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View Full Version : A PC as a villan in the party



Eguzki
2009-12-23, 05:35 PM
Not to long ago I got this idea of having one of my players be the villan for the campaign. He doesn't have to be the BBEG but he plays against the party while still being with them. Obviously he does what ever he does behind their back.

I'm having some trouble figuring out how this would work. As of right now he is just an neutral evil aligned rogue changeling. There are no clerics or paladins in the group to cast detect alignment so I'm not too worried about the party figuring out he is evil. Also they have no idea that he is a changeling they think he is just human.

The campaign is based in the frontier lands with minimal civilized influence. And as of right now it can be taken any way.

Any thoughts?

Pigkappa
2009-12-23, 05:42 PM
It all depends on the players. If they metagame a lot, as soon as they suspect something they will find an excuse to kill him and maybe his next character too (this really happened to me ;_;). If they don't, it can work, but it's always dangerous to have characters fighting each other.

Kylarra
2009-12-23, 05:46 PM
It really depends on the group and what sort of game you want to play. If you're all up for intrigue based roleplay, then sure it could work out fine, but the metagaming issues will still abound, especially if only one person is actively working against the party.

holywhippet
2009-12-23, 07:03 PM
Firstly, unless they have a really good reason to the players aren't likely to cast detect evil on their own party members. Secondly, do you have psionics allowed in your campaign? Being able to read minds and send thoughts at a distance could allow the PC to manage their "evil empire" from a distance without needing to sneak off the send out messages.

The player should be using the knowledge gleaned from working with the party indirectly. The other players shouldn't ever be asking "how did they know we were going to do X". For example, say the party is heading out to some ruins to find a lost artifact. They might run into a warband of orcs who were seemingly on their way to attack a nearby town. The orcs might capture them and locate a map that the BBEG or another player prepared and demand to know what the party were looking for. On the surface it just seems like bad luck.

Grumman
2009-12-23, 07:45 PM
Any thoughts?
Yes. Don't. If someone realises what you have planned, they'll be rightly annoyed that you were taking advantage of the PC shield. So unless you want the party to start kicking people out of the game in the future, don't do this.

dspeyer
2009-12-23, 08:05 PM
If you do this, give your players some warning. Most players will automatically trust the other PCs because that makes the game work. Fun over realism. Having this messed with feels like a DM cheat.

Of course, warning the players negates some of the point, but there are probably ways to work around this.

RandomNPC
2009-12-23, 08:23 PM
...
players will automatically trust the other PCs
...


I know i snipped a lot.... but where do you game? Seriously, if i can go one game without the players AND characters threatening eachother and whatnot, i think as ringleader (DM) of the group i'd declare the responsible party a saint.

No matter who I DM for they want to stab eachother with forks, throw things at one another, and generally threaten violence on eachother.

Grumman
2009-12-23, 08:26 PM
I know i snipped a lot.... but where do you game? Seriously, if i can go one game without the players AND characters threatening eachother and whatnot, i think as ringleader (DM) of the group i'd declare the responsible party a saint.

No matter who I DM for they want to stab eachother with forks, throw things at one another, and generally threaten violence on eachother.
That is trusting the other PCs, as demonstrated by the fact they don't follow through. "Not trusting" for an adventurer tends to involve bloodshed.

Kylarra
2009-12-23, 08:28 PM
In my experience, while there is generally more or less sniping and smart-alecky behavior that goes along around the table, there's an underlying assumption for most [good/neutral] D&D games that you're going to be working for the overall benefit of the party or at least not actively working against the rest of the party.

In "evil" games obviously the dynamic is different, but you're still working for the overall good of the party, insofar as you continue to benefit from it anyway.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-12-23, 08:46 PM
If this is a one-time gimmick, I'd definitely say run with it, because it's just the sort of thing to shake group dynamics up, and could be an epic plot twist. PC secrets are always fun.

You should talk with him, and suggest that he play up the benevolent angle, very subtly. If he's a nice guy, nobody in their right mind (unless they're paranoid) will think to cast Detect Evil. Either that, or you could always just give him a lead sheet. :smallwink: But yes, don't have him be very overt. Have him make sure that he's ingratiating himself into the party, without their notice.

Have him sacrifice his own goals to the goals of the party, even if this means killing his own allies. After all, he's evil, and he knows that some sacrifices must be made. Plus, maybe he thinks it's a little fun. Then, he should be plotting so as to betray the party at the time of maximum gain. And when that happens....

Oh snap.

Jastermereel
2009-12-24, 01:26 AM
It's worth figuring out in advance if the evil PC's motivations and actions, once revealed, will make the rest of the party feel like their efforts have been for nothing. It's frustrating enough when, despite their efforts, the villain 'wins', even if just for a while. Having one of the PCs betray the rest and work against them for a rather long period of time could manifest in some unpleasant ways in player attitudes.

You'll need to work very hard with that player to figure out the timing and the nature of the big reveal so as to not create a lot of hard feelings between players, I expect.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:30 AM
The only way I can possible see this not exploding later and ruining friendships, is if the players are mature enough to be able to play it straight knowing ahead of time that one of them is a traitor. or maybe even which one...

that is, they are mature enough and good enough roleplayers to know tom is the BBEG, and yet they will not let that affect how their characters interact with him until that point in time.

R. Shackleford
2009-12-24, 01:41 AM
I don't see it being doable.

One of the beliefs that I have to cling to in DND is that the party is working together. You can screw with everything in the entire setting, but you can't mess with each other. The first roll a PC makes against another is like breaking Godwin's Law - the entire campaign can go downhill quickly after its revealed.

My advice: tread very carefully.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:48 AM
I don't see it being doable.

One of the beliefs that I have to cling to in DND is that the party is working together. You can screw with everything in the entire setting, but you can't mess with each other. The first roll a PC makes against another is like breaking Godwin's Law - the entire campaign can go downhill quickly after its revealed.

My advice: tread very carefully.

but if everyone knows "tom" is playing the BBEG, the players can work together to make a story together rather then "work together" to slay the party's enemies...

Although, even then it is a really really difficult thing to do properly...

whatever you do, do not do it in secret where just the DM and the character knows, or it will end up very very badly.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-24, 02:05 AM
If you are playing with people who like mechanics and are competitive with each other terms of killing ability (i.e. metagamers) this will literally be impossible. It seems like this is your type of group except for the fact that one of your players was so bold as to ask this of you. Did he want to keep it a secret from the get-go? Or was he willing to let the other players know that he was playing a 'bad-guy'? If the former is true, I suggest strongly against it, as he probably doesn't know what he's doing and just wanted to be above the rest of the players.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:07 AM
If you are playing with people who like mechanics and are competitive with each other terms of killing ability (i.e. metagamers) this will literally be impossible. It seems like this is your type of group except for the fact that one of your players was so bold as to ask this of you. Did he want to keep it a secret from the get-go? Or was he willing to let the other players know that he was playing a 'bad-guy'? If the latter is true, I suggest strongly against it, as he probably doesn't know what he's doing and just wanted to be above the rest of the players.

don't you mean the former?

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-24, 02:39 AM
Bleh, I did. Changing that right now. Thanks for catching that.

Ernir
2009-12-24, 03:29 AM
If your group is already the kind that passes secret notes to the GM and keeps things from one another... it could be awesome. Otherwise, it is only going to be obvious. :smalltongue:

Just make sure you set it up so that when the big reveal comes, it makes the players hell-bent on revenge against the traitor (even if only for a few short rounds before they die :smalltongue:), not feel like they were subjected to a Rocks Fall Everyone Dies just before the climax of the campaign.

R. Shackleford
2009-12-24, 03:51 AM
but if everyone knows "tom" is playing the BBEG, the players can work together to make a story together rather then "work together" to slay the party's enemies...

Although, even then it is a really really difficult thing to do properly...

whatever you do, do not do it in secret where just the DM and the character knows, or it will end up very very badly.

Yeah, it depends on the group dynamic. My group is a group of Magic Players primarily, and I think that comes to the surface more often than not. Rather than try to tell the story, they'll want to beat the DM and the character in question.

And yes... emphasis added as to how my experimentations were preformed and how I learned that lesson.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:16 AM
beat as in "win against" or beat as in "with a stick"

Gralamin
2009-12-24, 05:17 AM
beat as in "win against" or beat as in "with a stick"

Shackleford said magic Players. They'll find a way to do both at the same time.