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Adamaro
2009-12-24, 06:13 AM
I heard people often say : "I'm a lvl 20 wizard now. Imma gonna go rape me some world."
Also: "I will not be in no stinky mage's guild. I'm off conquering planes!"

Well here's a couple thoughts on a bunch of lvl 20 wizards living in a same realm and how their "ecology" should shape itself in aspect of their powers.
First, short history:
- once upon a time there were PC classes - wizards. Some of them progresses faster, some slower, but some eventually made it to lvl 20. Some of these were evil and decided to do the above mentioned thing. So I would guess that, eventually, there were lots of other wizards who chased down and killed/captured these rampaging "rouge" wizards because Sauron-style empires in making are sooo annoying. You have to spend an entire day toppling them, while you could dissect that next beholder/develop permanent aphrodisiac-lubricant/ collect CCG ...
Anyway, wizs made sort of a pact: no one will plot against other brother. One who will do so, will be destroyed.
End of story
Why would wizards decide so? (besides the annoying Sauron's empire in making)
Barring the idea of alignment talk being a troll topic, most of people are N or NG, NE. Percentages of LG, CE and similar IMHO - small. So those rogue wizard should be NE, CE, or, possibly LE (but the latter should fit nicely into society, abiding by and bending, but never breaking rules): So, most wizards IMHO would not strove for a "battle royal" where in the end there is left only one wizard, killing anyone in the world trying to get enough knowledge to effectively challenge him.
Ergo, the idea of a guild as an institution, where wizs are able to constantly check on each-others' business and are in fact far more busy with wiz-politics then conquering a continent. And if a tarrasque drops by, two of them spam some timestop and some conjuration and there we go.
This is why I think wizards guilds as in institution of "wizard parliament" is logical and why the idea of conquering the world (Sauron complex) would just not work in a world where lvl 20 wizs (or epic lvl, or whatever - being strong caster is the point) roam.

Comment much appreciated

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 06:18 AM
But why wouldn't you want to be in a guild? If you're in a guild, you can convince your DM to let you take the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC!

Which is awesome.

Aquillion
2009-12-24, 06:34 AM
The biggest problem with such a guild of high-leveled wizards is that then you're left saying "well, why don't they solve all these world-threatening problems?"

I don't think it's a good idea to focus so much on high-level characters that risk overshadowing the players. They should exist, but make them suitably rare and special, people with their own agenda who can be allies or enemies but who don't simply dominate the setting. Once they get past the first few levels, the players ought to feel that people of their power-level are rare enough to make their own characters matter, to give their choices and their deeds some significance in the larger setting. By definition, this means you should avoid having high-level wizards grow on trees.

Everyone hates Elminster for a reason. Nobody would really want to play in a world with an entire organization of Elminsters.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-24, 07:09 AM
The biggest problem with such a guild of high-leveled wizards is that then you're left saying "well, why don't they solve all these world-threatening problems?"

In my campaign world, the mage's guild basically consists of two main kinds of mage

1. Uses magic for own amusement, generally doesn't bother others. (these are the ones who make gingerbread zeppelins)

2. Study hard to advance and improve their magic, and then eventually die without passing it on.

This is partly a result of the culture (If all your friend-mages do this, and your paternal-figure mages do this...) and partly because there are outside forces who work very hard to encourage the mages to all just sit and live in complete opulence.

Of course, they will eventually be roused to do stuff and blow up a few countries, but that doesn't stop the PCs from having crazy adventures.

Johel
2009-12-24, 07:45 AM
The biggest problem with such a guild of high-leveled wizards is that then you're left saying "well, why don't they solve all these world-threatening problems?"

I don't think it's a good idea to focus so much on high-level characters that risk overshadowing the players. They should exist, but make them suitably rare and special, people with their own agenda who can be allies or enemies but who don't simply dominate the setting. Once they get past the first few levels, the players ought to feel that people of their power-level are rare enough to make their own characters matter, to give their choices and their deeds some significance in the larger setting. By definition, this means you should avoid having high-level wizards grow on trees.

Everyone hates Elminster for a reason. Nobody would really want to play in a world with an entire organization of Elminsters.

Same thought here, though I can conceive that a single powerful wizard would gather weaker colleagues, so that their combined resources might help them to achieve goals. A single common goal, at first, but then more individual goals. The synergy of knowledge alone should justify the existence of a Guild.

Of course, once the founder is dead, unless another powerful idealist wizard step to take his mantle, the whole organization would soon degenerate into a "gentlemen club" or into a "cartel", what with the potential for monopoly. This allows the existence of a single, monolithic market for arcane magic rather than having several "freelancers" drop the prices as they compete with one another. World's problems aren't the concern of the wizards : they are a small elite whose main interaction with the world is through other elites who buy magic items and spellcasting and through servants who tend to the material needs of the wizards.

Such freelancers would of course still exist but would mainly be low-level, for several reasons.

Most knowledge of high-level spells is in the hands of the guild. This makes it harder for wizards to get access to them, forcing them to rediscover the spells rather than just copy them and learn.
The young and weak wizards want to join, as the benefits are obvious when you begin your career : tutelage, supply, information... The few who do not and make a business out of magic die before they become really powerful.
The powerful members of the guild don't exactly bother with the guild. It's just a nice place to supply in magic items, gather informations, get loans or find those pesky apprentices you need to clean the lab.


The only way to be a successful low-level wizard and not be part of the guild is to keep moving, so you can make a living out of your science, and to learn fast, as you will otherwise be splatted like a bug once you attract the guild's attention.

Adamaro
2009-12-24, 08:10 AM
The only way to be a successful low-level wizard and not be part of the guild is to keep moving, so you can make a living out of your science, and to learn fast, as you will otherwise be splatted like a bug once you attract the guild's attention.

Do you think wizards could scry on rogue wizards? Also divination spell (cleric) may be usefull. To root out those pesky upstarts, trying to get in the way of The Guild ...

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 08:18 AM
But why wouldn't you want to be in a guild? If you're in a guild, you can convince your DM to let you take the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC!

Which is awesome.

Makes you wonder what the outcome of a three-way battle between the Hathrans, MoTAOs and Red Wizards of Thay would be. :smalleek:

weenie
2009-12-24, 08:22 AM
The only way to be a successful low-level wizard and not be part of the guild is to keep moving, so you can make a living out of your science, and to learn fast, as you will otherwise be splatted like a bug once you attract the guild's attention.

Well, that's only if the guild tries really hard to eliminate the competition. All the resources they offer to the young mages are more than enough to stimulate them to join. And non-guild talented wizards should be rare enough not to pose a real threat to the guild. Keeping a low profile by only taking the jobs, that the guild doesn't want could also help.