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View Full Version : He who worships two gods. [3.5, FR]



Kol Korran
2009-12-24, 07:30 AM
this thread is about understandings certain aspects of god worship in the forgotten realms, and to help enhance the roleplay of a character of mine.

so, the background: i'm started playing a cleric of the Red Knight, and in the mid of the adventure "Cormyr: Tearing of the weave" i felt that my cleric isn't fully happy with his path and ideology- sure, he believed that wars and struggle were an integral part of life, and that one of the hallmarks of civilization behaviour was how you waged such struggles, whether personal, communal, or on a nation scale. but he realised that there are other parts to life, that there must be renewel after death, and that all the fighting must serve other purposes then itself. my cleric began looking for enlightment, and so i started looking through gods (i'm not that savy in the FR setting), until i stumbled on Lathander. the adventure and campaign seemed darkness and undead related, and also Shar in the mix. so i thought of maybe converting to this god.

thing is, i didn't feel it right for my character to totally abandon my current faith entirely. short story is that after soem talks with the DM, i was allowed to worship both (with some proper "revelation event" in game.) the cleric believes he is chosen as a tool/ weapon of an alliance between the two gods, and i was starting to find ways to worhsip and give homage to them both. i wasn't just giving each his due though, i was sort of trying to integrate the two faiths, into a new belief that celebrates battle and strategy, but also reflects on the noncombative life.

the cleric had his belief invigorated, the fight against evil continued, vicotry, hurray!

but now came a long lul between this adventure and the next (3 months), in which each party member went his/her seperate ways. however, rumors spread, and the clerics of both temples think of me as some sort of heresy, that no one can worship two gods, especially a cleric! this was played out more as people trying to convert the cleric to the "true path", argue with him, but most of the normal populace started to just shun him.

my cleric responded with part anger, part doubt, part determination to prove to the others he is right. i even started to erect a new modest temple to both gods, but the builders were "put off" by the clergy of the other temples. meaning- if they do this job for me, they won't work ever again.

i kinda like this! a new adventure since started, and i left those worries aside for the moment, but i wish to try and develop this "integrating two faiths" into a new one, even if it can't be done. so my questions are as follows, mostly to FR experts, but also to the rest of you:


how is god worship handled in the realms? why only one god? are there any examples against it for clerics?
what major questions should i consider while merging the faiths? i have a few in mind, but i'd like to hear what you have to say.
how can i console merging the faiths, but also giving each god it's due? can i just start a mini pantheon? or do you have other ideas?
do you think the gods will accept this? i'm ok either way. so far i am working under the hypothesis that i'm either still a weapon of an alliance between the god, or that the gods actually accept my idea.
what acts can i take to try and make my new faith more acceptable do you think?

i know this type of thread is probably not that popular (most of my threads tend not to be), but i thank everyone who is willing to contribute.

Kol.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 07:37 AM
It doesn't matter if the two gods accept it, it's the ass with the wall of souls you need to worry about.


how is god worship handled in the realms? why only one god? are there any examples against it for clerics?

In the FR you need to worship a god (unless you aren't humanoid, possibly, not sure how that works for groups with their own death god such as dragons) or this guy called Kelemvor Lyonsbane who makes a wall out of the souls of people who aren't taken into a god's afterlife will make you another brick in the wall (it's about as bad as it sounds like, for some reason this guy is LN).

Talya
2009-12-24, 08:16 AM
It doesn't matter if the two gods accept it, it's the ass with the wall of souls you need to worry about. In the FR you need to worship a god (unless you aren't humanoid, possibly, not sure how that works for groups with their own death god such as dragons) or this guy called Kelemvor Lyonsbane who makes a wall out of the souls of people who aren't taken into a god's afterlife will make you another brick in the wall (it's about as bad as it sounds like, for some reason this guy is LN).


Or gods, plural. And it's not entirely true that it doesn't matter if the two gods accept it. Gods in the Realms do sometimes decide that a person's life course and ideology suits them, and rather than simply abandon this person to their fate in the wall, when the person dies they will approach Kelemvor and request their souls for themselves. Barring valid objections, Kelemvor usually accepts such requests.

As for his Alignment, Kelemvor Lyonsbane was, until recently, a mortal human fighter. When Cyric assassinated Myrkul and took his place as Lord of the Dead, Kelemvor, whom Cyric thought dead, bided his time in hiding until the opportunity came to usurp Cyric's position. The Realm of the Dead had taken on a terribly evil appearance over the millenia under the wicked Myrkul, but Kelemvor started to change that. At first Kelemvor was more benevolent, and along with the recently ascended Midnight (Mystra) actively worked with Gods he favored and hindered those he opposed, until they were both censured by the Gods for not performing their duties without partiality. He litterally has no choice anymore. Suffice it to say that his decisions are more fair than his predecessors.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 08:18 AM
I thought it was because the god's died without worship and the wall insured worship of gods (in other words, he is a politician pointing a gun at your head threatening to shoot you if you don't reelect him)

jmbrown
2009-12-24, 08:45 AM
You can worship multiple deities but you only gain power from the one you're closely aligned to. People in polytheistic societies generally revere all the deities of the pantheon. They curse the god of misfortune when they lose at a game of chance and praise the god of agriculture when the crops are plentiful. Regardless, your devotion is spent towards a single god and that's the one that grants your domains.

Amphetryon
2009-12-24, 09:03 AM
When Cyric assassinated Myrkul and took his place as Lord of the Dead, Kelemvor, whom Cyric thought dead, bided his time in hiding was hidden from Cyric by the god Mask in his aspect as Cyric's sword, Godsbane, until the opportunity came to usurp Cyric's position.FTFY, having just reread the Avatar series.

AslanCross
2009-12-24, 09:38 PM
You can worship multiple deities but you only gain power from the one you're closely aligned to. People in polytheistic societies generally revere all the deities of the pantheon. They curse the god of misfortune when they lose at a game of chance and praise the god of agriculture when the crops are plentiful. Regardless, your devotion is spent towards a single god and that's the one that grants your domains.

This. You acknowledge the existence of all the other gods (naturally), and acknowledge their domains and power (in Faerun, of all places, it's easy to see the gods working as opposed to say, Eberron), but you gravitate toward a particular philosophy and devote yourself to that god in particular. That's how it works in some real-life polytheistic systems.

Now I do think you won't be trusted by the clergy of the two faiths, but the gods themselves won't take offense at it as they're not diametrically opposed to each other (unlike if you were somehow a cleric of both Selune and Shar, who hate each other). On the other hand, I'd think more would be expected out of a cleric's devotion. You could probably agree with your old faith and never truly leave it, but you only get your power from only one god.

I think it would make more sense to be a devotee of gods who are known to work together, though---for example, Lathander and Sune, or the Triad, or Mystra and Azuth, or Tempus and Red Knight.

The mechanical issue here is that you have access to more domains. :P That's kinda cheap.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 09:48 PM
builders were put off? why are you using builders?

get your party's wizard a few low level scrolls like move earth and shape stone. have him scribe them into his spellbook...

he can now prepare a bunch of them and practically build a castle in a single day. for free

arguskos
2009-12-24, 10:01 PM
Well, considering who you are worshipping, I think that from the divine aspect of things, there's no issue. Lathander has a good relationship with Tempus (The Red Knight's direct superior in the divine realms), so that's not going to be a conflict.

The issue is that your character is claiming that you can draw power from both gods, which, based on the way faith and power works in the Realms, isn't possible. What needs to happen here is you need to probably pick a single god to draw power from, while venerating a wider spectrum of beliefs.

Also, to complicate matters, there is the issue of the Heresy of the Risen Sun that might cause issues for you in the future. The Lathanderian Church has some issues with a group of priests who believe that Lathander is an avatar of Amunator, the ancient Netherese god of the sun. They are heavily Lawful, though they are accepted by the Lathanderian faith at large, there's still some friction there.

Perhaps, as a priest of the Red Knight (who is also heavily lawful in nature), you might find succor and peace with the Heresy of the Risen Sun, and Amunator's faith? It seems like an ideal place for this character, who is in somewhat of a crisis of faith, to fall. :smallwink: Think about it.

As a note about Kelemvor, current god of the dead and the Wall of the Faithless. That wall is reserved for two people: the faithless, who die without venerating a god; and the betrayers, who betray their god's gifts. You have done neither, since you are trying to unify the two loves you feel, one for Lathander and one for the Red Knight. You're fine, don't fear for the Wall of the Faithless. Also, to the comment "his decisions are more fair than his predecessors", you're right about Myrkul and Cyric, that's true. BUT, Kelemvor is more prone to taking sides and action that Jergal ever has been, given Jergal's nature after all.

EDIT: I'm big on Realms faiths, if you couldn't tell.

Coidzor
2009-12-24, 10:46 PM
As for your situation... OP... It shouldn't really matter all that much. One could treat it like a new deity/pantheon one is worshiping where basically one can repick one's domains such that either a. all of the domains they both offer are available or b. all of the domains from the two gods are available but only one domain per god's offerings. Probably need to be either whatever alignment the two blended are, or within one step of both of them or one step of whatever alignment one gets when combining them.

Or just do it as changing to Lathander for mechanics and doing the rest in terms of roleplaying it out.


In the FR you need to worship a god (unless you aren't humanoid, possibly, not sure how that works for groups with their own death god such as dragons) or this guy called Kelemvor Lyonsbane who makes a wall out of the souls of people who aren't taken into a god's afterlife will make you another brick in the wall (it's about as bad as it sounds like, for some reason this guy is LN).

The afterlife is always a wash though... Unless one is well liked enough by one's patron deity for them to pay to get one remade in some semblance of one's former asskicking glory. And even then, one still sucks compared to what one was, and is basically stuck there as a lackey. If one isn't well-liked enough the deity either doesn't bother with 'em or they're stuck as a memoryless sycophantic toady with less substance than a ghost.

Undeath makes one stagnate and go crazy and have even worse things happen once one is inevitably destroyed.

Not having a patron means one wastes away into nothingness, gets yoinked by the alignmental planes and basically forced by them to become one with the plane in a variety of methods, or gets jacked by the fiends to be forced to become one of them or used as fuel by them. Kelemvor's wall basically falls somewhere inbetween wasting away into nothingness/getting eaten on the astral plane by soul-eating predators and being torn into pieces by the lower planes and extruded as fiendish grubs in terms of bad things. The fiends of course have to make things hurt even more than just being on the plane as it messes with the soul just by the soul being in proximity to it, so that's unpleasant as a matter of course.

And Eberron is about as bad, where you just basically forget everything after enduring a no-exit-like existence where you're stuck with people you don't wanna be stuck with, unable to leave their proximity, and forced to listen to every time someone mentions you until you forget everything long after you personally are forgotten. Then you become either stone that the new souls get laid upon or your soul melds with the plane. The gods don't even have a place for their clerics, much less the laity, which all helps shed doubt on the existence of Eberronian deities.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:37 AM
...(in depth discussion of realm religion)...
EDIT: I'm big on Realms faiths, if you couldn't tell.

Say... what do you think of the game NWN2: mask of the betrayer?

Kol Korran
2009-12-25, 03:36 AM
hey, thanks for all the replies folks! this does helps a lot.
i think i am coming to a few conclusions/ clarifications:
1) i worship the two gods. as my DM and i have agreed, there is a temporal alliance between them, and i am sort of their tool. this also means however, that once the objective is reached, the alliance breaks off... would be quite a problem having a faith of two merged doctrines that no longer hold together. i think that by that time i will have to choose which god i believe in. so this is a temporary situation, and my cleric will have to come and realise it. how will he deal with that? interesting... i believe i'll return to worshiping the Red Knight, but maybe Lathander will prove mroe enticing? something to think about.

2) in the meantime, i do draw power from both gods. perhaps i should have explained- i get the war domain from the Red Knight, and the sun doman from Lathander. i've researched a spell that kind of combines aspects of both gods. i wonder if that spell will become inactive when the gods stop their alliance.

3) i now understands better why the population considers this heresy. cool. i like friction.


originally by taltamir
builders were put off? why are you using builders?

get your party's wizard a few low level scrolls like move earth and shape stone. have him scribe them into his spellbook...

he can now prepare a bunch of them and practically build a castle in a single day. for free

first of all, move earth is a 6th level spell, and we're not at that level yet. also stone shape gives only crude forms, hardly what you'd want for a temple.

more importently though- i was thinking more or less in the scope of how the world normally works for this one.

again, people- thanks for all the help!
Kol.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 03:44 AM
Stone shape gives "crude" as in... if you make hinges out of it, there is a 30% chance that the hinges will be fused solid, and 70% chance that the hinges work... thats not very crude...

you are right about move earth; I was probably thinking of another spell...
But there are a ton of other spells useable in construction.