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Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-24, 05:13 PM
I keep hearing in the boards that the Truenamer is broken (as in broken like monk not like broken as a wizard).
I don't have a copy of Tome of Magic so I can't read the description, so can anybody explain why it is broken please?.

Thanks in advance

hamishspence
2009-12-24, 05:15 PM
Skill checks made vs Hit dice rather than Challenge rating.

Since hit dice scale much faster than CR does, eventually, it becomes impossible to make your Truespeak checks against creatures of your level.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:16 PM
The skill check DC to use truespeech scales faster than skill check bonuses.

Zeful
2009-12-24, 05:16 PM
I keep hearing in the boards that the Truenamer is broken (as in broken like monk not like broken as a wizard).
I don't have a copy of Tome of Magic so I can't read the description, so can anybody explain why it is broken please?.

Thanks in advance

To target a creature you use it's Hit Dice for the DC of the Truenaming check. Hit dice advance much, much faster than CR for monsters. You'll be fine speaking Utterances at some Undead and Humanoid where the CR and Hit Dice are pretty even, but you'll be unlikely to effect a Dragon or Demon with them.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-24, 05:18 PM
:smalleek: Skill checks vs HD?!?!?!?! no wonder they are so subpar.... anything else?

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-24, 05:18 PM
Also, the utterances are boring versions of wizard and cleric spells, and lack any originality. Or power. Except for that one that allows you to use Gate without the XP cost.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:19 PM
:smalleek: Skill checks vs HD?!?!?!?! no wonder they are so subpar.... anything else?

No, that's it. If their powers actually worked they'd be a pretty good class - their spell-like abilities are good and powerful (if not as powerful as a wizard's).

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-24, 05:20 PM
And the DC increases the more you use the same Utterance. And you don't get that many.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:20 PM
isn't it a skill check vs 2x the HD?

Nero24200
2009-12-24, 05:20 PM
Overall, they lack power (at least compared to other casters).
However, the main problem is their TrueSpeak DC, which scales at quite a rate. At first, making TrueSpeak checks isn't that hard, but as you level the problem arises. From the mid-levels onwards getting succesful checks becomes an uphill struggle.

It's considered "broken" because you essientially have to optimise like crazy just to be on par with low-power PC's.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:23 PM
they do make unbelievable healbots though...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:27 PM
they do make unbelievable healbots though...

If they can keep making the Truespeak checks, sure. But there are better ways to get arbitrarily-high amounts of healing.

onthetown
2009-12-24, 05:29 PM
Mine could hardly do anything at all. You have to hit a certain DC to be able to affect a creature with its true name, and that DC is nearly impossible to hit because you can't pour enough ranks into the skill at every level to be able to hit creatures' DCs for the appropriate CR.

I gave him weapon and armour proficiencies when I built him so he could fight and defend himself to make up for the fact that he was useless at what his actual class did (I had heard about the brokenness, too, so I wasn't taking any chances). He didn't last long. It's more a flavour class than anything else, I think.

But they really do make good healbots, as somebody's already said. Just not worth the trouble if you already have a cleric or mystic. :smallannoyed:

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-24, 05:32 PM
Let me see if I get this right:
Your utterances are skill checks against the HD of the target (I assume this is also true for the non-combat ones)

The DC of the utterances increases each time you use them

And you don't get many utterances in your carrer.

:eek:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:34 PM
Let me see if I get this right:
Your utterances are skill checks against the HD of the target (I assume this is also true for the non-combat ones)

Any utterance that affects a creature, even a beneficial one. Even if it targets you. And targets can't choose to 'fail their save', unlike with spells.

Utterances that affect areas or objects are easier to make, but you get even less of them.

Nero24200
2009-12-24, 05:34 PM
Alterting the DC of the check (Such as DC 15 + CR instead of 15 plus X2 CR) would go a long way to making the class more playable. There are other flaws, but those aren't such a problem as the TrueSpeak DC (Such as Quickned Utterences. Attempting a quickened check adds +20 to the check, which is far too much. What's more, nothing bad happens if you fail, and it's a free action to try, so theres no incentive to not try it every round in which you cast).

Zaq
2009-12-24, 05:34 PM
Truename checks are NOT vs. HD. They are vs. CR.

*cough*

Anyway, even if it's against CR and not HD, your necessary DCs increase much faster than your skill bonuses do unless you REALLY work at it. What's more, what you do isn't even all that special. You get abilities very late, there are hardly ANY good high-level Utterances (all of the level 6 LEM suck... do not talk to me about Conjunctive Gate.), and your options are really limited. Also, you can only affect one target at a time with any given utterance (if you want to fly your party up a cliff, you have to do it ONE AT A TIME), the durations tend to be insultingly short, and you have very very very few unique tricks.

I played a Truenamer for about six months, just to see if I could. I'm... done now, but you can read about my experiences in the link in my sig.

Eldariel
2009-12-24, 05:36 PM
What the hell, people? The check is specifically vs. CR for everything but PCs (and creatures without CR).

Quote:
"• To speak a creature’s truename aloud, you must succeed on a Truespeak check with a DC equal to 15 + (2 × the creature’s Challenge Rating). If you’re saying the truename of a PC, the DC is 15 + (2 × the PC’s Hit Dice). When you’re speaking a creature’s personal truename, the DC increases by 2 because those truenames are more linguistically complex."


That said, it's still way too high unless you're überpimpin' out your check. So yeah. That's why they suck.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

onthetown
2009-12-24, 05:37 PM
I played a Truenamer for about six months, just to see if I could.

Oh, jeez, I feel for you. I barely lasted two months.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-24, 05:38 PM
What the hell, people? The check is specifically vs. CR for everything but PCs (and creatures without CR).

Quote:
"• To speak a creature’s truename aloud, you must succeed on a Truespeak check with a DC equal to 15 + (2 × the creature’s Challenge Rating). If you’re saying the truename of a PC, the DC is 15 + (2 × the PC’s Hit Dice). When you’re speaking a creature’s personal truename, the DC increases by 2 because those truenames are more linguistically complex."


That said, it's still way too high unless you're überpimpin' out your check. So yeah. That's why they suck.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

It wouldn't be soo bad if it wasn't multiplied times 2.

Well thats one class that goes to my "don't play list"

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:39 PM
Ah, right, CR not HD... but as I said before, its scales at 2x...

it is 15 + (2xCR)

That means that the DC to affect a CR1 is 17, a CR2 is 19.

At level 20 the DC for a CR20 is DC55

Just from leveling you start at 4 ranks + int, and gain 1 rank per level.
So by level 20 you have 23 ranks + int and need to hit a DC55 to affect anything. Without massive boosting you cannot make it, not even once.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-24, 05:42 PM
There are commoner charger builds that deal decent damage. Truenamer is strictly better than commoner.

Why is Truenamer not on the Tier list?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:43 PM
There are commoner charger builds that deal decent damage. Truenamer is strictly better than commoner.

Why is Truenamer not on the Tier list?

it is, it is listed at the same tier as a commoner. (or was it lower?)

to affect a monster you need to roll truename against a DC of 15 + 2xCR...

this means it starts at DC17 for CR1, and goes up to DC55 at CR20...
And that is before the two limitation laws come into effect and further cripple you.

At level 20 you have 23 ranks of true speak... so how do you make a rapidly increasing DC that STARTS at DC55 for the first utterance cast that day? shenanigans.

Zaq
2009-12-24, 05:44 PM
There are commoner charger builds that deal decent damage. Truenamer is strictly better than commoner.

Why is Truenamer not on the Tier list?

Because it cannot perform its intended function without severe shenanigans. It is literally incapable of doing what it is supposed to do. As such, how it really works is impossible to rank properly in the same way you can assess what a Warblade does, what a Paladin does, and so on.

jindra34
2009-12-24, 06:01 PM
The truenamer also suffers in comparison to the invokers (Warlock and DFA) who can do similar if not better (though fewer) things with no check all day long. Something a truenamer cannot possibly do.

Akisa
2009-12-24, 06:07 PM
it is, it is listed at the same tier as a commoner. (or was it lower?)

to affect a monster you need to roll truename against a DC of 15 + 2xCR...

this means it starts at DC17 for CR1, and goes up to DC55 at CR20...
And that is before the two limitation laws come into effect and further cripple you.

At level 20 you have 23 ranks of true speak... so how do you make a rapidly increasing DC that STARTS at DC55 for the first utterance cast that day? shenanigans.
Can't you also purchase skill boosting item? 23 squared x 100 = 52,900. So it's going to be 46+ Mod. This is not counting any other bonus... So what items gives bonus to skill that can stack with item bonus?

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-24, 06:09 PM
Can't you also purchase skill boosting item? 23 squared x 100 = 52,900. So it's going to be 46+ Mod. This is not counting any other bonus... So what items gives bonus to skill that can stack with item bonus?

Don't they cap at +10? Otherwise Dimplomancy builds are missing ALOT.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 06:10 PM
Can't you also purchase skill boosting item? 23 squared x 100 = 52,900. So it's going to be 46+ Mod. This is not counting any other bonus... So what items gives bonus to skill that can stack with item bonus?

there are caps on skill boosting items. (edit, ninjad)
and remember, the two laws of utterances cause the DC to rapidly rise as you use them...

and it is a unique essential investment for every true namer... so yes, level 20 truenamer with 23 skill ranks and +10 amulet of silver tongue (+10 to truespeak). that is 33, add in int modifier...

has to hit a base DC55... he has poor chances even before the DC starts spiking... naturally he takes skill focus... etc etc... basically it is a question of how much skill breakage the DM allows, problem is, the more he allows, the more can go into GOOD skills... (remember, a human squeezing his entire body through a 2 inch hole is a DC75 escape artist check)... what is the balance DC to walk on water? (EDIT, it is 90)

EDIT: Diplomacy... DC50 to turn a helpful into a fanatic...
Fanatic -Will give life to serve you; Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon

Fanatic
The attitude of fanatic is added here. In addition to the obvious effects, any NPC whose attitude is fanatic gains a +2 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution scores, a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, and a -1 penalty to AC whenever fighting for the character or his or her cause. This attitude will remain for one day plus one day per point of the character’s Charisma bonus, at which point the NPC’s attitude will revert to its original attitude (or indifferent, if no attitude is specified).

Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill. Since it is nonmagical, it can’t be dispelled; however, any effect that suppresses or counters mind-affecting effects will affect it normally. A fanatic NPC’s attitude can’t be further adjusted by the use of skills.

Or you can just rear dragons / demons / etc with those kinds of DCs...

Milskidasith
2009-12-24, 06:31 PM
A +30 item of truespeak is 90k. It's a custom item, yes, but if follows all the rules, and is essential for any good truenamer.

Gnaeus
2009-12-24, 06:45 PM
Because it cannot perform its intended function without severe shenanigans. It is literally incapable of doing what it is supposed to do. As such, how it really works is impossible to rank properly in the same way you can assess what a Warblade does, what a Paladin does, and so on.

With heavy optimization, it is actually tier 2-3. That really requires pulling out all the stops and tricks from multiple books, and things like Gate abuse. Item Familiar, Skill Focus, Custom Skill+ item and a bunch of others I can't remember. At this level you can do all your tricks multiple times per day with low or no failure.

Without heavy optimization, it quickly drops toward low tier 5, high tier 6.

Eldariel
2009-12-24, 06:48 PM
One of the worst things about Truenamer is that it makes CR a relevant game mechanic. It's something I always ignore, and as MM demonstrates, it's not a standard. As such, making CR actually relevant for in-game purposes pretty much lets all hell break loose.

Frankly, making it equivalent to HD over CR would be 10000 times better since then games without CR could actually incorporate Truenamers. And of course, the silly "2xX" progression needs to go to hell along with skillboosting items.

Signmaker
2009-12-24, 06:50 PM
With heavy optimization, it is actually tier 2-3. That really requires pulling out all the stops and tricks from multiple books, and things like Gate abuse. Item Familiar, Skill Focus, Custom Skill+ item and a bunch of others I can't remember. At this level you can do all your tricks multiple times per day with low or no failure.

Without heavy optimization, it quickly drops toward low tier 5, high tier 6.

And played straight (as in, first try with little to no optimization intended), it's downright useless. At least monks have SOME out-of-the-box utility.

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 06:51 PM
With heavy optimization, it is actually tier 2-3. That really requires pulling out all the stops and tricks from multiple books, and things like Gate abuse. Item Familiar, Skill Focus, Custom Skill+ item and a bunch of others I can't remember. At this level you can do all your tricks multiple times per day with low or no failure.

Without heavy optimization, it quickly drops toward low tier 5, high tier 6.The tier list is actually optimization-neutral. Being deaf-mute & paraplegic does not move you up or down the tier list. You don't compare an optimized crappy class to an unoptimized good class. You compare like to like.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 06:58 PM
tier =! power... the biggest thing for tiers is versatility...
the tier is built on the idea that: what if you are given a challenge? it can be combat, it can be a massive war, it can diplomatic, it can be stealth... Some classes would be incapable of doing anything to contribute to some challenges, some will contribute little, some could easily solve anything that ever comes their way.

A wizard is higher tier than the sorcerer not because the wizard is better for combat... (more spells per day can help actually)... but because the wizard can just memorize new spells / scribe and memorize new spells and he goes from the ultimate castle builder to the ultimate sneak (invisibility + silence), the ultimate diplomat (mind control spells, or just spells that enhance your persuasion skills), the ultimate con artist (illusions, alter self, etc)...
And if you built wizard wrong? if you took all useless feats and skills? and a terrible spell selection?
well it does not matter much... just go buy some new, good spells... you now rock.

A fighter? if he wasn't build with diplomacy or sneaking in mind there is absolutely NOTHING he can do to diplomance and sneak.

A truenamer simply does not have a caster's ability to deal with different situations.

erikun
2009-12-24, 06:59 PM
An optimized Truenamer can cast the equilivant of two spells a round, every round, as a class feature. That is very useful and shouldn't be underestimated, especially when the reason that Tier 1 classes are Tier 1 is due to their versatility and ability to take multiple actions.

The problem, though, is that their usability depends completely on their ability to acquire skill-bonus items. With numerous ways to boost their Truespeak check, they can rank next to Sorcerers and Psions, if not Wizards. The problem is that +30 skill items would not be allowed for any other skill, certainly not for something like Diplomancy of Use Magic Device.

Without optimization, they are useless. Not Tier 6 - useless. A high level Truenamer can't affect anything, not enemies, not allies. A class skill that doesn't do anything isn't really an ability.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 07:22 PM
So let's get this straight.

20th level truenamer has to hit dc 55

23 for ranks
3 for skill focus
10 for amulet of the silver tongue
5 for 20 int
3 more for headband of intellect

+44 for a truenamer that starts with int 15. He hits on 11. That's a 50/50 shot without any attempt to optimize, just common sense feat, item, and ability increase choices. That honestly doesn't sound too bad to me. Especially in the event that your dm uses several lower level enemies to make up a level appropriate encounter. In a 4 on 4 PvE encounter each of the enemies, assuming they're of equal level to each other, are at party level -4, in which case you're going to effect the enemy at on a roll of 3 at level 20. Eminently acceptable to my eyes. The truenamer gets a bad rap because he has a really hard time in an optimized game, where each individual enemy is of a level equal to the party's average or perhaps higher; and each of his teammates is capable of one-shoting even these enemies. The 5 round duration on most Utterances isn't so bad when you consider that most combats in a regular game only take about 5 rounds. I, personally don't see much problem with the truenamer, but YMMV. :smallsmile:


EDIT: I nearly forgot. That skill modifier can also be increased by quite a few sources outside of the truenamer himself. Spells cast by an ally. Effects that add bonuses to int based checks, racial bonuses. I really just don't see the problem honestly. :smallwink:

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-24, 07:24 PM
Once. Then the DC increases since you spoke an utterance. And then it increases again since you spoke an utterance.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-24, 07:25 PM
{snip}

Except most of them aren't that great, and every time you use one, the DC increases by 2 for any other time you use it that day. So the ones worth using get the DC boosted pretty high by the end of the day. 5 uses and you can't use it anymore except on a natural 20.

Edit: ninjas...

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 07:33 PM
Except most of them aren't that great, and every time you use one, the DC increases by 2 for any other time you use it that day. So the ones worth using get the DC boosted pretty high by the end of the day. 5 uses and you can't use it anymore except on a natural 20.

The DC only increases if you succeed. Besides, with so many utterances to choose from that's not that big an issue, especially since several of the AoE utterances have set DC's and can be used over and over with relatively little difficulty. A spellcaster doesn't get to use his most powerful spells more than a couple times each day. So it only seems fair that a truenamer have the same restriction. The biggest problem with that comparison is that utterances always use a DC set by your truenamer level and consequently are always as difficult to resist as a spellcasters highest level spells. They also have UMD as a class skill which is something notable. I'm not saying that the Truenamer is for everyone, or every game. I'm just saying that it's not as completely worthless as some people believe/say.

Akisa
2009-12-24, 07:47 PM
So let's get this straight.

20th level truenamer has to hit dc 55

23 for ranks
3 for skill focus
10 for amulet of the silver tongue
5 for 20 int
3 more for headband of intellect

+44 for a truenamer that starts with int 15. He hits on 11. That's a 50/50 shot without any attempt to optimize, just common sense feat, item, and ability increase choices. That honestly doesn't sound too bad to me. Especially in the event that your dm uses several lower level enemies to make up a level appropriate encounter. In a 4 on 4 PvE encounter each of the enemies, assuming they're of equal level to each other, are at party level -4, in which case you're going to effect the enemy at on a roll of 3 at level 20. Eminently acceptable to my eyes. The truenamer gets a bad rap because he has a really hard time in an optimized game, where each individual enemy is of a level equal to the party's average or perhaps higher; and each of his teammates is capable of one-shoting even these enemies. The 5 round duration on most Utterances isn't so bad when you consider that most combats in a regular game only take about 5 rounds. I, personally don't see much problem with the truenamer, but YMMV. :smallsmile:


EDIT: I nearly forgot. That skill modifier can also be increased by quite a few sources outside of the truenamer himself. Spells cast by an ally. Effects that add bonuses to int based checks, racial bonuses. I really just don't see the problem honestly. :smallwink:

You're forgetting a +2 from inherent bonus from a +4 tome... So in other words he has a 60% chance of succeeding.

sofawall
2009-12-24, 07:56 PM
Well, 60%, then a possible save. That'd reduce the chances a fair bit.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-24, 08:39 PM
I don't think a character that has a 40% chance of failing at the one thing it has invested quite heavily in and specialized solely in is a sign of a well designed class.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-24, 08:41 PM
And another 10% chance of failure every time they try the same thing again.

That's like a wizard with 40% Spell Failure Rate.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 08:43 PM
You're forgetting a +2 from inherent bonus from a +4 tome... So in other words he has a 60% chance of succeeding.

Actually I didn't forget the book, I intentionally left it off, along with a +2 masterwork item, a +10 competence bonus item, a possible racial bonus, and a whole host of other things. My point was that a TN doesn't have to be optimized out the butt to be playable. Many of the lexicon of the perfected map utterances are a flat dc 25 check. He'll auto-succeed on those 9 times before he even has a chance of failure.

Edit:Remember that a Truenamer has UMD as a class skill. Speaking an utterance is hardly his only option in an encounter. Remember also that for the party to encounter a single enemy whose CR is equal to their level should be rare, and likely won't be dangerous. Why would a Wizard blast the tarrasque by using gate, or timestop; when all he needs to do is put a grease spell under its feet and let his buddies stomp on it until it's time for the wish to perma-kill it. Why would a truenamer use an utterance, which he can only use say three or for times today when he can use a scroll of grease and put the enemy prone just as easily as a wizard. Utterances are his primary feature, but their not his only feature.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 08:55 PM
And another 10% chance of failure every time they try the same thing again.

That's like a wizard with 40% Spell Failure Rate.

How many of the same spell does a wizard usually prepare? a cleric?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 08:57 PM
How many of the same spell does a wizard usually prepare? a cleric?

My gnome illusionist has Silent Image prepared thirty times.

Then again he's a shadowcraft mage.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-24, 09:12 PM
How many of the same spell does a wizard usually prepare? a cleric?

The 40% failure rate is before the DC boost from using the same one, though.

Plus, they have a lot more choices.

UglyPanda
2009-12-24, 09:14 PM
How many of the same spell does a wizard usually prepare? a cleric?How many actions you get to cast spells is the real problem. If your spells fail 40% of the time, you end up doing 40% less during a battle.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 09:15 PM
My gnome illusionist has Silent Image prepared thirty times.

Then again he's a shadowcraft mage.

:smallamused: I think we can all agree that that's a special case. If you want to get a little twinky about it. Getting the truespeak check a bit higher isn't that hard.

Let's take an Illumian Truenamer 19/examplar 1

As above, plus
2 for power sigils
1 for improved power sigils
4 for skill artistry
2 for masterwork tool
2 for inherent bonus to intel
1 for starting at int 18 instead of int 15
and we get +54 without any cheese, and 56 with a little american cheese product that's not really cheese at all.

If your dm rules skill mastery as allowing you to take 10 on skills you normally can't, that's an auto-success for dc 66. That hits an enemy of cr 24 automatically, a couple of times. Even if your dm doesn't allow skill mastery to work that way, you now have all skills as class skills. Start with Able learner and your Truenamer becomes intensely more versatile skill wise, and this is off the top of my head. It's only mildly optimized at that.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-24, 09:17 PM
2 for masterwork tool

What type of tool do you use for speaking (true) names?

ericgrau
2009-12-24, 09:17 PM
luckstone & that one ioun stone +2
18+6+10=34 int, +12
ranks +23
amulet of silver tongue, which I hear is in the same book as truenamer: +10
skill focus +3
total: +50 vs. DC 55, 80% success

wizard is 10+9+12+2 = DC 33 vs. 21, 55% success

Never played one, don't own the book, but seriously that was not hard at all. Right along with AC and turning, it's hard b/c people don't take any time looking around. If you play for 6 months without looking, you still haven't looked.

Flickerdart
2009-12-24, 09:17 PM
People have played Truenamers, you know. And they are quite useless, even with the optimizing. If you can't do the Quicken trick, you're useless. If you can, you're twice as useful, which is still not a lot. Truenamers have an enormous failure chance to do something negligible.

Don't forget the second Truenaming "Law". If an utterance is active, you can't use another one of that kind until it expires. So your already paltry arsenal is limited even further.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 09:25 PM
People have played Truenamers, you know. And they are quite useless, even with the optimizing. If you can't do the Quicken trick, you're useless. If you can, you're twice as useful, which is still not a lot. Truenamers have an enormous failure chance to do something negligible.

Don't forget the second Truenaming "Law". If an utterance is active, you can't use another one of that kind until it expires. So your already paltry arsenal is limited even further.

The second law is easy to get around. If for some reason you don't want an effect to last for its full duration, and I can't think of many reasons that'd be, you can counterspeak your own utterances. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't anyway.

@Dark Fiddler: I did edit my previous post to point out that this isn't entirely by the book. It's not such a stretch though. How about a cheat sheet with several common truespeak pronunciations?

taltamir
2009-12-24, 09:28 PM
How many of the same spell does a wizard usually prepare? a cleric?

more spells per day then a super maximized shenaniganned true namer will pull off. A true namer's DC to succeed rises up every time he uses it that day, and only goes back down after he rests for a day.

And the wizard and cleric don't have a huge fail percentage on their spells, they know they will work. and their spells are vastly better. And their spells have much more variety and many more spells known

And if you pulled half the tricks that are needed to make a true namer viable with a good class... people have made ridiculously powerful optimized commoners for crying out loud...

DragoonWraith
2009-12-24, 09:36 PM
luckstone & that one ioun stone +2
18+6+10=34 int, +12
ranks +23
amulet of silver tongue, which I hear is in the same book as truenamer: +10
skill focus +3
total: +50 vs. DC 55, 80% success

wizard is 10+9+12+2 = DC 33 vs. 21, 55% success

Never played one, don't own the book, but seriously that was not hard at all. Right along with AC and turning, it's hard b/c people don't take any time looking around. If you play for 6 months without looking, you still haven't looked.
You assume a +21 save? Why on earth would a Wizard be targetting something that has a +21 to the relevant save? He would target a weaker save, or failing that, touch AC with a no-save spell.

Also, notably, even after you hit the DC 55 check - they still get a save. And it's Charisma based, while the Truespeak skill is Intelligence based, so they have MAD, too.

Flickerdart
2009-12-24, 09:40 PM
The second law is easy to get around. If for some reason you don't want an effect to last for its full duration, and I can't think of many reasons that'd be, you can counterspeak your own utterances. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't anyway.
Yes, and if you want to, I dunno, affect more than one target? Nothing is stopping the Warlock from handing out his debuffs like candy, but you have to choose between the Rogue, the Fighter and yourself when you Knight's Puissance. And don't even talk to me about the flight Utterance. You can't renew it, so you can't sustain it, until you get Greater Seek the Sky, anyway. Which makes it pretty worthless.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 09:41 PM
What type of tool do you use for speaking (true) names?

I'm picturing a pocket-sized manual - "B******* Out The Universe For Dummies - A Pronounciation Guide to Truespeech.".:smallcool:

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 09:41 PM
more spells per day then a super maximized shenaniganned true namer will pull off. A true namer's DC to succeed rises up every time he uses it that day, and only goes back down after he rests for a day.

And the wizard and cleric don't have a huge fail percentage on their spells, they know they will work. and their spells are vastly better. And their spells have much more variety and many more spells known

And if you pulled half the tricks that are needed to make a true namer viable with a good class... people have made ridiculously powerful optimized commoners for crying out loud...

The twentieth level Trunamer I outlined above (the one with the level of exemplar) gets 27 different utterances and will auto-succeed on every single one of them at least once unless he fights something a couple levels higher than him, without the masterwork tool. A wizard gets 40 spells, plus bonus spells. If the truenamer succeeds on each of his utterances twice, he's matched the wizard. ericgrau, a poster just a few posts above this one, showed several options I overlooked that would further improve the truespeak check. The truenamer can be useless, it's not inherently borked.

InkEyes
2009-12-24, 09:44 PM
The second law is easy to get around. If for some reason you don't want an effect to last for its full duration, and I can't think of many reasons that'd be, you can counterspeak your own utterances. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't anyway.

@Dark Fiddler: I did edit my previous post to point out that this isn't entirely by the book. It's not such a stretch though. How about a cheat sheet with several common truespeak pronunciations?

Why should people have to look around to make a class functional? Out of the box Truenamers might be able to buff their allies and hurt enemies 50-60% of the time the first try, but why not 100%? No other caster has to prepare that much to be useable. Even the Warmage has buffs he can use on allies and himself 100% of the time when he's sick of monsters making their reflex saves or whatever. Just because a class can function with a bit of propping up doesn't mean that it should be excused. There are massive, gaping flaws in the Truenamer's casting system and it's clear Wizards never playtested it. Hopefully, word of mouth can scare people away from playing it, because it's really easy to drain the fun out of a game if you can't even contribute.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 09:56 PM
Why should people have to look around to make a class functional? Out of the box Truenamers might be able to buff their allies and hurt enemies 50-60% of the time the first try, but why not 100%? No other caster has to prepare that much to be useable. Even the Warmage has buffs he can use on allies and himself 100% of the time when he's sick of monsters making their reflex saves or whatever. Just because a class can function with a bit of propping up doesn't mean that it should be excused. There are massive, gaping flaws in the Truenamer's casting system and it's clear Wizard's never playtested it. Hopefully, word of mouth can scare people away from playing it, because it's really easy to drain the fun out of a game if you can't even contribute.

At a level below 20th the truenamer is more reliable. Say 15th. The average dc is (arguably) 45.

18 ranks
4 for int 18 (started at 15)
3 for headband of intellect
10 for amulet of the silver tongue
1 luckstone
3 skill focus
1 pale green prism ioun stone

+40 to the check, all in core and ToM

One of the most gaping flaws in the D&D system is that after about 16th or 17th level the whole system starts to collapse under the weight of its own algorithms.

Besides, I still believe that the average enemies will be at least 2 or 3 points of CR below the party. On the BBEG things are a little tougher, but if you've known for some time who the BBEG is then you've probably managed to find his personal truename, which can make things decidedly easier by application of the truename spells via scroll.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 10:06 PM
Hopefully, word of mouth can scare people away from playing it, because it's really easy to drain the fun out of a game if you can't even contribute.

Hey, don't punish Binders for Truenamers lameness.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-24, 10:10 PM
The second law is easy to get around. If for some reason you don't want an effect to last for its full duration, and I can't think of many reasons that'd be, you can counterspeak your own utterances. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't anyway.

...So you waste a standard action and your turn to pass one buff onto another ally? And you won't even succeed on that 100% of the time because you have to actively beat your last roll to counterspeak something. No, that's just silly.

But that isn't the only problem. Most utterances are simply useless or, at best, a pitiful shallow display of equal level spells.

Compare Greater Knight's Puissance to Greater Heroism: Sure, Knight's gives you 1 more attack and 5 extra damage, but Heroism gives +4 to saves, skill checks, fear immunity and CL in temporary HP. Compared reversed Greater Word of Nurturing to Chain Lightning. 20d6 vs CLd6 + 50% against CL extra targets. Reversed Ether Reforged vs Shadow Walk: One makes you ethereal(and subsequently useless) for 1 round/level and the other plane shifts you for 1 hour/level and lets you travel somewhere.

Sure, a truenamer can use his utterances all day if you buff your truespeak check hard enough. But his utterances are still fairly pitiful compared to out-of-the-box real magic, and god forbid the caster is even moderately optimized or even pulls out his 7th, 8th or 9th level spells.

In closing: Sure, a truenamer compared to a commoner, CW Samurai or expert is good. But comparing him to even a barbarian, who at least can end an enemy or two with a bit of optimizing and a 95% chance of success, leaves the truenamer in the lurch.

Zaq
2009-12-24, 10:10 PM
Oh my. Let's just start. Wall of text ahoy! These spoilers are for everyone, but help to make this a bit less enormous.

Gnaeus:


With heavy optimization, it is actually tier 2-3. That really requires pulling out all the stops and tricks from multiple books, and things like Gate abuse. Item Familiar, Skill Focus, Custom Skill+ item and a bunch of others I can't remember. At this level you can do all your tricks multiple times per day with low or no failure.

Without heavy optimization, it quickly drops toward low tier 5, high tier 6.

I disagree. MAYBE the bottom of Tier 3, but it can't compete with a Crusader, Factotum, Binder, or Totemist. Utterances aren't actually that GOOD most of the time. There are a few gems, but not many... and versatility is the mark of a high-tier class. Very few Utterances are actually worth your time. I had to go specifically out of my way to use a lot of mine, and I picked them for utility.

erikun:

An optimized Truenamer can cast the equilivant of two spells a round, every round, as a class feature. That is very useful and shouldn't be underestimated, especially when the reason that Tier 1 classes are Tier 1 is due to their versatility and ability to take multiple actions.

The problem, though, is that their usability depends completely on their ability to acquire skill-bonus items. With numerous ways to boost their Truespeak check, they can rank next to Sorcerers and Psions, if not Wizards. The problem is that +30 skill items would not be allowed for any other skill, certainly not for something like Diplomancy of Use Magic Device.

Without optimization, they are useless. Not Tier 6 - useless. A high level Truenamer can't affect anything, not enemies, not allies. A class skill that doesn't do anything isn't really an ability.

They have to burn a feat on getting Quicken, but I suppose that's a moot point. I have played a Truenamer who used two Utterances most rounds. They are still nowhere near as good as a Psion, though. I was in a party with a Sorcerer and a Wilder, and they regularly outshined me without trying. A Truenamer doesn't have enough tricks known for parity with the Tier 2s, and the tricks they do know aren't that good. (Yes, they get more Utterances than a Wilder gets powers, but at least Wilder powers are good and scale with level.) There's no way you can compete with Glitterdust, Astral Construct, Dimension Door, a proper Haste that hits multiple allies for more than three goddamn rounds, Vigor, or any of it. Generally speaking, Utterances are less useful than Invocations of the same level, let alone spells and powers. Also, you'll find that if you're actually using two utterances per round, you'll run out of targets, due to the Law of Sequence (people complain about the Law of Resistance, but the Law of Sequence is MUCH worse). Furthermore, don't forget that using an utterance disables its counterpart for the duration. Using Haste? I hope you didn't need Slow. Using Inertia Surge to stop an enemy? Better not need the Freedom of Movement function, then. Your options are even more limited than they seem at first, and they already seem pretty bad.

However, I fully agree with your last paragraph.

Kelb Panthera:

So let's get this straight.

20th level truenamer has to hit dc 55

23 for ranks
3 for skill focus
10 for amulet of the silver tongue
5 for 20 int
3 more for headband of intellect

+44 for a truenamer that starts with int 15. He hits on 11. That's a 50/50 shot without any attempt to optimize, just common sense feat, item, and ability increase choices. That honestly doesn't sound too bad to me. Especially in the event that your dm uses several lower level enemies to make up a level appropriate encounter. In a 4 on 4 PvE encounter each of the enemies, assuming they're of equal level to each other, are at party level -4, in which case you're going to effect the enemy at on a roll of 3 at level 20. Eminently acceptable to my eyes. The truenamer gets a bad rap because he has a really hard time in an optimized game, where each individual enemy is of a level equal to the party's average or perhaps higher; and each of his teammates is capable of one-shoting even these enemies. The 5 round duration on most Utterances isn't so bad when you consider that most combats in a regular game only take about 5 rounds. I, personally don't see much problem with the truenamer, but YMMV. :smallsmile:


EDIT: I nearly forgot. That skill modifier can also be increased by quite a few sources outside of the truenamer himself. Spells cast by an ally. Effects that add bonuses to int based checks, racial bonuses. I really just don't see the problem honestly. :smallwink:

Bestow Curse is a 4th level spell. One of its most feared options is the ability to curse the target to not do anything 50% of the time.

With "common-sense" optimization, you have the opportunity to be as good as someone who has been cursed. Sounds like fun to me! A class should be useful out of the box, without jumping through these hoops.

Also, affecting allies is always an equal-CR task, so don't count on being able to take out mooks.

Finally, relatively few Utterances that you would use in combat are 5 rounds. Most are 1 or 3. If you fight a running battle, or a battle that isn't over as soon as initiative is rolled, this can hurt. A lot. Trust me, just try playing one.


The DC only increases if you succeed. Besides, with so many utterances to choose from that's not that big an issue, especially since several of the AoE utterances have set DC's and can be used over and over with relatively little difficulty. A spellcaster doesn't get to use his most powerful spells more than a couple times each day. So it only seems fair that a truenamer have the same restriction. The biggest problem with that comparison is that utterances always use a DC set by your truenamer level and consequently are always as difficult to resist as a spellcasters highest level spells. They also have UMD as a class skill which is something notable. I'm not saying that the Truenamer is for everyone, or every game. I'm just saying that it's not as completely worthless as some people believe/say.

Utterances aren't as good as spells. You don't have "so many" to choose from; you have a handful of good ones, and the ones that you pray will get to come up. There are very few Utterances to choose from at level-up, and even fewer to choose to use round by round.

Also, your talk of AoE utterances makes me sigh a little bit. You get ONE LPM (those are the area-affecting ones) per level. That's per level of utterance, not per level of Truenamer. Only two of them are worth your time, and one of those appears at level 20 (and is rather broken). You get them really late (usually five levels or so after the spell they mimic appears), they're highly limited, and they tend to have a tiny radius. Solid Fog is an exception, I'll grant, but that's still one choice... oh, and I hope you didn't need to use any more Utterances on the things you enfogged, because you need LoS to use Truespeak.

It's not wise to compare Truenamers to spellcasters. They're closer to the all-day characters like Warlocks, DFAs, Binders, or martial adepts. They do not compare favorably with any of them.

You do have UMD, true, but only very rarely does it actually benefit your Truenaming. It's a very strong asset, yes, but it's not a very synergistic one.

ericgrau:

luckstone & that one ioun stone +2
18+6+10=34 int, +12
ranks +23
amulet of silver tongue, which I hear is in the same book as truenamer: +10
skill focus +3
total: +50 vs. DC 55, 80% success

wizard is 10+9+12+2 = DC 33 vs. 21, 55% success

Never played one, don't own the book, but seriously that was not hard at all. Right along with AC and turning, it's hard b/c people don't take any time looking around. If you play for 6 months without looking, you still haven't looked.

I really hope that you did not imply that I played "for 6 months without looking." If you read my account of it (in my sig), or even just part of it, you'll see that I was able to hit my Utterance DCs pretty much all day, even Quickened, and I STILL wasn't that good. There were things I could do, but most of the good stuff I did was in spite of the class, not because of it.

Kelb again:

The second law is easy to get around. If for some reason you don't want an effect to last for its full duration, and I can't think of many reasons that'd be, you can counterspeak your own utterances. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't anyway.

@Dark Fiddler: I did edit my previous post to point out that this isn't entirely by the book. It's not such a stretch though. How about a cheat sheet with several common truespeak pronunciations?

Counterspeaking is a standard action, which is an enormous cost in-battle when I need to change who's being slowed RIGHT NOW. Also, you have to beat your own Truespeak checks, so there's a 50/50 shot of success. Unlike dispelling magic, there's no clause about auto-succeeding against yourself.

The Law of Sequence was the number one pain in the ass I had to deal with, and it defined how I could and could not approach encounters.

I don't usually feel compelled to get so heavily into this, but having been there, I feel like there are a lot of misconceptions that need to be dispelled.

Yes, Truenamers have a few good tricks. Universal Aptitude, Greater Speed of the Zephyr, and Magic Contraction are pretty sweet. I don't deny this. That said, they're still wracked with problems, and not that good of a class.

One thing that a lot of people forget is that even once you can make the skill DCs, Utterances still aren't that good. There are gems, but they are few and far between. It's not like the Truenamer is holding back Wizard-level power that simply needs to be unlocked. No, they're closer to Warlock-level power, and I'm talking unoptimized Warlocks and optimized Truenamers. Even once you get your Truespeak check up there, you still don't have all that much to do, because your utterances simply don't have the versatility or power that you expect from a magic user.

So, you have to optimize like crazy to be allowed to use your class features, and once you do, you find that your class features still kind of suck. Fun times!

Seriously, everyone, go through the Truespeak chapter. Look at the character level you have to be before you get each level of utterance. Look at how many of each type of utterance you get. Compare the power and utility of each level of utterance to what other classes get at the same level (spells/powers, or maneuvers, or invocations, or chakra binds, or even feat trees), and you'll find that the Utterance usually comes out on the bottom. (Here, if you don't want to do it, I've already done it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6270684&postcount=49) for you. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6255115&postcount=2))

They're just not that good, people.

InkEyes
2009-12-24, 10:26 PM
Besides, I still believe that the average enemies will be at least 2 or 3 points of CR below the party. On the BBEG things are a little tougher, but if you've known for some time who the BBEG is then you've probably managed to find his personal truename, which can make things decidedly easier by application of the truename spells via scroll.

I'll skip over the first part of this because it's too subjective for me to counter. Personally, I tend to make encounters right at party level or a little above.

Finding something's Truename is a long and time-consuming process for a +2 DC and a +2 caster level though. A single success is a 15 + (2*HD or CR) knowledge check. Add on that you need to get a number of successful checks equal to half the HD of the creature (no, not the challenge rating, just the Hit Dice). Plus spending a base 1,000 gp and a week researching each check (hope you don't fail). Sure, you can spend a feat/find out who the BBEG is and journey to a major library for reduced gold costs, but you still end up spending weeks looking for a single name. Even broken up those are weeks that could be better spent on making magic weapons that more reliably kill/maim monsters of all challenge ratings and hit dice.


Hey, don't punish Binders for Truenamers lameness.

I have no issues with the Tome of Magic itself. I actually love the flavor of all the classes in it, but I think what happened here was a case of the right hand doing something without the knowledge of the left. The Binder works, the Shadowcaster does to a lesser extent, but whomever was in charge of keeping the quality level equal across the book must've been asleep at the wheel or nonexistent. That's a dire shame for any company that wants to be perceived as professional and a producer of quality work.

Flickerdart
2009-12-24, 10:31 PM
Indeed. The whole "forgetting to print DCs for Lexicon of the Perfected Map" thing shows just how much WotC cared by that point.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 10:35 PM
{snip}

If there's anyone's input I'd respect in this matter its yours. (no sarcasm, no disrespect to other posters)

I actually agree that comparing the truenamer to spellcasters is an exercise in futility, they compare more with skillful types, specifically non-combat skillful types. I only argued along the wizard line of thinking because it's pretty much expected with anything that gets an X per day type of ability that has to be described by table. I also admit that a player has to be pretty creative to make a truenamer shine. I was never arguing that the class was exceptional or even particularly good. My sole intent has been to discredit the notion that truenamers are completely useless. In an average game with moderate to low optimization (read highest starting ability is 16 and certain common sense rulings are made rather than going strictly by raw) that the truenamer is useable. Up until the late game (17th lvl +) he can make the check to perform his utterances reliably with a bit of effort (see my last post) try a truenamer in a party that's missing the skill monkey, and you can probably have a fair time of it.

@ the point on duration: at a glance it looks like most utterances say 5 round duration to me, but if your durations aren't working for you there's always extend utterance, it doesn't increase the DC by much, and none of my three truenamer outlines included active spell effects boosting the skill check.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 10:38 PM
I'll skip over the first part of this because it's too subjective for me to counter. Personally, I tend to make encounters right at party level or a little above.

I said enemy cr's, not EL. I agree that most encounters should be at a level equal to the party or higher, but the cr's of the individual enemies in any given encounter are lower than the encounter level itself unless the encounter has only a single enemy.

Edit: I'll clarify my point. Going by the table in the DMG an EL 20 encounter would be composed of: 1cr 20, 2 cr 18's, 3 cr 17's, 4 cr 16's, or 5 or 6 cr 15's, and so on. only one of those requires that you reliably hit DC 55. The second, in which the enemy is outnumbered two to one (and is probably screwed for that alone) the dc is only 51. In the set where the enemy even has a chance, 4 cr 16's, the dc is a paltry 47, my original, completely unoptimized example, can reliably hit that.

InkEyes
2009-12-24, 10:45 PM
I said enemy cr's, not EL. I agree that most encounters should be at a level equal to the party or higher, but the cr's of the individual enemies in any given encounter are lower than the encounter level itself unless the encounter has only a single enemy.

I sort of understood what you meant, really. But the design of encounters is a really difficult thing to gauge between games. I like throwing a single big monster at my pcs, sometimes with little mooks to act as distractions. I don't like monsters that much though, so I guess they tend to be more "boss" encounters anyway. Now traps, mmm, nothing like a good puzzle trap to set a party on edge.


Another question for the playground: Can a Factotum be a better truespeaker than the Truenamer? I've been tempted to play something like this for a while. :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2009-12-24, 10:46 PM
Another question for the playground: Can a Factotum be a better truespeaker than the Truenamer?

In terms of getting high skill checks? Almost certainly. In terms of using Truespeak Utterances? Probably not- that would require investing many levels into either Truenamer or a Truespeak prestige class, and any self-respecting Factotum would have much better things to do with his levels. Like getting more Factotum.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 10:48 PM
So the answer is clear. Truename can be fixed by Gestalting it with Factotum.


Wait, everything can be fixed by gestalting factotum, except Factotum. Okay, back to the drawing board.

Flickerdart
2009-12-24, 10:48 PM
Someone homebrew up a Factotum with Utterances instead of spells.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-24, 10:49 PM
I sort of understood what you meant, really. But the design of encounters is a really difficult thing to gauge between games. I like throwing a single big monster at my pcs, sometimes with little mooks to act as distractions. I don't like monsters that much though, so I guess they tend to be more "boss" encounters anyway. Now traps, mmm, nothing like a good puzzle trap to set a party on edge.


Another question for the playground: Can a Factotum be a better truespeaker than the Truenamer? I've been tempted to play something like this for a while. :smallbiggrin:

I realize that the make-up of individual encounters varies from game to game.

A factotum probably can make higher truespeak checks more reliably than a truenamer, but he doesn't get any utterances unless he burns feats on them. That said, imagine what a factotum dip could do for a truenamer.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-24, 11:03 PM
Someone homebrew up a Factotum with Utterances instead of spells.

Couldn't we just remove Arcane Dilettante and Opportunistic Piety, replacing them with a Truenamer gestalt?

Zaq
2009-12-24, 11:55 PM
Couldn't we just remove Arcane Dilettante and Opportunistic Piety, replacing them with a Truenamer gestalt?

We can, but we'd really suffer from it, unless you're just giving them utterances and not making them 1/day like Arcane Dilettante.

That said, a Factotum could benefit from taking the feat Least Utterance of the Evolving Mind: Universal Aptitude, since a +5 unnamed bonus to all skill checks is a very handy thing for the mother of all skillmonkeys to have. Of course, if they want to reliably use it more than once per day, they have to start investing in it really heavily, but INT+ranks+Cunning Knowledge should be enough to use it at least once. It'd be a great asset before making a critical Disable Device, Open Lock, Appraise, Knowledge, or whatever check.

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 05:59 AM
If your dm rules skill mastery as allowing you to take 10 on skills you normally can't, that's an auto-success for dc 66.

Which certainly isn't valid for board purposes, because Skill Mastery does not allow you to take 10 on skills that explicitly cannot be used with the take 10 option.

Even RAI is pretty clear on this.

There is a fixed version of the Truenamer in homebrew, by the way.

Draxar
2009-12-25, 08:19 AM
I don't think a character that has a 40% chance of failing at the one thing it has invested quite heavily in and specialized solely in is a sign of a well designed class.

Fighers often have a 40% chance of missing a foe. Saves can mean the same for a Wizard. Remember that the 40% is is from a non-heavily optimised Truenamer; an utterly basic one.



Well, 60%, then a possible save. That'd reduce the chances a fair bit.

If they get a save, then you are Doing It Wrong. The point of truenaming is that for having gone through that roll, they don't get to avoid it. As a general rule, the powers with saves aren't worth taking; largely because of the two chances of failure.


Why should people have to look around to make a class functional?

Broadly, I agree. Among other things, it should get skill specialisation in Truenaming at first level. And overall, it does need fixing.



Out of the box Truenamers might be able to buff their allies and hurt enemies 50-60% of the time the first try, but why not 100%?

Because the only thing they lose for failure is time, and because overall, they get to cast more times than other classes.


Hopefully, word of mouth can scare people away from playing it, because it's really easy to drain the fun out of a game if you can't even contribute.

I would say warn, rather than scare off; I intend to play a truenamer at some point. However I'm going to do so entirely aware of what I'm doing, and thus, able to optimise up into workability.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-25, 08:23 AM
Because the only thing they lose for failure is time, and because overall, they get to cast more times than other classes.
Time, that is, actions, are more important than just about any other resource. Losing an action is abysmal.

And again: you have a 60% chance to make them make a save. It's not as if all you have to do is make the skill check - that could be perhaps useful, since you don't have to worry about your enemy's specific defenses. But no, the utterances still allow a save.

Oslecamo
2009-12-25, 08:25 AM
A factotum probably can make higher truespeak checks more reliably than a truenamer, but he doesn't get any utterances unless he burns feats on them. That said, imagine what a factotum dip could do for a truenamer.

Eerr, last time I checked, the factotum can get a bonus to a skill check 1/day for each skill. So you shoot one utterance, then what?

DragoonWraith
2009-12-25, 08:28 AM
Not to mention the bonus is equal to his Factotum level, which means a dip is nigh-useless.

Draxar
2009-12-25, 08:41 AM
Time, that is, actions, are more important than just about any other resource. Losing an action is abysmal.

And again: you have a 60% chance to make them make a save. It's not as if all you have to do is make the skill check - that could be perhaps useful, since you don't have to worry about your enemy's specific defenses. But no, the utterances still allow a save.

Wrong. Some utterances require a save. A lot of them don't. Unless the save-giving utterance is particularly great, it's generally going to be better to stick with those that don't give saves.

Ernir
2009-12-25, 08:45 AM
One thing that a lot of people forget is that even once you can make the skill DCs, Utterances still aren't that good.

This. This is what I see as the Truenamer's least "fixable" problem. The DCs' incorrect scaling can be optimized against. The utterances having un-spectacular results and horrid limitations regarding how they are used... that, not really. :smallfrown:

Gnaeus
2009-12-25, 09:56 AM
The tier list is actually optimization-neutral. Being deaf-mute & paraplegic does not move you up or down the tier list. You don't compare an optimized crappy class to an unoptimized good class. You compare like to like.

I am well aware of that.

This is why Truenamer isn't on the tier chart. An unoptimized truenamer, being useless, is worse than an unoptimized fighter. A twinked out truenamer is better than a twinked out barbarian or rogue. You can't place it in an optimization neutral context.

JaronK discussed, but quickly rejected, placing it in multiple locations with a note. It was too complicated, and opened too many doors.

Gnaeus
2009-12-25, 10:11 AM
Gnaeus:

I disagree. MAYBE the bottom of Tier 3, but it can't compete with a Crusader, Factotum, Binder, or Totemist. Utterances aren't actually that GOOD most of the time. There are a few gems, but not many... and versatility is the mark of a high-tier class. Very few Utterances are actually worth your time. I had to go specifically out of my way to use a lot of mine, and I picked them for utility.

erikun:

Tiers are partially for versatility, partially for game-breaking power, especially in the difference between tier 2 and 3. XP-less gate abuse multiple times a day is arguably a game breaker. Does it put them in tier 2 by itself? I dunno. It is certainly more broken than anything a crusader can do.

Bayar
2009-12-25, 10:55 AM
Tiers are partially for versatility, partially for game-breaking power, especially in the difference between tier 2 and 3. XP-less gate abuse multiple times a day is arguably a game breaker. Does it put them in tier 2 by itself? I dunno. It is certainly more broken than anything a crusader can do.

Sorcerers are in tier 2. Wizards are in tier 1.

The reason sorcerers are in tier 2 is because they can do a couple of neat tricks. The wizard can theoretically do all neat tricks. A sorcerer can do the wish loop trick. The wizard can do that and other tricks. That is versatility.

Gnaeus
2009-12-25, 11:05 AM
Sorcerers are in tier 2. Wizards are in tier 1.

The reason sorcerers are in tier 2 is because they can do a couple of neat tricks. The wizard can theoretically do all neat tricks. A sorcerer can do the wish loop trick. The wizard can do that and other tricks. That is versatility.

Yes. That is the difference between tier 1 and tier 2.

Unfortunately, we are talking about the difference between tier 2 and tier 3. Jaron weights that heavily in the existence of brokenness. Tier 1s have all the broken tricks, tier 2s have a couple of tricks. Tier 3s are well balanced and have little potential to accidently break the game.

ericgrau
2009-12-25, 01:57 PM
You assume a +21 save? Why on earth would a Wizard be targetting something that has a +21 to the relevant save? He would target a weaker save, or failing that, touch AC with a no-save spell.

Also, notably, even after you hit the DC 55 check - they still get a save. And it's Charisma based, while the Truespeak skill is Intelligence based, so they have MAD, too.

If you even know its low save, which is usually reflex (a save low on insta-gib spells), it's +19. Yay? Your no save options are enervation, ray of enfeeblement, dimensional anchor, direct damage, or the well known brokenage that is shivering touch.

Quick, what's a pit fiend or balor's low save or saves, no peeking. And if you're thinking a knowledge check, you'll have to beat the DC by an ungodly amount to get all of a creature's abilities/weaknesses, not just 1 or 2.

I dunno, maybe truenamer does suck. But a great portion of this thread seems dedicated to making the truespeak DCs which are not in fact hard to make. As with other common scaling problems people have, you gotta go figure out what gear to get.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:26 PM
I dunno, maybe truenamer does suck. But a great portion of this thread seems dedicated to making the truespeak DCs which are not in fact hard to make. As with other common scaling problems people have, you gotta go figure out what gear to get.

you can easily make it if you allow it to have abuse skill items... and only it because giving those to any other class would break the game.
you simply can NOT make the DC out of the box...

As the one person here who actually tested it thoroughly (zaq) said, the problem wasn't the DC so much as the law of sequence (only one casting active at a time). And more important, that the "spells" themsleves utterly suck...

it has a lot of problems... and WOTC just pretends it doesn't exist and never releases anything AT ALL for it.

ericgrau
2009-12-25, 03:06 PM
you can easily make it if you allow it to have abuse skill items... and only it because giving those to any other class would break the game.
you simply can NOT make the DC out of the box...
I beg your pardon? I believe I did exactly that on post 51. No abuse. What's more, other posters have shown success on a roll of a 5 for other levels as well. And I didn't leaf through truenamer's book, I merely heard about the single non-custom item you need from the many people who did. Some people prefer months of suffering and complaining to turning a few pages or asking around I guess <shrug>.

... unless the thread focuses more on other issues with the class instead of the truespeak DC. That could be something.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-25, 03:29 PM
I beg your pardon? I believe I did exactly that on post 51. No abuse. What's more, other posters have shown success on a roll of a 5 for other levels as well. And I didn't leaf through truenamer's book, I merely heard about the single non-custom item you need from the many people who did. Some people prefer months of suffering and complaining to turning a few pages or asking around I guess <shrug>.

... unless the thread focuses more on other issues with the class instead of the truespeak DC. That could be something.

So did I.

The fact that a truenamer's utterances aren't all that spectacular is their biggest detraction, and it is unfortunately one that even someone as optimistic as I can't see many ways around without requiring a fair amount of creativity on the players part. As for the LOS problem, that's not a big deal. Getting a version of blindsight isn't hard. Off the top of my head there's a magic blindfold in, I think, MiC. There's the combination of the touchsight and synesthete powers. Some naturally blind creatures get blindsight, so a spell changing the truenamer into one of these should do the trick. With a bit more support the truenamer could've become pretty cool. Too bad ToM was released so close to the start of 4e.

@lesserminion: not that it's really that important, since that version of a truenamer has a wide selection of skills to support his utterances, but where can I find the official word on skill mastery? My DM always ruled that skill mastery did work that way, but I remember some argument about it online so I put that qualifier in my statement.

Zaq
2009-12-25, 06:07 PM
XP-less gate abuse multiple times a day is arguably a game breaker.

At level 20. A level 19 Truenamer CANNOT do that. It's the capstone. You cannot assign a class a tier based solely on its capstone. That doesn't make any sense. I don't care WHAT you can do at level 20 if you have to have 19 levels of crap to get to it.

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 07:11 PM
@lesserminion: not that it's really that important, since that version of a truenamer has a wide selection of skills to support his utterances, but where can I find the official word on skill mastery? My DM always ruled that skill mastery did work that way, but I remember some argument about it online so I put that qualifier in my statement.

Skill Mastery is worded as follows:


she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so

It's quite clear what it allows you to ignore - stress and distractions. Not everything.

There is a FAQ answer in Dragon on the subject as well.

A related mistake is to assume that Uncanny Dodge makes a character immune to feinting.