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Malos
2009-12-23, 05:21 PM
I am curious about something I blundered upon recently.

Apparently all 3 teleportation maneuvers from the Shadow Hand school are extraordinary abilities. (Which is amazing)

The problem comes when the Anticipate Teleport and Greater Anticipate Teleport spells rear their heads.

Below is the definition of an extraordinary ability from the DMG.

Extraordinary Abilities: Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training (which, in game terms, means to take a new character class). A monk's ability to evade attacks and a barbarian's uncanny dodge are extraordinary abilities. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

I have taken the liberty of italicizing the part that brings up a question.

Anticipate and Greater Anticipate Teleport both state that "Any teleportation spell or effect (including all spells with the teleportation descriptor) can be anticipated, making the spell's recipient instantly aware of the exact location where the teleporting creature will arrive..." It also goes on to say that it will delay the arrival of the teleporting creature by 1 round.


The question is, do these spells effect the extraordinary teleports, and if so, do they (the Anticipate spells) also delay the arrival, supercedeing the italicized text from extraordinary abilities (Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.)

Blackfang108
2009-12-23, 05:25 PM
The question is, do these spells effect the extraordinary teleports, and if so, do they (the Anticipate spells) also delay the arrival, supercedeing the italicized text from extraordinary abilities (Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.)

No. Magic does not effect (ex) abilities.

Edge of Dreams
2009-12-23, 05:25 PM
I could really see that being ruled either way. I don't think RAW is clear enough to make a distinction. As a DM, I might make my decision based on who was using each thing (npc or player?) and what effect it would have on the game short and long term.

bosssmiley
2009-12-23, 05:40 PM
Consult your DM.

AslanCross
2009-12-23, 05:41 PM
The spell is clear that it says any teleportation spell or effect is detected. All of the Shadow teleportation maneuvers are effects and have the [Teleportation] descriptor. I'd say Anticipate Teleportation works on them.

I believe the operative rule here is 'Specific trumps general,' though the RAW is indeed ambiguous.

erikun
2009-12-23, 05:45 PM
Consult your DM; this exact occurance probably isn't directly covered by RAW.

It could work either way. On one hand, the Anticipate Teleport spell is designed to affect anything teleporting in, regardless if it is magical or not. On the other hand, perhaps the Shadow Hand teleports are designed to bypass magical wards. I would need to read both to make a ruling as DM.

Stegyre
2009-12-23, 05:52 PM
The spell is clear that it says any teleportation spell or effect is detected. All of the Shadow teleportation maneuvers are effects and have the [Teleportation] descriptor. I'd say Anticipate Teleportation works on them.

I believe the operative rule here is 'Specific trumps general,' though the RAW is indeed ambiguous.
+1
The general language about effects that negate or trump magic having no impact on ex is easily trumped by the specific language of the spell (which, to be sure, is not about disrupting magic but teleportation, whatever the source).

taltamir
2009-12-23, 06:00 PM
the rules seem to fail on this regard. The DM should come up with a sensible new rule for such situations.

AslanCross
2009-12-23, 06:13 PM
This would be a lot easier if WOTC hadn't utterly screwed up the Tome of Battle errata and decided they couldn't be bothered with it anymore. :smallannoyed:

MickJay
2009-12-23, 06:18 PM
I'd say it does not work, as the wording seems to focus on spells and spell-like abilities (e.g. "spells with Teleportation descriptor" - it's the spells that are mentioned specifically, so you can argue that exceptional abilities remain unaffected as usual).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-23, 06:20 PM
The Shadow Hand things should be supernatural. Not entirely sure if they should be teleportation, though.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-23, 06:28 PM
"Negate or disrupt magic" is most likely meant to refer to things like antimagic, disjunction, dispel magic, dead magic/wild magic, etc. that affect magic as a whole. It doesn't mean that magical effects can't do squat against (Ex) abilities, it means they can't be dispelled and don't go away in an AMF.

AslanCross
2009-12-23, 06:29 PM
I'd say it does not work, as the wording seems to focus on spells and spell-like abilities (e.g. "spells with Teleportation descriptor" - it's the spells that are mentioned specifically, so you can argue that exceptional abilities remain unaffected as usual).

It says "spells or effects," though. That covers pretty much everything.

Devils_Advocate
2009-12-23, 11:52 PM
I basically agree with PairO'Dice Lost. That passage probably should read "Effects or areas that only negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities."

Otherwise you'd have to rule that resist energy can't protect against (Ex) fire damage because it can protect against magical fire. And that sure seems like it would be silly.

UserClone
2009-12-24, 12:33 AM
Shenanigans. If freedom of movement renders grappling ineffective, anticipate teleport works on maneuvers.


A martial maneuver is a[n] discrete extraordinary or supernatural effect that is temporarily expended after use.

Very cut and dried, I'm afraid.

Is it a spell or effect? Yes.
Does it have the [Teleportation] descriptor? Yes.
Does that make it a teleportation effect? Yes.
Does a teleportation effect fall into the category "teleportation spell or effect?" Yes it does.
Therefore, mustn't anticipate teleport function against it? Yes, it must.

Cyanic
2009-12-24, 09:10 AM
If I was DMing I would say the anticipate works as usual. I would say this because I would also change the EX to SU since EX on a teleport is sillyness. That and all the other reasons people have explained for why it sould still work.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 09:22 AM
This would be a lot easier if WOTC hadn't utterly screwed up the Tome of Battle errata and decided they couldn't be bothered with it anymore. :smallannoyed:

And then promptly rereleased it in 4e core. :smalltongue:


The spell is clear that it says any teleportation spell or effect is detected. All of the Shadow teleportation maneuvers are effects and have the [Teleportation] descriptor. I'd say Anticipate Teleportation works on them.

This is exactly what I would rule.

Sliver
2009-12-24, 09:26 AM
But being able to teleport without the use of magic is just extraordinary!

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 12:48 PM
But being able to teleport without the use of magic is just extraordinary!
But being able to walk on a cloud is natural.
Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. Of course it is DC 120 for the Balance check. :smallwink:

UserClone: nice rules analysis.

ericgrau
2009-12-24, 01:02 PM
No. Magic does not effect (ex) abilities.
Yes, magic can affect (Ex) abilities. You got it backwards. Effects that affect magic don't affect Ex abilities because Ex abilities aren't magic. Unless anticipate teleport says it only works on magical effects, it still works.

Douglas
2009-12-24, 01:15 PM
The question is, do these spells effect the extraordinary teleports, and if so, do they (the Anticipate spells) also delay the arrival, supercedeing the italicized text from extraordinary abilities (Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.)
You underlined the wrong word. The proper emphasis is:

Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.
Things that specifically affect magic, such as Antimagic Field, Disjunction, Dispel Magic, dead magic areas, and so on, do not affect extraordinary abilities. This has no bearing on whether an extraordinary ability is affected by something that bases its effect on some other factor, such as the teleportation descriptor.

Thus, Anticipate Teleportation and its Greater version do work against the Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers.

AslanCross
2009-12-24, 09:25 PM
If I was DMing I would say the anticipate works as usual. I would say this because I would also change the EX to SU since EX on a teleport is sillyness. That and all the other reasons people have explained for why it sould still work.

While I agree it should be (Su), the SRD's description of Ex abilities say they can break the rules of physics. I mean, Regeneration is (Ex), and it involves the regrowth of entire limbs in a few minutes and the instant reattachment of severed limbs. Where exactly do we draw the "sillyness" line?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-24, 09:28 PM
While I agree it should be (Su), the SRD's description of Ex abilities say they can break the rules of physics. I mean, Regeneration is (Ex), and it involves the regrowth of entire limbs in a few minutes and the instant reattachment of severed limbs. Where exactly do we draw the "sillyness" line?

Well, there is a difference in degree between "muck around with biology" and "warp the very fabric of space-time"--regeneration is simply a much faster version of something that real-life creatures can do (the limb reattachment might require surgical aid, but it can be done), whereas teleportation isn't an extrapolation of existing physics unless you define is as moving really really fast. Not saying that the maneuvers should definitely be (Su), just pointing out that there's a distinction between Ex physics-defying and Su physics-defying.

Pyro_Azer
2009-12-24, 11:25 PM
Well, there is a difference in degree between "muck around with biology" and "warp the very fabric of space-time"--regeneration is simply a much faster version of something that real-life creatures can do (the limb reattachment might require surgical aid, but it can be done), whereas teleportation isn't an extrapolation of existing physics unless you define is as moving really really fast. Not saying that the maneuvers should definitely be (Su), just pointing out that there's a distinction between Ex physics-defying and Su physics-defying.

Given D&D's grades in physic are somewhat lacking to begin with, I don't see how an EX teleport is all that unbeleivable after people have figured out you are able to do things like throw the moon.