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Overshee
2009-12-23, 05:07 PM
Hey all, first off let me say that I'm posting this rather than a heavy search campaign because I'm away for the holidays and internet is limited in both bandwidth and time.

Anyways, I am playing in a campaign soon and I wanted to make a psychic warrior. I like being good, and so some degree of optimization would be nice.

I have access to most books either through my collection of the DM's, and he's fairly lenient about what books are allowed in his campaigns.


Anyways, I think my biggest gaps in knowledge are in feats and items (OK pretty much anything non SRD). What will help my character the most? We're starting at level 5, which gives us 5 feats and 9000gp for items.

Any hints for character creation would be great, along with strategies etc.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 05:18 PM
Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and Martial Study are all pretty good in the way of feats. You may also consider Expanded Knowledge to net yourself another (off class) power.

Overshee
2009-12-23, 05:25 PM
Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and Martial Study are all pretty good in the way of feats. You may also consider Expanded Knowledge to net yourself another (off class) power.

I tentatively picked out: Combat Expertise, Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Body, Psionic Meditation, and Psionic Weapon as they all seem pretty good.

Psicrystal is primarily in preparation for Expanded Knowledge because I think I'd be able to metamorph my crystal into a beastie, or mount. (BTW, I am using a weapon in this build I think [unless there's a better reason not to], what forms via metamorphosis would be good for using a weapon with)

erikun
2009-12-23, 05:40 PM
Combat Expertise = not good, unless you're getting it for another feat, like Improved Trip. You are better off just grabbing concealment (Concealing Amorpha) or using Expanded Knowledge for a power to boost your AC.

Psicrystal + Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) isn't something you can get until level 13, at least. Picking up just a Psicrystal at level 3 won't be very beneficial, unless you're grabbing it for other uses.

Psionic Meditation is good if you're using the focus for something (such as Psionic Weapon). Deep Impact is handy against creatures like Dragons, but that is a lesser concern. Cleave is useful at low levels, although you won't get much use out of Great Cleave.

Expansion and Psionic Lion’s Charge are two of the better Psychic Warrior powers - make yourself bigger and full attacks after movement.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 05:45 PM
I tentatively picked out: Combat Expertise, Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Body, Psionic Meditation, and Psionic Weapon as they all seem pretty good.

Psicrystal is primarily in preparation for Expanded Knowledge because I think I'd be able to metamorph my crystal into a beastie, or mount. (BTW, I am using a weapon in this build I think [unless there's a better reason not to], what forms via metamorphosis would be good for using a weapon with)

Psionic Body isn't doing you any good. Extra HP can easily be gained through boosting your Con score, and it saves you a feat slot. Combat Expertise is also similiarly worthless, as most things will be hitting you anyhow.

I recommend using Expansion to good ends, using things like Combat Reflexes to lockdown the opposition.

Overshee
2009-12-23, 06:08 PM
Combat Expertise = not good, unless you're getting it for another feat, like Improved Trip. You are better off just grabbing concealment (Concealing Amorpha) or using Expanded Knowledge for a power to boost your AC.

Psicrystal + Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) isn't something you can get until level 13, at least. Picking up just a Psicrystal at level 3 won't be very beneficial, unless you're grabbing it for other uses.

Psionic Meditation is good if you're using the focus for something (such as Psionic Weapon). Deep Impact is handy against creatures like Dragons, but that is a lesser concern. Cleave is useful at low levels, although you won't get much use out of Great Cleave.

Expansion and Psionic Lion’s Charge are two of the better Psychic Warrior powers - make yourself bigger and full attacks after movement.

OK, so drop CE, and PsiCA.

Psi Meditation is for Psi Weapon. I'll pick up cleave and powerattack, filling what I dropped.


Psionic Body isn't doing you any good. Extra HP can easily be gained through boosting your Con score, and it saves you a feat slot. Combat Expertise is also similiarly worthless, as most things will be hitting you anyhow.

I recommend using Expansion to good ends, using things like Combat Reflexes to lockdown the opposition.

I'll drop psionic body, that leaves me a feat to pick out.



As for powers, I chose: Expansion, Force Shield (I need AC...), Dissipating Touch (enhanceable touch attack seems worth it), body adjustment, dissolving weapon.

6th level I'll get Psionic Lion's Charge (don't actually need it till 8th level, I don't think), and at 7th greater concealing amorpha (the pp difference is so low that I don't think it's worth getting the lesser version earlier)

AslanCross
2009-12-23, 06:15 PM
I'd skip cleave, as it's one of the most situational feats in core. It only triggers when you kill a monster and there's an adjacent target you can attack afterwards.

erikun
2009-12-23, 06:21 PM
Dissipating Touch? It'll be more use to you than a Psion, but remember that you have naturally low PP. You can't be spending 10 PP each round without running out quickly.

Vigor is also very handy. 5 x PP spent, lasting 1 min/level? That's better returns than Body Adjustment, which only heals 1d12 for every two PP spent. Still, Body Adjustment can help when your hurt, while Vigor can only help beforehand.

Greater Concealing Amorpha is 1 round/level, while Concealing Amorpha is 1 minute/level. Cheaper, too. If you can get an item to grant additional miss chance, even better.

Remember that Dissolving Weapon is only good for one successful hit with the weapon. Not that you can use it after one round anyways. I wouldn't recommend both this and Dissipating Touch. (The touch attack deals better damage at this point - 1d6/PP rather than 4d6 + 1d6/2 PP. That's 5d6 for 5 PP and only better for Dissipating Touch.)

Overshee
2009-12-23, 06:25 PM
I'd skip cleave, as it's one of the most situational feats in core. It only triggers when you kill a monster and there's an adjacent target you can attack afterwards.

I'm gonna be large, so I can reach many more squares (reminder to self: combat reflexes as suggested for that last feat), I also think that there's a fair chance of a kill using my 5d6+ (3d6 large greatsword + 2d6 psi weapon + possible 4d6 from dissolving weapon + possible 2d6 from deep crystal). Granted I can't spend pp on dissolving weapon and deep crystal that often in a fight but still.

Overshee
2009-12-23, 07:43 PM
Dissipating Touch? It'll be more use to you than a Psion, but remember that you have naturally low PP. You can't be spending 10 PP each round without running out quickly.

Vigor is also very handy. 5 x PP spent, lasting 1 min/level? That's better returns than Body Adjustment, which only heals 1d12 for every two PP spent. Still, Body Adjustment can help when your hurt, while Vigor can only help beforehand.

Greater Concealing Amorpha is 1 round/level, while Concealing Amorpha is 1 minute/level. Cheaper, too. If you can get an item to grant additional miss chance, even better.

Remember that Dissolving Weapon is only good for one successful hit with the weapon. Not that you can use it after one round anyways. I wouldn't recommend both this and Dissipating Touch. (The touch attack deals better damage at this point - 1d6/PP rather than 4d6 + 1d6/2 PP. That's 5d6 for 5 PP and only better for Dissipating Touch.)

Very good points. I liked dissolving weapon because I can do massive amounts of damage at once with it, but maybe I'll drop it.

Do you have a specific power list you recommend for a level 5 (and potentially beyond that)

Hyfigh
2009-12-23, 07:46 PM
I'm gonna be large, so I can reach many more squares (reminder to self: combat reflexes as suggested for that last feat), I also think that there's a fair chance of a kill using my 5d6+ (3d6 large greatsword + 2d6 psi weapon + possible 4d6 from dissolving weapon + possible 2d6 from deep crystal). Granted I can't spend pp on dissolving weapon and deep crystal that often in a fight but still.

That alone is only about 35 damage average. A standard fighter ought to be close to matching this when all is said and done, plus full attacking. Try not to have to focus on using PP to increase your damage and just boost your regular damage to put the fighter to shame.

When you can do it, Expanded Knowledge: Metamorphasis will open many doors and allow you to get rid of Expansion (or, better yet keep it for even nastier combos) and polymorph into a Furbolg or something else with outrageous strength (War Troll maybe?).

Try to spend many of your feats on battlefield control. Having Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack could be of great benefit as well.

Overshee
2009-12-23, 08:02 PM
That alone is only about 35 damage average. A standard fighter ought to be close to matching this when all is said and done, plus full attacking. Try not to have to focus on using PP to increase your damage and just boost your regular damage to put the fighter to shame.

How would you recommend doing this besides expansion for extra damage (1 1/2 str modifier once I have expansion on will be 8 extra damage).


When you can do it, Expanded Knowledge: Metamorphasis will open many doors and allow you to get rid of Expansion (or, better yet keep it for even nastier combos) and polymorph into a Furbolg or something else with outrageous strength (War Troll maybe?).

That won't occur till level 13 or so. I'll look for ridiculous monsters then I guess. (Too bad you cant turn into an outsider, although that would just make me ridiculous.)


Try to spend many of your feats on battlefield control. Having Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack could be of great benefit as well.

Would you recommend those feats over PsiMed, PsiWeap, (power attack,) Cleave, and Combat Expertise?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 08:16 PM
Would you recommend those feats over PsiMed, PsiWeap, (power attack,) Cleave, and Combat Expertise?

Psionic Meditation and Psionic Weapon will not be worth much to you, since you shouldn't be blowing your focus for anything. Also, Psionic Weapon is good on one attack only, and, for the most part in 3.5, if you ain't doing a full attack (or using a spell or similar ability), you ain't doing much.

Cleave and Combat Expertise, as has already been mentioned, are both pretty much jank and only good for qualifying for PrCs or something similar. The AC race falters, considering most threats have much, much, much higher to-hit values or go for touch AC instead. Miss chances solve that problem.

Overshee
2009-12-23, 08:24 PM
Psionic Meditation and Psionic Weapon will not be worth much to you, since you shouldn't be blowing your focus for anything. Also, Psionic Weapon is good on one attack only, and, for the most part in 3.5, if you ain't doing a full attack (or using a spell or similar ability), you ain't doing much.

Cleave and Combat Expertise, as has already been mentioned, are both pretty much jank and only good for qualifying for PrCs or something similar. The AC race falters, considering most threats have much, much, much higher to-hit values or go for touch AC instead. Miss chances solve that problem.

OK, I understand that all. Thanks for the explanation.

So now jumping attacks to deal massive amounts of damage has been suggested. Is this the best course of action? What other feats would be worth picking up? (On the other hand I don't wanna be a total one trick pony. It also incurs massive AC penalties, which seems to make it a lot less worth it if there are two enemies next to each other. You can kill one, but the other is gonna cream you the next turn.)



edit: Also, man this makes me feel like a noob. I hope I'm not frustrating you guys by not knowing much/anything about this stuff.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 08:31 PM
OK, I understand that all. Thanks for the explanation.

So now jumping attacks to deal massive amounts of damage has been suggested. Is this the best course of action? What other feats would be worth picking up? (On the other hand I don't wanna be a total one trick pony. It also incurs massive AC penalties, which seems to make it a lot less worth it if there are two enemies next to each other. You can kill one, but the other is gonna cream you the next turn.)

Going the Ubercharger route is one way to playing a tank. Of course, it's more howitzer than tank, but you get the point. Another option is to grab a reach weapon, preferably the infamous spiked chain, combat reflexes, stand still, and improved trip. When anyone gets near you, you slap em with the chain, trip them, and then wail on them. They try to get away? You keep them from doing so.



edit: Also, man this makes me feel like a noob. I hope I'm not frustrating you guys by not knowing much/anything about this stuff.

Don't worry about it. There are a lot of pitfalls to realizing what's effective in DND. If you want, I may be able to find a guide relevant to your interests that can explain it better than I.

EDIT: Here's the link. The guide lists several different builds, each with their own schticks. Pick which ever appeals to you the most. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539114/Psychic_Warrior_Build_Guide_38_Compendium_RevisedP sychic)

Overshee
2009-12-23, 09:09 PM
Going the Ubercharger route is one way to playing a tank. Of course, it's more howitzer than tank, but you get the point. Another option is to grab a reach weapon, preferably the infamous spiked chain, combat reflexes, stand still, and improved trip. When anyone gets near you, you slap em with the chain, trip them, and then wail on them. They try to get away? You keep them from doing so.

Don't worry about it. There are a lot of pitfalls to realizing what's effective in DND. If you want, I may be able to find a guide relevant to your interests that can explain it better than I.

EDIT: Here's the link. The guide lists several different builds, each with their own schticks. Pick which ever appeals to you the most. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539114/Psychic_Warrior_Build_Guide_38_Compendium_RevisedP sychic)


I guess I wanna go with:


Two Hand Weapons

1: Power Attack
1: Cleave
1: Furious Charge/Reckless Charge
2: Up the Walls
3: Dodge
5: Leap Attack
6: Improved Bull Rush
8: Shock Trooper
9: Combat Expertise
11: Karmic Strike
12: Combat Reflexes
14: Leap of the Heavens
15: Expanded Knowledge-Schism or metamorphosis
17: Psychic Meditation
18: Psionic Weapon
20: Deep Impact

A sample design, this build enables you to make best use of Leap Attack by letting you fill it's requisite activation easily via Up the Walls. Later on Leap of the Heavens is used so you can just jump straightaway if there is nothing available to "Up the Walls." You get to Shock Trooper as early as possible to get best bang for your buck with Power Attack and Leap attack, and round it out with Karmic Strike/ Combat Reflexes line for additional firepower. Expanded Knowledge-Schism or Metamorphosis will insure your longevity, and Psychic Meditation line rounds you out to get to Deep Impact at the End. If Deep Impact comes to late for you just try subbing it in earlier and moving leap of the heavens to the end. Just make sure you grab a deep crystal weapon!

I like the premise of it. I think I read somewhere online that greatsword was the best weapon in DnD 3.5 purely damagewise link (http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/dnd/statistics/weapondamage/), but of course that doesn't take reach weapons and AoO's into account (especially when you're large). Should I take a longer weapon that lets me threaten more squares? (also, could I fit combat reflexes into the build to better let me do so?)

Flickerdart
2009-12-23, 09:24 PM
Threatening a lot of squares isn't very useful when you can't do something with it. A Spiked Chain-wielding tripper can do a lot with all his AoOs and his trip attempts. A random guy with a reach weapon just gets a single free hit before enemies close in, and even then if they're Medium or smaller, and even then no more often than once a turn and in reality a lot less frequently. Sure, if you took Flaws and grabbed Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, then you'd have some reach weapon fun (EWP: Spiked Chain wouldn't hurt too but I doubt you could fit that in).

Overshee
2009-12-23, 09:54 PM
Threatening a lot of squares isn't very useful when you can't do something with it. A Spiked Chain-wielding tripper can do a lot with all his AoOs and his trip attempts. A random guy with a reach weapon just gets a single free hit before enemies close in, and even then if they're Medium or smaller, and even then no more often than once a turn and in reality a lot less frequently. Sure, if you took Flaws and grabbed Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, then you'd have some reach weapon fun (EWP: Spiked Chain wouldn't hurt too but I doubt you could fit that in).

I guess I'll just stick with the standard build I picked out. Are there any items I should look at in particular? I have 9K gold to spend, and I could probably use more AC.

Hyfigh
2009-12-24, 08:48 AM
I guess I'll just stick with the standard build I picked out. Are there any items I should look at in particular? I have 9K gold to spend, and I could probably use more AC.

You seem to have an emphasis on AC. AC is OK, but try not to over do it. Having around 25-30 AC is usually much more than enough. Try to increase your miss chance with your concealment abilities and/or a ring of blinking.

Sorry to necro your question from earlier... That 35 average damage we discussed... Yes, Expansion is much more well spent PP. You can opt to do a one shot 35 average damage hit... Or you can opt to increase your base damage, though mildly, on every hit and control the field a little better because of your reach.

I'd also recommend the ACF from Mind's Eye that lets you have a Soul Bound weapon to help cut some of your WBL costs due to weaponry.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 09:08 AM
I'd also recommend the ACF from Mind's Eye that lets you have a Soul Bound weapon to help cut some of your WBL costs due to weaponry.

I just came in here to suggest this. The ACF is available here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

You get the Soulknife's main class feature as a bonus to your class - sad for them, awesome for you :smallamused: You can also add all these enhancements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm#mindBladeEnhancement) to your blade simply by spending power points when you manifest it, and your blade will even work (RAW, with all enhancements intact) in an Antimagic/Null Psionics field if you make a will save once in awhile.

Overshee
2009-12-24, 04:47 PM
You seem to have an emphasis on AC. AC is OK, but try not to over do it. Having around 25-30 AC is usually much more than enough. Try to increase your miss chance with your concealment abilities and/or a ring of blinking.

I don't think it's gonna be that high. My dex isn't gonna be great (Emphasis on will and str before dex), and I don't want to have to much of an armor check penalty because I think I'm gonna be able to power my own leap attacks with jump, getting rid of need for up the walls (or replacing it with an artifact, if I can). What armor would you recommend I get. I can boost defenses further with concealing amorpha and force shield, but that takes valuable time (I feel like I'm gonna miss 2 rounds of combat every encounter at least from buffing myself).


Sorry to necro your question from earlier... That 35 average damage we discussed... Yes, Expansion is much more well spent PP. You can opt to do a one shot 35 average damage hit... Or you can opt to increase your base damage, though mildly, on every hit and control the field a little better because of your reach.

How are you talking about boosting damage? The reach is nice, although I'd need combat reflexes (which still isn't giving me that many AoO's, because of my lacklustre dex bonus...). I realize that there's more to battlefield control than this (tripping especially), but I am having trouble deciding between 2-handed maven and tripping fiend.


I'd also recommend the ACF from Mind's Eye that lets you have a Soul Bound weapon to help cut some of your WBL costs due to weaponry.


I just came in here to suggest this. The ACF is available here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

You get the Soulknife's main class feature as a bonus to your class - sad for them, awesome for you :smallamused: You can also add all these enhancements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm#mindBladeEnhancement) to your blade simply by spending power points when you manifest it, and your blade will even work (RAW, with all enhancements intact) in an Antimagic/Null Psionics field if you make a will save once in awhile.

Awesome option, but its yet more time before I'm actually in combat.

It seems like I'd be casting at least Call Weaponry (1 round) and Expansion (1 standard action), and possibly concealing amorpha and force shield, just to prep if I took this option. Expansion can be swifted, but it's super expensive (+6pp) so I'm not sure that's a good option.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-24, 04:55 PM
Isn't there a metapsionic feat (linked I think) that lets you manifest two (or possibly more powers) at the same time, with an increased PP cost of course

Keld Denar
2009-12-24, 05:25 PM
A neat trick if you do get a PsiCrystal is to manifest Vigor, share it with your PsiCrystal, and then manifest Share Pain on it. This splits damage evenly between you and it, and with the extra temp HP from Vigor, allows you to absorb a TON of damage.

Another thing to keep in mind, that a lot of people forget, is that when you Expand, your Dex goes down. That affects your ability to make AoOs with Combat Reflexes. Remedied late game by a +dex item, but still something to keep in mind when picking your starting ability scores.

Have you considered a King of Smack build? Manifesting Claws of the Beast and taking feats like Expansion, Improved Natural Attack, and Rapid Strike to make hard hitting natural attacks your game? Even at level 5, you should be able to pull out some 2d6 Claws, and by level 6 (assuming you take INA at that level) you'll be even stronger.

Alternatively, there is the Tashalatoran King of Smack, using the Tashalatora feat in Secrets of Sarlona (an Eberron book). It combines your Monk levels with any Psionic class. Monk2/PsyWar3 would give you the unarmed capabilities of a Monk5. Expand and Improved Natural Attack and your Monkly UAS damage will increase faster than any weapon damage could.

You can also be a fairly competant Grappler. Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) with either King of Smack build is pretty awesome. Manifest Grip of Iron and Expansion (or better yet, use Link Power in Complete Psion to get both at the same time) and you get a +9 on your grapple check right there. Combine that with the +4 from Improved Grapple and whatever your base Str is, and you'll be able to huggle foes to death. After that, find some way to get Constrict (Shape Soulmeld: Kraken Mantle + Open Lesser Chakra or Martial Study: Mountain Hammer + Martial Stance: Crushing Weight of the Mountain) and your foes will have the life crushed from them by your massive crushing power.


Isn't there a metapsionic feat (linked I think) that lets you manifest two (or possibly more powers) at the same time, with an increased PP cost of course

Yea, Link Power, its in Complete Psion. You manifest 2 powers. One costs regular cost and is in effect immediately, the 2nd costs 1.5x the PP, and comes into effect at the start of your next turn for no action cost.

Its great with Grip of Iron, since it only costs 1 PP and can't be augemented. Expansion for 3 PP (for the Extend) and link to Grip of Iron for another 2 PP. When you start your next turn ready to grapple a fool, you'll have a +9 effective bonus over whatever you had the previous round.

Overshee
2009-12-24, 08:01 PM
A neat trick if you do get a PsiCrystal is to manifest Vigor, share it with your PsiCrystal, and then manifest Share Pain on it. This splits damage evenly between you and it, and with the extra temp HP from Vigor, allows you to absorb a TON of damage.

This would require the psicrystal feat and I'm feat-starved enough as is...


Another thing to keep in mind, that a lot of people forget, is that when you Expand, your Dex goes down. That affects your ability to make AoOs with Combat Reflexes. Remedied late game by a +dex item, but still something to keep in mind when picking your starting ability scores.

Very true. I still think str and wis are more important than dex, though, would you agree?



Have you considered a King of Smack build? Manifesting Claws of the Beast and taking feats like Expansion, Improved Natural Attack, and Rapid Strike to make hard hitting natural attacks your game? Even at level 5, you should be able to pull out some 2d6 Claws, and by level 6 (assuming you take INA at that level) you'll be even stronger.

Alternatively, there is the Tashalatoran King of Smack, using the Tashalatora feat in Secrets of Sarlona (an Eberron book). It combines your Monk levels with any Psionic class. Monk2/PsyWar3 would give you the unarmed capabilities of a Monk5. Expand and Improved Natural Attack and your Monkly UAS damage will increase faster than any weapon damage could.

In the requirements it has "Monastic Training (psionic class)," but I can't find reference to that anywhere else. What does this mean?


You can also be a fairly competant Grappler. Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) with either King of Smack build is pretty awesome. Manifest Grip of Iron and Expansion (or better yet, use Link Power in Complete Psion to get both at the same time) and you get a +9 on your grapple check right there. Combine that with the +4 from Improved Grapple and whatever your base Str is, and you'll be able to huggle foes to death. After that, find some way to get Constrict (Shape Soulmeld: Kraken Mantle + Open Lesser Chakra or Martial Study: Mountain Hammer + Martial Stance: Crushing Weight of the Mountain) and your foes will have the life crushed from them by your massive crushing power.

Never really found grapplers cool, and while I understand I'm asking for optimization I'd rather go with the smackdown :)


Yea, Link Power, its in Complete Psion. You manifest 2 powers. One costs regular cost and is in effect immediately, the 2nd costs 1.5x the PP, and comes into effect at the start of your next turn for no action cost.

Its great with Grip of Iron, since it only costs 1 PP and can't be augemented. Expansion for 3 PP (for the Extend) and link to Grip of Iron for another 2 PP. When you start your next turn ready to grapple a fool, you'll have a +9 effective bonus over whatever you had the previous round.

Ooh, this looks super useful. I'll try to pick it up.

tyckspoon
2009-12-24, 08:53 PM
In the requirements it has "Monastic Training (psionic class)," but I can't find reference to that anywhere else. What does this mean?


It's another feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting that allows you to multiclass between Monk and whatever you take Monastic Training for. Useless except as a prereq in a Tashalatora build, as you will never be going back to Monk after you start in your psionic class.

Overshee
2009-12-24, 09:21 PM
It's another feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting that allows you to multiclass between Monk and whatever you take Monastic Training for. Useless except as a prereq in a Tashalatora build, as you will never be going back to Monk after you start in your psionic class.

Sigh, another feat needed to get to it >.<

I only have 5 feats to start with, still don't know what to do. A lot of the builds I have found are for level 20's and aren't really all they're cracked up to be at lower levels.

Will I really be better with unarmed than with a huge freakin sword and all the str damage that entails?




EDIT: to make this easier, let's list ways to improve unarmed damage:
Claws of the Beast
Improved Unarmed Strike/Natural Attack (are these the same? Seen both on the net)
Superior Unarmed Strike.
The amulet of mighty fists (even better The Necklace of Natural Attack)
Gauntlets (but these wouldn't stack with claws of the beast, right?)
Monk's Belt
Greater Magic Fang + Permanancy
battlefist


I honestly have no clue how these can work together and stack though.

Overshee
2009-12-25, 01:08 AM
OK so Improved Natural Attack helps claws but the Unarmed Strikes don't.

Besides expansion and spells which enhance the size of your weapons, such as mighty whallop, it seems hard to increase claw damage.

Revised powers list is:
Expansion,
Claws of the Beast,
Force Screen
Body Adjustment
Psionic Lion's Charge

As for feats, I'm back to square one.

Improved Natural Attack (bab +4)
Imp Init seems handy,
Battlejump (double damage if I jump 5 feet down? That's only a DC20 check!)
Combat Reflexes (IDK about this one, dex is low with expansion up)
Twinned Power
Psicrystal Affinity (+2 init)
Weapon Finesse, switching str and dex, fixes combat reflexes and boosts AC)
Rapidstrike (bab of +10)


Also, still have 9K to spend.

Samb
2009-12-25, 01:33 AM
What race? any flaws allowed? LA buyback?

You should listen to everyone on vigor, share pain, psicrystal combo. Forget body adjustment, this combo will make you a tank. Get it and love it. This is a must for any manifesting class, even psions and wilders.

You never specified a theme, one minute I see psi-charger, now I see king of smack. You have to make up your mind because you can't make both.

Some combos I like:
1) PSV make you a tank and you need it for every build.
2) Deep impact+Power attack: you don't need shock-trooper to hit on a max'd PA with deep impact so it will save you feats for your uber charger.
3) Linked power (hustle to hustle) and psionic mediation: Hustle gives you a move action, psionic mediation lets you use that move action to regain your focus to do other things with (like deep impact). The second hustle doesn't count as an action, so you are free to manifest it again (and link it). So with 3 move actions in one round you can use it as you see fit.
4) You need to get both schism and metamorphosis.

Overshee
2009-12-25, 01:48 AM
What race? any flaws allowed? LA buyback?

I found athasian human in a dragon magazine and DM approved it. +2 to any 2 abilities, a bunch of extra pp, and some free powers from the psion list.


You should listen to everyone on vigor, share pain, psicrystal combo. Forget body adjustment, this combo will make you a tank. Get it and love it. This is a must for any manifesting class, even psions and wilders.

K, well I have psicrystal in feats, I guess I could drop force screen and body adjustment and pick up vigor and share pain.


You never specified a theme, one minute I see psi-charger, now I see king of smack. You have to make up your mind because you can't make both.

I know, I know. I have decided on a smacker, unless I get a good reason not to. I put semi-optimized in the title because I don't want to be ridiculously cheap, just better than everyone else (there's a bit of a running competition for most effective in my group, however that's decided amoungst us). I'm not doing a tripper for this reason.


Some combos I like:
1) PSV make you a tank and you need it for every build.
2) Deep impact+Power attack: you don't need shock-trooper to hit on a max'd PA with deep impact so it will save you feats for your uber charger.
3) Linked power (hustle to hustle) and psionic mediation: Hustle gives you a move action, psionic mediation lets you use that move action to regain your focus to do other things with (like deep impact). The second hustle doesn't count as an action, so you are free to manifest it again (and link it). So with 3 move actions in one round you can use it as you see fit.
4) You need to get both schism and metamorphosis.

1) Added
2) I'm going smack
3) I will try to pick up hustle next level, and psi med if I can fit it in feats.
4) I will. Earliest I can do so is level 13 though I believe.

Samb
2009-12-25, 02:09 AM
Okay I have some more I just thought of:
5) Astral construct is great for any build as it increases the number of attack you get, but not needed.
6) Astral construct and metamorphosis can be gotten via an ACF called mantled psywar, which allows for AC at level 1 and metamorph at level 10. Also get metamorphic transfer for Su abilities.
7) King of smack usually uses Elan, but consider Synad who are also aberrations but they get +2 on all will saves (pretty much) and a built in schism right from the get go, kalashtar is worth looking into as well to turn into some crazy stuff.
8) Gear: boots of temporal acceleration is a must. Torc of power preservation is good too since you have puny PP pool. Try for the SRD/XPH version, but if he only allows the MIC version buy a bunch of them. Also try to boost WIS as much as possible.
9) Speaking of puny PP pool, you will be using all your spare feats on psionic talent. The bonuses add up.
10) If using ToB maneuvers, consider psionic mediation+psychic renewal. Psychic renewal allows for you to expend your focus to regain a used maneuver. With the linked power hustle trick you will always be hitting them with your deadliest attack.
11) Needless to say, keep your concentration as high as possible. Change your psicrystal personality to single-minded. That will be much more helpful in the long run.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-25, 02:56 AM
Are flaws allowed? Them's two more feats right there.

I definitely suggest Link Power, Psicrystal Affinity, and Psionic Meditation or Psicrystal Containment (though you could avoid one of the latter two for a few levels if you need the feat).

I'd suggest you Two-Hand a reach weapon (go glaive or guisarme to save a feat), and bite of the wolf rather than claws of the beast to hit adjacent creatures, as the former auto-scales with your psywar levels (and you can also use it as a primary natural weapon for the purposes of AoOs, which is great for additional damage from Str).

Make your ability scores Wis >= Dex >= Str > Con > Int > Cha (or you can swap Con for Str if you want). You'll want a good Wis for more pp, a good Str for damage and trip potential, Dex for AC, Init, Ref saves, and number of AoOs. Con can be slightly sub-par, considering you can boost your Fort save and hp very easily. Int and Cha are less important (though you'll likely want a 12 or so in Int if you can afford it, for a few more skill points).

Your feats could possibly be as follows, for level 5:

1. Psicrystal Affinity (I suggest Nimble for the +2 to Init), Combat Reflexes (Flaws, if allowed: Improved Initiative, Hidden Talent [vigor or maybe psionic minor creation for making poisons and utility stuff] or Combat Expertise [see level 5]).

2. Link Power (from Complete Psionic; combine with a swift action buff to prevent lag in buff-times during a fight).

3. Psicrystal Containment or Psionic Meditation (the former for two psionic foci that you can expend before needing to recharge, or the latter if you don't mind not moving much, and want to use your move actions for additional foci [or you can just blow pp on hustle]).

5. One psionic or fighter feat of your choice. You might consider a stance from Tome of Battle for a perma-buff, or Up the Walls or Speed of Thought to improve your mobility, Extend Power to increase your buff durations, or the feat you didn't pick at level 3. Alternately, you can take some other feat that you like better. If you decided to take Combat Expertise at level 1, you can get Improved Trip here, and get your Attacks of Opportunity coupled with a trip attempt (at a hefty bonus) and a free attack with a bonus, as well as an extra AoO when your victim tries to stand up.

As for your powers:
1. Expansion (and possibly vigor, psionic minor creation or some other power)
2. Grip of iron or hammer
3. Bite of the wolf (scaling damage!)
4. Strength of my enemy (for boosting your Str score immensely, especially on chain-gun tripping)
5. Psionic lion's charge, concealing amorpha, dimension swap, or hustle, depending on how offensive, defensive, or mobile you want to be. Could research share pain, since that's a great way to pseudo-heal (since you can't use an Expanded Knowledge yet).

As for equipment:
I'd suggest a psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor (see the item section in Complete Psionic), a glaive or guisarme, a Heward's handy haversack, a cheap +Wis item, and a few +1 arrows of manifesting (note that the price in the XPH is for 50 of them, and each one grants +5 pp). Beyond that, grab a magical cloth armor when you can find one (no armor check penalty, but magical armor enhancements) and eventually a monk's belt (stacks with the psychoactive skin).

You can get yourself access to metamorphosis as early as level 10 if you find ways to pump up your Psicraft and research it. Then you can craft a psychoactive skin of proteus (ML 7 metamorphosis at will), and get a psychic reformation or retraining to sub out the crafting feats (including the Apprentice [craftsman] feat from the DMG2 and the Extraordinary Artisan and Legendary Artisan feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting).

There are other things you can do as a psywar, but this should do you well for now. Just remember that you can manifest a Linked swift action power with a buff power, then a standard action buff Linked with another power to get off 4 powers by round 2, using only 1 round to actually buff. This could be a grip of iron/strength of my enemy plus an expansion/bite of the wolf combined with Combat Reflexes to AoO everything within 20 ft into being tripped prone and attacked (while you're gaining Strength bonuses and they're losing them). You can change your powers and modus operandi according to your situation, of course, and this only improves as you gain levels.

And don't forget to use your +1 arrows of manifesting to fuel your share pain/vigor combo, or that you can share other powers on your psicrystal as well (and that, RAW, your psicrystal does gain feats for being an intelligent creature with HD of its own; give it good feats, maybe similar to the killer gnome build, and you're good to go).

Overshee
2009-12-25, 02:59 PM
Okay I have some more I just thought of:
5) Astral construct is great for any build as it increases the number of attack you get, but not needed.
6) Astral construct and metamorphosis can be gotten via an ACF called mantled psywar, which allows for AC at level 1 and metamorph at level 10. Also get metamorphic transfer for Su abilities.
7) King of smack usually uses Elan, but consider Synad who are also aberrations but they get +2 on all will saves (pretty much) and a built in schism right from the get go, kalashtar is worth looking into as well to turn into some crazy stuff.
8) Gear: boots of temporal acceleration is a must. Torc of power preservation is good too since you have puny PP pool. Try for the SRD/XPH version, but if he only allows the MIC version buy a bunch of them. Also try to boost WIS as much as possible.
9) Speaking of puny PP pool, you will be using all your spare feats on psionic talent. The bonuses add up.
10) If using ToB maneuvers, consider psionic mediation+psychic renewal. Psychic renewal allows for you to expend your focus to regain a used maneuver. With the linked power hustle trick you will always be hitting them with your deadliest attack.
11) Needless to say, keep your concentration as high as possible. Change your psicrystal personality to single-minded. That will be much more helpful in the long run.

5) I can get astral construct via my race. It looks pretty awesome.
6) The downside of mantled warrior is that you don't get to choose your own powers, is that correct?
7) Kalashtars look good, but the race I'm using gets 6 extra pp by level 5 (and more after that) as well as two free powers from the psion list (one level 1 and one level 2, and more at higher levels), as well as to +2s to the abilities of his choice. Seems too good to pass up.
8) What are the prices of those?
9) Using my race at level 5 I have 25 power points after wis bonus. That's a lot for a psychic warrior I believe.
10) Ooh, thats nifty. I'll try to fit them in.
11) It's currently at 9 for v1 of my character (made before I posted this thread) I can probably get it higher.



Are flaws allowed? Them's two more feats right there.

Yes. Shaky (-2 ranged) and ?


I definitely suggest Link Power, Psicrystal Affinity, and Psionic Meditation or Psicrystal Containment (though you could avoid one of the latter two for a few levels if you need the feat).

Link power and Psicrystal Affinity sound good. The other two are harder to work in, but I've noted them.


I'd suggest you Two-Hand a reach weapon (go glaive or guisarme to save a feat), and bite of the wolf rather than claws of the beast to hit adjacent creatures, as the former auto-scales with your psywar levels (and you can also use it as a primary natural weapon for the purposes of AoOs, which is great for additional damage from Str).

Interesting. I don't get two attacks per round with it but it sure is cheaper. (The manifesting time is worse too, although if I link it with expansion I don't think it would matter...).

I think the claws would be primary too... Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. What's the bonus Str damage (+str mod?).

The reach weapon is very interesting, however, I don't think I can get my dex high enough (especially when expansion'd) to give me the AoO's to make it matter.


Make your ability scores Wis >= Dex >= Str > Con > Int > Cha (or you can swap Con for Str if you want). You'll want a good Wis for more pp, a good Str for damage and trip potential, Dex for AC, Init, Ref saves, and number of AoOs. Con can be slightly sub-par, considering you can boost your Fort save and hp very easily. Int and Cha are less important (though you'll likely want a 12 or so in Int if you can afford it, for a few more skill points).

I got lucky on my rolls 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 9. I then get two +2s for race (I applied to Wis and Str), giving 20 to wis, 18 to str, and 14 to dex. When I expand, I get +2 to str and -2 to dex, leaving me with a +1 bonus to dex... Not very good for AoO's...


Your feats could possibly be as follows, for level 5:

1. Psicrystal Affinity (I suggest Nimble for the +2 to Init), Combat Reflexes (Flaws, if allowed: Improved Initiative, Hidden Talent [vigor or maybe psionic minor creation for making poisons and utility stuff] or Combat Expertise [see level 5]).

2. Link Power (from Complete Psionic; combine with a swift action buff to prevent lag in buff-times during a fight).

3. Psicrystal Containment or Psionic Meditation (the former for two psionic foci that you can expend before needing to recharge, or the latter if you don't mind not moving much, and want to use your move actions for additional foci [or you can just blow pp on hustle]).

5. One psionic or fighter feat of your choice. You might consider a stance from Tome of Battle for a perma-buff, or Up the Walls or Speed of Thought to improve your mobility, Extend Power to increase your buff durations, or the feat you didn't pick at level 3. Alternately, you can take some other feat that you like better. If you decided to take Combat Expertise at level 1, you can get Improved Trip here, and get your Attacks of Opportunity coupled with a trip attempt (at a hefty bonus) and a free attack with a bonus, as well as an extra AoO when your victim tries to stand up.

I had picked out similar ones:
Imp Init
Battlejump
Combat Reflexes
Twin Power
Psicrystal Affinity (+2 init)

plus any from flaws.

Could you explain to me how the psionic craft would work? I've never made a crafter before so examples would be really helpful.


As for your powers:
1. Expansion (and possibly vigor, psionic minor creation or some other power)
2. Grip of iron or hammer
3. Bite of the wolf (scaling damage!)
4. Strength of my enemy (for boosting your Str score immensely, especially on chain-gun tripping)
5. Psionic lion's charge, concealing amorpha, dimension swap, or hustle, depending on how offensive, defensive, or mobile you want to be. Could research share pain, since that's a great way to pseudo-heal (since you can't use an Expanded Knowledge yet).

1(racial). Astral Construct
1(racial). Ego Whip (told the cha damage makes this spell very nice)
1. Expansion,
2. Claws or bite (depending on the one I pick)
3. vigor
4. Share pain
5. Psionic Lion's Pounce


As for equipment:
I'd suggest a psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor (see the item section in Complete Psionic), a glaive or guisarme, a Heward's handy haversack, a cheap +Wis item, and a few +1 arrows of manifesting (note that the price in the XPH is for 50 of them, and each one grants +5 pp). Beyond that, grab a magical cloth armor when you can find one (no armor check penalty, but magical armor enhancements) and eventually a monk's belt (stacks with the psychoactive skin).

Ectoplastic armor: +8 AC is really nice but it's another standard action before I can fight...
reach weapon: but can I get dex high enough to matter
HHH: I don't think the GM cares about encumbrance, we hate fumbling around with it.
Cheap +Wis: I'm at 20, but I could always use more. I don't know of any cheap ones though.
Arrows of manifesting: wow.
Magical Cloth Armor: I'll look into those when I get the GP.


You can get yourself access to metamorphosis as early as level 10 if you find ways to pump up your Psicraft and research it. Then you can craft a psychoactive skin of proteus (ML 7 metamorphosis at will), and get a psychic reformation or retraining to sub out the crafting feats (including the Apprentice [craftsman] feat from the DMG2 and the Extraordinary Artisan and Legendary Artisan feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting).

I'll ask the DM but I don't think he'd like the retraining...


There are other things you can do as a psywar, but this should do you well for now. Just remember that you can manifest a Linked swift action power with a buff power, then a standard action buff Linked with another power to get off 4 powers by round 2, using only 1 round to actually buff. This could be a grip of iron/strength of my enemy plus an expansion/bite of the wolf combined with Combat Reflexes to AoO everything within 20 ft into being tripped prone and attacked (while you're gaining Strength bonuses and they're losing them). You can change your powers and modus operandi according to your situation, of course, and this only improves as you gain levels.

That's a lot of powers. The combat reflexes only allows up to dex bonus I thought... so not really everyone... 3 people max before expansion.


And don't forget to use your +1 arrows of manifesting to fuel your share pain/vigor combo, or that you can share other powers on your psicrystal as well (and that, RAW, your psicrystal does gain feats for being an intelligent creature with HD of its own; give it good feats, maybe similar to the killer gnome build, and you're good to go).

Oh wow it gets feats? I was gonna use it with metamorphosis later, but that looks awesome. I looked up killer gnome but I don't really see how that would help?



(again everyone, thanks for all the help.)

Overshee
2009-12-26, 03:54 AM
Bump for the gentiles :-P

P.S. not gonna have internet for a day or two but all comments are extremely helpful and I'd love as many as possible :)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 04:22 AM
If I were to take 2 flaws for a melee focus PsyWar?

Shaky and Murky-eyed.

A lot of people don't like Murky-eyed. After all, it's a pick the worst of 2 rolls for concealment.

Note: Once you get to mid levels, on any fight where concealment is an issue, you can manifest Touchsight (via Expanded Knowledge).

I can't recommend touchsight strongly enough. It negates invisibility, illusion, hiding, and even darkstalker. It's a very, very useful power, on the occasions you need it.

For powers? I'd lean away from direct damage, and towards personal enhancement. Expansion, weapon enhancers, strength boosters, accuracy boosters.

There's a level 2 PsyWar power in CompPsi that changes your weapon to force for a round. Highly recommended. First, Force can hit almost anything. It bypasses incorporeal, ethereal, blink, and more.

Second? Force damage bypasses DR. Very few things are resistant/immune to force.

Overshee
2009-12-26, 04:24 AM
I am actually about to go to sleep, but I thought I'd post this for persual and a note for myself:

I thought I read about a feat where you gain benefits for being _near_ another psionic user. Does it actually exist and would it benefit my psicrystal?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 04:28 AM
I am actually about to go to sleep, but I thought I'd post this for persual and a note for myself:

I thought I read about a feat where you gain benefits for being _near_ another psionic user. Does it actually exist and would it benefit my psicrystal?

Not sure. If it did, it would only help you if your psicrystal had a PP reserve.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 04:33 AM
Alternatively, there is the Tashalatoran King of Smack, using the Tashalatora feat in Secrets of Sarlona (an Eberron book). It combines your Monk levels with any Psionic class.

Just wanted to point out that you don't even need the book (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5) for this.

Samb
2009-12-26, 07:27 AM
Not sure. If it did, it would only help you if your psicrystal had a PP reserve.
Which your psicrystal could have if it took hidden talent or psionic talent. Yes, they can have feats, thanks to them having INT, levels and listed in the the monsters section.

What race are you using Overshee? A homebrew one? I don't know of any race that gives a free hidden talent and gives 6 bonus PP in five levels.

Hyfigh
2009-12-28, 09:44 AM
I forgot about potentially adding a two level dip into Chameleon if you decide to take the Human route. The bonus feat can be used to take on Expanded Knowledge: X, which will really add to your versatility.

Keld Denar
2009-12-28, 04:10 PM
The nice thing about Monastic Training is that it says you can select it in place of ANY of your other monk bonus feats...

Human
1 Monk1, Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Monastic Training (B), Scorpion Grapple, Solicit Psicrystal
2 Monk2, Combat Reflexes (B)
3 PsyWar1, Tashalatora, Practiced Manifestor
4 PsyWar2, Link Power
5 PsyWar3

then at 6th, take PsyWar4 and pick up Improved Natural Attack. At 5th, your UAS will be 1d8 while medium, or 2d6 while expanded. At 6th, your UAS will be 2d6, or 3d6 while expanded. At 7th, your UAS will be 2d8 while medium, or 3d8 while expanded, and by 9th when you take Superior Unarmed Strike, your unarmed strike will be 3d6, or 4d6 while expanded to large, or 6d6 while expanded to huge.

Powers will be Expansion, Force Screen, and Vigor. At 6th, take either Psionic Lion's Charge or Share Pain, and the other of the 2 at 7th.

A bit different than straight PsyWar, but about equal on power. Where it really gets silly though, is if you have a friendly spellcaster who can cast Greater Mighty Wallop (RotDragon) on you. Then your unarmed strikes will be dealing MASSIVE damage, much more than a straight PsyWar would be doing at that point.

Overshee
2009-12-30, 01:02 PM
Which your psicrystal could have if it took hidden talent or psionic talent. Yes, they can have feats, thanks to them having INT, levels and listed in the the monsters section.

What race are you using Overshee? A homebrew one? I don't know of any race that gives a free hidden talent and gives 6 bonus PP in five levels.

Do you know what the feat is named?

Also, the race is the Dark Sun's human race.


The nice thing about Monastic Training is that it says you can select it in place of ANY of your other monk bonus feats...

Human
1 Monk1, Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Monastic Training (B), Scorpion Grapple, Solicit Psicrystal
2 Monk2, Combat Reflexes (B)
3 PsyWar1, Tashalatora, Practiced Manifestor
4 PsyWar2, Link Power
5 PsyWar3

then at 6th, take PsyWar4 and pick up Improved Natural Attack. At 5th, your UAS will be 1d8 while medium, or 2d6 while expanded. At 6th, your UAS will be 2d6, or 3d6 while expanded. At 7th, your UAS will be 2d8 while medium, or 3d8 while expanded, and by 9th when you take Superior Unarmed Strike, your unarmed strike will be 3d6, or 4d6 while expanded to large, or 6d6 while expanded to huge.

Powers will be Expansion, Force Screen, and Vigor. At 6th, take either Psionic Lion's Charge or Share Pain, and the other of the 2 at 7th.

A bit different than straight PsyWar, but about equal on power. Where it really gets silly though, is if you have a friendly spellcaster who can cast Greater Mighty Wallop (RotDragon) on you. Then your unarmed strikes will be dealing MASSIVE damage, much more than a straight PsyWar would be doing at that point.

So this seems to be doing more damage than straight psionic bite or claws powers. I am losing two levels of PsiWar though, and I couldn't get any nifty maneuvers or anything via feats. It is fairly massive amounts of damage though.


EDIT: yeah I've decided upon a Tashalatora monk/psywar.

Overshee
2009-12-31, 12:05 AM
Few more questions, this time equipment based


This trick has been so succesful that it was integrated into the Ultimate Monk build. For all interested, I show it here.

Monks have an awful BAB for combat characters. Combined with the lack of magical inhancements from magical weapons, monks are nearly powerless. The big gimmick for the monk to have magically enhanced attacks is the amulet of mighty fists, which is unfortunately way too expensive. Fortunately, there is a trick. Get a 20th level ranger or Druid to cast Greater Magic Fang on you. This will last you all day with +5 hands, and if you have a ranger or druid in the party should prove very helpful. However, few people have 20th level rangers or druids in their adventuring party, and the best that a monk can usually afford is the potion of Greater Magic Fang +5. It lasts a whole day, but costs 3,000gp. Nobody wants to pay 3,000gp per day during their adventuring career. Fortunately, there is a spell called permanency. Even magewrights can use this spell. You should have no problem finding a caster to cast permanency on you. The result: +5 hands for the rest of your life for less than 10,000gp. Campare that to the 50,000gp needed to buy a +5 magic weapon!

How much exactly? How do I go about determining it for myself (What's the formula)?

---

Gauntlets: how exactly do they work and interact with my damage?
If gauntlets don't work, are there any other similar options?
(I'm looking for something I can make in deep crystal to augment damage with)

---

Ring of Mighty Wallop is cheap, 2,000gp apparently. +1 to size!
Fanged Ring apparently does the same thing? How much does it cost?
Monk's Belt will be good once I can afford it.

---


Anything else people can think of?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-31, 11:53 AM
Permanancied spells are vulnerable to Dispel Magic. The Ultimate Monk Build needs to take this into account, or else it does not deserve to be called "ultimate".