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View Full Version : D&D v3.5/Pathfinder: Tactical applications for Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion



Ravingdork
2009-12-24, 02:31 AM
Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion (MMM) says that anyone you select may enter. It also says that the layout of the mansion is entirely up to you up to a certain size. Not only does it make a good escape/hideaway spell much like rope trick does (as you can keep pretty much everyone out), but I was thinking about using it to set up a battleground of sorts.

For example, I am fighting the BBEG (he/him/his). It's not going as well as I'd like because I am on his turf and his terms, so I cast MMM and step through the doorway. He can't pursue until I make him a designated target (the spell doesn't say I have to do it right away). Furthermore, depending on your interpretation, he may even have to wait for me to open the door for him (since it closes behind me). So let's say I go inside and on my next turn cast invisibility upon myself. Then I let him in, slam the door shut behind him (both to creep him out and to trap him), and let him wonder aimlessly in the maze I've trapped him in (the spell seems to indicate that only I can open the door again). At that point, he's on my turf. Since I can design the mansion to have any layout I want, there could be any number of doors and rooms for him to go through, some of which might contain sudden drop offs (nothing says the layout can't be vertical) or other structural hazards/tactical advantages.

Basically, he's a fly caught in a spider's web. Imagine if the layout was something like that one famous piece of optical illusion artwork where the stairs and doorways go all over the place and gravity is weird. ONLY I KNOW THE LAYOUT OF THE MANSION. That alone gives me a huge advantage. Via invisibility and other tricksy spells and illusions (some of my favorites being project image and summon monster) I can perform a variety of hit and run type attacks. With some creativity, it becomes almost impossible to lose (even if he has see invisibility or some similar effect, I could make mundane hiding spaces in the mansion abundant).

This even makes an awesome tactic for the BBEG to use on a group of PC adventurers.

I would like for us all to use this thread to (1) discuss the plausibility of using this spell in this fashion (or any other offensive/tactical fashion) and for us all to (2) brainstorm new ideas to make the trapped victim(s) truly suffer during their stay.


I also had some related questions I was hoping to have answered:

1) What happens if I leave the mansion, then dispel it while there are people still inside? Are they forever trapped in limbo? Killed? Ejected? What normally happens when you are in a dimensional space that suddenly ceases to exist? Perhaps they are somehow "stuck" and magically reappear in the next mansion I create?

2) Are there any limits to what you can have (or not have) in your mansion? Could I, for example, have furniture? Food and other essentials? Thousands of disorienting mirrors (such as a house of mirrors at a carnival)? Traps such as scythe blades and acid pools? If I am a lich that doesn't need to breath, could I make a mansion with no air in it (so that trapped living creature suffocate)?

3) Obviously you can create doors/doorways. But do they have to connect in a logical manner? For example, could I create a "Neo trapped in the subway" kind of effect? If so, this could keep a prisoner extremely vexed for a time.

4) Can you take things out of the mansion with you such as chairs (and other furniture) or food from the banquet?


Thank you kindly for any help/discussion provided.

Ravingdork
2009-12-24, 02:34 AM
Here's a simple starter brainstorm:

The foyer might have only one open door with a long line of rooms behind it, each one with an open door (creating an extremely long hallway). In the last room (the only one with a CLOSED INVISIBLE door) is a projected image of me. With some luck, the BBEG will come running down the extremely long hall and slam full force into the invisible closed door just in front of the illusion. In the meantime, I start hitting the stunned fellow with long range (preferably non-visible) spells from the other end of the hall. If he turns on me, then I can hit him with visible spells from the projected image. In this manner he might have a difficult time combating me as he struggles to determine which caster is real. This works particularly well with quickened open/close spells to shut the doors as needed (such as if he is a ranged attacker that only moves part way down the hall--I can still bloody him up a bit with a prepared action even though he never charges the illusion).

New brainstorm/edit: A gentleman over on the Pathfinder forums (where I have a duplicate of this thread) came up with the idea of having a torture chamber full of wracks, iron maidens and such--as they could potentially be considered furniture. I know not every GM would allow that or follow that particular interpretation, but it certainly is a neat idea.

In fact, that leads me to another idea: Mansions often have libraries, offices, etc. One might be able to have an alchemist's lab or similar useful workplace in his spell--or better yet, a library with hundreds of books and (non-magical) scrolls that tell the caster everything he needs to know about a given subject (such as the type of dragon he is about to face).

I just had another brainstorm/edit: The spell says that the servants are visible, but doesn't describe what they look like. To really mess with the victim(s) you might even be able to have the servants look like their loved ones/hated enemies--or even like a bunch of copies of you, the mansion-creator! (I would hug a GM who allowed such creativity and potential for roleplaying fun--I can just imagine a GM acting out the victim's distress at seeing his wife, children, and other loved ones floating about as ghosts or zombies.)

The more I think about it, the more I love this spell's possibilities. If nothing else, it makes a great GM tool for a manipulative bad guy who like's playing cat and mouse games with his enemies.

Aquillion
2009-12-24, 03:19 AM
Here's the obvious problem: Why on earth would the BBEG enter your mansion? Yes, if he doesn't, you've "escaped", sort of, but you could do that with Teleport, too.

And while you can heal and recover your spells, the BBEG can do the same thing... and he can also access things outside your mansion, which you can't (unless you want to teleport away, but then why bother with the mansion?) He can bring a huge army of minions in to wait for when your mansion expires, or for when he dispels it.

Oh, yes, and he can dispel it. So you can't really sleep in there (although, granted, he can't sleep either unless he wants to call the whole thing a wash and leave, or unless he has powerful enough minions to guard the gate for him and get you when you come out.)

Basically, I'm just not seeing what would make the BBEG follow you in, is what I'm saying, and if he doesn't, you haven't really gained anything from the mansion that you wouldn't have gained by using one of your other spells to simply escape.

Lunawarrior0
2009-12-24, 03:29 AM
There is a big problem with the idea of getting the BBEG into your MMM and then utterly destroying him. The problem is the fact that he has to enter the place. If he just stands outside, or better yet, just leaves you where you are, then you have to find him again.

A different idea is he could simply call in more people. when your spell goes down (or you leave) you then face 20+ guys who were supposed to be fought in several groups.

I supuose that you could use a spell like Command to force the BBEG to walk into the place, but that is a Cleric spell, and would thus require help.

EDIT: hmm, this is the first time I have ever been ninjaed.


About what happens if the time runs out, I would assume that it is similar to the spell Rope Trick, it says that the people just drop out.

About the mansion with libraries, I think you would have to either have the books on you, or be able to basically write the book with what you know, or at least that is what I would have to rule as a DM.

Final thought, RAW MMM can't have the spell Permanence cast on it but that could make a really nifty strong hold for a boss, or even a player.

Another_Poet
2009-12-24, 03:35 AM
I like your idea. Here's my attempt at answers.



1) What happens if I leave the mansion, then dispel it while there are people still inside? Are they forever trapped in limbo? Killed? Ejected? What normally happens when you are in a dimensional space that suddenly ceases to exist?

They are ejected. I state this for two reasons.

First, because the occupants of a Rope Trick are ejected if the spell ends. This is essentially an awesomer Rope Trick; same principle applies.

Second, and more importantly, they must be ejected because the spell creates the extradimensional mansion. It's not that there is already a mansion floating around in another universe; the spell is not a gateway to somewhere that already exists. It is a Conjuration (Creation) spell with an effect of "extradimensional mansion." Thus, the extradimensional space and the mansion-related goods in it are called into being when the spell is cast, and cease to exist when the spell ends. Since you can't be located somewhere that doesn't exist, you must be ejected when that happens.


2) Are there any limits to what you can have (or not have) in your mansion?

There are a lot of limits, pretty strict ones. The most imposing is the space limit. "Up to three 10-ft. cubes/level." Consider that a foyer is required and that's at least one 10-foot cube on its own, and most rooms in a "mansion" will take up be three or four cubes apiece (even small bedrooms will take up one 10x10x10 cube). At 13th level, the minimal level to cast this spell, you have a maximum floor space of 3900 square feet, and that's assuming you're not wasting any cubes on double-tall rooms (ballroom, banquet hall, etc.). To put that in perspective, a typical triplex would be about 3900 square feet. That's a lot of space to lodge guests in but not nearly enough to put a large labyrinth or a variety of creative traps.


Could I, for example, have furniture?

The spell description says: "The place is furnished." So yes.


Food and other essentials?

There's a limit. The spell description says: "Contains sufficient foodstuffs to serve a nine-course banquet to a dozen people per caster level." I'm going to make up some numbers here and say that a 9-course meal contains 4,000 calories. At CL 13 that's 624,000 calories worth of foodstuffs. That works out to the equivalent of 312 trail rations (since a D&D "trail ration" covers an entire day on the trail I assume it has 2,000 calories).

The spell implies that the food is not ready-made, but is in the form of "foodstuffs" i.e. raw or whole foods and ingredients. The nearly-transparent servants presumably cook the food to order. Many a GM would describe the food as being ready made, and that whatever food you wish for comes out of the pantry cooked and ready to eat. But if you are going to try to make a room full of boiling-hot soup or burning flambe, the DM is probably not going to allow it. Unless you order the servants to prepare and cook it, which takes time.


Thousands of disorienting mirrors (such as a house of mirrors at a carnival)?

Yes. Mirrors count as furnishings and the spell does not give a limit. It also doesn't specify style so you can have it be carnivalesque if you like; in fact, this will probably make good ol' Gygax proud, wherever he is.

On the other hand if you want to try to use piles of broken mirrors as traps that is not a "furnishing" because no one has heaps of broken glass lying around their house for decoration or to sit on. Cover all the walls if you want but don't expect 400 mirrors to hang from a thread over the door.


Traps such as scythe blades and acid pools?

No. These are neither furnishing nor foodstuffs and are not included. Besides that, traps carry a CR of their own so allowing them to be summoned with this spell would be sort of like getting free Summon Monster spells. In other words it's adding a damage-dealing component to a spell that is not supposed to deal damage. As a DM I would let a player research a Magnificent Mansion spell that includes traps (Poet's Pugnacious Playhouse?) but it would be a higher level spell than MMM.


If I am a lich that doesn't need to breath, could I make a mansion with no air in it (so that trapped living creature suffocate)?

No. From the spell description: "The atmosphere is clean, fresh, and warm." This makes clear both that there is an atmosphere and that it is not problematic in any way. Air is not a furnishing and as such is not up to the caster.

Of course if, in advance, you built an oversized vaccuum pump and then cast Animated Objects and Invisibility on it, it could wait till you and your victim enter and then seal itself over the door and evacuate the entire mansion. Good luck with that, your GM will have a coronary :)


3) Obviously you can create doors/doorways. But do they have to connect in a logical manner?

They don't have to make sense - i.e., a door can open to nothing but a brick wall, or a staircase can run sideways. However!


For example, could I create a "Neo trapped in the subway" kind of effect?

No. The spell effect is "Extradimensional mansion, up to three 10-ft. cubes/level." So first off it does have to be justifiably a mansion, not some other kind of structure. Secondly the fact that its limitations are given in 3-dimensional increments, i.e. cubes, means that it cannot be a hypercube or similar. Lastly it does not get any magic powers such as teleport circles. Since hypercubes and teleporters are basically the only two ways of creating a looping room, the answer is no.


4) Can you take things out of the mansion with you such as chairs (and other furniture) or food from the banquet?

You can, but the spell has a duration. When the duration is over everything created by the spell vanishes. (Since it is a Conjuration (Creation) spell, this would not be true if the duration were "instantaneous." Stuff created by an instantaneous Conj (Creatn) spell is real, mundane stuff once it's created and does not vanish.) Generally, as a GM I would assume that any food already eaten can remain in the digestive tract of the person who ate it; they don't suddenly feel hungry when the spell ends. But in general everything made by the spell vanishes at the end of the duration. So if you sell all those fancy chairs you're a criminal - you defrauded the poor chair merchants!!



Thank you kindly for any help/discussion provided.

Thanks for an awesome idea. The last thing I would add is to remember those "near-transparent servants (as many as two per caster level), liveried and obedient." Although they cannot be combatants they could probably be helpful in a variety of ways. Read the Unseen Servant description and see what you can do with it. Notably, there's nothing to stop you dressing them all in armour and weapons, except the time it takes to give them to the servants and wait for them to don them. (Armour is not livery, nor are weapons.) YOU know they can't fight but that doesn't mean your GUESTS know they can't fight...

ap

Ravingdork
2009-12-24, 04:34 AM
Thank you for your extensive post AP!

Even with a lot of the limitations you pointed out, there is still a LOT of potential.

A door can still open up to a deep pit (which I could easily conceal with silent image). Rope-tied chandeliers (of which I could have dozens) make fine traps in a pinch (particularly when untied by invisible me, mage hand, or the servants).

All one need do is be creative to make it work.

Also, thanks for the new brainstorm. Conning merchants into buying a mansion load of furniture, platters, silver wear, etc. (which lasts for hours and hours and hours giving you time to seal the deal and get out of town) is a great new trick that I hadn't thought of. Other lower level spells might work too, but that doesn't change the validity of the con.

As for making the servants look threatening? Just have them pick up the banquet knives and hurl them. They won't ever hit anyone because they are not allowed to make attack rolls, but they could certainly pose as (inept) attackers. They can do any number of things such as untie a chandelier (see above), reload your crossbow, turn over tables to provide cover, move things about, create distractions allowing you to stay hidden, etc.

EDIT: For the other posters: worst case scenario would probably be me casting the spell only to have the BBEG cast greater dispelling, costing me time and actions. Still, not every BBEG will be a spellcaster or will recognize the spell for what it really is. What's more, these tricks and traps can be used on any number of foes, not just the BBEG. It's easy enough to get the invincible iron golem to follow you into the mansion and then drop him into the deepest pit you can make.

Aquillion
2009-12-24, 06:18 AM
Yeah, I guess it could work on something both really tough and really stupid (like that invincible iron golem), but those things are really not that hard to kill with high-level spells anyway, generally. Any intelligent opponent is just not going to follow you into the mansion, because what do they have to gain? The fact that you summoned the mansion instead of simply teleporting away makes it an obvious trap.

Aside from stupid, mindless or automaton opponents, the only time it would really work is when the opponent is absolutely determined to kill you quickly.

(That said, I vaguely recall a suggested plot hook in one of the books where some thieves fled into a MMM and the PCs have to follow them. Not sure what sort of thieves have access to a 7th level spell, though...)

Roc Ness
2009-12-24, 06:47 AM
If you have access to Animate Objects, I would suggest that you animate the furniture. Nothing says "Fun with pitfalls" like an iron cabinet pushing you into one. :smalltongue:

Ravingdork
2009-12-24, 11:27 AM
If you have access to Animate Objects, I would suggest that you animate the furniture. Nothing says "Fun with pitfalls" like an iron cabinet pushing you into one. :smalltongue:

Yeah, if the entire party goes into the MMM, that's a good one for the party cleric.

It's true that you won't always be able to get someone to follow you. Either they can guess exactly what would happen, are too wary of going through a magical door created by an enemy, or you've used the trick so many times that they know that nobody ever comes out of your magical mansion (your reputation has preceded you).

But that won't always be the case. You don't even need particularly stupid enemies such as golems and beasts. People ignorant of magic (anyone who can't identify a spell) may well think you've teleported away via dimension door or a similar effect--that is until the door re-opens invitingly. It's also possible that you've done something bad enough to your enemy that he will follow you into hell. Or you could use magical suggestion. All they know is that you stepped through a magical doorway that wasn't there before. And if you cast the spell on a wall after turning a corner, they might not even suspect the door is anything more than a mundane door and follow you through in their dogged pursuit. It's also a good way for an evil NPC character to ensnare the everyday man. A magical mansion full of food and servents is most tempting to a man dying of thirst in the desert (and who happened to stumble onto the territorial witch's land).

There are plenty of methods/scenarios in which one could get victim(s) into their fun house.

Frozen_Feet
2009-12-24, 11:43 AM
What about a team member bullrushing or otherwise knocking the BBEG trough the doorway? Not always possible, of course, but it's one option. Would also make for an awesome battle.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-24, 12:25 PM
"Yes, my dear Wigglesworth, as you can observe my magical prowress has provided more than adequate habitation space with all the amenities. The crowning achievement of this wizardry, if I do say so myself, is this antique relic cannon and cannonball collection from ancient people long ago, who, despite their barbarianism, had quite advanced their enchanted projectile assaults. This artifact is quite well preserved, in fact, I believe it works better than the day in which it was made. Oh, and it just so happens to coincidentally be pointed to the exit of my magical estate. What would you say to having a jolly old good bit of fun and trying a go at making a ruckus while we taste some cheese and wine?"

*twirls monocle*

Ravingdork
2009-12-24, 05:18 PM
New Brainstorm: This came from Kakarasa over on Paizo's Pathfinder forums: It would be hilarious if you entered the house, coated the space in a couple gallons of oil, and tricked the BBEG into coming in. Then while invisible dropped a matched and stepped outside, closing the door behind you. It's a bit of a arsonist move, but if they aren't immune to fire, the smoke would choke them or they would burn alive (pending your GM/DM not giving a DC to bust out based on the spell level and such).

This would require no pitfalls or maze traps, and if a player tried it, I'd have to cackle with glee at how they bested my BBEG with a burning house.

(PS... rules for a burning structure are in the 3.5 DMG II)

Ravingdork
2009-12-25, 02:51 AM
What about a team member bullrushing or otherwise knocking the BBEG trough the doorway? Not always possible, of course, but it's one option. Would also make for an awesome battle.

That would absolutely work fine. When I first started on this concept, I imagined the spellcaster creating a pit and then having the party brute push the enemies into it. If anyone can think of other "teamwork" ideas for a party, that would be awesome!

New brainstorms: By Radical Taoist on the WotC forums:

Silent Image over the portal to the Magnificent Mansion. Place the portal over an existing door in the building in which you are casting the spell. Use Silent Image to conceal the shimmering portal so it just looks like part of the building. Make the interior of the mansion identical to the rooms in the real building that your victim would be running into...at first. *evil laugh*
Guards and Wards easily has the area and duration to protect the mansion. Combine with the previous effect for truly sadistic mindbending tactics to make the mark question their sanity and their tactical position.

Brainstorm modification: If your GM won't accept torture devices as furniture, simply improvise. After all, there is absolutely nothing keeping you from tying your victim down to your dining table with belts from the wardrobe and prying their fingernails off with a spork. The best part of it is you are guaranteed not to be interrupted and when you tell your victim that nobody will hear his screams, you really mean it.

Melamoto
2009-12-25, 06:11 AM
This is an awesome idea on many levels. It seems to me like this is more of a BBEG trick, for an awesome encounter that will be remembered by players for years if done right.

Hawriel
2009-12-25, 03:06 PM
Huh, I was going to say play a rogue, sorc, or rogue/sorc con man who does realtor scams. Having detect thoughts and other divination spell the con man would sell the perfect house in prime locations to varios lords, royalty and potential evil warlords. Once the gold is in hand, or portable hole, the con man abscons with the mantion to repeat the scam in another kingdom.

He could also have a deal with a crime lord lone shark. How is that for a mortgage crisis?

Ravingdork
2009-12-25, 03:10 PM
Keep em' coming! :D

I suspect you could have a MMM inside another MMM (depending on the wording of the rules). If that's possible, there are numerous possibilities.

New brainstorm: Create a bunch of rooms, half of which are bricked off and require teleportation magic. In fact, include doorways that are simply bricked off (there is no room on the other side) so when they figure out that they can teleport, it will fail some of the time. Furthermore, hide in a room with an open doorway, but use silent image to brick it off. The BBEG will be so flustered with the other doors, he will likely see the illusion and not even bother to interact with it.

At least, that will work until he starts blasting holes in walls (which is still good, because then he is wasting his spells).

Johel
2009-12-25, 03:29 PM
For a game I'm currently in, my 20th level wizard created a custom magic item.

It's a small ivory portal that creates a MMM (CL20) and a Mage’s Private Sanctum (CL10) active on the whole volume of the MMM, both with no duration limit. The 10 Invisible Servants respawn every 20 hours, as well as the food.

The restrictions are :

The item must stand on a firm, stable ground before being activated.
It takes 30 minutes to activate or deactivate the item.
The item can't be deactivated as long as there's a single living creature in the mansion.
The item can't be moved as long as it is activated.
Anybody can enter the MMM through Teleport or Plane Shift but only invited guests can do so through the portal.

The price of such item : 80.000 po.

It's a strategical campaign and our characters are generals so this kind of item is actually very handy to get a moving and safe HQ, especially since I'm currently trying to cover the inside with Dimension Lock. Eventually, only the entrance will be left uncovered, which will prevent most of the "Scry-And-Die" attempts. It's currently resting inside the King's throne room and probably won't be deactivated, since only I can pass through the portal.