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View Full Version : Practical Suggestion usage



alisbin
2009-12-23, 03:06 PM
hey mates,
I've recently started my first enchanter style character (Psion/Telepath) and now that i've hit 3rd level i've got Suggestion. while i've used the spell before, i was a pretty young player at the time so it basically worked as a lower level dominate... (my entire group was young and fresh, what can i say, we didn't know any better). but now that i've got some experience under my belt i'm looking to reexamine the spell and its usage.
my character is shooting for levels in thrall herd and is ONLY taking telepath powers himself (thrall will eventually cover other areas) so if you have spell combo ideas in mind i won't be able to do that unless its a telepathy power. anyway, messing with minds is his specialty and i want to do it right, both ruleswise and fluffwise.

i'd very much appreciate examples of ways that people have successfully used Suggestion, both combat and RP. let the discussion begin!

erikun
2009-12-23, 03:33 PM
Suggestion + Mindlink = evil conscience talking in their head. Suggestion + See Thoughts can lead to lots of fun, too. You'll need to be able to spend 5 PP before you can force a Mindlink onto someone unwillingly, though.

Honestly though, Suggestion is like a Super Charm Monster - you mostly want to use it when you won't be revisiting the place/character again, because most people will remember the mind control and get quite upset afterwards. Especially when you used it on the guard to "just let us adoring fans take one look at the prince".

Suggestion is also a great way to make someone look stupid. Suggestion > "Would you give this note to the prince, please?" where the note has Explosive Runes written on it. The difference between an assassination and making the duke look stupid depends on if you think the prince can survive the spell.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 03:51 PM
"Take no actions except those I ask you to do." Always a good start, as it prevents the spell/power from ending early.

Then you debuff them:
"That armor/magic ring looks uncomfortable. Don't you want to take it off?"
"Let me see your component pouch/holy symbol for a minute, friend."
"Place your weapon on the ground and kick it over here."
"Turn around and watch the door, but don't make a sound."
"Hold out your hands to your sides and keep your feet together until I say you can relax." (Then the rogue ties them up.)

Lysander
2009-12-23, 04:00 PM
I've always thought that Suggestion gets abused when you do things like "I suggest you obey everything I tell you to do" or "Give me all of your treasure" or even "let me tie you up." A suggestion must sound "reasonable." Is letting a hostile stranger command you around reasonable?

What's more reasonable:

"I look nothing like that wanted poster"
"I'm another guard. I'm here to relieve you of duty"
"I don't need to pay now. You know I'm good for it"

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 04:04 PM
I've always thought that Suggestion gets abused when you do things like "I suggest you obey everything I tell you to do" or "Give me all of your treasure" or even "let me tie you up." A suggestion must sound "reasonable." Is letting a hostile stranger command you around reasonable?

You're using very different phrasing than I did. "Take no actions" is always a reasonable request, but by itself causes the spell to end immediately. "Take no actions except the ones I request" is still reasonable, but open-ended - and the specific requests asked of the victim after that one are what determines if the spell ends or not.

Letting yourself be tied up is not "obviously harmful," unless you're using barbed wire or a snake to do it. Neither is being told to discard your weapons, or watch a doorway that just happens to be facing away from the caster.

The hostility of the caster is a non-issue - anyone who would magically force you to do something is hostile by definition, so that benchmark makes the spell useless. Only overtly harmful actions should matter.

alisbin
2009-12-23, 04:12 PM
@optimystik, wouldn't most of those break the "reasonable" requirement of the request? obviously its up to my DM in the end but how far can you really push "reasonable"? do you force the target to actually believe that what you say is reasonable?
i can think of great ways to use it in interrogation situations or as a 1 time get in to see X person, maybe i'm just overly conservative in what i try to put past my DM (seems unlikely though... i've pitched some... well thats another story).

@erikun, i like the mindlink suggestion idea, and i can think of a few targets already *evil grin*

i apologize if these seem like stupid questions, i've just never really understood the spell and i'd love to use it to its full capacity.

edit; i guess thats the problem with the spell, its so fluffy that its hard to determine what it can actually do...
also, what about combining suggestion with charm?

TheOtherGeorgeW
2009-12-23, 04:19 PM
"These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Lysander
2009-12-23, 04:36 PM
You're using very different phrasing than I did. "Take no actions" is always a reasonable request, but by itself causes the spell to end immediately. "Take no actions except the ones I request" is still reasonable, but open-ended - and the specific requests asked of the victim after that one are what determines if the spell ends or not.

Letting yourself be tied up is not "obviously harmful," unless you're using barbed wire or a snake to do it. Neither is being told to discard your weapons, or watch a doorway that just happens to be facing away from the caster.

The hostility of the caster is a non-issue - anyone who would magically force you to do something is hostile by definition, so that benchmark makes the spell useless. Only overtly harmful actions should matter.

Having your ability to move taken away is harmful. Simply not being harmful isn't enough. It has to also has to be "worded in a manner" that sounds reasonable. Which is where the fun of suggestion comes in, making your unreasonable suggestion sound reasonable.

Telling a guard "let me tie you up" is completely unreasonable. Imagine if you walked up to a cop and asked them that. Same thing. Of course it could be worded in a way to make it reasonable. "I'm a powerful wizard and you have no chance of defeating me. I suggest you surrender and let me tie you up or you'll surely die."

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 04:36 PM
@optimystik, wouldn't most of those break the "reasonable" requirement of the request? obviously its up to my DM in the end but how far can you really push "reasonable"? do you force the target to actually believe that what you say is reasonable?
i can think of great ways to use it in interrogation situations or as a 1 time get in to see X person, maybe i'm just overly conservative in what i try to put past my DM (seems unlikely though... i've pitched some... well thats another story).

I drew on OotS for my examples, actually.

"Take no actions except the ones I tell you to." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) (Prevents the spell from ending early.)

"Give me your weapon/other item." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) (Admittedly this is Charm Person, but a weaker spell, so what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander I say.)


Telling a guard "let me tie you up" is completely unreasonable. Imagine if you walked up to a cop and asked them that. Same thing. Of course it could be worded in a way to make it reasonable. "I'm a powerful wizard and you have no chance of defeating me. I suggest you surrender and let me tie you up or you'll surely die."

But I never said "let me tie you up." I said "hold your hands out to your sides until I say you can relax." A very reasonable request.

Hyooz
2009-12-23, 04:36 PM
I've always thought that Suggestion gets abused when you do things like "I suggest you obey everything I tell you to do" or "Give me all of your treasure" or even "let me tie you up." A suggestion must sound "reasonable." Is letting a hostile stranger command you around reasonable?

What's more reasonable:

"I look nothing like that wanted poster"
"I'm another guard. I'm here to relieve you of duty"
"I don't need to pay now. You know I'm good for it"

Why waste a cast of Suggestion when all of those things are covered well by the bluff skill?

My favorite suggestion was to a Lizardfolk. We were fighting around a giant cooking pot, and one of his allies had been pushed in already. I suggested that his friend was probably drowning and he should save him.

Two dead lizards in the pot. Yay.

Lysander
2009-12-23, 04:43 PM
Why waste a cast of Suggestion when all of those things are covered well by the bluff skill?

My favorite suggestion was to a Lizardfolk. We were fighting around a giant cooking pot, and one of his allies had been pushed in already. I suggested that his friend was probably drowning and he should save him.

Two dead lizards in the pot. Yay.

Well, if you're a wizard with low cha and no ranks in bluff or if your enemy has high cha and high ranks in sense motive this let's you bypass all that in favor of a will save.

Suggestion also lets you make people react unreasonably for reasonable reasons. Jumping into a cooking pot for example.