Will Paranoia Destroy ya? (A Girard Thread)

[DBJack]

So far, each of the gates has been destroyed by the gate's main defence.

Soon believed in the honor of the SG. A crazy paladin destroyed the gate. Dorukon believed in arcane supremecy. His rune systems destoryed the gate.

SODLirian's Guardian Virus had two flaws that prevented it from doing its job.

This trend can best continue if Girard will be the reason that the next gate will be destroyed. His extreme paranoia, (as the title of the comic (Paranoia Will Destroy Ya) suggests) will be what destroys the gate. For example, the party gets through all of the illusions and fighting with the LG and everything, and they reach the gate with Girard in front of them. Disbelieving them as agents of Soon or evil adventurers or whatever, Girard destroys the gate.

Speculation: I predict Girard destorying the gate out of paranoia then being consumed by the snarl possibly along with the entire party. This begins the next book, which occurs on World 1.0.

[FujinAkari]

Ummm...

Lirean's virus did exactly what it was meant to. Her problem was that her magic wasn't stronger than the Dark One's/

Durokan's Rune System did -precisely- what it was meant to.

Similarly, Soon's gate fell because the Paladins did what they were supposed to. Miko wasn't crazy (well, at least not in that moment), O-Chul had the same idea she did.

So... no... the trend you seek doesn't seem to exist :P

[magic9mushroom]

Paranoid people are harder to kill than regular people. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20051120.html)

That aside, I really doubt there's more than just coincidence there.

From what you've said, Lirian's Gate fell because there was a hole in its defense. This seems fairly obvious. I mean, how else could it fall?

Dorukan's Gate fell because the self-destruct rune was activated. The gate's defenses were impenetrable. Now, if the OotS had just left instead of blowing it up, I find it reasonably likely that Xykon could have put his hands on another good character capable of disarming the trap. So it seems to have done what it was designed to do, close enough.

Soon's Gate, well, yeah.

There seems to be a coincidence between Dorukan's Gate being destroyed by its own sigils and Soon's Gate being destroyed by a paladin. But it's broken by Lirian's Gate. So I doubt there's a pattern.

Guess we'll find out Soon, anyway.

[factotum]

What are these two flaws in the Guardian Virus? I'm guessing you mean the following:

a) Did not affect Redcloak--he's wearing a major artifact created by a God. What makes you think that mortal magic not being able to overcome that is a flaw? That's like saying that Familicide is flawed because it didn't kill Tiamat (she is the Mother of all evil dragons, after all).

b) Did not affect lich Xykon--it's a virus. Viruses affect living things. A lich is not living, ergo, not a flaw in the virus--it could never have affected Xykon once he became a lich. It might be possible to argue that Lirian should have foreseen that, but since she didn't seem to know what a lich was (she tried claw/claw/bite on Xykon despite his massive DR) I think we can maybe forgive her that.

[Porthos]

I agree that there was a ironic hole in the defense for Lirian's Gate. Just not the one you cited. :smallwink:

Lirian's Gate was literally held together by trees. Trees that could walk. Trees that could decide to book it if they got freaked out. Which is what happened when they got set on fire by some person who didn't quite realize why setting a raging fire in a forest wasn't the smartest idea in the world. :smalltongue:

If Lirian had some other way of anchoring the Gate other than using The Power of Nature Ents, then it is possible that the Gate wouldn't have been destroyed.

For the rest tho, I agree. Dorukan's Magics undoubtedly destroyed his Gate, and Miko's concept of Honor (whether it was insane or not is besides the point) is what led her to destroy Soon's Gate.

You might very well be onto something here. It's definetly one of the more original ideas I've heard of when it comes to the meta-plot in regards to the Gate thing.

[Roc Ness]

Maybe Girard's paranoia led him to destroy hit decades ago, and the only reason noone noticed is because he hid that behind an illusion too? :smallconfused:

[TheSummoner]

Eh... I see the pattern, but it would be kinda a crappy twist for him to just destroy it... no battle, nothing, just he destroys it...

Then again, if it went that way, Rich wouldn't be the first webcomic author to pull an anticlimax (http://www.nuklearpower.com).

[Inhuman Bot]

Eh... I see the pattern, but it would be kinda a crappy twist for him to just destroy it... no battle, nothing, just he destroys it...

Then again, if it went that way, Rich wouldn't be the first webcomic author to pull an anticlimax (http://www.nuklearpower.com).

Nor would it be his first.

But if Giriad DID destroy it, then there could be a fight and such; It would just mean they had to go to Sereni/Kraagor's gate.

[ComradeMolokov]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that Girard's gate has a self destruct similar to Durokan's, only instead of being a rune that you activate it's automatically triggered by the presence of LG people, probably accompanied by a recorded message from Girard saying something to the effect of "I don't know how you got Serini to tell you the real coordinates Soon, but I'm not going to let you control my gate."

[TheSummoner]

Jeeze, one trap specifically set for a particular LG enemy and everyone assumes all of his defenses are aimed at the same thing.

[ComradeMolokov]

Jeeze, one trap specifically set for a particular LG enemy and everyone assumes all of his defenses are aimed at the same thing.

He's willing to run the risk of killing innocent people with traps on the off chance that he might get Soon. That means he's pretty dedicated to killing Soon, so he's probably going to be aiming a lot more than just one bomb at Soon. After all, he acknowledged that he could have just killed a servant of Soon rather than Soon himself, meaning he thinks that Soon could survive to continue trying to get the gate. He'll have other defenses aimed at Soon.

On top of that he seems to believe that Soon is the biggest threat to the gates, judging by how nonchalant he was about handing the coordinates over to a halfling rogue to be written down in a freaking diary. In his mind as long as Soon (or someone else who's *gasp* LAWFUL) doesn't know where the gate is, it's alright. Judging from what we know of him so far, it's safe to assume that most of his defenses will be geared toward fending off Soon and his flunkies.

[magic9mushroom]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that Girard's gate has a self destruct similar to Durokan's, only instead of being a rune that you activate it's automatically triggered by the presence of LG people, probably accompanied by a recorded message from Girard saying something to the effect of "I don't know how you got Serini to tell you the real coordinates Soon, but I'm not going to let you control my gate."

I doubt it'd be set to only hit LG. Lawful anything would be more likely, especially since Soon had a lot of lackeys who weren't Good.

[TheSummoner]

He's willing to run the risk of killing innocent people with traps on the off chance that he might get Soon. That means he's pretty dedicated to killing Soon, so he's probably going to be aiming a lot more than just one bomb at Soon. After all, he acknowledged that he could have just killed a servant of Soon rather than Soon himself, meaning he thinks that Soon could survive to continue trying to get the gate. He'll have other defenses aimed at Soon.

And how likely do you really think it is that an innocent person would, in that specific location, say those four terms? Is there a chance? Yes, but its minimal. If someone with bad intentions (Soon or otherwise) gets their hands on the gate, everyone dies. A small chance that one or two innocent people die is worth the risk if its to protect the world as a whole.

That Girard would prepare his defenses for Soon and only Soon would require him to be an idiot of unimaginable scale. I'm not ready to admit that about a guy who hasn't even appeared in person yet. It was one trap, you cannot make assumptions about his defenses as a whole based on that.


On top of that he seems to believe that Soon is the biggest threat to the gates, judging by how nonchalant he was about handing the coordinates over to a halfling rogue to be written down in a freaking diary. In his mind as long as Soon (or *gasp* someone else who's LAWFUL) doesn't know where the gate is, it's alright. Judging from what we know of him so far, it's safe to assume that most of his defenses will be geared to fend off Soon and his flunkies.

Its quite likely Girard didn't know Serini kept a diary, or that she would be stupid enough to record the locations of the gates in it even if he was aware. Its obvious that he trusted her more than Soon. Yeah, it was pretty stupid for him to tell whoever triggered his message that she knew the location of it.

What we know of him so far... Yeah, that and a quarter can get you a gumball. We know of one specific defense, which would likely only be triggered if Soon broke his oath or if someone got the information from Soon. We know he took precautions against Soon. That does not mean it is the only thing he took precautions against or that it was the thing he prepared most thoroughly for.

It would be like seeing a bird for the first time... that particular bird happens to be red so you assume ALL birds are red.

[ComradeMolokov]

And how likely do you really think it is that an innocent person would, in that specific location, say those four terms? Is there a chance? Yes, but its minimal. If someone with bad intentions (Soon or otherwise) gets their hands on the gate, everyone dies. A small chance that one or two innocent people die is worth the risk if its to protect the world as a whole.

But this is not about "getting their hands on the gate" as for now the gate does not appear to be there. This is about killing the person who showed up at that location just because they were there. And Girard himself admits that the possibility of killing someone entirely unaffiliated with Soon exists, but put a bomb there anyway in hopes of killing Soon (and yes, he specifically states the bomb is for Soon, to rectify the fact that previously he had lived while Kraagor had died). So no, it's not a "innocent person may die, but otherwise everyone may die" sort of choice, because the gate is not there. The choice is "Soon may die, someone affiliated with him may die, or an innocent person may die." And with those options in mind Girard went ahead and put a bomb there anyway.


That Girard would prepare his defenses for Soon and only Soon would require him to be an idiot of unimaginable scale. I'm not ready to admit that about a guy who hasn't even appeared in person yet. It was one trap, you cannot make assumptions about his defenses as a whole based on that.

And you barely got a paragraph in before resorting to a strawman. I never said ONLY Soon. Congratulations, you've torn down your strawman, now can we actually have a discussion without resorting to logical fallacies?

My point is that if he is willing to run the risk of kill innocent people, which Girard himself admits is a possibility, then that means he really wants to see Soon and those who serve him dead. That means he will likely have MORE defenses geared against Soon, because as I explained already he does admit that he might not be killing Soon himself with that one bomb. I never said ALL of them would be, just that there will be some more in addition to the one we have already seen.


Its quite likely Girard didn't know Serini kept a diary, or that she would be stupid enough to record the locations of the gates in it even if he was aware. Its obvious that he trusted her more than Soon. Yeah, it was pretty stupid for him to tell whoever triggered his message that she knew the location of it.

Alright, it's becoming increasingly obvious that you haven't even read the comic. Girard specifically says that Serini had the real location. You get that? He did know that she recorded the location. And you miss the point entirely. The fact that he trusted her more than Soon WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ARGUING IN THE FIRST PLACE. He believed that Soon was the greater threat, which is why I am arguing that he will have more than just one defense aimed at Soon and co.


What we know of him so far... Yeah, that and a quarter can get you a gumball. We know of one specific defense, which would likely only be triggered if Soon broke his oath or if someone got the information from Soon. We know he took precautions against Soon. That does not mean it is the only thing he took precautions against or that it was the thing he prepared most thoroughly for.

And again with your claim that I said that it was the only thing he took precautions against. Have you some sort of reading comprehension issue? Some sort of learning disability? Because if you actually look at what I said you will never find me saying that it was the ONLY thing he built defenses against, just that he likely has MORE THAN JUST ONE SUCH DEFENSE.

As for prepared most thoroughly for, actually yes, given the gaping hole in his defense in the form of a halfling out in the world with the accurate location it is safe to assume he was not AS concerned about the gate's location being compromised by the other members as he was about Soon coming calling. I stress "AS" because I know that otherwise you will launch off on a rant accusing me of claiming that he wasn't concerned about it at all.

His defenses will tilt toward fending off an attack by Soon, as his actions have demonstrated that he thought Soon was the greater threat.


It would be like seeing a bird for the first time... that particular bird happens to be red so you assume ALL birds are red.

Your analogy is horribly flawed, but given the quality of the rest of your reasoning I probably shouldn't be surprised. It's like seeing a red bird and then assuming that there are likely SOME other birds that are also red.

[TheSummoner]

But this is not about "getting their hands on the gate" as for now the gate does not appear to be there. This is about killing the person who showed up at that location just because they were there. And Girard himself admits that the possibility of killing someone entirely unaffiliated with Soon exists, but put a bomb there anyway in hopes of killing Soon (and yes, he specifically states the bomb is for Soon, to rectify the fact that previously he had lived while Kraagor had died). So no, it's not a "innocent person may die, but otherwise everyone may die" sort of choice, because the gate is not there. The choice is "Soon may die, someone affiliated with him may die, or an innocent person may die." And with those options in mind Girard went ahead and put a bomb there anyway.

For someone to be there in that specific spot and say those phrases, the chance of them having any reason that doesn't involve the gate is minimal. It is about the gate because hes misdirecting anyone who might be after the gate.

Someone unaffiliated with Soon does not mean someone who is not a threat to the gate. What if someone had captured Soon and gotten the information from him... Even if Soon wouldn't tell willingly, Psionics exist in this world afterall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). The options are Soon may die, someone affiliated with Soon may die, some evil person who managed to extract the information from Soon may die, and a very small chance that someone will randomly turn up in that exact spot in the vast featureless wasteland and say those specific four phrases to trigger the illusion.


And you barely got a paragraph in before resorting to a strawman. I never said ONLY Soon. Congratulations, you've torn down your strawman, now can we actually have a discussion without resorting to logical fallacies?

Its a logical fallacy that I'm not yet ready to believe a guy we've barely seen is that stupid?


My point is that if he is willing to run the risk of kill innocent people, which Girard himself admits is a possibility, then that means he really wants to see Soon and those who serve him dead. That means he will likely have MORE defenses geared against Soon, because as I explained already he does admit that he might not be killing Soon himself with that one bomb. I never said ALL of them would be, just that there will be some more in addition to the one we have already seen.

Girard considers Soon a threat to the gate. A threat to the gate is a threat to the world as a whole. The notion that some random innocent person would be wandering the desert, stumble across that specific spot and say those four phrases without having any connection to Soon or the gates at all is laughable. Sure, its possible, but that doesn't make it likely enough to be a real issue.

One trap specifically set for Soon. One trap that would very likely only be triggered by Soon, on Soon's orders, or by someone who got the information from Soon somehow. He sets one trap specifically for Soon and you assume automatically that he needs more. A trap that would be triggered by Xykon or Redcloak or Baron Pineapple would also be triggered by Soon, why should he weaken his defenses as a whole by setting a number of them to specifically be effective against Soon? Hell, if he was confident enough that the first bomb would do the trick, why would he even need more than one?


Alright, it's becoming increasingly obvious that you haven't even read the comic. Girard specifically says that Serini had the real location. You get that? He did know that she recorded the location. And you miss the point entirely. The fact that he trusted her more than Soon WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ARGUING IN THE FIRST PLACE. He believed that Soon was the greater threat, which is why I am arguing that he will have more than just one defense aimed at Soon and co.

Yes, Girard says Serini has the real location. Wheres the evidence that he knew she kept a diary? What about proof that he knew she would write down the location of the gate?


And again with your claim that I said that it was the only thing he took precautions against. Have you some sort of reading comprehension issue? Some sort of learning disability? Because if you actually look at what I said you will never find me saying that it was the ONLY thing he built defenses against, just that he likely has MORE THAN JUST ONE SUCH DEFENSE.

Are you incapable of making a point without your arguements being ad hominem?


As for prepared most thoroughly for, actually yes, given the gaping hole in his defense in the form of a halfling out in the world with the accurate location it is safe to assume he was not AS concerned about the gate's location being compromised by the other members as he was about Soon coming calling. I stress "AS" because I know that otherwise you will launch off on a rant accusing me of claiming that he wasn't concerned about it at all.

His defenses will tilt toward fending off an attack by Soon, as his actions have demonstrated that he thought Soon was the greater threat.

His defenses will take into consideration the possibility of Soon attacking. His actions have demonstrated that he thought Soon was a threat. We've seen one trap, one such defense designed for Soon. There could be 7 more traps like that, there could be 10,000 more like that, there might be no other traps like that one. Its too early to make assumptions about a guy who hasn't even appeared in person yet.

[gamephil]

So... no... the trend you seek doesn't seem to exist :P

How so? Each one was destroyed by implements that the guardian set up, regardless of whether or not those implements did as intended.

[ComradeMolokov]

For someone to be there in that specific spot and say those phrases, the chance of them having any reason that doesn't involve the gate is minimal. It is about the gate because hes misdirecting anyone who might be after the gate.

Someone unaffiliated with Soon does not mean someone who is not a threat to the gate. What if someone had captured Soon and gotten the information from him... Even if Soon wouldn't tell willingly, Psionics exist in this world afterall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). The options are Soon may die, someone affiliated with Soon may die, some evil person who managed to extract the information from Soon may die, and a very small chance that someone will randomly turn up in that exact spot in the vast featureless wasteland and say those specific four phrases to trigger the illusion.

I never said a "random" person. Just an innocent person. As in someone who does not deserve to die simply for showing up at that particular spot. You seem unable to understand that "looking for the gates" and "innocent" are not actually mutually exclusive. The possibility exists that those who show up looking in that spot might not have malicious intentions. And the bomb would kill them anyway.

It is a possibility that exists, and Girard was willing to go ahead and put the bomb there anyway because he wanted to kill Soon. That he was willing to do that despite the risk tells us many things about his character. It also means one of two things, either it means he hated Soon enough to risk killing innocent people in which case he was dedicated enough for us to reasonably expect more such traps, or he hated Soon so much that it blinded him to the possibility that he might end up killing someone who didn't deserve to die, in which case we can again reasonably expect more traps directed at Soon.


Its a logical fallacy that I'm not yet ready to believe a guy we've barely seen is that stupid?

No, but mischaracterizing my argument is.


Girard considers Soon a threat to the gate. A threat to the gate is a threat to the world as a whole. The notion that some random innocent person would be wandering the desert, stumble across that specific spot and say those four phrases without having any connection to Soon or the gates at all is laughable. Sure, its possible, but that doesn't make it likely enough to be a real issue.

Again with the "random person" line. You seem to love that one.

I never said "random." I said "innocent." As in someone not deserving of death. I nor did I ever say "had no connection to the gates." Yes, it would be a laughable thing, the only problem is that it's yet another strawman that you made up.


One trap specifically set for Soon. One trap that would very likely only be triggered by Soon, on Soon's orders, or by someone who got the information from Soon somehow. He sets one trap specifically for Soon and you assume automatically that he needs more. A trap that would be triggered by Xykon or Redcloak or Baron Pineapple would also be triggered by Soon, why should he weaken his defenses as a whole by setting a number of them to specifically be effective against Soon? Hell, if he was confident enough that the first bomb would do the trick, why would he even need more than one?

Specialization. Higher end traps often times require them. A trap specialized to work on bears may be ineffective against rabbits, but it will be more effective against a bear than a more generalized trap. So, if one is expecting bears, it is reasonable to assume that some of their traps will reflect that. The one that we've already seen was moderately specialized, and thus had a somewhat better chance (albeit still only a chance, as I have already mentioned) of getting its intended target than if it was on a simple proximity trigger. The other members of the order had the time to construct all manner of elaborate defenses. Durokan built a freaking dungeon crawl around his gate. Girard likely had quite a bit of time to layer illusion after trap after illusion, some of which will be more generalized in order to deal with the unknown, while others specialized toward a single target groups. My point is that we will probably see more of the ones specialized against Soon, as Girard both hated him and considered him to be a sizable threat.


Yes, Girard says Serini has the real location. Wheres the evidence that he knew she kept a diary? What about proof that he knew she would write down the location of the gate?

Whether he knew that it was specifically in a dairy or not is ultimately inconsequential. The point is that he knew there was a halfling out in the world with the accurate coordinates recorded in some manner and yet did not see it as the horrifically bad idea that it was. It could have been written on a note, or some other book, but the point is that she had the coordinates and Girard knew it yet thought that to be fine. This means that he did not consider her having the coordinates to be as much of a risk as Soon having them. When combined with his belief that Soon will seek to control his gate it gives us sufficient evidence to reasonable conclude that Girard will have more defenses tilted toward dealing with Soon.


Are you incapable of making a point without your arguements being ad hominem?

No, it's just a way of expressing my anger at the fact that you seem incapable of actually responding to my arguments and instead insist on constructing strawmen of your own to then knock down. My points are capable of standing without them. Yours, on the other hand, are fallacious at their core, as they are not even directed at my points but rather at ones you have built yourself.


His defenses will take into consideration the possibility of Soon attacking. His actions have demonstrated that he thought Soon was a threat. We've seen one trap, one such defense designed for Soon. There could be 7 more traps like that, there could be 10,000 more like that, there might be no other traps like that one. Its too early to make assumptions about a guy who hasn't even appeared in person yet.

And in all likelihood he won't appear in person at all. Does that mean we can never try to guess what he has planned?

You argue that it's too early. I say no, though we have only seen a small amount of Girard, what we have seen of him was very densely packed in terms of information. It has given us an insight into his character, relationships, and actions. While yes, we are still limited in the number of conclusions we can draw, there is enough evidence on the table to make certain statements. The fact that Girard was willing to let Serini have the real coordinates and then not only give Soon false ones but lay a trap for him there as well tells us a great deal about his priorities. It means that he did not consider the gate's location being compromised by Serini to be as much of a threat as by Soon. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that since he considered Soon to be the more likely threat to the gate that he will have more defenses aimed at Soon. The position that he will not is simply untenable in the face of what we know, even as limited as it is.

[Kelvin360]

I think we are all forgetting something.

OoTS #276, panel 2.

If Serini planned to be a paladin, even if she intended it as a joke (which i think unlikely) she would have to be lawful good. Which means that the chances of Girards trap(s) being alignment based are quite low, as he would never want to harm Serini in any way, and also there is a chance that she actually DID take a level or two in paladin (ive done the same with my rogues for the fear immune, and yes i am cheap), so im guessing that the spell is set to affect humans except for Girard himself.

If anyone has any eveidence to the contrary please correct me.

[ComradeMolokov]

I think we are all forgetting something.

OoTS #276, panel 2.

If Serini planned to be a paladin, even if she intended it as a joke (which i think unlikely) she would have to be lawful good. Which means that the chances of Girards trap(s) being alignment based are quite low, as he would never want to harm Serini in any way, and also there is a chance that she actually DID take a level or two in paladin (ive done the same with my rogues for the fear immune, and yes i am cheap), so im guessing that the spell is set to affect humans except for Girard himself.

If anyone has any eveidence to the contrary please correct me.

Kraagor's response was "I don't know if you're the paladin type" and Girard's was "will we have to implant the stick up you ass, or will it grow there when you take the level?" To these, Serini said "well, I've got the charisma for it."

From these statements we can piece together that she was probably not LG. If she was, then she wouldn't just have the charisma for it, she would have the alignment as well and her statement of "I've got the charisma for it" would be a bit odd, as she would be missing the most important part of being a paladin. She defended her suggestion about becoming a paladin with a statement about her stats instead of her alignment when in reality the latter is the more important of the two, meaning that it is likely she only had the stats and not the alignment. If she were LG, she would have said so.

Also, Girard's response indicates that he thought she didn't have a stick up her ass already. However, judging by Girard's attitude toward the lawful alignments, if Serini had already been lawful of any stripe then the two of them would not have gotten along well enough for Girard to think that she didn't have a stick up her ass.

Then there is the issue of the oath. Serini had broken it, and that is a violation of the paladin code. Not only that, she had broken it to do something as trivial as make a bet.

So no, Serini is probably not even lawful, and certainly not a paladin. Girard could make traps for LG people without having to worry about her.

If I had to wager a guess I'd say she was CG.

[Harr]

So far, each of the gates has been destroyed by the gate's main defence.

Soon believed in the honor of the SG. A crazy paladin destroyed the gate. Dorukon believed in arcane supremecy. His rune systems destoryed the gate.


The plan has included destroying the gates as a last resort, if it looks like they're going to fall into evil hands, from the very beginning. That's the plan.

So why is it so surprising that their defenders left ways to destroy them on purpose if that should ever happen. And, you know, of course they're going to use their respective specialties to do it. Why wouldn't they?


How so? Each one was destroyed by implements that the guardian set up, regardless of whether or not those implements did as intended.

His point is that there's nothing surprising about the gates being destroyed by their own defenses, because destroying the gate as a last resort is what they were built to do in the first place. There's nothing ironic or fateful about that. That's just what the creators of said defenses meant to happen.

That on one gate it happened by accident, and on another one it happened prematurely, is just unfortunate... but it's not like "Oh no, he very magic/honor he used to protect the gate ended up destroying it as well! How tragic!" or anything like that... more like, "He tried to defend it but in the end it had to be destroyed, oh well".

Similarly, Girard's gate will end up destroyed as well, likely with some mechanism he put there himself, if it looks like Xykon is about to seize control of it, or if its destruction mechanism gets triggered for whatever reason. But not because of some ironic twist of fate, but because that's what's it's supposed to do.

[B. Dandelion]

From these statements we can piece together that she was probably not LG. If she was, then she wouldn't just have the charisma for it, she would have the alignment as well and her statement of "I've got the charisma for it" would be a bit odd, as she would be missing the most important part of being a paladin. She defended her suggestion about becoming a paladin with a statement about her stats instead of her alignment when in reality the latter is the more important of the two, meaning that it is likely she only had the stats and not the alignment. If she were LG, she would have said so.

Why? Kraagor didn't say she "wasn't the paladin type" for any specific reason. I don't know what the paladin "type" is in his estimation, or what traits he thinks Serini lacks, but it could have been any number of things besides lawfulness. I'm not sure what Serini was about either -- her retort has always kind of baffled me, but if she was attempting to directly rebut him I'd have to assume that she thinks he's talking about a dearth of social skills or something. Dorukan would apparently agree, as he's pretty plainly taking a jab at her for being an annoying chatterbox.

[Kish]

I don't think we should draw too many inferences about that exchange, in the absence of any way to hear tone of voice. Personally, I thought it looked like Serini considered herself to be joking around with her friends, which (and, note, I'm not claiming there's any more support for that than her being in deadly earnest) would indicate nothing about her alignment (but would indicate she didn't hate Soon at the time).

[Porthos]

I'm not sure what Serini was about either -- her retort has always kind of baffled me,

I'm fairly certain that she was referring the 1e/2e idea that for one to be a Paladin one had to have a 17+ CHR.

Among many other entry requirments, of course. But it was the Charisma one that tended to be a real killer.

So she was saying that she had (at least some) of the requirements to be a Paladin.

<possibly opening a can or worms>
Of course since it looks fairly likely that the whole idea of The Past Equals Previous Editions has been nuked, that joke doesn't make quite as much sense as it once might have...

... Unless someone else in the party quipped in a fourth wall breaking sort of way that Paladins in 3e don't need charsima. :smallwink:
</possibly opening a can or worms>

[The_Weirdo]

You're only asking me this because you are out to get me, like everyone else!

*Runs*

[Kish]

I'm fairly certain that she was referring the 1e/2e idea that for one to be a Paladin one had to have a 17+ CHR.

Among many other entry requirments, of course. But it was the Charisma one that tended to be a real killer.

So she was saying that she had (at least some) of the requirements to be a Paladin.
I don't think that works because in 1ed and 2ed, being a halfling would have disqualified her from ever being a paladin, and being a nonhuman who was already an adventurer would have prevented her from being able to change her class.

High Charisma is still useful for paladins. She can have just meant she would have decent-or-better Divine Grace, Smite Evil, and Lay On Hands, if she multiclassed into paladin.

[Porthos]

I don't think that works because in 1ed and 2ed, being a halfling would have disqualified her from ever being a paladin, and being a nonhuman who was already an adventurer would have prevented her from being able to change her class.

Well, yes. And Kraagor couldn't have been a barbarian.

However many many many people House Ruled those restrictions right out the window. At least when it came to what races could be what classes.

It's not Iron Tight (for the reasons you cite), but it's what I thought of when I first read that strip. Probably coz I got introduced to DnD in the 1e/2e days.

[Raw_fishFood]

Is Girard's gate self-destructing because a LG character finds it really something people think is gonna happen?

[Porthos]

Is Girard's gate self-destructing because a LG character finds it really something people think is gonna happen?

Errr, how many people on this thread have suggested that? While it may have been stated elsewhere (I'm now trying to avoid most of the Girard sillyness until we get new info :smallwink:) I'm pretty sure only one poster on this thread has actually proposed that specific idea.

[lio45]

If Serini planned to be a paladin, even if she intended it as a joke (which i think unlikely) she would have to be lawful good. Which means that the chances of Girards trap(s) being alignment based are quite low, as he would never want to harm Serini in any way...

Don't forget something.

Serini has the *right* coordinates for Girard's Gate.

She might not have been given the set of coordinates meant for Soon (why on Earth would Girard bother giving her the exact details of the location of that pointless recorded illusion prepared only for Soon?), and even if she had those 'fake' coordinates, why would Serini EVER travel to "a completely random spot in the middle of the world's largest desert" and talk out loud to herself (or to whoever is with her) about Soon, the Sapphire Guard, the Gate, and Girard while standing on that exact spot???

The chance of this trap harming Serini is so close to zero it can be accurately approximated to exactly zero.

[lio45]

Why? Kraagor didn't say she "wasn't the paladin type" for any specific reason. I don't know what the paladin "type" is in his estimation, or what traits he thinks Serini lacks, but it could have been any number of things besides lawfulness.

IMO the "not the paladin type" comment was, simply and clearly, squarely aimed at the fact that she's a halfling rogue. 'nuff said.

Regardless of any stats, no one can argue that a halfling rogue isn't exactly the typical paladin... so, no conclusions to be drawn from that comment.

[Beorn080]

Was that bomb REALLY intended to kill Soon? I mean, he was an epic level paladin, and the bomb didn't kill a 13ish fighter. I'm pretty sure that if a 13th level fighter didn't die, it wouldn't have phased an epic paladin. Couldn't even have any chaotic or evil modifiers to it, since Roy is LG and would have been hurt the same way too. I think it was more of a "I hate you so much I'm going to set off a small nuke at your location" thing, sort of like V with exploding runes against Miko. "She has d10 health die, she would have lived."

[Shale]

Girard can't do anything to stop the damage dice all coming up 1 because Roy is a main character.

[Vemynal]

in Girard's defense lets look at dorukan's gate:

Dorukan had specifically set up protection so that only someone of a *good* alignment could touch the gate

He also added a rune for the place to self destruct

Seems to me that he was prepared to blow his gate sky high if someone with a good alignment came by trying to take the place over (ie Soon)

so it seems to me at least that Dorukan also distrusted Soon

[Kish]

in Girard's defense lets look at dorukan's gate:

Dorukan had specifically set up protection so that only someone of a *good* alignment could touch the gate

He also added a rune for the place to self destruct

Seems to me that he was prepared to blow his gate sky high if someone with a good alignment came by trying to take the place over (ie Soon)

so it seems to me at least that Dorukan also distrusted Soon
As you note, the defense on the gate itself was one Soon would have been able to bypass. If anything, the suggestion that Girard (assuming he's Chaotic Neutral) would have died trying to get through the ward on Dorukan's Gate--and Soon wouldn't have--suggests something very different.

The fact that Dorukan also put in a non-alignment-specific self-destruct mechanism does substantially less to prove animus directed specifically at Soon than just noting Dorukan's words to Soon in the crayon comics does. It proves that Dorukan didn't have unwavering faith in the idea that no one good would possibly open the gate for a villain, such that the ward on the gate itself was all the protection it would ever need. Considering Elan very nearly opened the gate for Xykon, Dorukan gets the "good at predicting" prize Girard doesn't get.

[derfenrirwolv]

Lirean's virus did exactly what it was meant to. Her problem was that her magic wasn't stronger than the Dark One's/

No. Her problem was that when she had an enemy to all of existance at her mercy, she did the "morally upright" thing and imprisoned them for what was supposed to be life instead of killing them or tossing them into the snarl they were trying to free. If she'd been a little more ruthless when she'd had the chance the world and everyone's souls wouldn't be in jeopardy.