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UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 11:43 AM
Let me start this off by saying that I barely know or understand any iteration of World of Darkness. All that I know can be summed up in a few sentences, which may be filled with incorrect information:
-Every race has a karma meter
-Every race has its own book
-Every race has several subraces, each with their own book
-The game is d6-based
The GM is called The Storyteller
-There are tons of minor skills and powers which require some GM-interpretation
-You do more damage if you give a good description

That said, how would one create a game that has the exact opposite feel of World of Darkness? I figure it would be a game whose rules fit on one side of a sheet of paper and everyone is a normal human. I don't have anything against WoD, I just want to see what someone could come up with.


I want to make a game that is the opposite of has the least possible amount of similarities with World of Darkness (while still remaining a tabletop RPG) because I want to see the assumptions that people put into that system and would like to know if such a system is even playable.

Everyone keeps telling me "use WoD", but that's not the point. I don't care if the resulting game is dull, I just want to see what it looks like. This is a thought experiment, not a "What should my group play?" thread. Please do not suggest other systems.

Edit:
Edits in italics.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 11:45 AM
That last one is Exalted, not WoD.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-24, 11:47 AM
That last one is Exalted, not WoD.

Same goes for Scion, too.

It looks like you may want to check out the Hunter series of WoD, since it basically pits relatively normal humans against what goes bump in the night.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 11:53 AM
-The game is d6-based


d10-based, actually. :smallbiggrin:


That said, how would one create a game that has the exact opposite feel of World of Darkness? I figure it would be a game whose rules fit on one side of a sheet of paper and everyone is a normal human. I don't have anything against WoD, I just want to see what someone could come up with.

Well, the feel isn't from the mechanics, which are actually quite nice to play with, in my experience. The opposite feel would come from the world concept, not the mechanics: WoD mechanics can flow nicely into anything, and, if you want, can be simplified with a bit of Storyteller creativity to pretty much fit on a single page...that's why I love the system.

But the system is pretty normal by itself...you're really looking to change the world, I think.

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 11:58 AM
I figure that the setting is just a bunch of normal people in a normal world just trying to get on with their lives. A difficult challenge would be trying to convince your boss at the Monstro-mart to give you a real promotion and not one of those promotions without a pay raise. A combat challenge would be trying not to get mugged.

I know almost nothing about the mechanics, that's why I'm asking for help.

And I'm well aware of Hunter, I don't want Hunter.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:00 PM
Well, everything else fits nicely in. Take a look through the WoD core rules book, and you'll find all the rules for building a normal human. The mechanics are solid and fun, so I see no reason to change them.

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 12:06 PM
I don't want to use their mechanics.

I just want to make a system that's geared entirely to humans, makes no assumptions that anything non-human (except for animals) or non-mundane exists, and isn't actually WoD.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-24, 12:08 PM
I don't want to use their mechanics.

I just want to make a system that's geared entirely to humans, makes no assumptions that anything non-human (except for animals) or non-mundane exists, and isn't actually WoD.

Have you considering Best Friends? (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/bestfriends/)

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 12:11 PM
I don't want to use their mechanics.

I just want to make a system that's geared entirely to humans, makes no assumptions that anything non-human (except for animals) or non-mundane exists, and isn't actually WoD.

This sounds... dull.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:15 PM
I don't want to use their mechanics.

I just want to make a system that's geared entirely to humans, makes no assumptions that anything non-human (except for animals) or non-mundane exists, and isn't actually WoD.

Then why even mention World of Darkness? It's possibly the easiest system to convert to something like what you mentioned (i.e. just cut out all the supernatural stuff and you have a perfectly functional human-only system), and I'm not sure why you'd change a winning formula.

That said, if what I quoted is what you meant, seems it would have been easier to state that at the outset rather than bring WoD into it, as your statement is very different from an "anti-World of Darkness" system.

Honestly, any system currently in existence could work well for something like that with a little tweaking. You'll need to be more specific about your design goals if you intend to make a system from scratch.

Edge
2009-12-24, 12:16 PM
I just want to make a system that's geared entirely to humans, makes no assumptions that anything non-human (except for animals) or non-mundane exists, and isn't actually WoD.

Get rid of a couple of Merits, such and Unseen Sense, and the system fits perfectly. The rules for supernatural characters aren't in the core rulebook, but in each of their own core books. The World of Darkness core rulebook just has rules for normal, everyday human characters and ghost antagonists.

Have to agree though, a "real-life" RP system sounds rather dull.

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 12:21 PM
It's difficult for me to express my ideas. Let me start over.

I want to make a game that is the opposite of World of Darkness because I want to see the assumptions that people put into that system. One of the major assumptions is that there are supernatural entities. So, I want to see what a game without them would work without the whole cinema feel (Feng Shui, d20 modern), and in the modern age.

Everyone keeps telling me "use WoD", but that's not the point. I don't care if the resulting game is dull, I just want to see what it looks like.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-12-24, 12:23 PM
-Every race has several subraces, each with their own bookThis "each with their own book" is untrue (more or less) in New World of Darkness, although it was true in the older version.

So you want a modern game with no supernatural elements whatsoever, then?

Leaving aside the fact that NWoD can be easily run with no supernatural stuff or karma meters, has no inherent flavoring in the rules, and can in fact easily have a character written out on a single sheet of paper (especially a mortal), I guess what you want is a system pretty much entirely based on skill usages. Possibly a rules-lite system where each character makes up their own skills like "grocery-bagging", "credit card fraud", or "complaining about the government" and assigns a rank in those skills based on a number of starting points. Obviously skill conception is overseen by the GM so that people don't give themselves skills like "winning". Each point can be added to a basic roll, or each can represent another die to roll and add up. Maybe add in some base attributes to add something to each of your dice rolls as appropriate.

Also I really want to know why you're dismissing a system out of hand when you don't know anything about it. It seems shortsighted.

EDIT: okay, apparently this post entirely missed the point. Because the point just got ninja'd on me.

I think that by seeing what people tell you to take out of the World of Darkness, though, you can tell what people normally put into it. This thread already contains a fair goldmine of information in that regard. Moreover, it would have been a lot simpler to just ask us to describe the World of Darkness for you rather than going about it in an almost literally ass-backwards fashion.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:28 PM
It's difficult for me to express my ideas. Let me start over.

I want to make a game that is the opposite of World of Darkness because I want to see the assumptions that people put into that system. One of the major assumptions is that there are supernatural entities. So, I want to see what a game without them would work without the whole cinema feel (Feng Shui, d20 modern), and in the modern age.

Everyone keeps telling me "use WoD", but that's not the point. I don't care if the resulting game is dull, I just want to see what it looks like.

Problem is that it's impossible to have the "opposite" of a system. I guess we could say that you roll the opposite of a d10, but that makes little to no sense. D&D is just as much the opposite of WoD as Amber, or Wushu, or the Window, or Deadlands...there's no way to quantify "opposite" when applied to a game system.

Personally, I don't assume the supernatural with WoD...I assume a system, which I've used for human-only games, action/adventure, horror games, Scion, Exalted, and the WoD games themselves. I appreciate that that's not what you want here, but I can't figure out what the "opposite of a system" thing means.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-12-24, 12:30 PM
Using NWoD for Exalted or Scion actually sounds like a really good way to clean up the nasty ugly mess that is Exalted/Scion game mechanics (I want to play Exalted, I just...argh).

It seems like it'd be a lot of work to reinvent all the charms/knacks/powers, though.

charl
2009-12-24, 12:31 PM
Leaving aside the fact that NWoD can be easily run with no supernatural stuff or karma meters, has no inherent flavoring in the rules, and can in fact easily have a character written out on a single sheet of paper (especially a mortal), I guess what you want is a system pretty much entirely based on skill usages. Possibly a rules-lite system where each character makes up their own skills like "grocery-bagging", "credit card fraud", or "complaining about the government" and assigns a rank in those skills based on a number of starting points. Obviously skill conception is overseen by the GM so that people don't give themselves skills like "winning". Each point can be added to a basic roll, or each can represent another die to roll and add up. Maybe add in some base attributes to add something to each of your dice rolls as appropriate.

This would pretty much be Fudge, or Fate (which is based on Fudge). Any really generic system (setting aside the fact that WoD actually is a pretty damn generic system) would work for this. I wouldn't suggest GURPS because OP wanted a system with few rules and books. I would really suggest Fudge. It is rules-light, free, based entirely on user-created skills and optionally generic attributes (which are also user-created), and it can easily be played with no supernatural elements at all.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:31 PM
Using NWoD for Exalted or Scion actually sounds like a really good way to clean up the nasty ugly mess that is Exalted/Scion game mechanics (I want to play Exalted, I just...argh).

It seems like it'd be a lot of work to reinvent all the charms/knacks/powers, though.

Actually, it doesn't take that much work. The core mechanics are similar enough that a bit of tweaking can settle the differences nicely.

Admittedly, it works better for Scion than for Exalted, but that's because Exalted is CRAZY.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-12-24, 12:33 PM
Yeah actually I was just describing Fudge (or a variant of it I played once on these forums).

I suck at game design.

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 12:34 PM
I think that by seeing what people tell you to take out of the World of Darkness, though, you can tell what people normally put into it. This thread already contains a fair goldmine of information in that regard. Moreover, it would have been a lot simpler to just ask us to describe the World of Darkness for you rather than going about it in an almost literally ass-backwards fashion.I also wanted to see if such a game would be playable. However, getting bogged down with having to explain myself has made it so that ambition should be thrown out.

My problems with communication are pretty much the reason I get A's on English tests but fail essays.

So yeah, Fudge... and I've actually heard of Fudge. I'm reinventing the wheel, aren't I?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:38 PM
So yeah, Fudge... and I've actually heard of Fudge. I'm reinventing the wheel, aren't I?

Yep. You can use practically any game system for what you have in mind, but Fudge or the Window would both be what you seem to be looking for...

Nerd-o-rama
2009-12-24, 12:38 PM
Take a class on rhetoric or speech maybe? Or get an English teacher who will actually tell you how to set a clear thesis and support it.

And for the most part, the gaming industry is robust enough that you're going to be reinventing the wheel anywhere, unless you're designing a super-niche game centered around baking and cooking, or something.

Actually...Iron Chef RPG would be pretty awesome...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:39 PM
Actually...Iron Chef RPG would be pretty awesome...

FULL CONTACT HIBACHI! TO THE DEATH!

Ladorak
2009-12-24, 12:39 PM
It's difficult for me to express my ideas. Let me start over.

I want to make a game that is the opposite of World of Darkness because I want to see the assumptions that people put into that system.

Your thought experiment is to create something that is the exact polar opposite of something you know nothing about?

That's deep man.

Let's see... The exact opposite of WoD will have:

Very little fluff, that is poorly detailed. The 'cosmology/mythology' is clearly defined
An easy to use, easy to understand game system
Not use D10s... At all
No ending

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 12:46 PM
Your thought experiment is to create something that is the exact polar opposite of something you know nothing about?

That's deep man.

Let's see... The exact opposite of WoD will have:

Very little fluff, that is poorly detailed. The 'cosmology/mythology' is clearly defined
An easy to use, easy to understand game system
Not use D10s... At all
No endingWell, that's why I asked for help. What you said was about as far as I got before I got distracted by video games. Except I didn't know what dice to use.


Actually...Iron Chef RPG would be pretty awesome...Agreed.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-24, 12:48 PM
Very little fluff, that is poorly detailed. The 'cosmology/mythology' is clearly defined
An easy difficult to use, easy to understand game system
Not use D10s... At all
No ending

Fixed it for you.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "no ending", but the opposite of WoD will have a rule that prevents anyone from being paranoid and dying.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:48 PM
The Window (http://www.mimgames.com/window/)

Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/fudge.html)

Either of those look good to you?

Project_Mayhem
2009-12-24, 12:49 PM
there's no way to quantify "opposite" when applied to a game system.

Brighthammer disagrees

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-24, 12:51 PM
Brighthammer disagrees

That looks like a fluff difference to me. Changing the world doesn't change the system.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-12-24, 12:52 PM
Your thought experiment is to create something that is the exact polar opposite of something you know nothing about?

That's deep man.

Let's see... The exact opposite of WoD will have:

Very little fluff, that is poorly detailed. The 'cosmology/mythology' is clearly defined
An easy to use, easy to understand game system
Not use D10s... At all
No endingExcept for not using d10's, you uh. Just described New World of Darkness.

Well okay, there's still a lot of detailed cosmology/mythology, but it's much more reasonable than OWoD

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 12:52 PM
The Window (http://www.mimgames.com/window/)

Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/fudge.html)

Either of those look good to you?Never heard of the first one. It looks ok.

I'm not actually looking for a pre-existing system though, I just want to know what such a system would be like.

Project_Mayhem
2009-12-24, 12:53 PM
That looks like a fluff difference to me. Changing the world doesn't change the system.

Aah true - misread that, sorry

Glimbur
2009-12-24, 01:09 PM
You clearly need more of the Wuthering Heights Roleplay (http://www.unseelie.org/rpg/wh/index.html) system. Very rules light, almost irritatingly so. Everyone gets 2-5 problems from a table. You also get Rage, Despair, and Oldness. That's it. Go role-play.

I tend to get more character deaths in this system than any other system I have run in, but that's more a symptom of the players I get and how I run the game than an indictment of the system itself.

Kris Strife
2009-12-24, 01:24 PM
What you should do is have your players roll up characters in a standard D&D, WoD, etc setting, then have those characters roll up characters that are modern day, mundane office workers.

erikun
2009-12-24, 02:30 PM
I want to make a game that is the opposite of has the least possible amount of similarities with World of Darkness (while still remaining a tabletop RPG) because I want to see the assumptions that people put into that system and would like to know if such a system is even playable.
I have to agree with others, what you're asking for is quite vague. It's also been done before, multiple times, depending on what you consider the "World of Darkness" system to actually be. I mean, "basic humans with a non-skill based dice pool" can probably be run with 90% of the existing systems.

As I understand it, you are looking for:

a system that is not skill based
a system that does not use dice pools
a system that does not (primarily) use d10
a system that only uses humans
a "slice of life" setting (ie. no fantasy)
a system contained in a single book (simple for homebrew)

With that, then, allow me to present an amalgam of several different systems I've created made up in my head over the years.


Random Number Generation

To begin the session, find a full deck of cards and remove the Jokers. This should give you a 52 card deck, good enough for around 4 players. If you have more players at your table, add another 52 card deck for each additional 4 players.

Shuffle the cards, then deal out 3 cards to each player. The GM doesn't get a hand.

For challanges, a player draws one card from the deck, then chooses one card in their hand to play. They must play a card - they cannot choose to "automatically fail" to keep an extra card. After the player has played a card, the GM flips over the next card on the deck for the difficulty. The card which is higher (player or GM) wins the challange. If the GM just needs to randomly determine something, they simply flip the top card on the deck.

There are a few variant rules to playing the cards:

1. Ace can count as either 13 or 1. If counted as a 1, the player may draw and play one additional card from the deck. The two cards are totaled together.

2. The player may, with any challange, play an additional card from their hand. Doing so permanently reduces their hand size for the duration of the session. The two cards are then totaled together.

Once the deck has been halfway depleted, the GM shuffles the discard pile back into the deck. The players keep any cards in their hands.

Traits

Each character has a number of traits, defining what they are good at. Examples include "Racecar Drivng," "Despensing Soft-Serve Ice Cream," and so on. Such traits may include specific items and locations, such as "My Rapier" or "Downtown Mall". Traits indicate an unusual level of aptitude reguarding the particular action or location.

Traits come into play during challanges. Whenever a challange relates to one of the traits, the character may apply a +1 bonus to the card they play during that challange. This bonus applies for each trait which can apply. If the above character needed to drive a racecar through the downtown mall, steering it with their rapier while despensing soft-serve ice cream, then they would apply a +4 bonus to all challanges while they were doing so.

It is up to the GM to prevent players from selecting Traits which are to prevalent in the setting.

Endurance is the measure of how long a character can withstand life's vigors. When they run out of Endurance, they can no longer participate meaningfully in any challange. (Although they can still move around and do non-challange related things.)

Gameplay

Each session begins with the deck being shuffles and each player being dealt three cards. Gameplay proceeds with each character going throughout their day, facing the rigors of the modern day.

Any time the characters encounter something obstructing them (either in a physical delay or timely delay), they may choose to overcome the obstacle with a challange. In doing so, they state to the GM how they wish to overcome the challange and apply whatever traits are appropriate. (The player is responsible for attempting to apply the traits to the situation.) The GM determines the result based on if the challange is successful, and the reactions of NPCs. While running out of a supermarket without paying may be successful, it may not have the best consequences...

Certain NPCs or challanges may have traits of their own, to represent difficulty bypassing. A locked door may have the traits "resistance to being kicked in" and "sturdy", making it difficult to simply bash the door it.

Characters continue until their day is over or they run out of Endurance, in which case they need a nap.

Now, this isn't meant to be entirely serious. I'm sure that FUDGE is closer to what you're looking for than this, especially considering that this way typed up in about 15 minutes. The point, however, is that "anti-WoD" is an incredibly vague request and can encompass numerous, vastly different systems. It wouldn't be hard to go through a checklist and create a system that "is not WoD", but the end result may not be anything you actually want to use.

Ladorak
2009-12-24, 05:05 PM
Fixed it for you.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "no ending", but the opposite of WoD will have a rule that prevents anyone from being paranoid and dying.

I was refering to the fact the the old world of darkness... You know, ended. And I'm sorry, but the WoD system is not easy, nor is it fun.

I roll to hit: Add two stats together. Roll a number of dice equal to the total of those two stats.
Count the ones over six, minus one from the total for any ones rolled. 10s cancel ones
I roll damage: Roll a number of dice equal to however many successes you rolled, plus an additional number per your weapon used, plus an additional number from yet another stat.
Count the ones over six, minus one from the total for any ones rolled. 10s cancel ones
Now he soaks damage, rolling a number of dice equal to yet another stat.
Count the ones over six, minus one from the total for any ones rolled. 10s cancel ones
The sum total of your damage roll is reduced by the number of successes rolled. That number is reduced from his health levels.

Well done, you just punched a guy... Once.

And if you want to make more than one action a turn... Or use powers (Don't get me started on Mage mechanics) Well... It doesn't get any easier.
Except for not using d10's, you uh. Just described New World of Darkness.

Well okay, there's still a lot of detailed cosmology/mythology, but it's much more reasonable than OWoD

Actually the fluff of WoDs was about the only thing I really liked about it. Mage had so much potential, the Technocracy is badass, I always envisioned it to being Neo in the first Matrix movie. Powerful yes... But always running... Because the whole damn world is out to get you.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-24, 05:58 PM
I was refering to the fact the the old world of darkness... You know, ended. And I'm sorry, but the WoD system is not easy, nor is it fun.

It's plenty easy and fun. It's just... complex. Also, the total of those rolls take like half a minute, so like 8 seconds per roll. How much in a hurry are you?

It's not easy to understand, but it's easy to use once you get past the understanding part.

((And while technically not WoD, Exalted did get rid of the soak and defense rolls, which was nice of White Wolf.))

Ladorak
2009-12-24, 06:11 PM
It's plenty easy and fun.

You've never played Mage have you?

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 06:21 PM
You've never played Mage have you?

Mage is the most of of all their games...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 06:21 PM
You've never played Mage have you?

Mage is plenty easy and fun.

Awakening, that is. Ascension is... yeah.

Ladorak
2009-12-24, 06:41 PM
Mage is plenty easy and fun.

Awakening, that is. Ascension is... yeah.

That's the one I'm refering too... It's really a pity too, because as I said earlier... It had so much potential.

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 06:57 PM
@Ladorak: For future reference, the system you're referring to is ancient history, for the most part.

The Storytelling system used in nWoD is a massive improvement on Storyteller (as used in Exalted, Scion, and oWoD). It has bugs, and combat might have been simplified more than it should be, but it's probably one of the best systems out there right now.

In fact, mechanically, the most obvious anti-WoD game is FATAL.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-24, 07:06 PM
The Storytelling system used in nWoD is a massive improvement on Storyteller (as used in Exalted, Scion, and oWoD).

Oh gods yes. I'm not arguing that. In fact, I'm still waiting for a Third Edition of Exalted that uses Storytelling rules, instead of Storyteller, as a base.

However, I've never had any difficulty with classic World of Darkness past the adaptation stage.

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 07:16 PM
Oh gods yes. I'm not arguing that. In fact, I'm still waiting for a Third Edition of Exalted that uses Storytelling rules, instead of Storyteller, as a base.

However, I've never had any difficulty with classic World of Darkness past the adaptation stage.

I really want to see a Storytelling Exalted as well. I even considered homebrewing one.

There are a few problems - obviously combat would have to be modified. Charms would be interesting to handle while remaining consistent with normal Storytelling rules for supernatural effects, but shouldn't be too difficult to deal with. Either every type of supernatural being picks up a couple of extra traits (hardly a problem), or you don't worry too much about remaining consistent. Either method works.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-12-24, 07:59 PM
Yeah...Ladorak, all of your complaints are completed valid. In Old World of Darkness (and Scion, and Exalted). It's a crazily-complex system, although not without its merits.

New World of Darkness is exceptionally streamlined and easy. It's also in my opinion quite fun.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 08:06 PM
I know a game that
Lacks a Karma meter, is one book and does not relie on d6...






FATAL




Sorry.

erikun
2009-12-24, 08:07 PM
Oh gods yes. I'm not arguing that. In fact, I'm still waiting for a Third Edition of Exalted that uses Storytelling rules, instead of Storyteller, as a base.
Is this something that is going to happen, or is it just speculation/wish fulfillment? Because one of the reasons I've avoided Exalted is that it runs off the older Storyteller system. (Scion looks like it can be run off the newer Storytelling system without too much difficulty. I know that's what I would try if I ever started a Scion game.)

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 08:11 PM
I know a game that
Lacks a Karma meter, is one book and does not relie on d6...






FATAL




Sorry.

It does, however, entirely rely on rolling ludicrous numbers of d10s.

The Demented One
2009-12-24, 08:28 PM
Exalted's heroic mortal rules in a modern day setting, preserving the core epic, heroic theme of Exalted. If it touches a WoD game, they would both explode.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-25, 01:03 AM
Is this something that is going to happen, or is it just speculation/wish fulfillment? Because one of the reasons I've avoided Exalted is that it runs off the older Storyteller system. (Scion looks like it can be run off the newer Storytelling system without too much difficulty. I know that's what I would try if I ever started a Scion game.)

It's not gonna happen anytime soon, due to the current supplements for Exalted that are scheduled for release.

Siegel
2009-12-25, 05:19 AM
GURPS ? could work

charl
2009-12-25, 02:09 PM
GURPS ? could work

Too many rules. OP asked for a light system, which GURPS is the opposite of.