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View Full Version : Boosting the Rogue [3.5]



Zaq
2009-12-24, 05:29 PM
'Kay, so, it's generally agreed that the Factotum completely stole the Rogue's role as a skillmonkey. I should stop to add that I love me some Factotums, and I don't think that they're "too good" or anything silly like that. However, they seriously stomped on the Rogue's toes, leaving the Rogue with no real specialties other than being a blender. Which is nice, but... well, limiting.

The Factotum is close to the perfect skillmonkey. INT-SAD, all skills available, insane bonuses (class level 1/day/skill, INT to everything), and just a touch of magic to back themselves up. This is great. However, it leaves the Rogue totally in the cold. I'd like to boost the Rogue up to the level of the Factotum in general usefulness, or at least close to it. There's no way the Rogue can out-skillmonkey the Factotum (unless they had the ability to reallocate their skill points every day, like a Chameleon's bonus feat... but that's basically just what the Incarnate does, and is a huge headache), but being a skillmonkey is one of the Rogue's two big things.

Basically, as I see it, if you're planning a new party with your friend, and you decide you want to be a Rogue as he decides he wants to be a Factotum, you're basically pigeonholed into being a sneak attack blender or being "like him, only less." He can out-trapmonkey you (focus on INT, huge bonuses to skills when necessary); he can out-magic you (you both get UMD so there's no advantage, and he has Arcane Dilettante); he can out-skillmonkey you (no question, really... he'll even have more skill points unless you can nearly meet or exceed his INT, which you can't really afford, while he can)... so what's left? Handfuls of d6s. Which is fun, but... not enough.

So, what can we do to change this? It wouldn't be unbalancing to increase the Rogue's power level a little, surely... but how can we do that without either copying the Factotum or introducing something totally non-Roguish (the Psychic Rogue is awesome, but why should every Rogue have to be psionic?)? I love the Factotum and don't want to get rid of them, but if you're interested in any aspect of a Rogue that's not "Hey, do you have any d6s I can borrow? I'm running out." then the Factotum is going to outshine you, and that's sad.

I'm well aware that this is precisely why the Rogue is T4 while the Factotum is T3, but I'm wondering if there's any way to nudge the Rogue up a little. Thoughts?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 05:49 PM
You need to focus on what the Rogue has that the Factotum lacks. You've already mentioned sneak attack (which the Factotum can get, too, but only 1d6 of); there are also the Rogue special abilities. You could give the Rogue the Savvy Rogue feat as a class bonus feat, or the Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) variant's Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight in addition to the normal special abilities.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-12-24, 06:13 PM
The rogue could probably get a bump in HD, from d6 to d8, like the Factotum.

It would seem the rogue's special defensive abilities are significantly different from the factotum's, and that might be a good area to try and focus. Maybe give them bonus feats periodically; he'll have a better slew of feats than the factotum, which will likely just have a bunch of Fonts of Inspiration.

Tavar
2009-12-24, 06:37 PM
Personally, I'd give them either a supernatural version of Hide in Plain sight, or a version of camouflage and hide in plain sight that work anywhere. Why Rangers are better at hiding than rogues is one of the biggest mysteries of 3.5, at least to me.

Aldizog
2009-12-24, 07:07 PM
Give the rogue special abilities at more levels, and let more of those have skill applications.

Maybe as a second level of Skill Mastery, Skill Supremacy, which, for the same skills, lets you roll 2d20 and take the best of die1, die2, or 10. Or maybe it lets you count a skill check as a 20 a certain number of times per day. Maybe a feat to let you use Epic uses of class skills at much lower DCs.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 08:01 PM
Maybe as a second level of Skill Mastery, Skill Supremacy, which, for the same skills, lets you roll 2d20 and take the best of die1, die2, or 10.
Savvy Rogue lets you always "take 12" on mastered skills. I like that.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-24, 08:16 PM
Fax's How-it-Should-be-Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221) might be a good start. It gets its special abilities starting at 8th level rather than tenth and it gets a really cool ability at 3rd called Canny Finesse which allows the Rogue to apply their dex mod to attack and damage. It also gets a bunch of 1/day powers that are nice, although these things might not quite put it up to the level of factotum, it might be a good start (like I said).

AslanCross
2009-12-24, 09:05 PM
I like Pathfinder's version of the rogue. Having Rogue talents at every even level allows you to customize your rogue's specialties more, as well as giving him slightly more feat space.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-24, 09:06 PM
Fax's How-it-Should-be-Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221) might be a good start.

I agree. Although I've never actually played the class in a real game, I've toyed around with a couple of builds with this rogue fix. It offers both interesting things to do in combat, and fun ways to go crazy with skills (like epic DC pickpocketing at ~lv10).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-24, 10:54 PM
Possibly, focus on Dex instead of Int to similar effect. Add Dex to attack and damage(without feats), give a non-enhancement speed boost, and allow them to base str-based skills on Dex instead of Str.

Geddoe
2009-12-24, 11:22 PM
I rather like Fax's Sublime Rogue variant, though it could still use d8 hp to match the Factotum.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 11:50 PM
I rather like Fax's Sublime Rogue variant, though it could still use d8 hp to match the Factotum.
I don't think the point is to match the Factotum that closely. The Rogue doesn't need lots of hit points if they don't get hit. It always struck me as an error that the standard Rogue doesn't get Hide in Plain Sight. If they can't see you, they're probably not going to hit you.

Geddoe
2009-12-25, 12:30 PM
The standard core rogue doesn't have access to Darkstalker, so the ability to hide in plain sight may as well not exist at high levels.

"Don't bother rolling, it still spots you."

Draz74
2009-12-25, 03:06 PM
The Rogue really needs two things, mostly, to keep up with the Factotum:


Something that makes sure that Sneak Attack will always be a relevant ability
Something that it can do with Skills that the Factotum can't.


Penetrating Strike is a good start for the first one. Maybe just make a high-level feat that makes Sneak Attack work on everything?

Skill Mastery with Savvy Rogue helps with the second part, but it's not enough. Another idea I've had is feats along the lines of Versatile Performer, only better. Like, something that lets you replace all Balance/Climb/Jump/Swim/Escape Artist checks with Tumble checks, maybe? Something that lets you use your Bluff or Sense Motive check (whichever is lower) for all Diplomacy/Gather Information/Intimidate checks? Something that lets you use your Sleight of Hand for all Disable Device/Open Lock/Forgery checks?

I also can't see any reason to object to just giving the Rogue access to a small number of Shadow Hand Maneuvers as class features. Maybe three maneuvers and a stance by the time they reach Level 20? (Rogue Levels would still only count 1/2 for Initiator Levels.)

Curmudgeon
2009-12-25, 06:30 PM
For combat actions, the Rogue with Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue is going to top the Factotum. It's a separate Tumble check each time you use the skill, and the Factotum's Cunning Knowledge can't be used repeatedly. The Rogue can make free action Sleight of Hand checks to strip holy symbols, ammunition, and spell components off enemies in melee to whatever extent the DM permits. And the Factotum's generally useless at scouting because they can't keep up with the Rogue's Move Silently.

The problem is that the Rogue can't get that "no rolls required" skill reliability before level 12, typically (Rogue 10 minimum for Skill Mastery, and the next general feat slot following for Savvy Rogue). That's awfully late, and the Factotum has plenty of flexibility that the Rogue can't match at lower levels.

aje8
2009-12-25, 06:42 PM
For combat actions, the Rogue with Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue is going to top the Factotum. It's a separate Tumble check each time you use the skill, and the Factotum's Cunning Knowledge can't be used repeatedly. The Rogue can make free action Sleight of Hand checks to strip holy symbols, ammunition, and spell components off enemies in melee to whatever extent the DM permits. And the Factotum's generally useless at scouting because they can't keep up with the Rogue's Move Silently.

The problem is that the Rogue can't get that "no rolls required" skill reliability before level 12, typically (Rogue 10 minimum for Skill Mastery, and the next general feat slot following for Savvy Rogue). That's awfully late, and the Factotum has plenty of flexibility that the Rogue can't match at lower levels.
No offense, but I think our roguish friend has more problems compared to a Factotoum then you make out.

Less useful in combat? Factotums have several spells and healing. They can also get int to attack rolls and sneak attack dice. How are they worse in combat? Espically with a couple of Fonts they're quite powerful.

Can't keep up with the rogue's move silently? Spend 2 inspiration points..... assuming a +4 starting int, that's a +8 bonus........ and he can do it every encounter.

Regardless, I'd probably just go with Fax's how it should be rogue to make it tier 3. Barring that, I'd give rogue like Dex to attack rolls and damage as a class feature at 1st level plus the ability to sneak attack more and more things as he increases in level. By level 20, he should be able to sneak attack everything for full damage.

Tehnar
2009-12-25, 06:50 PM
In my homerules I just added that rogues special abilities can be obtained starting at 6th level, and every 2 levels after that and added some new abilities.


Crafty Opportunist:
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, +7d6 sneak attack
Every opportunity attack you make is considered to be a sneak attack.

Crippling strike: The rogue needs to be at least 10th level before taking this.

Distracting strike: If a rogue sneak attacks a flatfooted creature, that creature must make a fort save equal to the
DC=10+1/2 rogues level + the rogues dexterity modifier, or be considered flatfooted until the end of the rogues next turn.
This special ability functions only once per creature per encounter.

Shifty:
Once per round, when a melee attack misses you, you can take a free 5ft step.

Shadow stride:
You must be hiding to use this ability. You can use a move action to move your speed to a square that provides cover or concealment.
Make a hide and a move silently check during this move action. If your checks exceed the observers spot and listen check, your
passage is unnoticed and you are considered hidden in your destination square. You do not take the -5 penalty to checks for moving
your speed.

Sap: You must be using a sap to use this ability. If, during the first round of combat, you sneak attack a flatfooted creature,
you can choose to deal no damage. Then the target creature must make a fortitude save against a DC=10+1/2 rogue levels+rogues DEX modifier, if failed the target is knocked prone and unconcious for 1 min. Any damage to the target awakens it, or a creature can awake it by shaking it (a full round action). It can be used only against living creatures. The rogue needs to be at least 10th level before he can take this ability.

Undead bane:
The rogue can deal full sneak attack damage against corporal undead.

Improved Construct bane:
Same as undead bane, but against constructs.

Adaptable:
The rogue must be a target of a ability that requires a will save. Regardless of success or failure, for the next 24 h, the rogue recives a +4 competence bonus on will saves against the caster or item that forced the original will save.

Nondetection:
A rogue cloaks his mind to divination magic. Any divination magic targeting the rogue, or having the rogue in its area of effect must make a caster level check against the DC=15+rogue level. If unsucessfull, the spell or ability fails to detect the rogue. For example if a caster was scrying a fighter and a rogue was standing next to him. If the caster failed his check, he would see the fighter but not the rogue. This ability is continous, and cannot be suppresed. Requires rogue lvl 10+.

Quick Disable:
To disable a trap a rogue needs to spend only one full round action (if a trap took 1 full round to disable, it now takes a standard action). The rogue still needs to make a disable device check.

Disabler of Magic:
Prerequisites: Rogue level 10.
A rogue can use the disable device to end certain magic effects. Only spells and spell like abilities that affect a area and have a duration of one or more rounds are valid targets of this ability. The rogue must be within a melee reach of this area, and must make a disable device check with a DC of 25+ level of the spell, with a +2 modifier if the effect lasts 1 min/ CL, +4 if the duration is 10 min/ CL, or +8 if it is longer. This action is considered the same as disarming a trap with the exceptions given above. If the rogue fails the DC by 5 or more he is affected by the spell as if he was standing in the original area. Even prismatic layers can be disabled this way, however you must disable one layer at a time. Typical examples of effects that can disabled in this manner include but are not limited to: Wall of Fire, Antimagic Field, Force Cage, Otillukes resilient sphere, Evards Black tentacles, etc.

Master of Confimentl : While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling. A rogue also takes half the normal penalty for fighting in tight spaces, does not have a movement penalty for squeezing through tight spaces, and takes only -2 penalty for using light weapons during a grapple and does not need to make a grapple check to ready a light weapon during a grapple.


Even without these buffs, I don't think the rogue has much to worry about from the Factotum. The rogue is a much better survivor then the Factotum; his abilities help him out when things go wrong. And they very often do. Besides a rogue can have as much a int focus as a factotum.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-25, 06:52 PM
Having the sneak attack work against more things is a no-brainer in my book. It's no fun having your primary class feature negated by a trip through the planes. Rogues should gain the ability to use their SA against more creature types, eventually striking anything with a defined shape (IE everything but elementals & oozes).

Also, a way of bypassing DR would help balance the rogue later on. I'd make it a limited use thing, like a Pally's Smite Evil.

Draz74
2009-12-25, 07:25 PM
For combat actions, the Rogue with Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue is going to top the Factotum. It's a separate Tumble check each time you use the skill, and the Factotum's Cunning Knowledge can't be used repeatedly. The Rogue can make free action Sleight of Hand checks to strip holy symbols, ammunition, and spell components off enemies in melee to whatever extent the DM permits. And the Factotum's generally useless at scouting because they can't keep up with the Rogue's Move Silently.

... that's why most Factotums I've seen still max out their Tumble and Move Silently skills, rather than relying on Cunning Knowledge to do so. Sleight of Hand could be done the same way, if the Factotum wants to use the "steal a holy symbol" trick more than once per day.

And when the Factotum maxxes these skills, he's better at them than the Rogue (even without Cunning Knowledge) thanks to Brains over Brawn.

Gnaeus
2009-12-25, 07:41 PM
Part of the reason that Rogues are T4, not T3, is that JaronK likes factotums. for another opinion,

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6383308&postcount=17

The old poll by players about class rankings put rogues only 0.36 below Factotums on a 10 point scale, with both in the Average category.

It is very possible to argue (by people who care more than me) that the rogue should be T3 now (and this argument went a dozen pages at brilliantgameologists). There are certainly a lot of assumptions in the tier chart that may or may not apply to your game, and depending on some of the answers, rogues may be as good as factotums.

aje8
2009-12-25, 07:54 PM
Part of the reason that Rogues are T4, not T3, is that JaronK likes factotums. for another opinion,

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=17

The old poll by players about class rankings put rogues only 0.36 below Factotums on a 10 point scale, with both in the Average category.

It is very possible to argue (by people who care more than me) that the rogue should be T3 now (and this argument went a dozen pages at brilliantgameologists). There are certainly a lot of assumptions in the tier chart that may or may not apply to your game, and depending on some of the answers, rogues may be as good as factotums.
I'd strongly disagree with this.... Facototum is stronger than the rogue in most areas. And a poll shows what most people think, not the truth. It demonstrates that most think rogue is tier 3 or Factotum is tier 4, not that either is the case.

However, I'm not going to delve any fruther into that so as not to derail the thread.

Perhaps because the one of major things a rogue has on a Factotum is his defensive abilities, those should be emphasized in a rogue buff. Give the evasion ability for Will saves (Slippery Mind? I forget the name exaxtly) and then later the improved version as class features.

Gnaeus
2009-12-26, 08:16 AM
And a poll shows what most people think, not the truth.

True enough, but the tier system shows what 1 person thinks (admittedly a well informed person with lots of input) but still only 1 person. My personal opinion is that Factotum is better. But it isn't a big gap.

Samb
2009-12-26, 09:29 AM
My personal boosts for rogue include the following:
1) they gain dodge, mobilty and spring attack at 1,3 and 5.
2) every even level they get a skill boosting feat like skill focus or stealthy etc.
3) sneak is half as effective against undead and constructs.
4) special abilities are gain every 2 levels after 10 rather than 3.