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taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:16 AM
I am starting a new campaign with a new DM. He says cloistered cleric is preferred, but he allows regular cleric too.

Is cloistered cleric actually worth it over a regular cleric? even if I don't intend to gish out, a d8 vs d6, and wearing heavy armor vs light, having weapon proficiency, and having medium bab vs low bab seems a lot better than getting the knowledge domain as a third domain, a few meh spells known, and more skill points per level...

Am I missing something really good about the cloistered variant?

Cleric Variant: Cloistered Cleric
The cloistered cleric spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training. He gives up some of the cleric's combat prowess in exchange for greater skill access and a wider range of spells devoted to knowledge (and the protection of knowledge).

Most cloistered clerics are nonchaotic, since they believe that a disciplined lifestyle lends itself better to learning.

Hit Die
The cloistered cleric uses a d6 for his Hit Die (and has hit points at 1st level equal to 6 + Con modifier).

Base Attack Bonus
The cloistered cleric's lack of martial training means that he uses the poor base attack bonus.

Class Skills
The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

Class Features
The cloistered cleric has all the standard cleric class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Cloistered clerics are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor.

Lore (Ex)
Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells
Most cloistered clerics worship deities associated with knowledge and learning.

In addition to any domains selected from his deity's list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain (even if the Knowledge domain is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Knowledge domain granted power and may select his bonus domain spell from the Knowledge domain or from one of his two regular domains.

Spellcasting
Add the following spells to the cloistered cleric's class spell list: 0—message; 1st—erase, identify, unseen servant; 2nd—fox's cunning; 3rd—illusory script, secret page, tongues (reduced from 4th level); 4th—detect scrying; 6th—analyze dweomer; 7th—sequester; 9th—vision.

noiadodh
2009-12-24, 01:20 AM
one thing is that you dont really lose bab if you want (DMM persist divine power)..

taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:26 AM
one thing is that you dont really lose bab if you want (DMM persist divine power)..

no metamagic reduces of any kind allowed (in or out of core), not even rods of metamatic.

which, I totally agree with my DM on. there should be no metamagic reduces... frankly I think there should be no metamagic, period.

Kylarra
2009-12-24, 01:31 AM
You don't actually lose any weapon proficiencies by being a cloistered cleric.

That said, it really depends on what kind of cleric you want to be.

noiadodh
2009-12-24, 01:34 AM
now im curious.. a cleric without DMM is still tier 1?

Kylarra
2009-12-24, 01:34 AM
now im curious.. a cleric without DMM is still tier 1?Uh, yes. It's still a fullcaster with a crapload of spells...

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 01:48 AM
Uh, Cloistered Cleric is better than normal cleric in nearly every way. The skill points are gold, it's kind of laughable that you consider a cleric's BAB meaningful at all. The heavy armor issue... kind of isn't. If you don't intend to gish, don't worry about your AC, which is an easily obviated defense anyways. Finding miss chances isn't that hard, even without the Sorc/Wiz spell list. The hit die decrease is only 1hp/level, which, to be fair, is practically nothing.

I rather happen to like metamagic.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:54 AM
You don't actually lose any weapon proficiencies by being a cloistered cleric.

That said, it really depends on what kind of cleric you want to be.

you are right, I made a mistake. Clerics do not lose any weapon prof. only medium and heavy armor.

That being said... does it matter what cleric i want to be? I don't subscribe to the stormwind fallacy... so making myself a weaker cleric is not good RP in my book... I can have full plate and still refuse to ever wade into melee...

@aethernox

how would the skill points help me in combat?
how would they help me survive out of combat dangers?
the pertinent ones I'd already be taking...
the big thing for it really is the various knowledge abilities.

1/hp per level will help me survive... is almost an effective +2 to con. (although, no fort bonus, and no benefit in soaking more con damage before dying from 0 con)
Heavy armor vs light armor = +4 to AC, that will help me not die.
the BAB will help me with spells that require a ranged touch attack (or regular, but why would i use those?). BAB makes quite a difference actually on hitting with spells that require a to hit.

Even if I am flying, with concealment, and staying out of melee... I would like to have better armor, HP, and BAB...
especially since all I get for it is more knowledge skills...

You are telling me it is laughable, why is it laughable? what good are those extra skill points?

ps:

Class Skills
The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

The speak language is the best damn feature of the class actually...
it is also completely unacceptable that they lose important skills...

clerics have:

The cleric’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

So, they lose out on the vital concentration and spellcraft... profession and craft are junk. Diplomacy and heal is situational... and a basic cleric already has most interesting knowledge skills. (they only miss dungeoneering)

Kylarra
2009-12-24, 02:01 AM
Those are in addition to the standard cleric skill list, not replacing it.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:04 AM
Those are in addition to the standard cleric skill list, not replacing it.

are you sure? even then... you add decipher script (useless... only a single person playing a rogue-ish campaign needs it.. it will never be used in a group game, because there is always an NPC who is better at it than you), one interesting knowledge skill, and the admittedly good speak language.

Narazil
2009-12-24, 02:15 AM
Cloistered Clerics get an additional Domain (Knowledge), additional spells (0—message; 1st—erase, identify, unseen servant; 2nd—fox's cunning; 3rd—illusory script, secret page, tongues (reduced from 4th level); 4th—detect scrying; 6th—analyze dweomer; 7th—sequester; 9th—vision), Lore ability and skills.

Is the trade worth it from a powergamer's point of view? No. The spells won't help you much in combat, neither will the loss of heavy armor.
But Cloistered Clerics are pretty cool fluff-wise, as they are a lot more priest-y than regular Clerics.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:21 AM
Cloistered Clerics get an additional Domain (Knowledge), additional spells (0—message; 1st—erase, identify, unseen servant; 2nd—fox's cunning; 3rd—illusory script, secret page, tongues (reduced from 4th level); 4th—detect scrying; 6th—analyze dweomer; 7th—sequester; 9th—vision), Lore ability and skills.

Yes, they get those spells, AND they get the spells the knowledge domain provides, so these spells too:

Knowledge Domain Spells
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
Divination M: Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.
Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
Legend Lore M F: Lets you learn tales about a person, place, or thing.
Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.

All of which (those you listed, and those I listed) suck. the knowledge domain is the single worst domain a cleric can have.

Well, true seeing is actually worthwhile, automatically win against illusion... but generally divination is very problematic, either your DM doesn't give you anything for it (cryptic response = waste of spell slot)... or he does and you just ruined the fun by essentially "cheating" (thanks for telling me what to plan for...)


Is the trade worth it from a powergamer's point of view? No. The spells won't help you much in combat, neither will the loss of heavy armor.
But Cloistered Clerics are pretty cool fluff-wise, as they are a lot more priest-y than regular Clerics.

yes, they are much more fluff wise sensible, and I would actually argue that all clerics should be like that, or even go further. However, you are giving up power for "roleplaying"... which is the stormwind fallacy.

I can play a regular cleric who doesn't gish out... Heck even if I play a regular cleric who does not wear any armor at all, claims to not be good with weapons and never uses one, and only casts spells from the back... I have more HP, and I have better bab for those pesky "ranged touch attack" spells.

Besides, you said from an optimizer view cloistered isn't good... some people here disagree with you and tell me regular clerics suck compared to cloistered from an CO view...

PS... I am used to BAB being useful for ranged touch attack from arcane casters... I lack some familiarity with divine casters... how many good divine spells actually have a ranged touch attack?

Narazil
2009-12-24, 02:26 AM
Wait, are you saying Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Foresight suck?
I'm pretty sure there's a couple of Incantrix-Wizards who want to have a word with you. :smallamused:

I think it's a pretty decent trade. No, it won't help you much in combat, but what do you expect from something called a Cloistered Cleric? I mean, Cloisters raise Monks too, right?

I like the variant, and I think it's a fair trade. But then again, I think the Cleric class is trying to fit into to pairs of shoes at once: Being the spellcasting Priest type, and the holy avenger Paladin-isq type at the same time. With Cloistered Cleric, you trade your Paladin-isq for more Priest-y class features.

And, barring Foresight (which usual Clerics can get anyway), Cloistered Clerics are pretty much only weaker than usual Clerics from a optimization point of view. You won't ever need Decipher Script or the Lore feature if your only goal is to min/max.
Sure, BAB isn't a worry (lulz Divine Power), but it sucks to lose your nifty armor.

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 02:27 AM
That being said... does it matter what cleric i want to be? I don't subscribe to the stormwind fallacy... so making myself a weaker cleric is not good RP in my book... I can have full plate and still refuse to ever wade into melee...
It doesn't; I'm not suggesting Cloistered Cleric because it's 'more flavorful' or anything. The Cloistered Cleric variant makes the class legitimately more powerful, and this is the basis behind me defending it.

how would the skill points help me in combat?
Knowledge Devotion, Tumble, Use Magic Device? If you don't understand how skills can be helpful in combat, perhaps you should read the skills section of the PHB...

how would they help me survive out of combat dangers?
the pertinent ones I'd already be taking...
the big thing for it really is the various knowledge abilities.
... if you don't understand how skills are useful out of combat, I'm going to have to reiterate my suggestion regarding you learning how skills work.

1/hp per level will help me survive... is almost an effective +2 to con. (although, no fort bonus, and no benefit in soaking more con damage before dying from 0 con)
There is no level at which an extra 1hp/level will be regularly important to your survival. At low levels, a simple casting of lesser vigor will eradicate any need of that negligible HP loss, and at high levels it won't matter because any damage that you do take should either be meaningless or enough to kill you regardless, assuming that HP damage is even a bothersome concept at that point.

Heavy armor vs light armor = +4 to AC, that will help me not die.
Bracers of Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor) and Ectoplasmic Skin [MiC170] do the same with less restrictions.

the BAB will help me with spells that require a ranged touch attack (or regular, but why would i use those?). BAB makes quite a difference actually on hitting with spells that require a to hit.
Knowledge Devotion negates any penalties your lost BAB would impose on your attacks, and if you PrC out early enough (which you certainly should) it will grant significantly more AB than you lost.

Even if I am flying, with concealment, and staying out of melee... I would like to have better armor, HP, and BAB...
especially since all I get for it is more knowledge skills...
Then perhaps your priorities are the problem, rather than the class variant.


You are telling me it is laughable, why is it laughable? what good are those extra skill points?
I shouldn't have to repeat myself. See my second and third points.


The speak language is the best damn feature of the class actually...
it is also completely unacceptable that they lose important skills...
Perhaps you don't value Cloistered Cleric because you (obviously) don't understand it.

Also, if you think that the spells granted by the class and the domain suck, then I'll have to assume that you're trolling or are simply not good at this whole CO thing. I certainly do believe that a CC is more powerful than a basic cleric.

Narazil
2009-12-24, 02:32 AM
I call shenigans at gaining Lore, skill points, Knowledge-y spells and the Knowledge domain is a stronger option than better BAB, better saves, better hit dice and better armor proficiencies for optimization.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:35 AM
Wait, are you saying Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Foresight suck?

Forsight... never got to use the spell before, looked it up:
1. It is a level 9 spell, I doubt I will ever get to cast it, ever.
2. it is a 10 min/CL spell, so you have to know you are walking into trouble...
3. It basically makes you impossible to be flat footed... and some AC bonus.

Compare that to good level 9 spells like time stop or gate...
This would have been a nice level 6 spell.

As for clairaudience/clairvoyance:
The bad:
1. Casting Time: 10 minutes
2. Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
3. Duration: 1 min./level (D)
4. the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one
5. the sensor doesn’t move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired
6. Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it
7. If the chosen locale is magically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10-foot radius around the center of the spell’s effect

The good:
1. you do not need line of sight.


I like the variant, and I think it's a fair trade. But then again, I think the Cleric class is trying to fit into to pairs of shoes at once: Being the spellcasting Priest type, and the holy avenger Paladin-isq type at the same time. With Cloistered Cleric, you trade your Paladin-isq for more Priest-y class features.

which are... more languages, decipher script, knowledge skills and less armor and less HP and you cannot aim your spells as well?

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 02:38 AM
I call shenigans at gaining Lore, skill points, Knowledge-y spells and the Knowledge domain is a stronger option than better BAB, better saves, better hit dice and better armor proficiencies for optimization.

Hm? BAB obviated with one spell slot, CC doesn't have different saves, I don't value hit dice as meaningful at all (clerics could have a d4 and still have more HP than average rangers, rogues, monks, and paladins), and AC quickly becomes absolutely worthless unless you have it in amounts that Heavy Armor simply can't provide. Nearly all of my clerics are Cloistered, including most of those that I've made for the test of spite.

Narazil
2009-12-24, 02:40 AM
Forsight... never got to use the spell before, looked it up:
1. It is a level 9 spell, I doubt I will ever get to cast it, ever.
2. it is a 10 min/CL spell, so you have to know you are walking into trouble...
3. It basically makes you impossible to be flat footed... and some AC bonus.

Compare that to good level 9 spells like time stop or gate...
This would have been a nice level 6 spell.
You hurt me. You hurt me deep in my soul. A Persisted Foresight is only the best thing ever. "You are never surprised or flat-footed." No surprice rounds for your opponents. Ever.

Tanaric
2009-12-24, 02:41 AM
I call shenigans at gaining Lore, skill points, Knowledge-y spells and the Knowledge domain is a stronger option than better BAB, better saves, better hit dice and better armor proficiencies for optimization.

:smallsigh:

So, instead of gaining Knowledge Devotion for free (assuming you drop the domain as per CChamp's swapping rules, if such is your fancy), and having skillpoints to up any skills other than concentration and spellcraft (Tumble? UMD? Who would ever want those? Those are for rogues, not clerics, lolz!), you'd rather have... heavy armor and 1 hp/level?

Interesting.

Also, everyone knows all varieties of clerics have full BAB. It's a fact. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Divine_power)

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 02:43 AM
Forsight... never got to use the spell before...

It amuses me greatly that you're passing judgement on spells that you've never even read. It makes one wonder if your entire argument is as empty as that one.

Narazil
2009-12-24, 02:44 AM
Well, I guess Cloistered Clerics don't give up nearly as much as I think them to do.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:45 AM
Ok, I explained before that in my game there is no metamagic reduces of any kinds at all, including DMM and rods of metamagic.

So I cannot persist a level 9 spell... persisting a level 3 spell will require a 9th level slot and 2 feats.

yes... DMM via nightsticks foresight is actually a useful spell... although still not necessarily worth it in this case.
And I frankly never met a DM who allows DMM via nightsticks. RAP trumps RAW.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:46 AM
It amuses me greatly that you're passing judgement on spells that you've never even read. It makes one wonder if your entire argument is as empty is that one.

no, I am passing judment on a list of two dozen or so spells out of which ONE I didn't read (It was an oversight, I would have read it before replying had I noticed it was there). the rest i recognize and know their worth.

some are actually spells I would like to use, just not spells worth the price I am paying...

Narazil
2009-12-24, 02:47 AM
no, I am passing judment on a list of two dozen or so spells out of which ONE I didn't read (It was an oversight, I would have read it before replying had I noticed it was there). the rest i recognize and know their worth.

some are actually spells I would like to use, just not spells worth the price I am paying...
I think the others have pretty much proven you aren't actually paying anything, really.

Ernir
2009-12-24, 02:48 AM
Foresight is one of the better 9th levels out there, I'd say. :smalleek:

And I say Cloistered Clerics are better. You do lose 1 HP/level until you PrC out, and need to spend a bit more resources on getting your AC up. In return you get 4 more skill points per level, and some random abilities. 4! I'd hit it just for Knowledge Devotion...

Tanaric
2009-12-24, 02:49 AM
Ok, I explained before that in my game there is no metamagic reduces of any kinds at all, including DMM and rods of metamagic.

So I cannot persist a level 9 spell... persisting a level 3 spell will require a 9th level slot and 2 feats.

yes... DMM via nightsticks foresight is actually a useful spell... although still not necessarily worth it in this case.

Alright. Persisted Foresight aside, let's look at two sets of very basic options.

Option 1 gives you 20 less HP at level 20, and a lack of AC that can be made up through items very easily. In exchange, it gives you the ability to move without provoking AoOs, use off-list spells when you feel like it for a small cost, gain a varying bonus to attacks and damage against everything you fight, and still retains all the spellcasting power of Option 2. It's a Cleric++, in essence, all for the low low cost of some hitpoints you won't need if you aren't "doin' it rong".

Option 2 gives you none of the above, in exchange for armor you don't really need and 20 more HP at level 20. Yay?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:50 AM
I think the others have pretty much proven you aren't actually paying anything, really.

No they haven't. They said "skills are awesomesauce" and "armor, HP, and BAB are not worth anything". And "by using this abuse RAW mechanic which you explicitly said is not allowed by your DM you can patch up some of the downsides of the cloistered cleric


it gives you the ability to move without provoking AoOs, use off-list spells when you feel like it for a small cost, gain a varying bonus to attacks and damage against everything you fight, and still retains all the spellcasting power of Option 2.

thank you, and this is why I was asking "what am I missing here", so someone points those out...
This is certainly a nice list of gains... can you please explain how it gives me any of those things you listed? because they are not immediately noticeable to me.

PS... I expect to start at level 1, I am playing a cleric because I am sick to death of micro managing my spellbook with a wizard (power be damned I want things to be simpler), and I do not expect to go beyond level 13...

I am interested in arguing the merits of cloistered by the RAP and RAW with optimizations up to level 20 btw... Because I currently think it is a sub par option even by RAW (yes, even with DMM abuse with nightsticks).

Tanaric
2009-12-24, 02:53 AM
No they haven't. They said "skills are awesomesauce" and "armor, HP, and BAB are not worth anything". And "by using this abuse RAW mechanic which you explicitly said is not allowed by your DM you can patch up some of the downsides of the cloistered cleric

That's because skills are awesome.

Unless you like provoking AoOs. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tumble_Skill) Or not being able to cast off-class spells, among other things, I suppose. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Use_Magic_Device_Skill)

Now, let's assume level 20 for a moment. What, exactly, are you planning on fighting where 20 HP will matter at all? Level 10, same deal. What are you planning on facing where 10 whole hitpoints will stand between you and the cold embrace of death?

Edit:
can you please explain how it gives me any of those things you listed? because they are not immediately noticeable to me.

See above. Plus Knowledge Devotion, Complete Champion.

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 02:56 AM
21 HP, actually. Assuming max at first, you lose 21 HP.

Also, Armor is worth nothing. Full Plate, at mid levels and above, won't stop you from getting hit from people who are meant to hit you.

HP is worth something. 21 HP, however, is worth nothing.

For a cleric, BAB is worth nothing. The best offensive cleric spells don't require an attack roll, and those that do only require a touch attack. If BAB is that important to your cleric, Divine Power grants you full BAB. As such, moving from mid BAB to Low BAB in your early cleric levels literally means almost nothing.

Skills? Worth something. Most clerics don't invest heavily in Int, and skills help with Knowledge Devotion, Tumble, UMD, and perhaps most importantly Prestige Class qualification.

The Knowledge Domain? Definitely worth quite a bit.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:56 AM
cloistered clerics do not get tumble or UMD as a class skill... a regular cleric can take both of those for equal effectiveness...

Even with light armor, they still suffer armor check penalties.

Even with no armor at all, they will not reliably make the DC15 check until very very late in their career.


HP is worth something. 21 HP, however, is worth nothing.
last game I played, we had about 5 or 6 players deaths... all but one would have been avoided had the player had 10 extra HP.

I used ruin delver fortune (immediate interrupt for extra HP) to avoid death multiple times.

At some spots an extra of 10 or so HP would have been the difference between "character is dead" and "our wizard survived the surprise round, won iniative (due to initiative specialization) and has the spells to win the encounter for us"


oh, and the armor is worthless thing? maybe at very high levels... at lower levels it is a life saver.

Narazil
2009-12-24, 03:01 AM
At some spots an extra of 10 or so HP would have been the difference between "character is dead" and "our wizard survived the surprise round, won iniative (due to initiative specialization) and has the spells to win the encounter for us"
How could you ever question the use of Foresight? :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:05 AM
How could you ever question the use of Foresight? :smallbiggrin:

Heh.... oh its an awesome effect. the problem is the whole "level 9" and 10min / level thing that is a problem...
The only time you will have it on, is if you are expecting an attack (and thus should not have a surprise round)... also, you know... time stop and gate...

if it was a lower level spell, or if it had hours/CL duration I'd get it in a heartbeat...

Also, it is by far the single most useful spell cloistered clerics get... by a huge margin.
While it will not be of use to me due to houserules and level of gameplay. By the RAW every cleric should use DMM persist on it. By the RAP, DMs often allow DMM persist without nightsticks, or just one spell per day, and it is an excellent choice for your daily persist spell...

Tanaric
2009-12-24, 03:09 AM
Also, it is by far the single most useful spell cloistered clerics get... by a huge margin.

Except for the part where Cloistered Clerics get that for free, in addition to everything else the normal Cleric gets, spellwise?

"Hey, you, kid. Yeah, you. Look, here's the deal, see. If you take a couple 'penalties' that make people think you're weaker, we'll secretly give you the ability to do stuff you couldn't before, because normal Clerics weren't good enough.*"

"Um... okay? What's the catch? :smallconfused:"

You seem to be stuck on the idea that less HP actually constitutes a "catch" in more than name.

*See what I did there?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:11 AM
Except for the part where Cloistered Clerics get that for free, in addition to everything else the normal Cleric gets, spellwise?

free? they still have to give up a bunch of class features... survive levels 1-16, and then actually use up a level 9 slot AND have DMM allowed for it to be happen...
strange definition of free.

Aquillion
2009-12-24, 03:12 AM
Foresight aside, the problem is that most of the Cloistered Cleric bonus spells are spells that you only need one person in the party to have -- it generally doesn't help you a huge amount to have an extra person who can cast identify, or tongues, or vision, or things like that. So if you already have a wizard, they're a bit redundant.

And Foresight does get slightly overrated. Remember that you have to use some sort of trick if you want it up all the time, and you're devoting a precious 9th level slot to it, and despite its sweeping power it is ultimately situational. It comes up a lot in message board discussions about 'how could a wizard beat X', but in actual play it's less likely to be useful unless your DM is outrageously determined to kill you, specifically (as opposed to your whole party.)

Also, even if you're going up against hyper-deadly ambushes constantly, chances are they're going to target the Wizard first, not you, because the Wizard is still easier to drop in one hit, and has spells that are more likely to be fight-deciding in the first few rounds. This makes it somewhat less valuable to a Cleric, even a Cloistered one (you still have light armor and a slightly bigger HD than the wizard.)

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 03:12 AM
Eh, if that's how your campaigns roll, so be it. You wanted to know if Cloistered Cleric is decent from an optimization standpoint, from which it is quite better than its non-cloistered brethren. If we're used to different levels of optimization, it's entirely possible that you don't need to use a cloistered cleric, or you don't see its use. On the same coin, a specialist evoker is still a wizard; you don't have to play a conjurer just because it's generally better. I respect your opinion if you'd rather just play a normal cleric, regardless of the obvious advantages of the alternative.

Tanaric
2009-12-24, 03:13 AM
free? they still have to give up a bunch of class features... survive levels 1-16, and then actually use up a level 9 slot AND have DMM allowed for it to be happen...
strange definition of free.

A... bunch of class features? Like... 2xlevel skillpoints?

Oh, wait.

Maybe they were giving up Turn Undea- no, that's not it...

Oh, it must be the heavy armor and hitpoints that people have already told you hardly matter, and went on to explain why.

"Lalalala I'm not listening!" isn't a valid defense. :smallsigh:

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:14 AM
You seem to be stuck on the idea that less HP actually constitutes a "catch" in more than name.

not quite, giving up that HP is not that big of a deal... there is amulets of health, a good con score, typically houseruled "toughness' feat (+1HP/level bonus or even MORE) and other ways to compensate...

I am frankly more concerned about the lack of worth of most of the "cool abilities" cloistered gain. That is, they are not that cool...

I am frankly more concerned about the lack of worth of most of the "cool abilities" cloistered gain. That is, they are not that cool...

The 6+int instead of 2+int skillpoints mean that instead of an int 14 human cleric with:
know (religion)
concentration
spellcraft
UMD
Tumble (for use at levels approaching 20... when you can actually make the check once you ditch some armor)

A cloistered cleric can get all of these with int 8 and race: not human.

That, and having language, is the best abilities of the class...

Foresight:
For me: I will never be high enough level to cast it.
By RAW: awesome excellent feature at level 17+ thanks to DMM abuse.
By RAP: awesome excellent feature at level 17+ if your DM allows very limited DMM... otherwise just wayyyy too situational...

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 03:17 AM
not quite, giving up that HP is not that big of a deal... there is amulets of health, a good con score, typically houseruled "toughness' feat (+1HP/level bonus or even MORE) and other ways to compensate...

Improved Toughness, you mean? That's an actual feat.


I am frankly more concerned about the lack of worth of most of the "cool abilities" cloistered gain. That is, they are not that cool...

If you just care about flavor, why did you ask about the class from a mechanical standpoint? :smallconfused:

Ernir
2009-12-24, 03:20 AM
I am frankly more concerned about the lack of worth of most of the "cool abilities" cloistered gain. That is, they are not that cool...

But skill points are cool. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:24 AM
Improved Toughness, you mean? That's an actual feat.
Improved toughness is an epic feat, and it requires toughness (+3 HP) as a prereq... so it is actually 2 feats at level 21+ for 11.5 HP each.


If you just care about flavor, why did you ask about the class from a mechanical standpoint? :smallconfused:

mechanical.


But skill points are cool. :smalltongue:

Those skillpoints ARE nice...

I can be a non human with int 8 instead of a human with int 14 and still have UMD, tumble, knowledge religion, spellcraft, and concentration.
This is especially nice if doing point buy...
And min maxing to the max...

Tanaric
2009-12-24, 03:27 AM
Improved toughness is an epic feat, and it requires toughness (+3 HP) as a prereq... so it is actually 2 feats at level 21+ for 11.5 HP each.

You... do know that Improved Toughness and Epic Toughness aren't even close to the same, right?

Improved Toughness does exactly what your "houseruled" Toughness does. +1 hp/level.

Complete Warrior, if you weren't aware.

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 03:34 AM
Improved toughness is an epic feat, and it requires toughness (+3 HP) as a prereq... so it is actually 2 feats at level 21+ for 11.5 HP each.
It's like, you keep on exhibiting how unfamiliar you are with the system. Do you perhaps mean Epic Toughness, and not the Improved Toughness feat in Complete Warrior that only requires a Fort Save of +3 and grants you +1 HP/HD?


mechanical.
How is CC really worse mechanically? Do I have to give you a real example?

Okay, so, cloistered cleric.
Take 4 levels of cloistered Cleric. You've lost:
5 HP - Just 5. The extra domain is equal to a feat, and improved toughness (not that I'm ever suggesting you take improved toughness) equalizes it.
1 BAB - 1 less than a cleric. 0 less than a cleric with what is quite possible the most common cleric buff.
Armor Proficiencies. - Armor, like I've said, is not such a big deal. Take a PrC if it's that integral to your character. Bone Knight, for example, is fantastic for this.
You've gained:
22 Skill points, and several class skills. You can't replicate that with a feat equivalent.
10 spells added to your list. - Nor this, for the most part. Several of these are usable.
An excellent bonus domain, tied to an even better Devotion feat. - This is absolutely fantastic, and my favorite part of the variant.
A fairly meh class feature. - Lore, admittedly, is boring.

Let's stop at level 4 because, honestly, this is when you should probably PrC out. Take Church Inquisitor; class features, d8 HP, 4+int skills, full spell progression, and 3/4 BAB. After four levels of that, take Bone Knight. d10, 2+Int (which does suck, sadly), 3/4 BAB, 9/10 Spell Progression, and absolutely amazing class features, like immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, physical ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, massive damage, stun, nonlethal damage, critical hits, and being disabled when at negative hit points.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:34 AM
1. no i was not aware of it. I thought epic toughness was called improved toughness. my bad,
2. actually my houseruled one gives 2+1hp/level... I was saying a typical houserule which I have seen around is 1hp/level. This works into the "my case" and RAP, but RAW there is no alternative source for this loss. Anything that increases your HP will STACK with HP gained from your class... so you are not actually replacing it...
3. I am going to look it up right away, but I am guessing that improved toughness requires toughness as a prereq?
EDIT: no, apparently it only takes having +2 base fort save. So cleric, cloistered or otherwise, could take it at level 1... and I will be taking it (although not at level 1).


22 Skill points, and several class skills. You can't replicate that with a feat equivalent.

10 spells added to your list. - Nor this, for the most part. Several of these are usable.

An excellent bonus domain, tied to an even better Devotion feat. - This is absolutely fantastic, and my favorite part of the variant.

See, you need to post more actual points instead of just beating me over the head with "you don't know the system" or "why can't you see it is awesome".
And frankly. Confusing epic toughness and improved toughness does not equal "you don't know the system".

0. AC is nice and useful, especially in low levels.
1. 22 skill points is indeed nice, it would require you to be a human with 6 more int to replicate. should you have the desire to, for some reason. I can live without it
2. which of the spells are actually good?
3. The bonus domain given is, IMO the worst domain there is. You say it is excellent, why?
3a. "tied to an even better Devotion feat" - now that is interesting, and something nobody mentioned before. What is that devotion feat you mention?

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 03:44 AM
It's cool, don't worry about it. Improved Toughness, CWar 101, requires only a base fort save of +2.

Sequester, Tongues, and Analyze Dweomer have uses. Considering that they're practically free, they're even better.

Extra class skills, Foresight, True Seeing, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, and the occasional CL+1.

Knowledge Devotion has been discussed several times. Complete Champion 60.

feyanor
2009-12-24, 03:49 AM
No, actually it doesn't(@Impr. Toughness).
But another bunch of questions first...
What do you plan to do with the character? I mean which PrCs(if any) will you take and which role in the party is he supposed to fill?
Does your dm allow cc tradeoffs of domains for their devotion feats?
Are you planing on having a high cha score? In which case a maxed or nearly maxed UMD, which you can actually afford as cloistered cleric, will greatly help you.

EDIT: Post is in reference to taltamir post =)

taltamir
2009-12-24, 04:34 AM
knowledge devotion sounds really really nice on first read...

but then I am reminded that I am a full caster and should not be making damage rolls... and you said that the cleric does not have useful ranged touch attack spells so BAB / and bonus to attack matters little...
Although, when out of spells, or when conserving spells, both would be really nice when combined with a bow...
So yes, I think knowledge devotion really justifies a feat... Knowledge domain isn't is less of a benefit here than the extra skill points of the cloistered are.


No, actually it doesn't(@Impr. Toughness).
But another bunch of questions first...
What do you plan to do with the character? I mean which PrCs(if any) will you take and which role in the party is he supposed to fill?
Does your dm allow cc tradeoffs of domains for their devotion feats?
Are you planing on having a high cha score? In which case a maxed or nearly maxed UMD, which you can actually afford as cloistered cleric, will greatly help you.

1. What do you plan to do with the character? - be a tier 1 full caster that doesn't require me to suffer through micro managing a spellbook... I recently created a level 11 alt cleric... And I made a full hyperlinked list of every cleric spell my character will ever get in under 2 hours... and in one extra hour I had chosen and prepared spells for all his slots...
It took me about 3 hours per LEVEL of to chose wizard spells from approved books.
Going from level 8 to 11 (DM was leaving, had to finish fast so we leveled 3 levels at once), took me 18 hours on said wizard.
Mere days ago I spent 14 hours building a level 13 "steretypical unoptimized evocation blaster using core only" for a challenge.

Yes, wizard is the most uber... but dear god the time investment is obscene.

2. I mean which PrCs(if any) will you take - No clue yet. I doubt any. (low level campaign probably...)

3. and which role in the party is he supposed to fill? - not quite sure, I don't know what others are playing... also, we are not exactly all "filling a role". (we are pretty weird about that)

4. Does your dm allow cc tradeoffs of domains for their devotion feats? - I do not understand the question.
EDIT: wait, do you mean, take knowledge devotion (which gives knowledge domain), and get another domain instead because both CC and the feat both give me knowledge domain? I haven't asked... although that would be really really nice.

5. Are you planing on having a high cha score? - I have a choice, 4d6b3, roll 7 keep 6. Or 32 point buy. I have yet to choose which one I go with and I cannot predict my scores yet.

6. In which case a maxed or nearly maxed UMD, which you can actually afford as cloistered cleric, will greatly help you. - Couldn't I do it with a cleric too? My last few builds were UMD up the wazoo (actually we always play with "skill focus makes it a class skill for all classes) and it had very very limited use... although it DID have use.
This isn't a "assassinate one known opponent in CO arena" case... UMDing consumables is painful. Especially in very low levels.

PS. Thank science I Do not use IE anymore... or this post would have been lost... I finished it on 3:10am. after database backup began..

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 05:05 AM
knowledge devotion sounds really really nice on first read...

but then I am reminded that I am a full caster and should not be making damage rolls...
That part doesn't follow. You're a full caster with Cleric spells, not Wizard spells. Cleric spells and domains let you tank out if you want, because they're just much more effective at that sort of thing than the weak sauce of Tenser's Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm). A Cloistered Cleric at level 7+ can be a better melee combatant than pretty much any straight martial class, from the combination of:

Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm)
Magic Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm)
War domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#warDomain)
Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm)
Knowledge Devotion
another domain (such as Travel, which you can swap for Travel Devotion for 10 consecutive rounds of swift action moves, 3x/day with your CHA score of 12)
And yes, you can also just stand back and cast spells all the time. You've got options.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:11 AM
That part doesn't follow. You're a full caster with Cleric spells, not Wizard spells. Cleric spells and domains let you tank out if you want, because they're just much more effective at that sort of thing than the weak sauce of Tenser's Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm). A Cloistered Cleric at level 7+ can be a better melee combatant than pretty much any straight martial class, from the combination of:

Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm)
Magic Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm)
War domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#warDomain)
Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm)
Knowledge Devotion
another domain (such as Travel, which you can swap for Travel Devotion for 10 consecutive rounds of swift action moves, 3x/day with your CHA score of 12)
And yes, you can also just stand back and cast spells all the time. You've got options.

you seem to be correct.
By raw, with knowledge devotion and DMM abuse, a CC is an even better gish than the cleric.

Although, most/many don't apply in my specific case

Narazil
2009-12-24, 05:20 AM
you seem to be correct.
By raw, with knowledge devotion and DMM abuse, a CC is an even better gish than the cleric.

Although, most/many don't apply in my specific case
Where's the DMM in there?
Y'know, you can cast buffs without extending them, and you can even memorize them several times a day.

Superglucose
2009-12-24, 05:24 AM
I'd like to point out that 10 min/level isn't as bad as you might think. With a Karma bead and an ioun stone you're at cl 26, which is 260 minutes or four hours and twenty minutes.

I.e. it lasts the entire dungeon crawl.

Sure you can't put it up at the beginning of the day, but unless your GM makes every single combat an ambush in the middle of nowhere you should be ableto have Foresight up pretty much of the time... even without persist.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:27 AM
Where's the DMM in there?
Y'know, you can cast buffs without extending them, and you can even memorize them several times a day.

you are joking right?
For rounds/CL spells?
how many rounds do you expect to just sit back and buff yourself so that you could go into melee as a competent gish?

You could be casting encounter ending spells or uber buffing your full BAB martial's instead (making them stronger then you would have otherwise been)

Eldariel
2009-12-24, 05:29 AM
Foresight:
For me: I will never be high enough level to cast it.
By RAW: awesome excellent feature at level 17+ thanks to DMM abuse.
By RAP: awesome excellent feature at level 17+ if your DM allows very limited DMM... otherwise just wayyyy too situational...

It's also fine with Pearls of Power and Rod of Greater Extend; it's 10 min/level so a Cleric can easily reach 1 day with 3 castings.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 05:45 AM
you seem to be correct.
By raw, with knowledge devotion and DMM abuse, a CC is an even better gish than the cleric.
Personally, I think Divine Metamagic is overrated. It only takes one successful dispel to undo the buffing that required 4 feats (Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)). So my list includes hours/level buffs, plus just one spell (Divine Power) you cast as you're closing for melee combat. No Divine Metamagic needed.

Eldariel
2009-12-24, 05:48 AM
Personally, I think Divine Metamagic is overrated. It only takes one successful dispel to undo the buffing that required 4 feats (Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)). So my list includes hours/level buffs, plus just one spell (Divine Power) you cast as you're closing for melee combat. No Divine Metamagic needed.

It's easy enough to reach high enough CL to stop most mundane Dispels though, leaving only Abjuration-specialized Wizards for you to worry about. With Outsiders' Dispels and such out of the picture, you're generally fine.

And of course, Ring of Spell-Battle can be used to counter some forms of Dispel Magic, and more importantly Disjunction. I mean, I suppose a resolved Dispel from an opponent with incredibly pumped caster level could be problematic, but those are rare enough.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-24, 05:55 AM
.... :smallconfused:

I'd gladly take a hit to armor and hitpoints for an extra domain. Especially the knowledge domain. The spells are wonderful. I wanna list them!

Detect secret doors: Meh. when you need it, YOU NEEDZ IT! Mostly just used for treasure hunting. (but woe be yea that lacks this in the underdark!)

Detect thoughts: whoa momma! This is good. This is Gold. use it in combat to screw up the baddies tactics. Use it to get the info needed to save the day. Blackmail, hidden stashes, trap locations. If you can't find a million and one uses for this then I feel sorry for you.

Clair... No. I officially rename these GOD Sight and GOD Ears. Everyone must now edit their phbs to show this update. I propose "Two inches to the left of Steve the lockpicks head" as a known location.

Divination is damn useful. Should I pack for planar travel today? Should I blow all my cash on that +1 club of thumpitywhack? Would it be advisable to invest in several pounds of diamonds for the near future? Was the last question answered in a truthful manner? Is the Princess in another castle? Can this spell be used for making sure your still following the kick ass adventure the DM spent all winter break making instead of wandering around the willie whacks? The answer to all of these is YES!

True Seeing. Ever fight a hag? I did once. Damn thing floated over the ground and was invisible. The only reason we didn't suffer a TPK was because I got luck (with a hag?! eeew!). Now if we had this spell, we wouldn't have lost two people and suffered a handful of permanent stat losses (I think it was a total of 20~ish points lost to her). If you can't see it, you can't fight it. This spell prevents the situation.

Find the Path. Counters maze (an 8th level spell) in a single round. Helps avoid tripwires and a few other traps, works like a tour guide minus the mandatory stop at the crappy souvenir shop. It's not quite On Star but hey, you have two other domains worth of spells to put in this slot so :tongue:

Legend Lore. Because it's pointless to gather intell in the BBEG.

Discern location. Hello, Ethereal Filtcher that stole that awesome weapon my DM gave me by accident back at level 5? I want it back now.:smallfurious:

Foresight. by the time you get it you'll have it up for a few hours at a time so the duration isn't a problem. Now for the best part of this spell: It shuts down sneak attack. Say that with me. It. Shuts. Down. Sneak. Attack. Did you get that? You get to say "NO" to several classes, and they might as well pack up their toys and go home. Better yet, you get to cast this on anyone you want, and THEY get to say "NO" to things too. "NO" when to counter spell. "NO" when to throw the BSF in the way of danger. "NO" when the milk will go bad in the ice box.

The Domain's ability is meh. But you can swap that out for the CC feat thingy and become an even better beat stick than a normal cleric. You WILL hit harder and more often.

You can either take Medium armor Prof. feat or pick up the armor Prof. from a PrC. at low levels most heavy armor is too expensive anyways and the negatives have proven to be more fatal out of combat than the armor was life saving in combat. Six feet of water turns everything bigger than a breastplate into a casket. It makes climbing a ladder a potentially fatal endeavor. It makes any form of stealth imposable and makes you to slow to run away if things go south. Worst, it conflicts with dex, and too many things in D&D depend on a good Dex score (AC, range attacks, AC, some skills, AC, Reflex saves, and did I mention AC.) Also, leather armor is sexy.

Skill points. They let you do things. See above? With the drowning and climbing in heavy armors? Well a normal Cleric Won't have the skill points to counter that big heavy armor. Now a Cleric++ WILL have the extra points to throw into swim and climb if they want. Heck, they can throw them (as a cross class skill) into UMD and just use spiderclimb or water walk AND yes I'll take that scroll from you Mr. Wizard and blast you in the face with your own fireball Mwaaahahahahaa! Sorry, I went mad with power there for a second :smallredface:

The BAB is countered by Divine power as many have already said, but I didn't see anyone mention all your other lower level spells that also help with this. Almost every level has some spell that helps you hit the bad guys more often.

The loss of HP shouldn't be an issue to you. You are THE healing class. If you want more HP, you make it out of thin air, or you can just take it from someone else, Heck, you can just cast Sanctuary and moon the BBEG for the entire combat so who cares about a piddly 20 something HPs? And if you REALLY need to have them, Improved toughness is a decent feat that no one would scoff at and counts as toughness for any PrCs.

Basically, you'll trade one kind of power for another kind. Not only that, but you trade the kind of power that becomes useless as you advance, while gaining the kind that grows with you.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 06:06 AM
It's easy enough to reach high enough CL to stop most mundane Dispels though, leaving only Abjuration-specialized Wizards for you to worry about.
It's not just Wizards; any opposed Cleric with the Inquisition domain will be a challenge because they get +4 to dispel checks after the capped caster level part of the formula. But generally, with sufficient devotion to Persistent buffs in feats, items, undead turn attempts, and spells, you can make that work. I just don't think the investment pays off as well as other approaches. 4 feats and all your regular undead turn attempts? I prefer what Travel Devotion can do with those turn attempts for the cost of one feat.

Eldariel
2009-12-24, 07:36 AM
I find your Swift Actions should be taken anyways; I don't really find Travel Devotion very good for a Cleric. Useful option, occasionally, but IMHO not as good as on many non-casters. And yeah, Inquisition-domain Clerics can cause some problems if you only moderately optimize your anti-casting, but they're nothing compared to Master Specialist Abjurers (with the same Domain through Planar Touchstone or whatever).

But yeah, DMM: Persist costs a lot of feats. Though I do think you'd have Extend Spell anyways, just for Greater Magic Weapons, Magic Vestments, Heroes' Feasts, Superior Resistances and what-have-yous. And having stuff like Foresight, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Holy Star, Surge of Fortune and company persisted on you... Well, sufficient to say, round/level spells get SO much better with DMM: Persist it's not even funny.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 08:13 AM
Cloistered Cleric is badass. Cadderly Bonaduce ftw. :smallcool:

Ashiel
2009-12-24, 08:46 AM
Detect thoughts: whoa momma! This is good. This is Gold. use it in combat to screw up the baddies tactics. Use it to get the info needed to save the day. Blackmail, hidden stashes, trap locations. If you can't find a million and one uses for this then I feel sorry for you.

The biggest thing people forget about detect thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/DetectThoughts.htm) is four scouting. Not scouting for orc encampments, but scouting for enemies within 60ft, and past barriers. Mind Flayers use this tactic exceptionally well (as noted in the 3.5 MM). 1st Round = Presence of Minds. 2nd Round = The number of minds and the intelligence score of each. If you have reason to believe you might be in danger, you get 30 rounds (minimum) when you cast this spell to have what amounts to a 60ft cone-radar that you can re-direct each round. Each level you gain is another 10 rounds you can hold this spell for.


Each round, you can turn to detect thoughts in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

This means you can detect enemies on the other side of doors, walls, and so forth unless they are particularly thick. Such things are worth noting. Finally, as the previous poster pointed out, it's still useful for all the usual things detect thoughts does. :smallamused:

Food for thought. :smallsmile:

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 09:03 AM
What level are you expecting to play at?

If the game starts at 1, runs until 9 or so, then fizzles out, Divine Power only comes into play for a small fraction of the overall combats in your campaign (because when you first gain access to it, there's a lot of competing uses for your limited 4th-level slots). The standard cleric's BAB edge, greater HP, and better armor do make more of a difference at those levels.

If you're starting at 12 or something, then CC looks a lot better.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 09:20 AM
Even if you start at low levels, look at your party's makeup before deciding. A CC makes a great party face, loremonkey or skillmonkey, even if they are weaker at combat - which you might not need if your party already has beatsticks. You'll simply have to focus more on casting than you normally would as a cleric, which you can easily do with the right domains.

Gnaeus
2009-12-24, 09:44 AM
One thing that I like about it is Identify as a divine spell.

My parties use Identify all the fracking time. It costs 100 gp as an ARCANE spell component. Heck, if you aren't a Lawful Good cleric, you could pocket a 100 gp pearl every time your party finds a magic item. Profit!!!

mostlyharmful
2009-12-24, 10:04 AM
The gap between heavy armour and light armour is generally not all that big realistically.

At the crapshoot levels (1-3) nobdy can afford all the shinies they want and full plates generally after basic armour, travellers kit, weapon, whathaveyous. a banded mail versus chainshirt - only 2 points of difference and less if you have a decent Dex for whatever reason.

At low levels (4-8) you're each scripping cash a little less but you're a cleric so you're not bothering too much, magic vestments is on the horizon so don't worry too much about blowing cash BUT and here's the big BUT Mithral is starting to be available. Now the Clerics got Full Plate sure but the CCs got medium armour without blowing a feat or PrCing. FullPlate versus Mithral Breastplate? still just +3 to the standerd Cleric and still levelable with Dex or miss chances.

At high levels you'll either not worry about AC at all or that +3 will be chump change compared to the bazillion different bonus types you can stack on as a buffing fullcaster it's all but nothing.

Now, if you really want to make yourself untouchable the thing to get hold of is a selection of stacking miss chances, far more affordable, easier to crank up as you level and much better at covering your ass as you shocktrooper charge.