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Draxar
2009-12-23, 06:17 PM
How much do you think it would cost to put a thin lead lining on the inside of a suit of armour? And would it slow you down appreciable.

For fun, detection avoiding, shenanigans.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-23, 06:19 PM
How much do you think it would cost to put a thin lead lining on the inside of a suit of armour? And would it slow you down appreciable.

For fun, detection avoiding, shenanigans.

It shouldn't slow you down... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-23, 06:23 PM
Wouldn't you have to fully encase yourself to completely hide your divinatory-related signature/aura?

erikun
2009-12-23, 06:24 PM
Wouldn't you have to fully encase yourself to completely hide your divinatory-related signature/aura?
Yes, you would, at it still wouldn't block detecting magic on the armor itself (or anything carried).

[EDIT] It also only blocks those cone-emanation divinations, at that. A lead helmet is not a Mind Blank spell. (Unless your DM houserules that it is.)

barteem
2009-12-23, 06:34 PM
Seems awful meta-gamey to me, but if the DM allows it, you could probably figure out the mathematics of it pretty easily.
Not that I have math skills.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-23, 06:43 PM
Seems awful meta-gamey to me

How is this even vaguely meta-gamey? The only reason this would work is in-universe justification. OOC, by RAW, this is impossible. IC, lead's ability to block divinations would be explored further.

awa
2009-12-23, 06:43 PM
First i think it would be entirely impractical becuase armor needs openings to function like for you to breath out of or see through.

Ninja
That said i don't consider it meta gaming if your charecter in game has a desire to hide from scrying and knows lead blocks scrying it is a logical assumption that some one will try something like this i just don't think it will work.

taltamir
2009-12-23, 06:49 PM
How is this even vaguely meta-gamey? The only reason this would work is in-universe justification. OOC, by RAW, this is impossible. IC, lead's ability to block divinations would be explored further.

yes, it is a well known in character fact that many spells are blocked by lead...
it will, however, be a problem because you need holes to see through and breath through...

just get a magic item that provides non detections (they exist)

Demented
2009-12-23, 07:05 PM
What if your character is made of lead?

taltamir
2009-12-23, 07:07 PM
What if your character is made of lead?

then you are either a construct, or a living construct.
The first is immune to enchantment, and auto fails all saves against illusion.
The second is affected normally by both enchantment and illusion.

Fhaolan
2009-12-23, 07:08 PM
What if your character is made of lead?

....

....

You know, I hadn't even considered that one. That's interesting, and I think technically possible with warforged and other golem-types.

Squark
2009-12-23, 07:09 PM
Then you have bigger problems. Lead's pretty soft, with a hardness (That's Moh's Scale of Hardness, not game mechanics) of 1.5. You can scratch it with your fingernail. So a decent sword will cut through you like butter, and your sheer weight will prevent you from dodging blows.


So no, leaden warforged are a bad idea.

madtinker
2009-12-23, 07:14 PM
yes, it is a well known in character fact that many spells are blocked by lead...
it will, however, be a problem because you need holes to see through and breath through...

just get a magic item that provides non detections (they exist)

Depending on the wavelength of the magic, it could still be blocked with the small holes. That's how a microwave works without killing us.

taltamir
2009-12-23, 07:15 PM
plus, the spell is actually hitting your body... the lead sheet trick is that the lead blocks the spell before it reaches you. If you are made out of lead, then the spell is reaching your body, thus I would say it works :P

Squark
2009-12-23, 07:20 PM
Err... I think it'd have to be a pretty big wave length to have meaningful ventilation and air holes... A quick wiki check says that the wave length of a microwave is about a millimeter. A bit more research indicates that a radio wave (some of which can have wave lengths of a meter) might work, but considering Magic is generally longer ranged than a radio wave, I'd say Lead Lined armor is probably not practical.

madtinker
2009-12-23, 07:25 PM
But radio waves travel across the solar system and we still get high-res photos, so that's pretty long range. Unless magic doesn't travel at the speed of light, then physics might not apply.

Draxar
2009-12-23, 07:36 PM
The joy of added context – the armour would be encasing undead, doing so completely, with no air holes, to give them the appearance of in fact being constructs.

Squark
2009-12-23, 07:43 PM
But radio waves travel across the solar system and we still get high-res photos, so that's pretty long range. Unless magic doesn't travel at the speed of light, then physics might not apply.

Depending on your interpretation of how the planes work, Magic seems to be able to transcend reality, so it probably isn't radiation in the traditional sense.

awa
2009-12-23, 07:45 PM
still cant see
and the joints are going to be iffy theirs not a lot of room in their for extraneous metal

SurlySeraph
2009-12-23, 07:46 PM
The joy of added context – the armour would be encasing undead, doing so completely, with no air holes, to give them the appearance of in fact being constructs.

Then they don't need air, so there's no problem in completely encasing them with lead, so it should be entirely doable. As for stats, I'm going to say -1 to the armor penalty and add 5 pounds to the weight just to keep things simple.

Arbitrarious
2009-12-23, 08:00 PM
Bottle of air for breathing? Invisibility on a strip of it for sight? As for hardness their our a few spells that can increase an items hardness. More fun, what about lead that's been hardened and turned to cloth via shrink item? What could you do with that. So long as the frame you put it over can support it's weight in normal form (adamantinium strips?) and the path of least resistance is expanding outward, a dispel magic that kills the shrink item would only cause the lead to explode outward possibly hurting those nearby but leaving you safe if immobile.

Draxar
2009-12-23, 08:36 PM
Then they don't need air, so there's no problem in completely encasing them with lead, so it should be entirely doable. As for stats, I'm going to say -1 to the armor penalty and add 5 pounds to the weight just to keep things simple.

Sounds about right. The armour is magically bonded to them, so that should solve any flexibility issues.

Demons_eye
2009-12-23, 09:15 PM
The joy of added context – the armour would be encasing undead, doing so completely, with no air holes, to give them the appearance of in fact being constructs.

Border line golem at that point.

fusilier
2009-12-23, 09:22 PM
Well, I'm not going to speculate on D&D physics, but returning to the original question:

I believe lead can be made into foil, like aluminum foil, and was used to make air-tight seals on shipping crates. So if all you need is any amount of lead shielding it can probably be added with negligible weight.

Draxar
2009-12-23, 10:04 PM
Border line golem at that point.

Perhaps, but easier and cheaper to create – all I need is the Black Opals (assuming I don't bypass them with Pale Master or somesuch), and the armour, and four corpsecrafting feats

Corpsecrafting + any two other Corpsecrafting based feats are the prerequisites for a custom feat which melds and armour or weapons on a corpse when it is raised into the resulting undead. The benefit being that they count as having proficiency with those things melded to them.


Well, I'm not going to speculate on D&D physics, but returning to the original question:

I believe lead can be made into foil, like aluminum foil, and was used to make air-tight seals on shipping crates. So if all you need is any amount of lead shielding it can probably be added with negligible weight.

Jolly good. TBH, I'm not too worried if it does give minor penalties, as I don't need the things to be tap-dancing. I just wanted to get range of opinions on what penalties and effects there might be.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-23, 10:30 PM
As to those saying the armor must be completely sealed to function? D&D has these nifty rules about line of effect, which include the rather useful bit of:

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect. (specific text from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect), emphasis added)

Which, you know, means that if the gap is less than one square foot, it still counts as a solid barrier as far as magic is concerned - so breathing holes and eye slits are not a problem (other than Fireball's exception, shared by inheritance with Delayed Blast Fireball and possibly a few others). This is why you put arrow slits in castle walls - if they are two inches wide, they don't pass spells... but they still pass outbound arrows pretty easily.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:20 AM
who says magic is made of waves? magic has an area of effect, in this case a cone... why is it not infinitely divisible cone of infinite perfect straight lines?

UserClone
2009-12-24, 02:02 AM
Good show, Jak_Simth! :smallbiggrin:

I'm totally getting lead-lined armor for my characters now!

Draxar
2009-12-24, 08:25 AM
Good show, Jak_Simth! :smallbiggrin:

I'm totally getting lead-lined armor for my characters now!

Especially given that this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) is in fact, innacurate on how detect evil would work – there'd be no difference from the absence of evil (or specific evil aura on the second turn) and 'no reading' from being blocked by lead.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 08:34 AM
who says magic is made of waves? magic has an area of effect, in this case a cone... why is it not infinitely divisible cone of infinite perfect straight lines?

Because a gap less than one foot across blocks line of effect - so magic obviously has a wavelength of one foot.

Which is huge.

appending_doom
2009-12-24, 09:42 AM
I recall there being something in Dragon Magazine about lead-lined armor providing bonuses to saves against divinations, rather than blocking the lead-blocked ones.

But your idea's good, too.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-24, 09:47 AM
It wasn't very rigorous lead lining. They just took 5 pounds of lead and put it in random places for a meager +1 to save v. divination and enchantment.

UserClone
2009-12-24, 10:41 AM
Actually, that would be its amplitude, not its wavelength. Wavelength=lateral distance from any part of a wave to the same point on the next wave, whereas amplitude=vertical distance from the crest of one wave to the trough of the next.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 10:43 AM
Actually, that would be its amplitude, not its wavelength. Wavelength=lateral distance from any part of a wave to the same point on the next wave, whereas amplitude=vertical distance from the crest of one wave to the trough of the next.

...Shush, you.

ericgrau
2009-12-24, 11:17 AM
It's an emanation not a spread, so cut the wavelength shenanigans. :smalltongue:

There was a recent similar thread. The cost is negligible both for materials and labor. I'd ad hoc 100 gp or less. You will not get significantly poisoned through the skin for years; historically this took years of eating. Fully encasing yourself sounds difficult, if not impossible. I'd say you'd have to be facing the other direction, have a weak aura and even then I may give it a 50:50 chance, if not automatic detection but with an aura 1 step weaker.

Draxar
2009-12-24, 12:31 PM
It's an emanation not a spread, so cut the wavelength shenanigans. :smalltongue:

There was a recent similar thread. The cost is negligible both for materials and labor. I'd ad hoc 100 gp or less. You will not get significantly poisoned through the skin for years; historically this took years of eating. Fully encasing yourself sounds difficult, if not impossible. I'd say you'd have to be facing the other direction, have a weak aura and even then I may give it a 50:50 chance, if not automatic detection but with an aura 1 step weaker.

Unless you're undead. At which point, full encasing is reasonably practical.

ericgrau
2009-12-24, 12:38 PM
As long as you overcome the visibility factor. Then I'd add a bit of cost for flexible joints made of woven threads. Foil will break if you flex it too many times. Your armor is still detectable as mentioned, unless you make everything on the outside, in which case the first stab to a joint will tear a hole in the soft metal. The lead over solid armor may survive a blow if the armor does, but then that would be a miss due to armor AC since you weren't hurt either. Hmm... get the party wizard a wand of mending. Use it once per hit that lands on you.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-24, 12:42 PM
I'm assuming you are the wizard, with a dip in Mindbender to solve the visibility problem.

Draxar
2009-12-24, 01:04 PM
The concept is a necromancer who wanders around with his 'constructs' which are in fact, undead encased in armour. Thus allowing him to mix with ordinary society. He's not in the armour, they are.

ericgrau
2009-12-24, 01:16 PM
Wand of misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm). Or some 2nd level pearls of power.

icefractal
2009-12-24, 01:18 PM
Edit: Mistaken about a particular spell, post was pointless.

UserClone
2009-12-24, 03:07 PM
As Jack_Simth pointed out, completely encasing yourself is entirely unnecessary, all that's required is a thin sheet of lead coating the inside of your armor, if it's fullplate. None of the joints, eyeslits, etc. are enough to provide line of effect, so therefore you give off no aura of any alignment. In fact, undead in lead-lined armor would not be detected as undead. This gives me an idea...:smallamused:

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 03:24 PM
Just be an Incarnate. One of their soulmelds provides protection from Divination spells of any kind, forcing an SR check even if the spell doesn't normally go through SR. Then there's the Spellward Shirt, which gives blanket immunity to 4 spells of 6th level or lower every time you bind it.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:25 PM
Just be an Incarnate. One of their soulmelds provides protection from Divination spells of any kind, forcing an SR check even if the spell doesn't normally go through SR. Then there's the Spellward Shirt, which gives blanket immunity to 4 spells of 6th level or lower every time you bind it.

Great for a PC - terrible for a necromancer who wants to ward his undead servants.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 03:31 PM
Great for a PC - terrible for a necromancer who wants to ward his undead servants.

Ah, missed that part.

Otodetu
2009-12-24, 07:16 PM
The benefit being that they count as having proficiency with those things melded to them.


Just to clear it up, undead are supposed to keep their proficiencies after being raised, look at the human skeleton in the srd.

Then again your feat allows you to outfit the owlbear skeleton with full plate armour i guess

taltamir
2009-12-24, 07:53 PM
you can wear armor without being proficient.


A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields

so breastplate will give +5AC, -4 to skills (they are skeletons) and -4 to hit.

Draxar
2009-12-26, 01:53 PM
Just to clear it up, undead are supposed to keep their proficiencies after being raised, look at the human skeleton in the srd.

Then again your feat allows you to outfit the owlbear skeleton with full plate armour i guess

The issue is that it's not particularly clear exactly what you do and don't get.

Also, I have the plan for a battle-cat-esque Dire Lion encased in armour that I ride around.

And finally, the melding effect will help with the claims of 'its a construct'.

Slayn82
2009-12-29, 08:17 AM
Well, there is in 3.0 the Full Armor, a Beast that gave +10 Armor Bonus to AC and a -8 Penalty, and makes you look almost like an Iron Golem. Cant remember wich book it was from.
In the Arms and Equipment Guide, there is Heavy Armor: Dwarven Stone Armor, for +9AC, +0Dex, -7Armor Check, 40% Spellcasting failure, 80lbs.

Those Two will be probably the ones to allow the best Concealment for your minions.

kc0bbq
2009-12-29, 01:46 PM
Yeah, but doesn't Fireball, by RAW, melt soft metals like lead and gold? "Excuse me, I need to learn your alignment/whatever. Stand still a moment, I'm just going to bathe you in fire. It won't hurt, really, it's a direct damage spell and we all know how useless they are. Oh, sorry, does the molten lead hurt? Ahh, you're chaotic evil."

A purpose for blaster mages. Every divination caster would have one handy.

ericgrau
2009-12-29, 01:51 PM
Methinks these boards vastly underestimates damage in their snidey remarks. They're undead mooks. A fireball wipes out the whole lot of them.

JeenLeen
2009-12-29, 01:56 PM
Complete Scroundel has some stuff about lead lining for items (to hide stolen or smuggled goods) and (to a lesser degree) clothes to stop some detections. It's not much weight or cost. I forget the exact rulings, but that could be a good basis for making a suit.

Trixie
2009-12-29, 06:44 PM
As long as you overcome the visibility factor.

Crystal glass, which is very durable and completely transparent is actually made (partly) out lead. A visor one centimeter thick would be completely impervious to stabs :smalltongue:


Then I'd add a bit of cost for flexible joints made of woven threads.

Overlapping plates. It doesn't need to be hermetic, it just needs to block line of sight.

Also, to prevent lead poisoning, I propose to cover the inside of armor with mercury - it forms nice amalgam with that :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-12-29, 06:46 PM
Yeah, but doesn't Fireball, by RAW, melt soft metals like lead and gold? "Excuse me, I need to learn your alignment/whatever. Stand still a moment, I'm just going to bathe you in fire. It won't hurt, really, it's a direct damage spell and we all know how useless they are. Oh, sorry, does the molten lead hurt? Ahh, you're chaotic evil."

A purpose for blaster mages. Every divination caster would have one handy.

useless against level appropriate opponent... they are very effective against low level NPCs.
but funny :)

UserClone
2009-12-29, 06:51 PM
Crystal glass, which is very durable and completely transparent is actually made (partly) out lead. A visor one centimeter thick would be completely impervious to stabs :smalltongue:



Overlapping plates. It doesn't need to be hermetic, it just needs to block line of sight.

Also, to prevent lead poisoning, I propose to cover the inside of armor with mercury - it forms nice amalgam with that :smalltongue:

Again, the plates don't need to be overlapping or block line of sight; as long as they block line of effect the spell can't get a reading, so a gap of up to one foot square is permissible.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-29, 06:58 PM
Because a gap less than one foot across blocks line of effect - so magic obviously has a wavelength of one foot.

Which is huge.

Amusing bit?

Nothing requires the gap be contiguous. Those 1/2-inch square gaps in the barred version of Forcecage pass line of effect (because there's a lot of them).

So it's not exactly a wavelength...

UserClone
2009-12-29, 07:37 PM
Where the hell did that interpretation come from? "A" gap is "a" gap, not "gaps totaling at least x amount"...:smallconfused:

taltamir
2009-12-29, 09:07 PM
Amusing bit?

Nothing requires the gap be contiguous. Those 1/2-inch square gaps in the barred version of Forcecage pass line of effect (because there's a lot of them).

So it's not exactly a wavelength...

it could also be because the assumption that a "human" cannot aim through such a small gap... not that the magic "waves" cannot pass through it