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taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:28 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm


Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

This seems to nullify the entire "orb of <energy>" line of spells

ericgrau
2009-12-24, 03:31 PM
And melf's acid arrow. As many things are wrong with the orb of X spells, this one is just splitting hairs.

arguskos
2009-12-24, 03:31 PM
Heh, I remember that conversation Sstoopid and I had last D&D session. :smallbiggrin:

I think the thing we figured out is that the Sonic and Force orbs are still legit, even if the others likely aren't, since sonic's natural environment is the air, and force can exist safely anywhere.

Kylarra
2009-12-24, 03:32 PM
A <spell descriptor> shoots from your palm at its target


A <spell descriptor> springs from your hand and speeds to its target.

One of these is a spell found in the SRD, the other is an orb spell, can you tell the difference?

Regardless, your point is moot, it appears in your hand first and then goes forth propelled magically toward the target.


:p@inb4s

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 03:33 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm



This seems to nullify the entire "orb of <energy>" line of spells

Acid, Cold, and Fire I'll give you, but there's nothing stopping Electricity.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:33 PM
Orbs are neither creatures nor objects. They're spell effects.

Nice try.

Mike_G
2009-12-24, 03:34 PM
Conjuration is kinda grabby.

It does seem to steal a lot of stuff that would make more sense for Evocation or Abjuration.

weenie
2009-12-24, 03:34 PM
Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you...


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.


This seems to nullify the entire "orb of <energy>" line of spells

That's how I see it, hope it is clear enough.

erikun
2009-12-24, 03:34 PM
Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you...

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
It doesn't contradict, because the "orb of <energy>" spells bring energy, not a creature or object. The again, it also implies you could summon an orb of acid into a creature's lungs...

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 03:36 PM
How do you have line of sight/effect to someone's lungs?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:36 PM
It doesn't contradict, because the "orb of <energy>" spells bring energy, not a creature or object. The again, it also implies you could summon an orb of acid into a creature's lungs...

The spell doesn't summon anything. It creates an orb of energy that speeds from your hand to your target.

What is so hard to grasp about this?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:37 PM
It doesn't contradict, because the "orb of <energy>" spells bring energy, not a creature or object. The again, it also implies you could summon an orb of acid into a creature's lungs...

awesome... so in that case I better get on to making a spell that conjures acid in people's blood. Or electricity in their rectum.

Signmaker
2009-12-24, 03:38 PM
awesome... so in that case I better get on to making a spell that conjures acid in people's blood. Or electricity in their rectum.

No LoS or LoE. Nice try.

Fortuna
2009-12-24, 03:39 PM
No LoS or LoE. Nice try.

So I could if I had X-ray vision?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:40 PM
there are spells that don't require LoS or LoE out there...
for example, clairaudience/clairvoyance requires that you be in range, but not that you have LoS or LoE

and ok... acid in his mouth, eyes, and ears.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:40 PM
There are spells that turn creatures' blood to acid - I see no problem in a spell designed to conjure something damaging inside a creature.

Spells designed to do such, of course. And they'd definitely have a Fort save to negate and allow SR.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:41 PM
so... fire elemental is a creature, right?

Zeta Kai
2009-12-24, 03:44 PM
A WIZARD DID IT.


:amused:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:45 PM
so... fire elemental is a creature, right?

A living creature, even!

Sliver
2009-12-24, 03:52 PM
A living creature, even!

Not enough to have a weak spot and be affected by crits..

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:53 PM
Not enough to have a weak spot and be affected by crits..

Same with aberrations.

But elementals are still valid targets for spells that target "living creatures".

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:53 PM
A living creature, even!

does that mean you can make an undead version?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:54 PM
does that mean you can make an undead version?

Yes.

If you can somehow get an elemental corpse. Most (true) elementals don't leave corpses.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:55 PM
aren't there ways to transform a living being into a undead directly, bypassing the corpse stage?

wasn't there this zombie with worms in it that can be used for that?
I am gonna go look it up.

Sliver
2009-12-24, 03:56 PM
That would be awesome.. Do they leave corpses on their natural planes? There must be a way to get skeleton fire elementals!

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:57 PM
That would be awesome.. Do they leave corpses on their natural planes? There must be a way to get skeleton fire elementals!

Fire elementals don't have skeletons - no go there.

Directly turning a living creature into an undead version would work fine, though. As long as it's not a skeleton.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-24, 04:03 PM
Fire elementals don't have skeletons - no go there.

Directly turning a living creature into an undead version would work fine, though. As long as it's not a skeleton.

Doesnˇt the libris mortis have the Necroelemental?
Not sure if it is a template or a creature that can be created thought

Sliver
2009-12-24, 04:12 PM
Fire elementals don't have skeletons - no go there.

... As long as it's not a skeleton.

This makes me sad. I shall retire to bed!

taltamir
2009-12-24, 04:22 PM
wait... it seems like every living creature can be cross bred with others (you can even have half illithid and half beholder...)

and the whole "plane touched" suggests that someone cross bred with an elemental creature.

So... how does one go about getting a fire elemental pregnant?
And would the half -fire elemental children have bones and be raiseable as undead?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 04:24 PM
Not all elementals are living embodiments of their element.

Djinn are fire elementals.

hamishspence
2009-12-24, 04:29 PM
Actually, they are outsiders. As are efreeti. Though efreeti have the fire subtype, they aren't elementals per se.

arguskos
2009-12-24, 04:29 PM
Not all elementals are living embodiments of their element.

Djinn are fire elementals.
...no they aren't (also, Djinn are Air)? They do not possess the Elemental type, and thus aren't air elementals. They are Outsiders with the Air type, meaning they have an innate connection to Air, but they are not elementals by any stretch of the matter.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 04:30 PM
Oh crap, I picked the one that isn't an Elemental. And got the wrong type of genie at that.

Azers? Nope, outsiders too.

Crap, I know there's some...

I'm really not on the ball today.

Doug Lampert
2009-12-24, 04:33 PM
Heh, I remember that conversation Sstoopid and I had last D&D session. :smallbiggrin:

I think the thing we figured out is that the Sonic and Force orbs are still legit, even if the others likely aren't, since sonic's natural environment is the air, and force can exist safely anywhere.

Yeah, but remember, this is non-magical orb of magical force.


Orbs are neither creatures nor objects. They're spell effects.

Nice try.

Oh? If they're spell effects then they should be Magic Resistance: Yes.

Direct spell effects are exactly what MR works on. The excuse for it NOT working on orbs and other conjurations is that you're summoning or creating a real object or energy or whatever and the effect is that of a NONMAGICAL thing, not a spell effect.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 04:41 PM
Effect: One orb of acid.Tencharacters....

taltamir
2009-12-24, 04:53 PM
Not all elementals are living embodiments of their element.

Djinn are fire elementals.

but a fire elemental IS a living being...
So why can't you have a half fire elemental?


Oh? If they're spell effects then they should be Magic Resistance: Yes.

Direct spell effects are exactly what MR works on. The excuse for it NOT working on orbs and other conjurations is that you're summoning or creating a real object or energy or whatever and the effect is that of a NONMAGICAL thing, not a spell effect.

excellent point... they bypass SR because you are summoning physical non magical acid, which you then toss at someone. Acid, is an object... and you just summoned it in the air. It has been a few days since the issue first came up before I actually posted it on this forum, so I forgot that aspect until now.

what I don't understand is, why does this work for the other orb spells (ignore the limitation on conjuration unto a suitable surface for a moment)?
you are summoning non magic fire and toss it at someone? ok...
non magic "sound" and toss it at someone? what?
non magic "force" and toss it at someone? huh?

hamishspence
2009-12-24, 04:56 PM
You can have half-elementals (Manual of the Planes).

Zeful
2009-12-24, 05:01 PM
Regardless, your point is moot, it appears in your hand first and then goes forth propelled magically toward the target.

Actually that would make the Orb of X spells Transmutation rather than Conjuration (Creation) (though, they should be Evocation along with Mage Hand and Telekinesis, but WotC isn't exactly known for actually thinking things through for 3.5).

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:06 PM
Symbols recognizable as musical notation—the visual representation of sound—appear in midair within the curve of your palm accompanied by the fractious sounds they represent. The notes begin to whirl and stretch, forming into a spherical whirlwind of cacophonic chaos, as you make ready to release the spell. At last, you send the sphere of noise toward your chosen target.

well, I guess you DO throw "non magical sound" at the target... maybe there is a magical "shell" (an orb?) that contains it, which breaks on contact with the target... if the target has SR, it disrupts the container orb, which was meant to be break on contact anyways... either way, the non magical contents are released...

Although, this representation of "non magical sound" shows (as if we didn't already know) that WOTC writers fail physics forever.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-24, 05:12 PM
Hm... At the very least, one could say that you can't use Orb of Something spells without having hands (metamagic and scrolls be condemned).

So, uh, if I wand-ed an Orb spell, it would still generate in my hand, correct? That could cause some silly shenanigans.

ken-do-nim
2009-12-24, 07:03 PM
In Tome and Blood, the 3.0 supplement where the Orb spells first appeared, they are evocation and allow SR. I have no idea why they changed it. Typo, perhaps?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 07:07 PM
In Tome and Blood, the 3.0 supplement where the Orb spells first appeared, they are evocation and allow SR. I have no idea why they changed it. Typo, perhaps?

they didn't want to give people even a minute reason to not ban evocation, always...

erikun
2009-12-24, 07:13 PM
Thoqqua (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm) is an elemental with a distinct body, and as DuskEclipse said, we do have Necromentals (undead Earth elementals). Unfortunately, a lot of the creatures you would think are elementals (Genie, Xorn, Salamander) are in fact outsiders. That is one change I did like in 4e.


You can have half-elementals (Manual of the Planes).
Half-Water Elemental Living Extract Water Elemental? :smallbiggrin: Actually, as long as the Living Spell has an 4+ INT score, that's entirely possible.

Emmerask
2009-12-24, 07:23 PM
I have mainly two problems with the orb of x spells

The first and major one is that there are lots of things unexplained by wotc for example if you could use it in a storm that prevents missiles from being fired... I would rule no for one they are none magical after being cunjured and the other would be to limit their power compared to other damage spells.

The second and minor one would be why they are not normal ranged attacks but ranged touch attacks it makes no sense they are none magical after all touch attacks for me are more about having some measure of guidence after launching which you should not have with orb spells.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 07:25 PM
...Touch attacks are attacks that don't care if someone's wearing armour - hitting him is going to hurt anyway. Nothing about magic guidance.

The orbs most likely splatter when they hit.

Emmerask
2009-12-24, 07:27 PM
but if they splatter they should deal area damage if only area damage to one square (meaning a bunch of tiny creatures that are all in one square should all be hit ^^)

edit: and I don´t see a ray of enfeeblement splashing over the creatures armor too ... It looks just wrong if I picture that scene :smallannoyed:

Otodetu
2009-12-24, 07:30 PM
Same with aberrations.


What did you mean about aberrations?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 07:31 PM
What did you mean about aberrations?

You know what? I'm just going to pretend I said oozes.

Otodetu
2009-12-24, 07:46 PM
You know what? I'm just going to pretend I said oozes.

Cool.


Maybe making the orb spells evocations will help heal the world. (it would heal evoker's at least)

taltamir
2009-12-24, 07:49 PM
yes I think they should be evocation...
so should teleports and every conjuration that deals damage...
and while we are at it, lets make disintegrate evocation as well...

sofawall
2009-12-24, 07:55 PM
yes I think they should be evocation...
so should teleports and every conjuration that deals damage...
and while we are at it, lets make disintegrate evocation as well...

Why teleport? Teleport does not make something, or manipulate energy. It moves matter from one place to another, bypassing the intervening space. Basically what Conjuration is supposed to do.

Also, disintegrate also makes little sense as Evoc. Are you just listing damage spells and saying they should be Evoc.?

Talya
2009-12-24, 10:04 PM
The purpose of making them conjuration was to provide an excuse for making them bypass SR.

Note that that's the entire purpose of the orb line of spells...to have an SR-Bypassing ranged touch attack. Nothing wrong with that, the damage is not all that great for a single target spell, the status effects quite resistable and short, and the ranged touch gives a miss chance. I think they're actually well thought out spells. If not for bypassing SR, an orb of fire would be inferior to fireball in almost every way, and it's a level 4 spell to boot.

AslanCross
2009-12-24, 10:22 PM
The spell descriptions are pretty clear that the energy orb appears in your hand then shoots to the target. Orb of force even describes how you feel the pressure of the spell in your palm before you fire it off.

Sliver
2009-12-25, 01:34 AM
excellent point... they bypass SR because you are summoning physical non magical acid, which you then toss at someone. Acid, is an object... and you just summoned it in the air. It has been a few days since the issue first came up before I actually posted it on this forum, so I forgot that aspect until now.

Thing is, if you are throwing around non-magical fire or acid or.. sound and force, then you are doing the normal damage they should deal (1d6) but the fact that this deals more damage, depending on the caster's power, means that it is magically enhanced elements!

By logic, the orbs of sound and force shouldn't be non-magical, while the orbs of fire and acid should have extra things to consider, such as if the spell was resisted (or nullified by stuff like AMF) then it does normal damage as if you thrown a vial of it.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:46 AM
Thing is, if you are throwing around non-magical fire or acid or.. sound and force, then you are doing the normal damage they should deal (1d6) but the fact that this deals more damage, depending on the caster's power, means that it is magically enhanced elements!
Or it means that as a more powerful caster you summon more of it.


By logic, the orbs of sound and force shouldn't be non-magical, while the orbs of fire and acid should have extra things to consider, such as if the spell was resisted (or nullified by stuff like AMF) then it does normal damage as if you thrown a vial of it.
its a magical orb containing non magical substance... when the magic breaks the non magical portion breaks out... yea it doesn't make sense, its magic :)

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:47 AM
Why teleport? Teleport does not make something, or manipulate energy. It moves matter from one place to another, bypassing the intervening space. Basically what Conjuration is supposed to do.

Also, disintegrate also makes little sense as Evoc. Are you just listing damage spells and saying they should be Evoc.?

you are right about teleport, i took that from ToS rules but it actually makes sense as conjuration...

Sliver
2009-12-25, 01:54 AM
Or it means that as a more powerful caster you summon more of it.


its a magical orb containing non magical substance... when the magic breaks the non magical portion breaks out... yea it doesn't make sense, its magic :)

But it vanishes after hitting! If it was non magical, just compressed acid or alchemical fire, then wizards should be able to cast it, throw at some pot and sell it. So you could have stronger vials of acid and such, and there would be vials of force and sound too!

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:03 AM
But it vanishes after hitting! If it was non magical, just compressed acid or alchemical fire, then wizards should be able to cast it, throw at some pot and sell it. So you could have stronger vials of acid and such, and there would be vials of force and sound too!

true... that just means the explanation WOTC gave is stupid.

ex cathedra
2009-12-25, 02:07 AM
I don't understand the point in whining about the discrepancy between your fantasy-world-with-wizards-and-dragons physics and your not-so-fantastic-world-without-wizards-and-thus-without-an-orb-spell-with-which-to-compare. Just sayin'.

Sliver
2009-12-25, 02:10 AM
No whining, but I will probably introduce vials of sounds in my campaign..

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:18 AM
I don't understand the point in whining about the discrepancy between your fantasy-world-with-wizards-and-dragons physics and your not-so-fantastic-world-without-wizards-and-thus-without-an-orb-spell-with-which-to-compare. Just sayin'.

not a single person was doing such... we were complaining about inconsistency in the fantasy-world-with-wizards-and-dragons. If anything, we were discussion magic mechanics rather then actual physics... we didn't complain about their horrid failings of physics in terms of what "sound damage" is and the like, but discussed the magical envelopes of force, whether a non magical contained materials being objects or magical effects, interaction between spell resistance and either of the above, etc...

sofawall
2009-12-25, 02:19 AM
you are right about teleport, i took that from ToS rules but it actually makes sense as conjuration...

It was changed in ToS because we gave up on schools making sense, so we just decided "What would make people consider keeping Evoc? Teleport."

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-25, 03:32 AM
No whining, but I will probably introduce vials of sounds in my campaign..
*Holds a seashell up to his ear* :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-12-25, 03:45 AM
*Holds a seashell up to his ear* :smallbiggrin:

take 1d6 sound damage... better get a good roll or you may die :)

Sliver
2009-12-25, 03:50 AM
take 1d6 sound damage... better get a good roll or you may die :)

Nope, only fall unconscious and start bleeding...

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 04:13 AM
Nope, only fall unconscious and start bleeding...

Which results in, at best, a 44% chance of survival, and a 56% chance of death.

Which fits in with "you may die".

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-25, 04:17 AM
Guys guys.

The spells say "as Orb of Acid".

So you're throwing around nonmagical acid that deal fire and electricity and sound damage.

Sliver
2009-12-25, 04:28 AM
Guys guys.

The spells say "as Orb of Acid".

So you're throwing around nonmagical acid that deal fire and electricity and sound damage.

That.. Actually makes a lot of sense..

"Noooo! The acid! It's so loud!"

MeTheGameGuy
2009-12-25, 04:28 AM
Guys guys.

The spells say "as Orb of Acid".

So you're throwing around nonmagical acid that deal fire and electricity and sound damage.

So, flaming acid, electrified acid, and very noisy acid? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Gah, ninja'd by a funnier person! :smallfrown:

Sliver
2009-12-25, 04:33 AM
So, flaming acid, electrified acid, and very noisy acid? :smalltongue:

And.. Force acid? How does that work?

MeTheGameGuy
2009-12-25, 04:35 AM
And.. Force acid? How does that work?

Acid that hits you very hard, due to force. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-12-25, 04:42 AM
Guys guys.

The spells say "as Orb of Acid".

So you're throwing around nonmagical acid that deal fire and electricity and sound damage.

that is the funniest thing I have heard in a days... :)
you win a cookie!


And.. Force acid? How does that work?

I don't even know what DnD force actually IS.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 04:49 AM
I don't even know what DnD force actually IS.

Remember of those Secret deodorant commercials?

"Strong enough for a man, made for a woman"

Force is like that, except with physical damage and energy effects.

Which is to say, I am confused about deodorant slogans and force damage.

Fishy
2009-12-25, 05:29 AM
I don't know if there's any backing to it, but I always thought of Force effects as funky bends in spacetime. A Wall of Force isn't so much a physical object as a 'you can't get there from here'.

But I guess that really doesn't explain Mage Armor.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 05:31 AM
or epic escape artist.
or magic missile
or immovable rod.
or much of anything... :)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 05:41 AM
or orb of force.

It's an orb of "You can't get there from here" that moves at very high speeds until it reaches you. Then "You can't get to you from you".

MeTheGameGuy
2009-12-25, 05:47 AM
I think force is basically kinetic energy. So a Wall of Force is kinetic energy pushing outwards to stop you from getting through, and an Orb of Force is an Orb of Acid going very fast with lots of kinetic energy. :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-25, 05:48 AM
In other words?

A Wizard did it.

Kallisti
2009-12-25, 06:03 AM
:smalllawyer:A wizard who lives by the Coast, if you get my drift.

They need to make smileys of the Lawyers.

Sliver
2009-12-25, 06:41 AM
I think force is basically kinetic energy. So a Wall of Force is kinetic energy pushing outwards to stop you from getting through, and an Orb of Force is an Orb of Acid going very fast with lots of kinetic energy. :smallbiggrin:

Like.. In Naruto?

ken-do-nim
2009-12-25, 07:21 AM
The purpose of making them conjuration was to provide an excuse for making them bypass SR.

Note that that's the entire purpose of the orb line of spells...to have an SR-Bypassing ranged touch attack. Nothing wrong with that, the damage is not all that great for a single target spell, the status effects quite resistable and short, and the ranged touch gives a miss chance. I think they're actually well thought out spells. If not for bypassing SR, an orb of fire would be inferior to fireball in almost every way, and it's a level 4 spell to boot.

Thoughts:
1. I don't think wizards need more spells that bypass SR. The whole point of the SR system is to keep wizards and clerics in check, isn't it?
2. If making the spells bypass SR is the justification for keeping them 4th level (also check out Blast of Flame in Complete Arcane) which I believe it is, I think it would be better to drop the spells to 3rd level. You want to deal damage in an area? Go with fireball. You want to nail one target? Go with orb of fire. Makes sense to me.

As it is, the spells offend my sensibilities and I would never use them as written in 3.5. Back when we played 3.0, I would like to point out that the wizard player used them a fair bit, but that's probably because he was looking to prestige class into something that allowed him to channel an attack through his weapon.

Aquillion
2009-12-25, 07:44 AM
awesome... so in that case I better get on to making a spell that conjures acid in people's blood. Or electricity in their rectum.Note that for Conjuration spells to work inside of an AMF, you have to be conjuring them outside and sending them in. If I turn your blood to acid (presumably a spell that inflicts constant damage over a few turns), it won't turn back into blood just because you shamble into an AMF, but if you're standing inside an AMF at the start I can't do it.

Similarly, it seems very likely to me that SR would apply against attempts to create things inside your body; that's very different from creating something elsewhere and hitting you with it. (Actually, isn't there a spell to create water inside someone's lungs? Does that allow SR? That would be a good comparison.)

And as a final note, remember that things in D&D are often not as damaging as you would expect them to be. For example, a Belker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/belker.htm) (no relation) has an attack that works as follows:

Smoke inside the victim solidifies into a claw and begins to rip at the surrounding organs, dealing 3d4 points of damage per round.
So yeah. Don't expect acid-in-the-blood to be instant death.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-25, 08:09 AM
1. I don't think wizards need more spells that bypass SR. The whole point of the SR system is to keep wizards and clerics in check, isn't it?
Yeeees, but "no buttons" are all too common and not good in 3.5. A Wizard should not be entirely shut down by SR, just forced to be ready for that contingency and required to use an otherwise-inferior tactic. Same as Fighters should be able to do something, say, against a quadruped even when supposedly a "tripper", or should be able to do something on difficult terrain even when built as a "charger" - the fact that they can't is the failing of pre-ToB 3.5 melee.

ken-do-nim
2009-12-25, 09:00 AM
Yeeees, but "no buttons" are all too common and not good in 3.5. A Wizard should not be entirely shut down by SR, just forced to be ready for that contingency and required to use an otherwise-inferior tactic. Same as Fighters should be able to do something, say, against a quadruped even when supposedly a "tripper", or should be able to do something on difficult terrain even when built as a "charger" - the fact that they can't is the failing of pre-ToB 3.5 melee.

I have zero sympathy for anybody playing a wizard who hasn't taken spell penetration or a single summoning spell to prepare for a fight with a high SR foe. I've seen it a lot at the gaming table where someone ignores an obvious glaring weakness in their character and then when the time comes, pouts about how unfair 3.5 is. (Edit: usually with the fighter who doesn't take iron will then gets creamed on will saves)

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:35 PM
I think force is basically kinetic energy. So a Wall of Force is kinetic energy pushing outwards to stop you from getting through, and an Orb of Force is an Orb of Acid going very fast with lots of kinetic energy. :smallbiggrin:

so... what is the difference between force and sound?

Chrono22
2009-12-25, 01:40 PM
What is keeping the orb of nonmagical force/acid/fire/cold/sonic from annihilating/melting/burning/freezing/disintigrating your hand? What propels it toward the target?
What is nonmagical force? Where does it come from?

The orb spells as a whole are ill conceived excuses to push a no-SR ranged touch spell. It's munchkinism taken to the nth degree- exploiting poorly worded entries in the conjuration school description- worse still, it's published munchkinism.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:43 PM
I have zero sympathy for anybody playing a wizard who hasn't taken spell penetration or a single summoning spell to prepare for a fight with a high SR foe. I've seen it a lot at the gaming table where someone ignores an obvious glaring weakness in their character and then when the time comes, pouts about how unfair 3.5 is. (Edit: usually with the fighter who doesn't take iron will then gets creamed on will saves)

Spell penetration? you mean assay resistance (+10 to penetrate SR)...
Although, for best results you combine greater spell penetration and assay resistance and +1 CL items.

problem is, as you run into more and more creatures with SR, and it becomes ridiculously high SR...
Frankly though, SR is not nearly the PITA that saves are...
Spells are over powered, protections against spells are also overpowered... If spells were SIGNIFICANTLY weaker and allowed no SR or Saves (or less of an effect for SR and saves)... then you would have a more balanced game...
Rather then

"ok, did you heavily optimize for this type of encounter? good, you bypass SR and save and insta kill the boss, next turn you will insta kill his cohorts... good job outshining the party"

or
"haha! you didn't heavily optimize for such an encounter, your spells are all useless! neener neener now sit on the sidelines and shut it"...

I had both happen to me... the latter sucks, and the latter convinces me to get more tricts to bypass such defenses so that when I finally power through I get to the earlier...

I recently had a DM tell me "you just dusted a powerful mage slayer with a single disintegrate, you are not allowed to bitch about the spell anymore"...
I also completely wasted my actions during the previous 4 battles because the first 5 casting of disintegrate all failed due to SR or miss chance (not due to a save, yet)... So how did I get over it? I stacked things in my favor, I used true strike and assay resistance that battle that I finally dusted a powerful opponent.

Kylarra
2009-12-25, 01:46 PM
Similarly, it seems very likely to me that SR would apply against attempts to create things inside your body; that's very different from creating something elsewhere and hitting you with it. (Actually, isn't there a spell to create water inside someone's lungs? Does that allow SR? That would be a good comparison.)Blood to Water (SpC33) is 7th level cleric spell that does what it says on the box for 2D6 CON damage, and it is both SR yes and fort half.

absolmorph
2009-12-25, 01:49 PM
A WIZARD DID IT.


:amused:
The only logical response I've seen in this thread.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:51 PM
fine... orb of glue... you conjure an orb 2 inches across containing sovereign glue, it flies from your a hand to the target's face. if it hits it splatters the glue all over the face, fusing the eyes shut / open, permanently clogging the nose and mouth and preventing breathing...

Sliver
2009-12-25, 01:54 PM
The only logical response I've seen in this thread.

I think orbs of acid that deal fire, electricity, force and sound are far more logical..

Vials of screaming acid for sale! Merry Christmas!

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:56 PM
I still want to know the difference between force and sonic, if force is just kinetic energy...

I think force could be explained to be gravitational anomaly or some such.

Although the real answer is that WOTC fail physics forever.

Knaight
2009-12-25, 01:59 PM
Dissipation of the orbs makes sense though. Once acid hits it splashes(Yeah, a cauldron should work here), one fire hits it dissipates(no good way to keep it either, unless you have a really good heat storage method), sound waves will spread out in mid air, force really has no excuse, etc.

On Force/Sound differences. The stuff that actually hits you with sound is completely different from the stuff the sound was fired into, as the energy goes from one bunch of air molecules to the next. If Force works differently than that, and the force thrown is the force that hits, they have a difference.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:02 PM
On Force/Sound differences. The stuff that actually hits you with sound is completely different from the stuff the sound was fired into, as the energy goes from one bunch of air molecules to the next. If Force works differently than that, and the force thrown is the force that hits, they have a difference.

but how is the actual kinetic force hitting you without hitting air molecules between you and it, thus being sound?

Mercenary Pen
2009-12-25, 03:01 PM
but how is the actual kinetic force hitting you without hitting air molecules between you and it, thus being sound?

But there's a difference between force creating non-magical (and entirely mundane) sound as it passes through the air on the way to its target and damaging sound that is itself the actual attack vector.

ken-do-nim
2009-12-25, 03:38 PM
Spell penetration? you mean assay resistance (+10 to penetrate SR)...


I sometimes forget about assay resistance because I've banned it.



problem is, as you run into more and more creatures with SR, and it becomes ridiculously high SR...


Hmmm... if we take a look at the pit fiend, he's got SR 32 and he's challenge rating 20. So if your party wizard is 20 (or 19 with a +1 CL item), that means he needs to roll a 12 or higher to affect him. Take spell penetration and now it is 10, greater spell penetration now its 8. Seems like a balanced system to me, but I haven't played above level 17.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 04:03 PM
But there's a difference between force creating non-magical (and entirely mundane) sound as it passes through the air on the way to its target and damaging sound that is itself the actual attack vector.

But the "magical sound" is still a kinetic force, that is my point. To say otherwise is to fail to understand that sound is a wave of kinetic energy passing through a medium (gas).

the end result of both sound and force spells (if force is kinetic) is that you are hit with a wave of motion...
oh, fire ALSO falls into that... (that is why an IRL explosion is always a ball of fire AND a blast of "sound"... and it is the "sound" that does most of the damage.. actually the term is shockwave not sound)

taltamir
2009-12-25, 04:05 PM
Hmmm... if we take a look at the pit fiend, he's got SR 32 and he's challenge rating 20. So if your party wizard is 20 (or 19 with a +1 CL item), that means he needs to roll a 12 or higher to affect him. Take spell penetration and now it is 10, greater spell penetration now its 8. Seems like a balanced system to me, but I haven't played above level 17.

Assay resistance gives you a +10, there is a spell that gives outsiders and outsiders only a -10, and then there is spell volnerability, which gives anyone -8 if they fail their save.

And there is nothing balanced about it, either you waste your actions failing against his SR (especially if you are lower level than him.. say, level 15) or you bypass it and insta kill him with one spell... making a mockery of your friends who are playing something like a martial character.

ken-do-nim
2009-12-25, 04:40 PM
Assay resistance gives you a +10, there is a spell that gives outsiders and outsiders only a -10, and then there is spell volnerability, which gives anyone -8 if they fail their save.


Well, I've banned assay resistance as I mentioned earlier and spell vulnerability allows a fort saving throw, something pit fiends excel at. Also, spell vulnerability lowers SR, it does nothing to saving throws (Spell Compendium version, anyway).



And there is nothing balanced about it, either you waste your actions failing against his SR (especially if you are lower level than him.. say, level 15) or you bypass it and insta kill him with one spell... making a mockery of your friends who are playing something like a martial character.

A) What's wrong with failing an SR check? It is the same as a martial character rolling to hit and missing. The important thing is to make each character feel like they make a meaningful contribution to a big fight, not that each round a contribution is made.
B) There aren't that many spells that insta kill a pit fiend whose SR is overcome. Sure there are some nasty touch attacks, but that means getting your wizard up close and personal to the pit fiend.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 04:49 PM
Well, I've banned assay resistance as I mentioned earlier and spell vulnerability allows a fort saving throw, something pit fiends excel at. Also, spell vulnerability lowers SR, it does nothing to saving throws (Spell Compendium version, anyway).

I know it lowers SR, that is why I listed it as an SR lowering spell... And I myself mentioned it gives a save...

Specifically, it gives a fort save, the one which lowers SR on outsiders only in an area gives a... I think it was a will save...
Assay resistance is usually enough.

Banning it is a sensible thing to do. Although, it really hurts the casters in terms of fun... since often they can be useless / buff bots.


A) What's wrong with failing an SR check? It is the same as a martial character rolling to hit and missing. The important thing is to make each character feel like they make a meaningful contribution to a big fight, not that each round a contribution is made.

Martial characters get multiple attacks per round, and infinite attacks per day.
You have maybe 1 or 2 spells that can finish off that enemy.
If they miss an attack, they try again. If you miss an attack you have nothing to do (your lower level spells no longer affect a creature that powerful).
So if you failed to insta kill it, then you are done contributing to battle... unless you are buffing... in which case you are making others shine.


B) There aren't that many spells that insta kill a pit fiend whose SR is overcome. Sure there are some nasty touch attacks, but that means getting your wizard up close and personal to the pit fiend.

Yes, there aren't many, but they exist. This is why the chances are that you only have one or two effective (against this enemy) spells prepared.
So either you insta kill it, or you don't contribute to battle... both are not fun.
The fact you can optimize to ensure that you are consistently insta killing means you get to choose how much you want to spoil things for your friends or how much you are willing to suffer in uselessness. And there is a good chance that they don't know the exact amounts here and will feel outshined even if you spend 5 battles useless to dust someone on the 6th battle.

Tar Palantir
2009-12-25, 05:02 PM
As far as the "what is force" debate, I have two words for you.

Strong force. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interaction)

taltamir
2009-12-25, 05:07 PM
As far as the "what is force" debate, I have two words for you.

Strong force. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interaction)

that would either create a nuclear reaction... or it will just be a method of creating "sonic" and "fire" damage.

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 06:39 PM
In Tome and Blood, the 3.0 supplement where the Orb spells first appeared, they are evocation and allow SR. I have no idea why they changed it. Typo, perhaps?

It actually wasn't a typo. It was an example of the staggering incompetence of certain WotC designers, but it wasn't a typo.

The 3.5 designers made a lot of arbitrary changes for no reason.

One of those changes was to spell resistance. You'll actually notice that Melf's Acid Arrow suddenly stopped allowing spell resistance when 3.5 was released.

As for the force discussion, 'Force' is magically created 'hard light'.

About the only physical things it could be are a space-time distortion or some sort of exotic matter. I'm pretty sure neither can be used in any way that isn't overtly supernatural.

ken-do-nim
2009-12-25, 07:43 PM
Banning it is a sensible thing to do. Although, it really hurts the casters in terms of fun... since often they can be useless / buff bots.


I happen to like buffing others.



Martial characters get multiple attacks per round, and infinite attacks per day.
You have maybe 1 or 2 spells that can finish off that enemy.
If they miss an attack, they try again. If you miss an attack you have nothing to do (your lower level spells no longer affect a creature that powerful).
So if you failed to insta kill it, then you are done contributing to battle... unless you are buffing... in which case you are making others shine.


Ah gotcha. My only high level play was as a sorcerer, so I did not run into this problem. I'm chiefly remembering the end of Return to Temple of Elemental Evil, by which point my sorcerer was 14th or 15th and had greater spell penetration so he only needed to roll a 6 to affect Imix. Never have I rolled so many 5s and below. It worked out to be about 50% effectiveness on Imix instead of 75%, but I digress. My sorcerer was still the star of the show, because nobody else could get near Imix.

Aquillion
2009-12-25, 09:30 PM
It actually wasn't a typo. It was an example of the staggering incompetence of certain WotC designers, but it wasn't a typo.

The 3.5 designers made a lot of arbitrary changes for no reason.

One of those changes was to spell resistance. You'll actually notice that Melf's Acid Arrow suddenly stopped allowing spell resistance when 3.5 was released.Honestly, IMHO it was a good chance.

Remember two things: First, blasting is still generally not very powerful. Unless you're absurdly optimized, you won't even beat the fighter (and if he's equally optimized, he'll still win.)

Second, being unable to do anything at all sucks. It's just boring and not fun. So it's important to give wizards some sort of options that work when dealing with AMFs and sky-high SR (or golem-style spell immunity), even if they're suboptimal.

Instant conjuration attacks do a good job at this.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 12:16 AM
The last four times this question was raised, I posted something along these lines:

"Orbs are non-sentient, highly volatile minor elementals programmed to do only one thing - charge suicidally at the wizard's target and transfer their energy to it."

1) This explains why they survive in anti-magic - they are instantaneous, and thus exist on this plane even in the absence of magical energy.

2) This explains why they aren't summons - they have so little anima that a true calling effect isn't necessary to bring them here.

3) This explains why they are ranged touch attacks instead of ranged attacks - rather than being thrown, they are merely directed, just as one would direct a ray.

Did I miss anything?

taltamir
2009-12-26, 02:37 AM
oooh... elemetal eggs... if you kill someone with an orb spell, the orb implants in their body and hatches into a baby elemental, which then goes back to its own plane of course (no, you don't control them)...

ok, as cute as it is, it is probably not too good an idea... I like the notion of them being a very minor elemental.


Second, being unable to do anything at all sucks. It's just boring and not fun. So it's important to give wizards some sort of options that work when dealing with AMFs and sky-high SR (or golem-style spell immunity), even if they're suboptimal.
Yes, "site aside and do nothing on some battles" is not a good balance for "and other times you are !GOD!"
It is better to cut down on abusive spells that make them gods, and give them some options to at least do SOMETHING in battle.

direct damage spells that deal low damage and ignore SR are good for this purpose.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 02:47 AM
A) What's wrong with failing an SR check? It is the same as a martial character rolling to hit and missing. The important thing is to make each character feel like they make a meaningful contribution to a big fight, not that each round a contribution is made.

By the same token, what's wrong with getting a bonus to an SR check? It's the same as a martial character getting a bonus to an attack roll, by that logic.

So Spell Pen feats and Assay Resistance are more or less just abilities that consume resources (Assay Res. consumes the most valuable resource in combat, actions, Spell Pen feats consume feats) to make the spells hit more reliably.

Most SR spells allow a save. Therein lies one of the two main differences between spells and attacks. Even if SR is penetrated, the enemy STILL gets a chance to mitigate the effect.

The other difference? Generally, spells have more effective consequences if you do get through all of it.

Basically, SR + Saves + High Touch AC is nothing more than a layered defense. Removing one portion of it makes a creature less resistant, yes... But by no means does it completely render a creature helpless.



direct damage spells that deal low damage and ignore SR are good for this purpose.
Acid Arrow?

Jack_Simth
2009-12-26, 03:13 AM
How do you have line of sight/effect to someone's lungs?

Well, the first step is to make sure there's a hole, at least 1 foot square, between you and the target's lungs. Once this has been accomplished, the target is pretty much dead, so the question of whether or not you can make things appear inside them then becomes moot.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 03:47 AM
As for the force discussion, 'Force' is magically created 'hard light'.

About the only physical things it could be are a space-time distortion or some sort of exotic matter. I'm pretty sure neither can be used in any way that isn't overtly supernatural.
Except that it doesn't counter darkness effects, it flies through darkness effects, it is, in and of itself, invisible... And other things.

No. It's not hard lazors.


Well, the first step is to make sure there's a hole, at least 1 foot square, between you and the target's lungs. Once this has been accomplished, the target is pretty much dead, so the question of whether or not you can make things appear inside them then becomes moot.

Or you target the person with a spell that affects their lungs. Granted, it has to explicitly affect their lungs.

ken-do-nim
2009-12-26, 06:54 AM
Honestly, IMHO it was a good chance.

Remember two things: First, blasting is still generally not very powerful. Unless you're absurdly optimized, you won't even beat the fighter (and if he's equally optimized, he'll still win.)

Second, being unable to do anything at all sucks. It's just boring and not fun. So it's important to give wizards some sort of options that work when dealing with AMFs and sky-high SR (or golem-style spell immunity), even if they're suboptimal.

Instant conjuration attacks do a good job at this.

I would argue that even in just core alone wizards have many of options against high SR foes or golems. Spells that defy the physics of D&D are not needed. Summoning (unless in Castle Druid-nerf or World's Largest Druid-nerf) is a great tactic, as are battlefield control spells of the conjuration family.

lesser_minion
2009-12-26, 07:12 AM
The last four times this question was raised, I posted something along these lines:

"Orbs are non-sentient, highly volatile minor elementals programmed to do only one thing - charge suicidally at the wizard's target and transfer their energy to it."

1) This explains why they survive in anti-magic - they are instantaneous, and thus exist on this plane even in the absence of magical energy.


By RAW, a conjured creature ceases to exist in an antimagic field, whether it was an instantaneous effect or not.



RE: the conjuration thing, conjuration effects cannot create something inside of a creature. (unless specifically stated otherwise). They put the rule next to the problematic spell (Create Water) but not in the general rules. You could make a spell that explicitly filled a creature's lungs with acid, but it would probably move school.


@Aquillion: I don't really like it. WotC should NOT have made rules changes just because the new design team didn't like the way spell resistance worked in 3.0.

It wasn't broken, so why did they 'fix' it?

Also:


being unable to do anything at all sucks. It's just boring and not fun

If possible, you find ways to affect your target indirectly - e.g. blast a weakened ceiling, scorch a few mooks, or find a way to steal the McGuffin.

In general, the DM is supposed to take your abilities into account in order to allow you to have more interesting encounters. Even if they have the means to rule that your powers suddenly don't work, they shouldn't. And considering what they can do to most characters (fighters can be left doing nothing but rolling their reflex saves and deducting damage from their hitpoints), I don't see how wizards can complain really.

Not everyone even minds letting somebody else take the spotlight once in a while, as long as everyone is utterly awesome when they are in the spotlight.



No. It's not hard lazors.

I know. I misread the trope article.

Try the exotic matter or space-time distortions I suggested. Also, every single artistic depiction of magical force has this blue glowing thing.

Theodoric
2009-12-26, 07:21 AM
Except that it doesn't counter darkness effects, it flies through darkness effects, it is, in and of itself, invisible... And other things.

No. It's not hard lazors.
It's invisible spectral hard light. Duh.:smallcool:

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 07:27 AM
Try the exotic matter or space-time distortions I suggested. Also, every single artistic depiction of magical force has this blue glowing thing.

However, Wall of Force's spell description explicitly states that it's invisible, showing that force doesn't have an inherent color. That's not to say some force effects can't be colored. Think of it as a non-nutritive force additive.

I'd wager the artist depictions of force effects as blue and glowings stems a lot from the difficulty of portraying something that's invisible, and yet there.

lesser_minion
2009-12-26, 08:13 AM
However, Wall of Force's spell description explicitly states that it's invisible, showing that force doesn't have an inherent color. That's not to say some force effects can't be colored. Think of it as a non-nutritive force additive.

I'd wager the artist depictions of force effects as blue and glowings stems a lot from the difficulty of portraying something that's invisible, and yet there.

I guess.

As I said, the "exotic matter" and "localised space-time distortion" are probably more likely.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 03:44 PM
Acid Arrow?

good spell.. now give it as an at will spell and we will be talking.
it can miss via regular touch attack, no SR crap, and the damage is not spectacular by any means...

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-26, 04:08 PM
good spell.. now give it as an at will spell and we will be talking.
it can miss via regular touch attack, no SR crap, and the damage is not spectacular by any means...

Vitriolic Blast?

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 04:12 PM
Vitriolic Blast?

Go Eldritch Theurge and tack it onto any touch spell - now you have Vitriolic Shivering Touch for instance.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:13 PM
Vitriolic Blast?

yes... the warlock is the class wizards should have been. They aren't game breaking, they always have something to do, they aren't grossly overpowered...

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-26, 04:45 PM
I'd wager the artist depictions of force effects as blue and glowings stems a lot from the difficulty of portraying something that's invisible, and yet there.
Actually, I believe the blue glowy stuff is the artist's rendition of the midichlorians responsible for the force wall. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:50 PM
Actually, I believe the blue glowy stuff is the artist's rendition of the midichlorians responsible for the force wall. :smallwink:

you notice how artist renditions don't usually match the actual description?

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 03:32 AM
Holy tangent batman. Oh well. I've always considered force spells to be force itself, an energy not a material. That's why they're evocation not conjuration. Kind of like force fields.

As for orb of force... Yeah, I stopped trying to make sense of it long before this spell. They're supposed to be nonmagical objects and thus bypass SR. Orb of ice deals all cold and no bludgeoning, somehow. Orb of fire burns without fuel and burns hotter than any mundane fire could without a stone encasement and flue, somehow. Orb of electricity, orb of sonic, owowowowow, head hurts, make it stop.

Optimystik
2009-12-27, 03:41 AM
owowowowow, head hurts, make it stop.

Would my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7573190&postcount=106) help your headache any?

lesser_minion
2009-12-27, 06:58 AM
Would my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7573190&postcount=106) help your headache any?

It doesn't help mine:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm


Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

It's not too obvious what is going on, but the last sentence is only meant to apply to creatures (called, teleported, plane shifted, etc.).

It says nowhere in the spell description that the spell creates creatures, so they don't survive an antimagic field.