What book is Genesis in?

[Zaydos]

I keep hearing about Genesis + Time Trait abuse but the only book I can find Genesis in is the Epic Level Handbook (and echoed in the SRD) and it mentions nothing about being able to control the time trait of your plane but only


factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

It goes on to specify types of terrain that can and cannot be created (leaving out any mention of precious materials) but there's no mention of being able to control the planar traits such as time, gravity, energy, alignment. So could you actually manipulate any of these?

In Tome of Magic a Cleric spell Word of Genesis functions similarly but specifies no manipulation of the time trait (also requires Truespeak to cast).

PS: I apologize if there's already a thread on this.

[Yuki Akuma]

Epic Level Handbook, yes.

There's a psionic version in the Expanded Psionics Handbook which specifically forbids altering the time trait. But the arcane version doesn't. Which is the reasoning most people use.

[hamishspence]

It is in multiple books, however, unlike the psionic version and the truespeak version, none of the magic versions explicitly specify you can't manipulate time.

Deities and Demigods
Defenders of the Faith
Epic Handbook

are the three books with it in (epic is the latest though.)

[Sliver]

Well, there are few things that support the idea of time manipulation.. Your quote, "Such as", meaning that those are examples, and other things can be determined too.
The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. Some say that the time trait is a trait the caster desires to manipulate, others say he can't visualize it..

[Saintjebus]

From what I understand, the use of the time trait in Genesis is a function of "But it doesn't say you can't!"
Yes, it only appears in the Epic Level Handbook(pretty sure- somebody else will probably check me)

Most people either ban it, or rule that it does not give time traits.

EDIT: So..many... ninjas

[Kobold-Bard]

It says you can alter the traits of your demiplane, and the DMG lists Time as a Planar trait. So people say that they can adjust it, ignoring the fact that it doesn't say you can do it.

[hamishspence]

Interstingly, the most recent version of the Creation domain (Complete Divine) removes Genesis from the list of domain spells.

Effectively making the spell arcane-only.

the Manual of the Planes PRC Planeshifter has a special ability allowing it to create a demiplane- unlike any of the others, it can create forests (which is to say, life) in the demiplane.

It can't manipulate the time trait though.

[Eldan]

Actually, what about the free magic trait of the astral plane, then? Could that be replicated?

[Roderick_BR]

Interstingly, the most recent version of the Creation domain (Complete Divine) removes Genesis from the list of domain spells.

Effectively making the spell arcane-only.

the Manual of the Planes PRC Planeshifter has a special ability allowing it to create a demiplane- unlike any of the others, it can create forests (which is to say, life) in the demiplane.

It can't manipulate the time trait though.

The creation domain had Genesis as a domain spell? Pre-epic? Mortals could create a whole dimension (powerful casters, but still pre-epic mortal men)?
That's one of the problems with D&D. Casters are allowed to do everything, and magic is incredibly easy to use, with no failure chance, no side effects, no backlashes, no nothing.

[Yuki Akuma]

The creation domain had Genesis as a domain spell? Pre-epic? Mortals could create a whole dimension (powerful casters, but still pre-epic mortal men)?
That's one of the problems with D&D. Casters are allowed to do everything, and magic is incredibly easy to use, with no failure chance, no side effects, no backlashes, no nothing.

Genesis is a 9th level spell.

[hamishspence]

Eventually, it was restricted to mortal wizards- no clerics.

Demiplane creation doesn't seem that out of line with caster power in general though. And at least one 4E epic destiny involves the creation of a demiplane.

[The Glyphstone]

Magic has downsides. Remember, if you use Lesser Planar Binding to call up an Imp so it can cast Commune for you, Asmodeus himself will come and kill you the next day. Pretty big drawback there.:smallwink::smallwink:

[Yuki Akuma]

Eventually, it was restricted to mortal wizards- no clerics.

And then widened to wizards, psions and clerics stupid enough to have ranks in Truespeak.

[hamishspence]

psions and truespeakers have a version that explicitly forbids manipulating the time trait, though.

By restricted, I mean the spell as written in the Epic Handbook, not the many similar but not identical spells and powers.

[Sinfire Titan]

Magic has downsides. Remember, if you use Lesser Planar Binding to call up an Imp so it can cast Commune for you, Asmodeus himself will come and kill you the next day. Pretty big drawback there.:smallwink::smallwink:

That right there is pure DM Fiat. Asmodeus himself wouldn't stoop so low as to help a nameless Imp, even if it was from his own mansion. That little bastard will be lucky to get help from anything bigger than a Lemmure.

[taltamir]

does the emperor himself come to avenge the lowliest of mere beats in their domain?
how does that make sense?

[Zaydos]

It says you can alter the traits of your demiplane, and the DMG lists Time as a Planar trait. So people say that they can adjust it, ignoring the fact that it doesn't say you can do it.

The Epic Level Handbook makes no mention of altering planar traits, it mentions environment and enverimental factors only, although the older two versions (Deities and Demigods and Defenders of the Faith) might.


The creation domain had Genesis as a domain spell? Pre-epic? Mortals could create a whole dimension (powerful casters, but still pre-epic mortal men)?
That's one of the problems with D&D. Casters are allowed to do everything, and magic is incredibly easy to use, with no failure chance, no side effects, no backlashes, no nothing.

Actually it has a 5000 XP cost which is a side effect even if only a 3rd to a 4th of a level when you get the spell.

But in short the argument is it didn't specify you can't and that time is considered part of the environment and in line with the example factors you can modify. I can see an argument for making demiplanes of adamantine which is bad enough but not really for the time trait any more than the magic trait or morphic trait.

[Sinfire Titan]

does the emperor himself come to avenge the lowliest of mere beats in their domain?
how does that make sense?

Exactly. A Pit Fiend may draw some attention, but Asmodeus can just cut himself and make 5 more.

[Yuki Akuma]

does the emperor himself come to avenge the lowliest of mere beats in their domain?
how does that make sense?

It's called "exaggeration for comic effect".

Some people have recently complained that the way CO uses Planar Binding doesn't work because it pisses off outsiders.

Which is true, but they tend to overstate it.

The clue is in the wink.

[Sinfire Titan]

I can see an argument for making demiplanes of adamantine which is bad enough but not really for the time trait any more than the magic trait or morphic trait.

Except it mentions not allowing rare materials to be created, thus leaving you with dirt and little else.

[Crow]

The Bible?

[taltamir]

there is an infinite amount of outsiders... who are formed spontaneously from the raw energy of their respective infinite plains.

Summon new ones, who don't have friends yet.

[Sinfire Titan]

The Bible?

:smallsigh: That was bad.

[taltamir]

:smallsigh: That was bad.

the sad part is that it took me a while to get...

[hamishspence]

yes "environment traits" are one of those things that some people claim applies to all possible traits (time, gravity, etc) a plane can have.

The Planeshifter version is pretty clear about what you can and can't have. Normal time, Normal magic, Alterable morphic (that is, normal)

what you can choose, for that version, was: gravity, elemental traits, alignment traits, whether it's finite or self-contained, and the exact layout of the landscape.

The psionic version clarifies- no exotic materials.

[Zaydos]

That's the scary thing with the Epic Level Handbook/SRD version it doesn't mention rare materials. Only life and construction. It mentions nothing abotu planar traits but only environment and "general shape of the terrain". Personally I wouldn't allow rare materials or time traits but still the RAW is terrifyingly vague (which is why I hoped it had been reprinted). Which also makes me wonder what kind of terrain you could have...


The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.

Edit: So wizards can make it however they want, but poor psions (and clerics) can't? That seems unfair.

[Zeful]

Edit: So wizards can make it however they want, but poor psions (and clerics) can't? That seems unfair.

They have to be able to visualize it. You can visualize a lot of things but the things you can't visualize (Time and Magic Traits) are the ones that are the most heavily abused by the Theoretical Optimization crowd.

Also it's a good reason to simply Copypasta the Psionic version.

[Yuki Akuma]

They have to be able to visualize it. You can visualize a lot of things but the things you can't visualize (Time and Magic Traits) are the ones that are the most heavily abused by the Theoretical Optimization crowd.

Also it's a good reason to simply Copypasta the Psionic version.

Just because you can't visualise time and magic traits doesn't mean an Int 19+ Wizard can't.

[taltamir]

Edit: So wizards can make it however they want, but poor psions (and clerics) can't? That seems unfair.

Yes, it is not fair :)

[Zeful]

Just because you can't visualize time and magic traits doesn't mean an Int 19+ Wizard can't.

Visualization is to create pictures in your mind depicting things. Time cannot be depicted through pictures, but in the progression of them. Since the spell only indicates visualization of the plane itself, the progression of images required for the spells can't show any time trait other than the Normal Time trait. Magic can't normally be seen, much less visualized and that's only for effects that are currently active. The Magic Trait of a plane can't be detected through the use of any spell in D&D, and as such cannot be visualized.

Just because I can't do it is immaterial. The fact that it's impossible due to the way the brain is wired, is more important.

[Zaq]

psions and truespeakers have a version that explicitly forbids manipulating the time trait, though.

By restricted, I mean the spell as written in the Epic Handbook, not the many similar but not identical spells and powers.

It's not for Truenamers. Truenamers get fewer nice things than melee. It's for Clerics who happen to have crazy high Truespeak checks. Why? Hell if I know.

[taltamir]

It's not for Truenamers. Truenamers get fewer nice things than melee. It's for Clerics who happen to have crazy high Truespeak checks. Why? Hell if I know.

correct, there is no truename version of the spell... there are actual divine and arcane spells that a wizard or cleric can cast IF they have enough ranks in truespeak.
Every single one of those utterly sucks, because it merely replicates existing spells, but now requires the wizard / cleric to have an utterly useless skill...

But, a few suck a little less than the true namer itself :)

[Yuki Akuma]

I dunno, Unmaking is pretty good.

You literally speak the target out of existence.

[infinitypanda]

Visualization is to create pictures in your mind depicting things. Time cannot be depicted through pictures, but in the progression of them. Since the spell only indicates visualization of the plane itself, the progression of images required for the spells can't show any time trait other than the Normal Time trait. Magic can't normally be seen, much less visualized and that's only for effects that are currently active. The Magic Trait of a plane can't be detected through the use of any spell in D&D, and as such cannot be visualized.

Just because I can't do it is immaterial. The fact that it's impossible due to the way the brain is wired, is more important.

Visualization does not just mean pictures. You could create a mental movie, sped up. There. Visualized fast time. As for magic, eh. It's an Int 19+ wizard. Who's to say he can't?

[deuxhero]

For the oriignal question. The latest arcane version is in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) as is the Psionic version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm) (note the changes in the psionic one).

[Zaq]

I dunno, Unmaking is pretty good.

You literally speak the target out of existence.

I assume you're talking about Unname, the 9th level spell, and not the capstone ability of the Bereft PrC, right?

Thematically, it's fantastic. In actual gameplay, it's nowhere near what a 9th level spell should be able to do, particularly for the amount of effort you have to put into it.

As for the Bereft ability, it's not worth taking five levels of Bereft for. Again, thematically very interesting, but mechanically you're worse than being a Truenamer. This is not a hard bar to clear, but they manage to fail. Don't be a Bereft.

[taltamir]

I dunno, Unmaking is pretty good.

You literally speak the target out of existence.

if you can break the skill system enough to succeed on the check, then yes...
you don't even need to be anywhere near it, just know your target...

there is a similar one for dispelling... it can be an epic permanent spell effect cast by the god of magic himself, if you make the DC you dispell it.

if you are curious about truenaming:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269

[Yuki Akuma]

I assume you're talking about Unname, the 9th level spell, and not the capstone ability of the Bereft PrC, right?

Thematically, it's fantastic. In actual gameplay, it's nowhere near what a 9th level spell should be able to do, particularly for the amount of effort you have to put into it.

As for the Bereft ability, it's not worth taking five levels of Bereft for. Again, thematically very interesting, but mechanically you're worse than being a Truenamer. This is not a hard bar to clear, but they manage to fail. Don't be a Bereft.

That's the one. And sure, mechanically there are better spells, but it's fun.

(Although the fact that you can be halfway across the world and then unname someone is a good bonus.)

[nekomata2]

Visualization does not just mean pictures. You could create a mental movie, sped up. There. Visualized fast time. As for magic, eh. It's an Int 19+ wizard. Who's to say he can't?

I would figure the guy who is both brilliant and has been manipulating magic since he was a child would certainly be able to visualize magic.

[taltamir]

you can visualize something being green, yes?
a wizard can visualize something being the color of magic :P (I love diskworld!)

[Gralamin]

That's the one. And sure, mechanically there are better spells, but it's fun.

(Although the fact that you can be halfway across the world and then unname someone is a good bonus.)

Unname is medium range.

[Yuki Akuma]

Unname is medium range.

God damn what am I thinking of then?

I really should get my books out before I post about stuff from them.

[Zeful]

Visualization does not just mean pictures. You could create a mental movie, sped up. There. Visualized fast time. As for magic, eh. It's an Int 19+ wizard. Who's to say he can't?

What is a movie if not a series of pictures? And how is that visualized fast time? It's only frame of reference is itself, so it's obviously moving at a normal pace with that comparison.

The fact that there is nothing to visualize. There are no visual cues to tell you the magic trait of a plane, and there are no spells that can create such cues. Without knowledge of what a magic trait looks like, you cannot visualize it.

[Brother Oni]

You could regard this classic image as a visualisation of time:


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/06/article-0-02EC002200000578-483_468x326.jpg

I think you're taking a too strict a view on visualising; while you can't visualise time in the sense that you're taking it, you can do so quite easily in 4d mathematics and by thinking about things from a non-linear view:

For example, when you cross a road, the reason why you aren't hit by a car, even though you and the car obviously occupy the same space, is that you and the car don't occupy the same space at the same time.

I'd imagine that most people would be able to imagine how to cross a road without occupying the same space and time as an oncoming vehicle.

[lesser_minion]

The spell Genesis was written before Manual of the Planes, IIRC, and it's never received a proper update.

That's why there is no rule saying that you can't set the new plane's traits, and why the lack of a rule shouldn't be taken as approval for doing the same thing, no matter what the corresponding psionic power might say.

[Inhuman Bot]

the sad part is that it took me a while to get...

While I still don't get it. :smallconfused:

[Zeful]

I never said you couldn't visualize time. You just can't, for the purposes of the spell Genesis, visualize any time trait other than normal. Because the visualization for the spell is limited to the plane, and thus lacks the proper the references to determine whether it's anything other than normal time.

[taltamir]

While I still don't get it. :smallconfused:

the first chapter for the bible (as in, the IRL christian bible) is called "genesis".

The op asked what book is "genesis" (the spell) in, this guy replied that it is in the bible.

[Yuki Akuma]

I never said you couldn't visualize time. You just can't, for the purposes of the spell Genesis, visualize any time trait other than normal. Because the visualization for the spell is limited to the plane, and thus lacks the proper the references to determine whether it's anything other than normal time.

Where does it say the visualization is limited to the plane?

[sofawall]

Just because I can't do it is immaterial. The fact that it's impossible due to the way the brain is wired, is more important.

Fine. I'm an Elven Wizard. Can I do it now?

[Zeful]

Fine. I'm an Elven Wizard. Can I do it now?

No, I never specified race. If you've never seen it, you can't visualize it.

[sofawall]

No, I never specified race. If you've never seen it, you can't visualize it.

You mentioned that the brain isn't wired to do that. How do we know the elven brain is wired the same way as a human one?

You'll note that I quoted that part on purpose. I typically tend to address parts that I quote, and if I'm not addressing part of a post, I snip it out of the quote.

[Zeful]

You mentioned that the brain isn't wired to do that. How do we know the elven brain is wired the same way as a human one?

If you have never seen a quadrupedal animal would you be able to visualize one accurately?

If you knew nothing of atomic theory, would you be able to describe an atom?

It doesn't matter how your brain is wired, you can't extrapolate the appearance of something you've never seen. It requires information you don't have.

[Yuki Akuma]

Exactly - so you have absolutely no idea whether or not you could visualize a time or magic trait, as you've never seen one.

[jokey665]

It doesn't matter how your brain is wired, you can't extrapolate the appearance of something you've never seen. It requires information you don't have.

So people don't have imaginations. Got it. I had never seen a six-legged thing but I had a vague idea of what one would look like before I saw Avatar, and guess what? They look pretty dang close to how I imagined they would.

[Yuki Akuma]

So people don't have imaginations. Got it. I had never seen a six-legged thing but I had a vague idea of what one would look like before I saw Avatar, and guess what? They look pretty dang close to how I imagined they would.

You've never seen an insect?

[Zeful]

Exactly - so you have absolutely no idea whether or not you could visualize a time or magic trait, as you've never seen one.

There are also no cues that demonstrate a time or magic trait within the planes, so trying to visualize such a trait for the spell is impossible.

[jokey665]

You've never seen an insect?

Sorry, six-legged mammal-esque creature. With a hammerhead.

[Yuki Akuma]

There are also no cues that demonstrate a time or magic trait within the planes, so trying to visualize such a trait for the spell is impossible.

How do you know? Have you ever been to a plane with a different time or magic trait? Are you a wizard with access to various divination spells?

[Mystic Muse]

Sorry, six-legged mammal-esque creature. With a hammerhead.

no but you've seen each of those things SEPERATELY meaning you could potentially combine them.

However you have never seen time. and neither has your wizard

[jokey665]

However you have never seen time. and neither has your wizard

He has spells, you don't know what he's seen. :smalleek:

[Zeful]

How do you know? Have you ever been to a plane with a different time or magic trait? Are you a wizard with access to various divination spells?

How would a plane with a different time or magic trait look different? What visual cues exist that allow for you to guess how a fast time or dead magic plane look like?


He has spells, you don't know what he's seen.Detect Magic only shows active spells and magic effects, and there are no spells that show any planar traits.

He may have spells, but I can know, quite clearly what he's seen.

[Insectile]

Wouldn't a Wizard of Epic Level already have access to the ability to use Time Stop? :smallconfused: I mean, considering it is only a ninth level spell. If so, they know what the world looks like while Time is slowed, stopped, etc. and could probably extrapolate from that different time-traits for their personal plane.

[arguskos]

Gentlemen, you're missing the key thing here: there is a Plane of TIME. Our hypothetical mage can go there, faff about for awhile, and come back. Then, when he casts Genesis, he can desire that the time flows as fast as the winds of Time blow. :smallcool: Bam! Fast time, natches.

[Yuki Akuma]

How would a plane with a different time or magic trait look different? What visual cues exist that allow for you to guess how a fast time or dead magic plane look like?

I don't know. Do you? Have you ever seen them?

I don't think you seem to be understanding me here. There is absolutely no way for you to know one way or another. It's completely pointless to argue that a wizard can't determine a plane's time trait because he can't visualize it, because you don't know what he can and cannot visualise.

You are not a wizard.

[Zeful]

Wouldn't a Wizard of Epic Level already have access to the ability to use Time Stop? :smallconfused: I mean, considering it is only a ninth level spell. If so, they know what the world looks like while Time is slowed, stopped, etc. and could probably extrapolate from that different time-traits for their personal plane.

The plane created by Genesis is empty, all visual cues from Time Stop are useless.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why are you talking with such authority about something that's completely impossible to know?

Serious question.

If you don't think the Genesis spell should be able to alter time traits, fine. Say so! I don't think it should be able to either! But don't try to give some in-world explanation for why it can't, because it doesn't work. You cannot possibly know what it's like to cast a Genesis spell and create a demiplane.

[sonofzeal]

Genesis never references planar traits, which also don't fit on the list of examples of things you can change. RAW is debatable, with all sorts of semantics about "visualize" this and "most" (but not all) that. RAI seems fairly clear to me though, as planar traits are such a huge and important category that, if they were intended, you'd think they would be mentioned or at very least alluded to. Given my knowledge of WotC, I find it far easier to believe they just never considered that, and the addition of the line about time traits in the other was because that particular exploit became famous and got back to them, and is not intended as a blanket acceptance of all other planar traits.

[Zeful]

Why are you talking with such authority about something that's completely impossible to know?

Serious question.

One part Devil's Advocate, one part disdain for Wizards (the class, not the company), one part desire to balance absurd spells without changing the text.

[Yuki Akuma]

One part Devil's Advocate, one part disdain for Wizards (the class, not the company), one part desire to balance absurd spells without changing the text.

Stop playing devil's advocate at me when I'm playing devil's advocate, damnit!

[taltamir]

One part Devil's Advocate, one part disdain for Wizards (the class, not the company), one part desire to balance absurd spells without changing the text.

such desires and ire do not grant authority, nor do they make you right.

granted they need to be reigned in... thats what DMs are for, to say "WOTC were idiots when they made this, I am gonna bad / nerf this"

[Zeful]

such desires and ire do not grant authority, nor do they make you right.

granted they need to be reigned in... thats what DMs are for, to say "WOTC were idiots when they made this, I am gonna bad / nerf this"

True, which is why I'm picking nits. Forcing a literal interpretation of visualization. I'm trying to provide logic for the decision, so that should a player ask "Why?" there will be an answer. It may not be supported by the RAW, but it makes sense.

[omglolnub]

On the issue of "your character has never seen time"...

Let's say my character is The Doctor, or another Timelord. They can see time, and all of it's characteristics. So, would a Timelord Wizard not be able to envision time working differently on his plane? And would a character in the Realms not be able to study The Weave, and have an idea how it works/looks, and thus be able to alter magic on his plane?

[taltamir]

True, which is why I'm picking nits. Forcing a literal interpretation of visualization. I'm trying to provide logic for the decision, so that should a player ask "Why?" there will be an answer. It may not be supported by the RAW, but it makes sense.

PC: Why?
DM: Because it will break the game to pieces, wotc are idiots for allowing it in the first place.
PC: Ok, yea that makes sense... I actually thought it was rather abusive myself...

[Gralamin]

What if you have a wizard on the material plane cast gate to a plane that has an altered time trait? Since it creates a window, you'll be able to "see" the plane under the effects of the different time with respect to the material plane. You now very definitely have a way of visualizing the different flow of time.

[taltamir]

and have the wizard cast "true seeing" first :)

actually, why not just scry time itself?

[Zaydos]

But you can't scry on time any better than you can on the air.

I actually didn't mean to start something this long, I just wondered if there was a version other than the ELH that people were using since it was published after the Manual of the Planes (I think, I'm basing this on memories from back when I first got Dragon Magazine so years ago, but I think I had Manual of the Planes before ELH came out and I think there was a Dragon Magazine covering it months before the one with ELH stuff that came out right before the ELH). Which is what lead me to wonder if it was RAW to affect time traits at all since I didn't see how the ELH would allow it (since planar traits were established as existing and not included in the effect).

That said, I want to watch what comes of this... I might be a bad person :smallredface:

[SaintRidley]

No, I never specified race. If you've never seen it, you can't visualize it.



H.P. Lovecraft never saw Cthulhu...

[Zaydos]

H.P. Lovecraft never saw Cthulhu...

And Lovecraft never fully describes his monsters (Cthulhu included) only that part which the human mind can visualize, with the statement that their true horror was that even seeing them you still could not properly picture them and your mind shut it out or shut itself off. Not the best point. Besides Cthulhu is not actually that scary for Lovecraft even, and is one of the more human creatures.

Now Azathoth might have been another story.

[PhoenixRivers]

What book is Genesis in?

Why, any Rock 'n Roll history book worth its salt, of course.

[Sliver]

A Time Lord Wizard could do it!

[Zaydos]

A Time Lord Wizard could do it!

Well just look at the Doctor. He's not even a wizard and he can do anything. Once you have Time Lord Wizards running around... you have a concentrated mixture of awesomeness that was not meant to be and the entire cosmology implodes.

[sofawall]

If you have never seen a quadrupedal animal would you be able to visualize one accurately?

Assuming I had never seen any animal with 4 legs, if someone came up to me and said "There are animals with 4 legs. Draw one." I think I could manage.

For that matter, how about I draw an animal with 47 legs. I've yet to see one, or even imagine one (until this moment) but I pulled it off just fine.


If you knew nothing of atomic theory, would you be able to describe an atom?


Somehow, knowing nothing of atomic theory, I don't think I'd be able to describe it.

However, I think I can fairly accurately imagine, in my head, time moving faster than normal. That's visualizing, isn't it?

[Gralamin]

Assuming I had never seen any animal with 4 legs, if someone came up to me and said "There are animals with 4 legs. Draw one." I think I could manage.

For that matter, how about I draw an animal with 47 legs. I've yet to see one, or even imagine one (until this moment) but I pulled it off just fine.

Well, assuming Zeful was using a Humeian view, (I don't know if he was) then you are taking the base sensations of "Leg" and a few other things and combining them together to get a more complicated idea of a creature with 47 legs.

Or, as my Epistemology teacher put it: "I have never seen a laser rocket cat, which is a cat with laser vision and the ability to shoot rockets from its back, but I have seen lasers, rockets, and cats, and so I can combine the three to make laser rocket cat."

Equivalently, whether you have the ability to reduce time to a sensation would, according to Hume, be the question of whether you have the ability to visualize it. Which is where my Gate trick comes in: It will surely give you an idea, if for some reason you do not know.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well just look at the Doctor. He's not even a wizard and he can do anything. Once you have Time Lord Wizards running around... you have a concentrated mixture of awesomeness that was not meant to be and the entire cosmology implodes.

To be fair, the Doctor is pretty awesome even for a Time Lord. Most Time Lords are frankly rather naff.

[Brother Oni]

If you knew nothing of atomic theory, would you be able to describe an atom?


Nobody's seen an atom, much less a sub-atomic particle - we simply don't have microscopes that have that sort of resolution yet.

We can still manipulate them and have representative visualisations, both of their structure and their interactions.

[PhoenixRivers]

Nobody's seen an atom, much less a sub-atomic particle - we simply don't have microscopes that have that sort of resolution yet.

We can still manipulate them and have representative visualisations, both of their structure and their interactions.

Perhaps you're not aware of Electron Microscopes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_microscope)?

[Yuki Akuma]

To be fair, electron microscopes don't let you see atoms either - they give you a representation that you can make sense of instead.

Atoms don't actually look like that. Or they wouldn't if they looked like anything...

[PhoenixRivers]

To be fair, electron microscopes don't let you see atoms either - they give you a representation that you can make sense of instead.

Atoms don't actually look like that. Or they wouldn't if they looked like anything...

To be fair, your statement is as accurate as saying:

"Your television doesn't let you see actors. It gives you a representation that you can make sense of instead."

While true, you are not physically viewing the atom (just as you are not physically viewing Jimmy Stewart when "It's a Wonderful Life" is on the telly), you are seeing a magnified image of it, that is both correct and accurate.

You say atoms don't look like anything. Wikipedia says that electron microscopes can and do see on the atomic level, and provide 1,000,000x magnification of images.

I'll go with the Wiki, if it's the same to you.

[Oslecamo]

To be fair, electron microscopes don't let you see atoms either - they give you a representation that you can make sense of instead.

We can clearly observe their frontiers. Wich isn't too shabby.

After all, I technicaly can't see other people. I can see their skins. And most of the time not even that, I'll be looking at their clothes.



Atoms don't actually look like that. Or they wouldn't if they looked like anything...
Their frontiers of an atom are spherical due to the electron shielding. All evidence and theory points to it.

Also, as for the OP, the argument of "It doesn't say I cannot" is invalid, because if you acept it, then fighters can cast wish as a free action whitout exp cost, because it doesn't say on the rules that fighters cannot do it.

If the rules of a spell had to specify everything you cannot do with them, then we would need an encyclopedia on each one. Magic missile cannot create demiplanes, replicate polymorph, teleport you, give an enanchment bonus to attacks or skills, create money, give or remove exp...

[Ashiel]

I don't suppose anyone has heard of tactile visualization? Basically the human brain is capable of visualizing without the use of images through other senses such as touch. I've never been stabbed but I can imagine what it would feel like, and I just might be close to accurate; all I know is it's a feeling I've never actually experienced but could imagine.

At the same time, I know what it feels like to have time seem to drag on endlessly. I know what it feels like to have time fly. A matter of perception, but a good basis for an actual visualization of how the plane works. Merely imagining the material plane that you know, and a world where a day occurs in the span of a minute, perhaps even using metaphorical images such as water clocks showing different times between them.

Last time I checked, genesis as described in the Manual of the Planes and later reprinted in the Epic Level Handbook allow for you to set the traits of your planes, including time - because time is described as a trait in both the MotP and the 3.5 DMG. However, people DID abuse this fact, and made mention of it on popular internet forums (including the WotC forums).

When the Psionic version was released in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, it was specifically denied the ability to manipulate the time trait because it was so abuse-able. That said, I don't recall the spell version having been changed since its publications.

It's fascinating to see the evolution of the mechanics so. :smallamused:

Food for thought. :smallsmile:
=========================================

Also, Merry Christmas! :smallsmile:

[Aquillion]

Except it mentions not allowing rare materials to be created, thus leaving you with dirt and little else.
Rare is relative.

[grautry]

The whole discussion about visualization is pointless anyway.

Hint: there are spell research rules.

So, even if the inhumanly godlike mind of your wizard is incapable of visualizing the passage of time, he can just research a spell that allows for him to literally see the passage of time. He then hops through a couple of planes with different planar traits and literally sees how time flows.

Cast Genesis. ???. Profit.

Not possible? Planar bind an outsider whose purview is time(I'm quite sure you'll find one somewhere). Use one spell or another to read his mind and see how it visualizes the passage of time.

Cast Genesis. ???. Profit.

This still not possible? Find a deity whose concern is the passage of time. Plane shift/Teleport to the nearest temple and ask a Cleric to commune with the deity for you. Offer your services in exchange for information about how to visualize the passage of time.

Cast Genesis. ???. Profit.

Come on, you're talking about the capabilities of a nigh-epic level Wizard. Are you seriously saying that something as minor as visualization of the passage of time would stop him?

In-universe reasons just don't work(unless they're on the scale of "an overdeity will kill you if you cast Genesis with an altered time trait") because a Wizard capable of casting Genesis is capable of accomplishing almost anything.

If you don't want for Genesis to alter time traits just say it can't alter time traits. It's as simple as that.

[taltamir]

Rare is relative.

you have just spent more thought on this spell that WOTC ever did. Congrats.


If you don't want for Genesis to alter time traits just say it can't alter time traits. It's as simple as that.
Yes, and such honesty is a lot better than the alternative

[Lysander]

For the record the spell Genesis only refers to setting the environment. The word "trait" does not appear once in the spell. The only way you can control traits is if your DM considers time, gravity, magic, sentience to be comparable to "atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

And if you can't even pick the precise layout of the terrain, who says you can pick the precise composition of the terrain? Remember, it's just drawing on whatever loose bits of vapor and "promatter" are floating by in the ethereal plane. Asking for "a plane of gold" might only bring in as much gold as happens to be floating by, which could be a tiny microscopic fraction of the overall plane.

Finally, your plane isn't actually it's own dimension. It's just a dense bubble on the ethereal plane:


a local density fluctuation precipitates the creation of a demiplane...surrounding ethereal vapors and protomatter

[taltamir]

Finally, your plane isn't actually it's own dimension. It's just a dense bubble on the ethereal plane:

thats an advantage, that means you don't age there like on the prime material.

as for environment... why make a plane of gold when you can just scry a suitable portion of the infinite plain of earth which is made out of a solid chunk of diamond / gold, then teleport there and claim it... it is infinite anyways.

[Zaydos]

thats an advantage, that means you don't age there like on the prime material.

as for environment... why make a plane of gold when you can just scry a suitable portion of the infinite plain of earth which is made out of a solid chunk of diamond / gold, then teleport there and claim it... it is infinite anyways.

Ethereal isn't an advantage because the Ethereal Plane has a normal time trait, although I thought Genesis was Astral anyway (know they were Ethereal in 2e though they change things on me).

As for the other? Scrying doesn't work that way. You need to send a creature to that place then scry on the creature.

[jokey665]

Ethereal isn't an advantage because the Ethereal Plane has a normal time trait, although I thought Genesis was Astral anyway (know they were Ethereal in 2e though they change things on me).

The arcane version says ethereal, the psionic says astral.

[JaronK]

From the SRD, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm :


The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.

Planar traits are clearly part of the environment of the plane, and you determine the environment of the plane. Furthermore, you're explicitly allowed to have most any desire you can visualize, with a few specific exceptions (no construction or life). It's that open ended wording that does it, when combined with listed planar traits elsewhere. You pick the Flowing Time trait (set to any value you desire) and the Timeless trait (so you don't age any faster, since that makes you age as though you were on the material plane the whole time when you leave).

But yes, by any logical definition of "environment" planar traits count as part of it. And it is your own plane... you just draw the stuff of the ethereal plane to do it. It does state:


The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes.

And certainly a caster can visualize the concept of sped up time. Remember, you're probably a Wizard who's been casting Haste for ages and can fire off a Timestop if he so desires.

JaronK

[Lysander]

Ethereal isn't an advantage because the Ethereal Plane has a normal time trait, although I thought Genesis was Astral anyway (know they were Ethereal in 2e though they change things on me).


It's ethereal. The spell can only be cast on the ethereal plane, and slowly turns ethereal vapor into solid land. So no slow aging.

Also the astral isn't that good for immortality because...


The danger of a timeless plane is that once one leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging do occur retroactively.

So you can be immortal there you just can't leave. Ever. Forget old age. What if you haven't drunk water in a few days?

[Flickerdart]

So you can be immortal there you just can't leave. Ever. Forget old age. What if you haven't drunk water in a few days?
There are many easier ways to get immortality. The sped-up time trait is used to Plane Shift home, rest, prepare new spells and come back in the round after you left to melt your foe's face.

[Lysander]

There are many easier ways to get immortality. The sped-up time trait is used to Plane Shift home, rest, prepare new spells and come back in the round after you left to melt your foe's face.

That's the opposite of immortality. If anything you'd age and die sooner.

But as I said, Genesis never mentions controlling a plane's traits, only its environment. I personally think controlling time is different enough from temperature and terrain that it doesn't fall under the "such as" clause. And any DM that doesn't want their universe broken should rule the same way.

Remember, the plane only reflects the caster's desire and only "most any", not any desire is possible. It doesn't necessarily fully conform to their precise ideal. Heck, they can't even determine exactly how the terrain turns out.

[Gralamin]

That's the opposite of immortality. If anything you'd age and die sooner.

But as I said, Genesis never mentions controlling a plane's traits, only its environment. I personally think controlling time is different enough from temperature and terrain that it doesn't fall under the "such as" clause. And any DM that doesn't want their universe broken should rule the same way.

Remember, the plane only reflects the caster's desire and only "most any", not any desire is possible. It doesn't necessarily fully conform to their precise ideal. Heck, they can't even determine exactly how the terrain turns out.

I just assume the Psionic text / Truenaming text is the most updated version, and make everything else look at that. RAW of this is questionable, but it makes sense.

[JaronK]

That's the opposite of immortality. If anything you'd age and die sooner.

But as I said, Genesis never mentions controlling a plane's traits, only its environment.

I think you're going to have a tough time not calling planar traits part of the environment, which has that nice open ended "any desire the spellcaster can visualize" clause to it.

For the record, the definition of environment:


# the totality of surrounding conditions; "he longed for the comfortable environment of his living room"
# the area in which something exists or lives; "the country--the flat agricultural surround"

Is a planar trait covering the whole demiplane not part of "the totality of the surrounding conditions" or "the area in which something exists or lives?"

Note that the divine version of genesis is worded exactly like the arcane, with one extra line at the end that says you can't alter time traits. If they didn't intend you to alter traits at all, I'd imagine they'd have said that. So the divine one with the same wording assumes you can alter other traits.

And yes, it is indeed a demiplane. It's not still part of the ethereal plane, it just draws the stuff of the ethereal plane into it and is coterminous with it. It's right there in the first line of the spell.

JaronK

[JaronK]

Remember, the plane only reflects the caster's desire and only "most any", not any desire is possible. It doesn't necessarily fully conform to their precise ideal. Heck, they can't even determine exactly how the terrain turns out.

"Most any" is in reference to the fact that they can't do certain constructions or make live stuff.

Again, read the arcane and divine versions of Genesis before you continue arguing this. It should become VERY clear.

JaronK

[Lysander]

Is a planar trait covering the whole demiplane not part of "the totality of the surrounding conditions" or "the area in which something exists or lives?"

Note that the divine version of genesis is worded exactly like the arcane, with one extra line at the end that says you can't alter time traits. If they didn't intend you to alter traits at all, I'd imagine they'd have said that. So the divine one with the same wording assumes you can alter other traits.


Basic physical traits are not planar traits. It explicitly clarifies the type of factors you decide. Deciding "atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain" is not the same as time, alignment, morphic, and magic traits.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Basic physical traits are not planar traits. It explicitly clarifies the type of factors you decide. Deciding "atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain" is not the same as time, alignment, morphic, and magic traits.What about Gravity? And I find it interesting that you think it's easier to picture temperature than Morphic.

[JaronK]

Basic physical traits are not planar traits. It explicitly clarifies the type of factors you decide. Deciding "atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain" is not the same as time, alignment, morphic, and magic traits.

Again, please see Divine Genesis. Why would they specify that you can't control temporal traits with that spell if they intended that you not control any traits at all? Why not either clarify by banning all planar traits, or leave it out under the faulty assumption that it would be clear anyway? Banning just temporal traits actually indicates that it's assumed the other traits are fair game.

And since Arcane Genesis is the exact same word for word spell without that line about temporal traits, that indicates that all traits are indeed fair game as they're certainly part of the environment. Nothing in the spell restricts you to "Basic physical traits." Environment means "the totality of the surrounding conditions" not "basic physical traits." Even still, I'd think the fabric of space time is about as basic a physical trait as you can get.

JaronK

[JonestheSpy]

Just to shift things a little bit: Is there anyone out there who would actually come forward and declare that as a DM, they would let players use Genesis with the time-altering trait? If so, why?

[Xenogears]

Just to shift things a little bit: Is there anyone out there who would actually come forward and declare that as a DM, they would let players use Genesis with the time-altering trait? If so, why?

I prolly would. Mostly because the only people I know that I could/would play with are much more likely to want to do it for some kinda bizzare idea than for a mechanical advantage.

[JaronK]

Just to shift things a little bit: Is there anyone out there who would actually come forward and declare that as a DM, they would let players use Genesis with the time-altering trait? If so, why?

Not a freaking chance. It's a total game breaker. Timeless is the farthest I'd let them go. Of course, I'd also nerf a lot of other spells. I don't like DMing for high level casters, and more often than not just request that my players not play casters if I'm doing a high level game.

JaronK

[taltamir]

So you can be immortal there you just can't leave. Ever. Forget old age. What if you haven't drunk water in a few days?

ring of sustenance... you don't need to eat or drink anymore.

[Lysander]

What about Gravity? And I find it interesting that you think it's easier to picture temperature than Morphic.

I consider the visualization argument irrelevant. It's more along the lines of what the spell can't do. It says the factors you control are things "such as" and then it lists a few basic physical characteristics. It's like going to a restaurant, having the waitress say "order anything you want", handing you a menu of the things you can order, and then you asking for a harrier jet. Sentences have to be taken in context.

There's also this rule from the planes description:


Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane has the normal time trait.

The Genesis spell never mentions time flow in its description. Leaving it open to interpretation is not the same as noting it.



ring of sustenance... you don't need to eat or drink anymore.

That would solve the hunger problem. Age is still an issue though, but only if you don't want to age.

[JaronK]

Again Lysander, have you looked at the Divine version of the spell?

JaronK

[Xenogears]

Again Lysander, have you looked at the Divine version of the spell?

JaronK

The alteration of the text for the divine one can barely be considered to be implying that the lack of said alteration means it is allowed in the original.

Say for instance if I take my son to a store and he starts hitting people. Then a week later I tell him not to hit people in THIS store when we go to a store. Very few people would think that I had given him permission to hit people in the first store.

[FishAreWet]

The alteration of the text for the divine one can barely be considered to be implying that the lack of said alteration means it is allowed in the original.

Say for instance if I take my son to a store and he starts hitting people. Then a week later I tell him not to hit people in THIS store when we go to a store. Very few people would think that I had given him permission to hit people in the first store.

That's not the point.

[Lysander]

Again Lysander, have you looked at the Divine version of the spell?

JaronK

I don't think a clarification is the same as saying that clarification doesn't apply to something else.

[Xenogears]

That's not the point.

I'm fairly certain that the position of the person who made the post I was responding to is that since the divine version explicitly forbids time traits but no other planar traits it therefore allows all other time traits and that furthermore that implies that the original spell was meant to allow ALL planar traits including time traits.

My stance is that that logic is flawed. So Im not exactly sure what you mean by your post.

[2xMachina]

It's an epic spell. Of course it is broken.

I'd say WoTC didn't bother to errata it because it's an epic spell (psionic genesis is not epic), and having a fast time/anti-matter plane is no more broken than any other epic spell you can cheese up.

EDIT: I'd allow it as a DM. Epic spells are already crazy anyway. Pre-epic? No.

You get to choose Environment, thus Planar trait, thus magic/time traits. Works by RAW.

Also, try visualizing atmosphere or temperature. I'm pretty sure that's as abstract as magic/time traits. Since it is given as an example, I'd say that the visualization of abstract things isn't as tough as it seems.

[JaronK]

It's not an epic spell. It's level 9.

And the difference with the bat scenario is like you saying "son, go beat the crap out of anyone you want" and the son grabs a bat and beats up a cop. If your response is "no no, don't beat up cops with that bat" did you really mean that you didn't want him to use a bat? I don't think so.

With Genesis, they say you can have any environment you can visualize, minus a few restraints (no contruction, no life). Environment of course does mean planar traits, by any reasonable definition of the word "Environment." Then with Divine Genesis they add in the part about not abusing time traits. That strongly suggests that they were perfectly aware that the spell still worked on other traits, and left those in, otherwise they would have said "Planar Traits are the same as X plane."

Which reminds me, there's no actual default planar traits. Do you use those of the Ethereal plane? The Material? The Astral? If you can't set them, what in the rules suggests which traits to use?

JaronK

[olentu]

It's an epic spell. Of course it is broken.

I'd say WoTC didn't bother to errata it because it's an epic spell (psionic genesis is not epic), and having a fast time/anti-matter plane is no more broken than any other epic spell you can cheese up.

EDIT: I'd allow it as a DM. Epic spells are already crazy anyway.

Also, try visualizing atmosphere or temperature. I'm pretty sure that's as abstract as magic/time traits. Since it is given as an example, I'd say that the visualization of abstract things isn't as tough as it seems.

Er it is the specific not an epic spell example as I recall.

[FishAreWet]

GENESIS IS NOT AN EPIC SPELL
holy cow why do so many people think it is? It's 9th level!


I'm fairly certain that the position of the person who made the post I was responding to is that since the divine version explicitly forbids time traits but no other planar traits it therefore allows all other time traits and that furthermore that implies that the original spell was meant to allow ALL planar traits including time traits.

My stance is that that logic is flawed. So Im not exactly sure what you mean by your post.

The point is that traits are allowed, as only time traits are explicitly banned for divine. It's similar, but it reaches the end result a different way.

[2xMachina]

Huh? Really?

But where it is...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

EDIT: Eh, my mistake. Why they stick a non-epic spell on the epic page, I don't know.

[JaronK]

Understandable mistake. A lot of people make it. They put it there because it's in the Epic handbook, but it's not actually an epic spell.

JaronK

[2xMachina]

I don't have the Epic Handbook. Is there justifications for not having access to genesis before epic even when it's not an epic spell? Like, it's a 9th lvl spell, but only epics can cast it.

[JaronK]

Nope. It's a perfectly normal (totally broken) 9th level spell. Heck, a Shadowcraft Mage can fire it off without even paying Exp costs as a standard action.

It's much like how one of the better archery feats is actually in a psionic book, despite having nothing to do with psionics.

JaronK

[Xenogears]

And the difference with the bat scenario is like you saying "son, go beat the crap out of anyone you want" and the son grabs a bat and beats up a cop. If your response is "no no, don't beat up cops with that bat" did you really mean that you didn't want him to use a bat? I don't think so.

Which reminds me, there's no actual default planar traits. Do you use those of the Ethereal plane? The Material? The Astral? If you can't set them, what in the rules suggests which traits to use?

JaronK

First of all. Time trait is considered to be same as on prime material unless otherwise suggested so that answers your last question.

Your counterexample makes no sense. The Genesis spell does not say go mess with planar traits and then say no not this one. It might imply that you can. I wouldn't consider time and gravity to be part of the environment. It is not objectively obvious that they are part of the environment either. It is certainly a valid interpretation but not the only one.

And banning the use of time traits does not give permission to use other planar traits. If you told me you like to burn stuff and I told you not to burn down my house it certainly isn't implying that it is ok to burn some other persons house down. It's the same thing here.

[JaronK]

First of all. Time trait is considered to be same as on prime material unless otherwise suggested so that answers your last question.

What about the rest of them? All the rest of the traits? Does it use Ethereal plane gravity, or material? If you can set Gravity, why not time? They're both traits that are clearly the environment.


Your counterexample makes no sense. The Genesis spell does not say go mess with planar traits and then say no not this one. It might imply that you can. I wouldn't consider time and gravity to be part of the environment. It is not objectively obvious that they are part of the environment either. It is certainly a valid interpretation but not the only one.

That's the thing... it does, just not explicitly. Just like saying "go beat people up" allows for the use of a weapon, "any environment you can visualize" includes things like environments that are on fire (fire dominant), environments with 0G, and environments with altered time. The fact that a later spell then said "but don't mess with this one planar trait" makes it explicit that the rest of the traits are fine to mess with.

If I tell you to go beat up everyone you see, but don't use the bat on a cop, does that not clearly imply that you can use the bat elsewhere? Otherwise, I'd say "but don't use a weapon."

JaronK

[Lysander]

Here's your answer:


Normal Gravity

Most planes have gravity similar to that of the Material Plane. The usual rules for ability scores, carrying capacity, and encumbrance apply. Unless otherwise noted in a description, it is assumed every plane has the normal gravity trait.


Normal Time

This trait describes the way time passes on the Material Plane. One hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the Material Plane. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane has the normal time trait.

Genesis does not note either in its description, which means the demiplane uses the default settings.

Genesis is actually somewhat limited. I don't think it would let you create a giant void for example, the spell says it lets you determine the shape of the terrain, not whether there is terrain or not. You could put a skull shaped mountain on that terrain though to build your castle on top of though, assuming you grew the plane big enough.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

(on gravity/time) Genesis does not note either in its description, which means the demiplane uses the default settings. So, what direction is down?

[Lysander]

So, what direction is down?

Probably whichever way is down on the plane that ethereal plane is linked to.

[Flickerdart]

Probably whichever way is down on the plane that ethereal plane is linked to.
The Ethereal Plane is linked to all planes, isn't it?

[Lysander]

The Ethereal Plane is linked to all planes, isn't it?

As I understand it each material plane has its own ethereal plane, perfectly overlaying every part of it. Other planes may or may not have an ethereal plane.

These separate ethereal planes may be connected to the deep ethereal, which is where demiplanes like Ravenloft exist. The deep ethereal doesn't overlay any material plane.

Since the deep ethereal is an optional rule it would seem that the demiplane created by Genesis is just a conversion of part of the normal ethereal plane, rather than a place in the deep ethereal. It's coterminous with the ethereal plane, rather than coexistent like the material plane is, which means that the ethereal plane doesn't overlay it, it just surrounds it. If you step past the border of your demiplane you're in the ethereal. Presumably ghosts can also float in. Imagine it kind of like a snowglobe suspended in the ethereal plane with material plane physics operating inside.

[bengosha]

The Bible?

I came here to post that! :smallcool: