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ChakraChanter
2009-12-24, 02:11 PM
So I've always wanted to play this class, but I've never really tried divine spellcasting, let alone preparing spells so this seemed rather perfect. I've always been a blaster with other classes, though I'm not sure if you can do that with divine magic.

Assume 32-point build @ Level 20. All book sources. Try to avoid cheese:smallamused:
Thanks for the help

Edit: After a little research, from what I've read, it seems everyone agrees this class is gamebreaking, but I do not want to discuss that.

Hunter Noventa
2009-12-24, 02:19 PM
There's defintiely not as much blasting in Divine magic. They only get a handful of direct damage spells, but they are some decent ones.

The biggest weaknesses of the Favored Soul are the inability to spontaneously cure, and a lack of turning ability. This means you can't use DMM cheese at all, and that you actually have to waste your precious slots on healing spells, assuming youdon't have someone else in the party who can fill that role.

If you don't have to be the healer, one or two such spells is still proably a good idea. However,t he Favored Soul is a bit better at combat, even though the free weapon focus is kinda meh, you do get access to lovely things like Divine Power and Bull'S Strength and the like. If you focus on collecting buff spells and use them on yourself and allies, you'll likely bring a larger overall increase in effectiveness than with just blasting.

FYI, I have never played a favored soul, I'm only regurgitating what I've read here and elsewhere.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 02:26 PM
So I've always wanted to play this class, but I've never really tried divine spellcasting, let alone preparing spells so this seemed rather perfect. I've always been a blaster with other classes, though I'm not sure if you can do that with divine magic.

Assume 32-point build @ Level 20. All book sources. Try to avoid cheese:smallamused:
Thanks for the help

Edit: After a little research, from what I've read, it seems everyone agrees this class is gamebreaking, but I do not want to discuss that.

It is as much a game breaker as the Cleric, but on a smaller scale (like Sor to Wiz, but Divine).

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:27 PM
problem with a favored soul, is that like the sorcerer their casting is 1 level behind... And they have very few spells known.

CL = caster level
SL = spell level

for clerics, the max SL they can cast is CL+1/2, rounded down.
for favored souls it is CL/2, rounded up at level 1, rounded down at all others.

The very short list of spells known hurts a lot too. And no DMM, etc... I don't know why anyone would say they are better than regular clerics.

As for game breaking... all full casters, even the weaker full casters, can break the game.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-24, 02:30 PM
There's defintiely not as much blasting in Divine magic. They only get a handful of direct damage spells, but they are some decent ones.

The biggest weaknesses of the Favored Soul are the inability to spontaneously cure, and a lack of turning ability. This means you can't use DMM cheese at all, and that you actually have to waste your precious slots on healing spells, assuming youdon't have someone else in the party who can fill that role.

If you don't have to be the healer, one or two such spells is still proably a good idea. However,t he Favored Soul is a bit better at combat, even though the free weapon focus is kinda meh, you do get access to lovely things like Divine Power and Bull'S Strength and the like. If you focus on collecting buff spells and use them on yourself and allies, you'll likely bring a larger overall increase in effectiveness than with just blasting.

FYI, I have never played a favored soul, I'm only regurgitating what I've read here and elsewhere.

If favored souls cast of Cha, then what if you give them one level in Cleric?, or 4 levels in Prestige Paladin?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 02:32 PM
Because the Favored Soul doesn't have all the goodies that Clerics get (domains, full access to divine spells, undead turning), optimization needs to focus on what the FS gets instead. The free weapon feats are one area in which you can optimize. Choosing to worship Kossuth (a Forgotten Realms deity) can get you

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)

ChakraChanter
2009-12-24, 02:35 PM
problem with a favored soul, is that like the sorcerer their casting is 1 level behind... And they have very few spells known. The very short list of spells known hurts a lot too. And no DMM, etc... I don't know why anyone would say they are better than regular clerics.

DM won't allow Tier 1 classes

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 02:39 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention another optimization: race. The best choice for most Favored Souls is Lesser Aasimar (Player's Guide to FaerŻn, page 191): LA +0, with +2 to both WIS and CHA -- just the stats you need.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:39 PM
If favored souls cast of Cha, then what if you give them one level in Cleric?, or 4 levels in Prestige Paladin?

favored souls are different than other cha casters, in that some of their casting ability is keyed off of their wisdom, and some off of cha.


To cast a spell, a favored soul must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spellís level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a favored soulís spell is 10 + the spellís level + the favored soulís Wisdom modifier.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-24, 02:42 PM
favored souls are different than other cha casters, in that some of their casting ability is keyed off of their wisdom, and some off of cha.

Well Charisma determines the level of spells they can cast, and the amount of bonus spells. So add a level 1 cleric and you can turn 3+Cha/day. Can you do that and would that help in contributing to DMM?


Oh, I forgot to mention another optimization: race. The best choice for most Favored Souls is Lesser Aasimar (Player's Guide to FaerŻn, page 191): LA +0, with +2 to both WIS and CHA -- just the stats you need.What are the minuses to that race? (-2 Dex, etc)

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:43 PM
Well Charisma determines the level of spells they can cast, and the amount of bonus spells. So add a level 1 cleric and you can turn 3+Cha/day. Can you do that and would that help in contributing to DMM?

it will not help in the least...
Aside from there being feats that give you tons of turns (also a waste), you simple (ab)use nightsticks to get as many as you want.

although, to be fair most DMs ban it... still, the CHA contribution to a cleric is minimal and contributes entirely to things that are not available to the favored soul (like, turning)...

While the cleric can benefit from starting with a decent cha, say 14...
The favored soul on the other hand, has to pump up his wisdom throughout his career to keep up with the increasing saves of opponents... Which is impossible to do to multiple stats... so he will only pump cha and have sub par wisdom (and as a result, crap saves).
Frankly I wouldn't bother, just do not use any spell that requires a save with a favored soul, period.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 02:44 PM
Favored Soul is best as support/healbot. Trying to use offensive magic with them is very difficult due to the MAD. They need CHA to learn spells and bonus spells, but save DCs are based on WIS.

Shugenja are more of the "sorcerer cleric" - however, with a much smaller spell list they are considered weaker.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:45 PM
Favored Soul is best as support/healbot. Trying to use offensive magic with them is very difficult due to the MAD. They need WIS to learn spells and bonus spells, but save DCs are based on CHA.

Shugenja are more of the "sorcerer cleric" - however, with a much smaller spell list they are considered weaker.

other way around, they need cha to learn and cast spells, the saves are based on wisdom.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-24, 02:48 PM
If I could convince the DM to allow the Favored Soul to be only Cha dependent, would that make it better, or would that create chaos?

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 02:48 PM
other way around, they need cha to learn and cast spells, the saves are based on wisdom.

Whoops, thanks. Fixing...


If I could convince the DM to allow the Favored Soul to be only Cha dependent, would that make it better, or would that create chaos?

I'd say it's not game-breaking - although they would then be SAD and spontaneous, they would still have two heavy limitations on them - namely, that they don't have access to the entire cleric list once their spells known are chosen (unlike clerics,) and they are a level behind clerics progression-wise like sorcerers are (for whatever reason WotC thought made sense at the time.)

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 02:53 PM
What are the minuses to that race? (-2 Dex, etc)
None. It's exactly like the standard Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar) except the type is Humanoid (planetouched) instead of Outsider.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 02:57 PM
If I could convince the DM to allow the Favored Soul to be only Cha dependent, would that make it better, or would that create chaos?

it would be nice, it would make spells with saves viable (although still a risky choice because power enemies will resist)... they will still be a lot weaker then clerics.
But then again, since no tier 1 is allowed, they will still be among the most powerful classes in the game (with or without that modification). And will make the poor fighters and other bad tier classes very very sad pandas.


None. It's exactly like the standard Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar) except the type is Humanoid (planetouched) instead of Outsider.

the "downside" is that unlike humans, they do not get 1 extra feat at level 1 and 1 extra skill point per level (4 on first level)

ChakraChanter
2009-12-24, 02:58 PM
Okay. What spells would you guys suggest? (I called the DM and he said he would allow me to be SAD on Cha as long as I don't get out of hand)

Sliver
2009-12-24, 03:12 PM
I always saw them as self buff and melee. I ignored the debuff spells and didn't pump my wisdom, only taking buffs and going melee.. I also only played them in NWN2..

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:50 PM
I always saw them as self buff and melee. I ignored the debuff spells and didn't pump my wisdom, only taking buffs and going melee.. I also only played them in NWN2..

good ideas.. but if his saves are keyed off of cha, he can actually debuff...
question is, would the spell known be worth it?

I would start by looking up some cleric optimization threads since you share its spell list.

Drekk
2009-12-24, 10:08 PM
I've played them and find the class pretty enjoyable...I don't think they need the Cha to Saves (although if the DM allows it, all the better!); with the free Weapon Focus/Spec X, I just play mine as dedicated buffers/warriors, with as many useful, and preferably MASS, spells as I can find. Like Mass Energy Resistance, Delay Death, Panacea, and combat buffs as well, of which clerics excel at. You get a ton of spells known, so it doesn't sting that much to take a few healing spells, say a level-appropriate Cure until you get access to Greater Vigor and Heal (since you can swap out spells known like a Sorcerer does).

Extend (and maybe Chain) Spell are the only Metamagics you need. Heavy Armor Proficiency (plus freedom of movement, of course!) and Weapon Mastery: X for your favored weapon, although the buffs you'll have access to might render this redundant. An additional untyped +2 to hit/dmg is still not too shabby though. And since I'm taking Extend Spell anyways...The one Favored Soul I used in a 16th level game actually used Persistent Spell WITHOUT DIVINE METAMAGIC?!?! Divine Favor 24/7 is just that good...

erikun
2009-12-24, 10:17 PM
Best debuff spells? Probably Bestow Curse, Blade Barrier, Prayer, and Holy Word. Note that the last two don't allow a saving throw, and the middle two are handy even as utility/buff spells.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-24, 11:50 PM
Any other spells that you guys suggest? Is there a list already written that suggests what divine spells to take?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-24, 11:59 PM
1 level of Contemplative will get you turning. (Available at level 6)

Good spells are the same as cleric. If you want to go a more healbot route, go for the cure spells and the Status removers. Remove Curse, Restoration, Neutralize Poison, etc.

If you want to go a more martial route, take any of the good spells from the CoDzilla threads.

Saves are keyed off of wisdom, and Bonus spells/Max spell level is off charisma, making it a bit problematic to go after save or X spells.

I tend to like buff with a side of healing, myself.

Stat Recommendations (for buff/heal):
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 18

taltamir
2009-12-25, 12:04 AM
why do one or the other? take a few healing spells, some buffs, etc... take the good / essential spells each level.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 12:09 AM
why do one or the other? take a few healing spells, some buffs, etc... take the good / essential spells each level.


I tend to like buff with a side of healing, myself.

Indeed. Why not.

Ernir
2009-12-25, 08:48 AM
1 level of Contemplative will get you turning. (Available at level 6)

Contemplative requires 13 ranks in Knowledge: Religion, and does not grant turning. :smallconfused:

PrC qualification as a FS is... problematic. No turning, no domains, and "wrong" skills when compared to the Cleric, which most of the divine PrCs are designed for.
At least this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) can get you Knowledge: Religion as a class skill. Still a PitA. Good luck.

Drekk
2009-12-25, 11:27 AM
I'd say most of the solid Cleric Buffs and Utility Spells are great for a FS as well.

Greater Dispelling, Heal, Holy Word (offensive, but cmon..) Recitation, Divine Power/Favor, Greater Vigor, Mass Resist Energy, Panacea, Updraft, Sign, Delay Death, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, Freedom of Movement, Superior Resistance, Life's Grace, Zone of Revelation, Mass Spell Resistance (the FS has a much easier time casting these spells on the entire party thanks to sorcerous casting)...Just grab the PHB/Spell Compendium, and choose! Harm isn't too shabby either, even though it offers a save.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-25, 11:34 AM
Contemplative requires 13 ranks in Knowledge: Religion, and does not grant turning. :smallconfused:

PrC qualification as a FS is... problematic. No turning, no domains, and "wrong" skills when compared to the Cleric, which most of the divine PrCs are designed for.
At least this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) can get you Knowledge: Religion as a class skill. Still a PitA. Good luck.

Maybe he meant Sacred Exorcist? That grants turning.

Contemplative is a good choice once you qualify though - take it and get the Healing domain, then pick up Domain Spontaneity (Healing), so you don't need to prep healing spells anymore. I think it requires turning to use though, so go into Sacred Exorcist too, which you can accomplish by level 8 (Need Dismissal, 4th level spell).

Favored Soul 8/Sacred Exorcist 2/Contemplative 10 for casting, or Favored Soul 8/Sacred Exorcist 1/Favored Soul +1/Contemplative 1/Favored Soul +9 for combat focus.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-25, 06:37 PM
Maybe he meant Sacred Exorcist? That grants turning.
Still won't work at the claimed level (6). Even with a feat like Education to make the Knowledge rank requirements you'd still need 7 prior levels before qualifying for Sacred Exorcist at level 8.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 05:54 AM
Still won't work at the claimed level (6). Even with a feat like Education to make the Knowledge rank requirements you'd still need 7 prior levels before qualifying for Sacred Exorcist at level 8.

Even if that is true (AFB, so I can't verify everything. Silly holidays, and all), that doesn't change the point that a 1 level dip will get you turning as a Favored Soul, opening up DMM.

Or are you going to contest that?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-26, 01:24 PM
Or are you going to contest that?
Why would I contest that? I only contest things that aren't right. A Favored Soul can get undead turning with

Education feat
Good alignment
17 specific skill ranks
1 level of Sacred Exorcist

taltamir
2009-12-26, 03:12 PM
Why would I contest that? I only contest things that aren't right. A Favored Soul can get undead turning with

Education feat
Good alignment
17 specific skill ranks
1 level of Sacred Exorcist


quite an investment for something they should have anyways. I see no reason to take it from a favored soul besides making them even weaker compared to a cleric.

Turning is such a situational ability anyways... its really only useful against undead you could defeat anyways.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 03:16 PM
quite an investment for something they should have anyways. I see no reason to take it from a favored soul besides making them even weaker compared to a cleric.

I agree; they're already denied access to the full list, and have the very arbitrary restriction on casting progression that sorcerers do, yet other spontaneous casters (like Beguilers) don't.


Turning is such a situational ability anyways... its really only useful against undead you could defeat anyways.

Very few optimizers actually use their turning attempts to turn anything.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 03:23 PM
Very few optimizers actually use their turning attempts to turn anything.

true...
the three uses are:
1. Turning things - situational and not very effective tactic. But cool and flavorful, let them have it.
2. Qualifying for PrC - no brainer, they should obviously have it. This seems more like an accidental oversight on the designers part.
3. DMM abuse - Should not be allowed.

So I would say, let them have turning, without allowing DMM use of said turning attempts.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 03:30 PM
DMM "abuse" only happens if you allow Nightsticks. DMM as written is not broken, merely powerful, if you force the turning player to use their own turning attempts (which get burned up quickly, even with Extra Turning.)

taltamir
2009-12-26, 03:36 PM
I agree; they're already denied access to the full list, and have the very arbitrary restriction on casting progression that sorcerers do, yet other spontaneous casters (like Beguilers) don't.

They suffer from MORE than the standard list...
1. they are one level behind on max spell level known, like the sorc
2. they have a very limited amount of spells known, like the sorc
3. their save DCs are not based on their primary stat, unlike the sorc. Sorc saves are based off of the sorc's cha, like their casting. While favored soul's DC is based off of their wisdom.
4. Cha dependant. While int gives you bonus skill points, and wisdom gives a will save. Sure cha gives you a boost to social skills, but will and int give boosts to skills too, and "social skills" are very problematic in actual gameplay, with common nerfs (no you cannot persuade the king to make you the king instead of him!).
5. Their benefits over the sorcerer is the lack of ASF, some armor training, inherant abilities, and better BAB. But the cleric has those too over the wizard... and they are stuck with divine spells instead of arcane ones to compensate...

I never got why wis gives will saves, since wisdom is "common sense" and "intuition" while cha is literally a combination of "willpower" and "beauty". Will power doesn't help your will saves against spells any, neither does intelligence, just your common sense and intuition.

Soranar
2009-12-26, 03:57 PM
How high level do you expect to go?

most people would multiclass at level 12, once you get weapon specialization,

gaining wings and flight at level 17 is nothing to scoff at for a divine caster (bit late but still useful) but the build only gets something really interesting at level 20 (10 DR cold iron or silver) and honestly you can do better than that with a prestige class

lesser Aasimar is really strong with no penalties, doubtful a DM would allow it if he blocks tier 1 classes

as mentioned earlier picking a deity with an exotic weapon is quite good

you can also pick a deity with unarmed strike and merge with a monk prestige class like sacred fist

and for a 2 level dip you can get turn undead from the Holy Monk variant and take practiced spellcaster to gain back all your spellcasting strenght and pick up a Full BAB PrC for a fighterish build or go full caster with something else

ChakraChanter
2009-12-26, 11:13 PM
I would like to have 17 levels in Favor Soul, then unfortunately, that leaves you 3 levels of optimization:smallconfused:

I really want to know what spells you guys suggest. At least two blaster spells, some buffs, and heals are going to be heavily focused on.

The DMM would be nice, but it's frowned upon big time:smallconfused:

Any further suggestions

Ernir
2009-12-27, 04:55 AM
true...
the three uses are:
1. Turning things - situational and not very effective tactic. But cool and flavorful, let them have it.
2. Qualifying for PrC - no brainer, they should obviously have it. This seems more like an accidental oversight on the designers part.
3. DMM abuse - Should not be allowed.

So I would say, let them have turning, without allowing DMM use of said turning attempts.

It powers a bunch of feats, too. Good feats, many of them.

Thurbane
2009-12-27, 08:59 AM
Knight of the Raven is a PrC (admittedly from a fairly obscure and module specific source) that a Favored Soul could slot into at 6th level with no skill or feat prereqs, and it grants (delayed) turning.

Amphetryon
2009-12-27, 09:03 AM
Because DocRoc hasn't posted in this thread yet, I bring you Algernon. Note: there's a good reason the build doesn't flesh out all the way to 20.

Algernon Of The White Lillies
"Everything slips away..."

Much like the joker except that it uses a dragon's blood pool to count himself as an arcane caster. Has to come back every twelve months for another drink or his powers fade. Uses favored soul ACF to add a buff to his spells that adds temporary HP. We can now cast any personal spell on an ally with a touch. Okay, fair enough, so now allies are legal targets. That's terribly important. Most GMs will now let you cast into the tapestry, though they should not. Share spell with your familiar, however, and it becomes a ranged touch, split ray it, and target the tapestry with it to store it as a quiescent weaving. It now satisfies all the requirements for using the tapestry.

Human Favored Soul 4/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/XXXXXXX 6

1) Sanctum Spell, split ray, improved initiative, enlarge spell
3) extend spell
6) Obtain familiar, since we are an arcane caster
9) Persistent Spell
12) DMM: Persist

Thurbane
2009-12-27, 09:18 AM
Favored Soul 6/KotR 10/Sacred Exorcist 4:

BAB +17

Fort +12
Ref +8
Will +15

19th level casting
12th level turning
Energy resistance 10 (1 type)
Raven Harrier (Harry, Baffle, Falter, Channel Spell, Sight Link)
Speak with Ravens
Smite Undead 5/day
Sun domain
Light Focus
Bonus feats: Weapon Focus, Enduring Life, Lasting Life
Burst of Vitality
Exorcism
Resist Possession
Detect Evil
Chosen Foe +1
Dispel Evil 1/week

...not uber, but playable...