot check, and then it's pretzel time.

Scintillating Scales.
Fixed.
Well, sure, but that also doesn't require banning anything.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:12 AM
telepathy is 100 feet range. protection from evil, level 1 spell... shuts it down...
true sight, is 120 feet... aside from it being limited to view angle... A simple phantom steed allows you to close this distance in one move action. so you stay out of range until you charge in to attack

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 01:13 AM
You fail against his SR. Also, no. Neither Celerity nor Shivering touch are integral to a wizard build, at all. Hell, most of mine can't even learn Shivering Touch. It is necromancy, after all.

Flickerdart
2009-12-25, 01:14 AM
Protection from Evil does nothing to stop Mindsight. It's only a DC40 Spot check to pinpoint an invisible creature, which the Balor succeeds on a 2, so even if you had Darkstalker, somehow, you still lose.

Inhuman Bot
2009-12-25, 01:15 AM
Interesting bit of trivia.

1d2 crusader, you never stop rolling damage. The additional damage is not optional. Thus, when you first attack, the world hangs, and the gods need to reboot it. Far Realms help you if you use this build for the first time on the Outer Planes.

Interesting bit of trivia.

That is also completely wrong.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 01:16 AM
Interesting bit of trivia.

That is also completely wrong.

Isn't that always the way of it?

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:17 AM
Protection from Evil does nothing to stop Mindsight. It's only a DC40 Spot check to pinpoint an invisible creature, which the Balor succeeds on a 2, so even if you had Darkstalker, somehow, you still lose.

what mindsight? I am seeing the following abilities on a balor:

Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing

And the true seeing is limited to 120 feet, and the telepathy to 100 feet. you stay 140 feet away (the move on your phantom steed) until you are ready to attack and down the sucker...

that being said, if the balor has a ring of counterspells with shivering touch, your perfect plan leaves a pissed off and very much not downed balor... and you are stunned for a round.

but since you established wizards use scrying.. he should know ahead of time if the balor has that kind of defense.
And this is an extreme example, there are oodles of creatures which shivering touch can be abused on... and celerity.

Coidzor
2009-12-25, 01:17 AM
Interesting bit of trivia.

That is also completely wrong.

Be a nice little plot in a planescape though, having one cabal or another trying to end the great wheel by freezing it.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:22 AM
Be a nice little plot in a planescape though, having one cabal or another trying to end the great wheel by freezing it.

why would it? you keep on rolling damage, fine, you deal infinity damage. the creature is dead, and the universe goes on.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 01:22 AM
Spell Resistance 28. A Balor wouldn't have that item, because it isn't a good idea. Balors have feats; mindsight is a feat. Shivering Touch is a good spell, but by no means is it a great spell, in my opinion.

tyckspoon
2009-12-25, 01:27 AM
No, its a note on how bad shivering touch is... when you have celerity and shivering touch banned life as a wizard is scarier... that big bad you are facing? it has high enough saves that none of your spells can really affect it unless you get really lucky.

Except for the no-save options you have, which need either high SR or high Touch AC to block. Or the ones that just hinder you anyway regardless of anything short of an absolute No effect (usually Freedom of Movement, since the most easily available "don't bother rolling, you're stuck anyway" effects are by conjuring things to restrict movement.) Hell, you want a dragon-killing tactic that doesn't even use touch spells as a kill condition, let alone Shivering Touch?

Stone Skin, Fire Shield, False Life. You absorb the first 70 points of damage the dragon does to you (roughly one Full Attack sequence worth, given average rolling.) You do at least 8 points in return of Cold or Fire damage per hit you receive, with an average of 11-12. Receive a Full Attack of six strikes from a Large dragon, eat just enough damage to remove your False Life buffer, do 48 to 78 damage in return. On the upper end that's half of a Young Gold's HP. Cast Vampiric Touch, suck ~10 more HP out of the dragon for your own use, let it attack you again, and laugh as it fries or freezes itself to death (needs lots of HP, obviously- you'll probably be pretty near to dead yourself at the end of that second turn. If the dragon happens to be Vulnerable to the element you provide it will go much smoother- a standard Gold would ding itself for 12-19 points on a Cold shield, for a self-inflicted total of 72-114 points on a full attack sequence.)

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:30 AM
Spell Resistance 28. A Balor wouldn't have that item, because it isn't a good idea. Balors have feats; mindsight is a feat. Shivering Touch is a good spell, but by no means is it a great spell, in my opinion.

1. Mindsight is not listed for its feats in the SRD...
2. Where is mindsight from, I need to see the exact details.
3. greater spell penetration + assay resistance + your CL is 7. thats already 21 + d20 vs a SR 28... you are not guaranteed to win it though at this point... and you are also out of feats... by level 9 its 23 + d20, if you take the metamagic that lets you increase spell slot and gives you +2 vs spell resistance per level increased, (and you arcane thesised it already with an earlier feat), so make it take 2 slots -1 for thesis, total 1 slot higher for +4...
thats a total of 27+d20 vs SR... you automatically bypass SR on a roll of 1...

Still, balors are the most powerful creature I could think of off the top of my head. so having to wait to level 9 for celerity and shivering to decimate them is ok... still unbelievable spells.


stuff

Or he can hit you with a dispel magic, fly 200 feet away, and then come back next round to finish you off.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 01:36 AM
Assay eats into the number of Touches you can get off. Mindsight is hidden in Lords of Madness; effectively, he can pinpoint you if you're intelligent and within range of his telepathy.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:40 AM
Assay eats into the number of Touches you can get off. Mindsight is hidden in Lords of Madness; effectively, he can pinpoint you if you're intelligent and within range of his telepathy.

I am not sure about assay being a problem with the amount of spells prepared, but fine, I get assay from a scroll than.

As for mindsight, his telepathy is only 100 feet, i already adressed that and said I will be 140 feet away from him... unless he has celerity, it does him no good to pinpoint me during my turn...

OMFG! Perfect dragon counter!

level 7 wizard with above min max is fully buffed and ready and charges his dragon on his phantom steed... dragon detects him approaching and casts lesser celerity, which he has as a sorcerer... he uses his move action to fly 200 feet away. then he is stunned for a round. while the wizard can cover a lot of ground with a phantom steed at this level, he cannot go too far with flying... the dragon, once recovered, just remains 300 feet away and flying until the short term buffs run out, then he closes in to finish the wizard off.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 01:41 AM
You can't cast spells when you're flat-footed.

I mean, come on.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:43 AM
You can't cast spells when you're flat-footed.

I mean, come on.


Immediate Action
An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.
I see no reason why not.

Gralamin
2009-12-25, 01:45 AM
I see no reason why not.

The only immediate Action you can cast while flat-footed, by RAW, is Nerve-skitter.

Edit:

Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Coidzor
2009-12-25, 01:53 AM
why would it? you keep on rolling damage, fine, you deal infinity damage. the creature is dead, and the universe goes on.

The rolling forever part, we meant. It is an amusingly silly plan for ending the universe. The main problem being synchronicity, we think.

This, of course, with the assumption that one could freeze a plane by doing it. Or even a battlescape.

tyckspoon
2009-12-25, 01:57 AM
Or he can hit you with a dispel magic, fly 200 feet away, and then come back next round to finish you off.

Sure, once you have acquired a dragon with 6th level Sorcerer casting you can try that. That'll require either an Adult or 5 Sorcerer levels on your Young. You won't mind if the Wizard gets an extra 5 levels too, will you? You know, to maintain XP parity?

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:00 AM
scroll of dispel, it costs 375gp and it is on his list.

@Gralamin: thanks for the correction.


The rolling forever part, we meant. It is an amusingly silly plan for ending the universe. The main problem being synchronicity, we think.

hence the infinity damage part... also, maybe it makes you and your target freeze in time as you infinitely roll damage while the universe moves along around you.
but i understood that the notion was to create an infinite loop and crash the universe (as if the universe is a computer program), that was an amusing idea.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 02:04 AM
1. Mindsight is not listed for its feats in the SRD...
2. Where is mindsight from, I need to see the exact details.

Mindsight is effectively blindsense to a range = telepathy range. Lords of Madness, IIRC.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:05 AM
Mindsight is effectively blindsense to a range = telepathy range. Lords of Madness, IIRC.

ok, yea... but his telepathy is 100 feet, I said I am 140 feet away until my round because he has true seeing 120' and telepathy 100' (and darkvision 60' while we are listing things)

so he will see me with true sight and mindsight when i enter his range... but there is nothing he can do to stop me... unless he can cast celerity.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 02:07 AM
ok, yea... but his telepathy is 100 feet, I said I am 140 feet away until my round because he has true seeing 120'

so he will see me with true sight and mindsight when i enter his range... but there is nothing he can do to stop me... unless he can cast celerity.

Or has a readied action.

Also, while it's like blindsense, it's not blindsense, so it can pick up Darkstalkers.

Gralamin
2009-12-25, 02:07 AM
Or has a readied action.

Also, while it's like blindsense, it's not blindsense, so it can pick up Darkstalkers.

Or happens to move towards you.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:15 AM
i wait until it performs an action, since it cannot be readying an action while performing an action. While waiting, I ready my own action to move away should it move towards me

worse comes to worse... I use celerity and teleport away.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 02:29 AM
i wait until it performs an action, since it cannot be readying an action while performing an action. While waiting, I ready my own action to move away should it move towards me

worse comes to worse... I use celerity and teleport away.

Or it's really another level 20 wizard in disguise with XXXYYY spell...
Or it has contingency as well.

We can Schroedinger all day. When tactics update based on information that you had available, but did not factor (such as a readied action)...

Well, that's leaning into defining your actions based on unknown variables. If you're doing that, then there's nothing stopping it from dropping a dijunction right where you happen to be, even though it had no way of knowing where you were.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:30 AM
Or it's really another level 20 wizard in disguise with XXXYYY spell...
Or it has contingency as well.

We can Schroedinger all day. When tactics update based on information that you had available, but did not factor (such as a readied action)...

Well, that's leaning into defining your actions based on unknown variables. If you're doing that, then there's nothing stopping it from dropping a dijunction right where you happen to be, even though it had no way of knowing where you were.

heh... so the toughest monster i could think about.. a balor, is only really scary if it is actually a wizard in disguise? lol.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 02:31 AM
heh... so the toughest monster i could think about.. a balor, is only really scary if it is actually a wizard in disguise? lol.

I never said that. I just said stop Shroedingering your wizard.

sofawall
2009-12-25, 02:33 AM
this is hardly "penalizing" wizards...
and lets say they are facing a balor, it has touch 16 and 25 dex...

7th level wizard:
round 1: out of detection range of balor, invisible, buffed... casts true strike
round 2: closes in on balor, hits him with shivering touch, no save, thanks to true strike, no miss. then he casts a quickened true strike.
then he casts celerity, and hits him with another shivering touch...
And those shiverings? they were also maximized thanks to rod of maximize...
thats 36 dex damage, the balor is down.

How are you using two swifts in one turn?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 02:37 AM
Not to mention:

If your argument that balors aren't bad involves more than one of the following:

Gate
Celerity
Simulacrum
Shivering Touch
Maw of Chaos
Time Stop

Then your view is warped.

If it uses more than 1 casting of more than 1 of the above?

Seriously warped. These spells are covered by numerous gentlemen's agreements.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:39 AM
How are you using two swifts in one turn?

oh, you are right that will not work. swift and immediate, but I can still only do one...

that being said, I don't actually need that quickened true strike.
so that second true strike, the quickened one, is not included...

that means I have to rely on the fist shivering touch's reduction of touch AC to ensure the next one hits...
@ level 9 my bab is 4...
a balors touch is 16, however I hit it for 18 dex damage so it went down by 9.
so it is a 7 now. I should have no problem hitting that with a bit of dex.

it is ironic that you would call it a schrudinger wizard, it is the same wizard that killed my dragon, using the exact same tactic, only now he is used on a balor... I just raised him two levels so i can be guaranteed to punch via SR, and made a few corrections to what was wrong assumptions on my part (such as, casting a quickened spell and an immediate spell in the same round)...

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 02:48 AM
oh, you are right that will not work. swift and immediate, but I can still only do one...

that being said, I don't actually need that quickened true strike.
so that second true strike, the quickened one, is not included...

that means I have to rely on the fist shivering touch's reduction of touch AC to ensure the next one hits...
@ level 9 my bab is 4...
a balors touch is 16, however I hit it for 18 dex damage so it went down by 9.
so it is a 7 now. I should have no problem hitting that with a bit of dex.

it is ironic that you would call it a schrudinger wizard, it is the same wizard that killed my dragon, using the exact same tactic, only now he is used on a balor... I just raised him two levels so i can be guaranteed to punch via SR, and made a few corrections to what was wrong assumptions on my part (such as, casting a quickened spell and an immediate spell in the same round)...

All I'm saying is that you're busting out the bottom of the "unbalanced" barrel, and justifying it as balanced.

I could just as easily ask: What if that dragon decides it wants a simulacrum army of itself?

could the wizard defeat, say, 10,000 such dragons?

That's the problem with reaching into the barrel o' crack.

All it proves is that you can use unbalanced material.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:50 AM
All I'm saying is that you're busting out the bottom of the "unbalanced" barrel, and justifying it as balanced.

no, I am providing an example for exactly WHY it is unbalanced... I am saying that celerity + shivering touch don't just down dragons, they down almost anything. Even a balor.


I could just as easily ask: What if that dragon decides it wants a simulacrum army of itself?

could the wizard defeat, say, 10,000 such dragons?

That's the problem with reaching into the barrel o' crack.

All it proves is that you can use unbalanced material.

I am the guy saying those are unbalanced and need banning... the other guy is saying that those are perfectly ok spells and that banning them is an unfair nerf to wizard's essential abilities.

Coidzor
2009-12-25, 02:54 AM
Wait, isn't simulacrum too expensive unless one is specifically using SLAs to get around the cost?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 02:57 AM
Wait, isn't simulacrum too expensive unless one is specifically using SLAs to get around the cost?

Not really. Monsters don't worry overmuch about XP costs.

Otodetu
2009-12-25, 08:32 AM
Is there a reason people are ignoring spectral hand?

And i agree, just arguing that broken spells make a class great is fun, but not very realistic.

Darrin
2009-12-25, 10:04 AM
Wait, isn't simulacrum too expensive unless one is specifically using SLAs to get around the cost?

Summon Mirror Mephit (EttDWP) is available as a 2nd level Cleric/Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Mirror Mephits have simulacrum as a SLA 1/day (standard action to cast, no material components).

Wand of Summon Mirror Mephit (4500 GP) = Army of 50 dragons. Or Efreeti. Or Black Ethergaunts.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:34 PM
@ Darrin: Simple house rule, monsters pay the same cost for SLA abilities, summoned (conjuration - creation; by raw it doesn't summon but "create" a temporary creature) monsters cannot cast SLA which require expensive material component or XP component. Bound (planer binding, gate) which actually summons real monsters from somewhere in the universe require significant payment and cannot just be arbitrarily coerced by the summoning spell itself...

That is, if you bind a balor, it is not your bitch. Your spells protect you from it... You need to either deal with it in role playing. Or somehow manage to affect it with something like dominate monster. (ha, good luck doing that)


Is there a reason people are ignoring spectral hand?

And i agree, just arguing that broken spells make a class great is fun, but not very realistic.

the argument here is whether or not the spells are even broken
Side A: those spells are broken, everyone bans them; what you don't? well you should they are broken!
Side B: those spells are not broken, banning them is an unfair nerf to the wizard by banning a totally valid tactic.

There is an actual argument going on right now on whether or not celerity and shivering touch are actually broken.

I think I will put Otodetu and PhoenixRivers as "those spells are obviously broken" camp, since it seems that you make that assumption (I agree btw) with your posts.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-25, 01:42 PM
You forgot Side C: The spells are broken, but since not everyone bans them, a theoretical argument can't assume one way or the other.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:47 PM
You forgot Side C: The spells are broken, but since not everyone bans them, a theoretical argument can't assume one way or the other.

Side A, being me, has been having a theoretical argument about it this entire time assuming that they are allowed.
So, no there is no "side C" that allows theoretical argument.

Do you, or do you not think they are broken and as such need banning. The theoretical argument between those who think they are broken, and those that think they are not, has been about this very point.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-25, 02:45 PM
So what is the argument then? When I went to bed, the debate was if a low-level Wizard could defeat a Dragon with Shivering Touch. You held forth that he could not, because Shivering Touch would be banned by the DM (the "RAP" argument). I think the subject changed to Balors at some point instead of Dragons, but it was still whether the Wizard could easily win.That's the argument where there are people arguing case A, that the spell would be banned if this was a real game, people arguing case B, that it wouldn't be, and us few dejected holdouts for C who point out that "Rules as Played" has no place in a theoretical discussion.

Now the topic. 2 pages later, seems to be fundamentally if Celerity and Shivering Touch are broken? If that's the case, yes, there are only A and B. 'Broken enough to be banned' is a pretty binary argument. And I'm going with case A myself - I wouldn't allow either of them in the game I'm running, but that is a subjective and specific example, not theoretical.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 04:13 PM
So what is the argument then? When I went to bed, the debate was if a low-level Wizard could defeat a Dragon with Shivering Touch. You held forth that he could not, because Shivering Touch would be banned by the DM (the "RAP" argument).

No I did not...
I clearly said that while shivering would normally be banned, then I debated whether he could kill the dragon with impunity if shivering touch is allowed.
The conclusion was "he could kill the dragon with impunity at level 7 if celerity and shivering touch are allowed".


I think the subject changed to Balors at some point instead of Dragons, but it was still whether the Wizard could easily win.
No, that was when I conceded that if you allow celerity AND shivering touch a level 7 wizard could down a dragon (99.75% chance of success; 95% if he has a ring of counterspell)
However, someone said this is a unique to dragon strategy and I said it is an abusive combo that can down practically anything... for example, a balor.
Then I Showed how said wizard has a 71.25% chance to do it to a balor (75% chance to bypass SR, 95% to not roll a nat 1 on attack), and if he is 9th level instead SR becomes irrelevant and he just has to worry about the nat 1 on attack. (don't roll a nat 1 on first attack, if you do roll a 1, escape with teleport... if you succeed on first attack, don't roll a nat1 on second attack. A nat1 here will kill you, anything else will kill the balor.)


That's the argument where there are people arguing case A, that the spell would be banned if this was a real game, people arguing case B, that it wouldn't be, and us few dejected holdouts for C who point out that "Rules as Played" has no place in a theoretical discussion.
The only person in group A is me, I am saying it should be banned... yet the entire thread I justified WHY it should be banned by having a by the RAW discussion. So that makes me group C by your definition, this means group A doesn't exist. You are setting up an imaginary group A of people who think it should be banned AND refuse to have a theoretical discussion on how the game will work if it was. There is no such group. There is me, the two people who think those are good valid spells that don't need banning, and you. four people total.

As for "rules as played has no room in theoretical discussion"... I call BS. If that was the case then there will be nothing to discuss, everyone would be playing pun pun and chain gating solars. Because that is NOT how we play, there is actually a point to discuss anything...

And the conclusion I Seem to draw, and I believe I have shown... is that if you have shivering touch and celerity you can abuse the hell out of the game...


Now the topic. 2 pages later, seems to be fundamentally if Celerity and Shivering Touch are broken?
No, that came up right away. My immediate way to deal with shivering touch was "ring of counter spell with shivering touch"... it will help until much later in game when someone can cast shivering touch + quickened shivering touch in the same round.
Celerity gets over that limitation by allowing you to cast it twice in one round.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 10:45 PM
I don't see why you're making such a big deal about it. It's a good spell, but there are better. It doesn't abuse the game all that much, as it has fairly linear uses. Your so-called 'RAW discussion' was poorly thought out, at best.

Also, I think you're making up percentages.