AC Challenge.

[term1nally s1ck]

How high can you get yours? L20, WBL, anything you can think of.

Benchmark: Human Commoner 20, SRD only: 65 without psionics....if you cost custom psionic items as you would custom magic items: 75.

[The Deej]

how are stats done?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The "world record" is 302 with a few rounds of buffing, around...250ish, I think, without buffing; Otto the Bugbear built it a while ago on the WotC forums. I'll see if I can find a link, but their archives are screwed up at the moment.

[The Deej]

Damn. I've only worked up a 104 at the moment.

[sonofzeal]

Kobold Wilder 20 wearing a Monk's Belt

Wis can easily be as high as 36 with aging bonuses = +13
Dex doesn't matter, as we'll see later down.

Fully augmented overchannelled Force Screen = +10
Fully augmented overchannelled Inertial Armor = +17
Fully augmented overchannelled Mental Barrier = +9
Fully augmented overchannelled Defensive Precognition = +9

Monk bonus: +1 (after Monk's Belt)
Amulet of Natural Armor: +5
Skin of the Defender (which appears to stack): +4
Potion of Haste: +1
+5 Defending / +5 Defending Quarterstaff: +10
+5 Defending spikes: +5
Expanded Knowledge for Compression to Tiny gives a total +4.

Expanded Knowledge gets us Metamorphosis. Razor Boar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/razorBoar) is probably a good bet here. Since our +6 gloves of dexterity still work (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a), we gain +20 from this form.

Combat Expertise gives +5
Fighting Defensively with decent Tumble and Cautious trait gives +4
Photosynthetic Skin gives +2


Improved Natural Armour in every remaining slot (after flaws) gives us +5 natural, which technically still works in Razor Boar form.

SRD-only total, no custom items, no allies: 124

[Signmaker]

Note to all that are non-core setups: PLEASE tell me you're factoring in guardinal feathers for spell-based AC.

This has been a friendly reminder.

And yeah, ToS (ECL13) tends to max out around 60+.

[The Deej]

I was able to pull this out of my head with little effort.
I'm assuming all stats are 18s
********************************
monk 5 1+wis
swashbuckler 10 2
deulist 4 INT
Iajitsu Master 1 INT
monk's belt +1
bracers of armor 8
amulet of natual armor 5
ring of protection 5
two +5 defending weps.10
headband of int +6 +3*number of times int is added, so +6
gloves of dex +6 +3
dodge feat +1
protection devotion +7
war devotion +5
full combat expertise +20 <=wand of divine power used in conjunction
shirt w/+5 enhancement bonus +5
========================================
total: 101

[Siosilvar]

total defense action +4
full combat expertise +20 <=wand of divine power used in conjunction

Does not compute. You can't eschew your attacks and then declare an attack action (to use Improved Combat Expertise for +20).

Also, monk AC cannot be used in armor. Pick one. Nvm, I saw a "chain" in front of "shirt".

Bracers of armor don't stack with the enhancement bonus on your shirt.

With a strict reading of the rules, duelist won't add to your AC because you're using an animated shield. Key word: shield. Same with Monk. EDITninja'd: And Swashbuckler.

You forgot your base ability scores.

[tyckspoon]

Does not compute. You can't eschew your attacks and then declare an attack action (to use Improved Combat Expertise for +20).

And an Animated Shield still counts as you using it for purposes of any penalties, which kills the Monk, Duelist, and possibly Swashbuckler bonuses.

[The Deej]

Total defense still has you make one attack, at a horrible penalty.

And I guess I didn't see the caveat at the end of the animated description. Must've read it too fast.

EDIT: Bracers isn't an enhancement bonus. The shirt stacks.

*rereads combat expertise*
Nevermind. I've never actually tried this sort of build in a game, so that might be why I'm not remembering this stuff.

[ex cathedra]

My most recent Test of Spite entry is ECL13 and has 121ish AC.

Actually, considering all buffs, closer to 130. This is without any AC-boosting magic items, for the most part. So it goes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Without much effort:
Gloura (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) LA +2/ HD 7/ Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) 2/ Fighter 2/ Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1

Iron Will (Otyugh Hole), Dodge (Monk), Mobility (Monk), Power Attack (Fighter), Improved Sunder (Fighter), Improved Natural Armor (Noncombatant), Improved Natural Armor (Weak-Willed)
Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Cleave, Ascetic Mage, Divine Shield, Expeditious Dodge

Dex 40 (18 base, +10 race, +6 Enhancement, +5 Inherent, +1 levels)
Cha 38 (18 base, +6 race, +6 Enhancement, +5 Inherent, +3 levels)

Bracers of Armor +10 (100,000 gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp)
Gloves of Dex +6 (36,000 gp)
Cloak of Cha +6 (36,000 gp)
+5 Defending/+5 Defending Quarterstaff (200,300 gp)
Eternal Wand of Extended Shield (4,420 gp)
Wand of Magic Vestment, caster level 20 (45,000 gp)
Manual of Dex +5 (137,500 gp)
Tome of Cha +5 (137,500 gp)

AC:
10 base
+15 Armor (+10 Bracers, +5 Magic Vestment)
+15 Dex
+23 Shield (+4 Shield spell, +5 Magic Vestment, +14 Cha bonus Divine Shield)
+10 Natural (INAx5, +5 Amulet)
+14 Deflection (Cha bonus, Unearthly Grace)
+14 Dodge (Cha bonus, Apparent Defense)
+1 Dodge (Dodge feat, one target)
+2 Dodge (Expeditious Dodge feat)
+14 Profane (Cha bonus, Mystic Wanderer)
+14 Monk (Cha bonus, Ascetic Mage)
+12 Defending (Chosen Weapon +6/+6 converted to AC)
=144 AC, touch 96, incorporeal touch 134, flat-footed 112

[Glimbur]

Can you cast Magic Vestment on a Shield spell, or Bracers of Armor?

[The Glyphstone]

Not on a Shield Spell, and not on the Bracers without the variant rule from the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide.

[Pyro_Azer]

Current record? 620 done by Otto_the_Bugbear here:

http://community.wizards.com//go/thread/view/75882/19865126/Got_bored..._which_resulted_in_a_new_AC_record.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can you cast Magic Vestment on a Shield spell, or Bracers of Armor?

The Shield spell creates a tangible shield of force, which in turn grants a Shield bonus to AC. Magic Vestment has a range of touch, you can touch the effect of a Shield spell, therefore it would be a valid target. Same goes for the tangible armor effect of a Mage Armor spell or Bracers of Armor.

[sonofzeal]

Can anyone dethrone my SRD-only build? :smallbiggrin:

[ex cathedra]

Can anyone dethrone my SRD-only build? :smallbiggrin:

I could copy the build and add stuff like Defensive Precognition, so, yeah, probably.

[PhoenixRivers]

Outside of Core:
Dwarf Druid 11 / MoMF 7 / Deepwarden 2

Wildshape into a Shambling mound.
Pick up shock staff.
Hit yourself with 1 touch attack per round for 10 minutes.

Gain 100d4 Constitution. Average +250 con. Assume a base con of 14, Modifier is +127. AC is now 137 minimum. Note, it's actually Stupidly high, depending on how often/how long you touch attack yourself. With full attacks, it'll go much faster. Also, it's Touch AC, so it works vs most anything.

[sonofzeal]

I could copy the build and add stuff like Defensive Precognition, so, yeah, probably.
It was originally off because I thought there was a better way to get the insight bonus, but my sources were wrong. Good catch though; I'll re-add in that and a couple other things I forgot.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Fist of the Forest with one of the tricks to get infinite/arbitrarily high Con?

[Eldariel]

How about Core-only? Cleric 20 with Animal-domain, Shapechange into Pit Fiend (with Greater Rod of Extend and couple of Pearls, can be maintained all day), Bracers +8, Magic Vestment on clothes for +5 (total of +13 Armor), Amulet for +5 Nat Armor, Shield of Faith for +5 Deflection, Monk's Belt for +13 Wis (18 + 3 Age + 5 Levels + 5 Tome + 6 item), Ioun Stone for +1 Insight, Shield for +4 (Miracle it or something), Magic Vestment on Shield for +5, +14 Dex (27 base+5 inherent+6 item Dex), +1 from the Monk's Belt.

Total:
10 Base
23 Natural (Pit Fiend)
14 Dex
13 Wis
13 Armor
9 Shield
5 Deflection
5 Natural Armor Enhancement
1 Insight
1 Monk's Belt
1 Dodge (Dodge-feat)

= 95

I suppose, if we assume weapons, we could also give 'er TWFd whatever Defending for +10 to 105 and Combat Expertise + Defensive Fighting with Tumble for +8 more for 113. Since we've only used 2 feats, we could add INA 6 times for 119.

[sonofzeal]

I believe you don't benefit from Manual of Quickness of Action when not in your own physical form. However, a potion of Haste does get you an extra +1 pretty easily.

[Eldariel]

I believe you don't benefit from Manual of Quickness of Action when not in your own physical form.

Eh, well, for the purposes of this challenge you could just read the Manual after casting said spell. Though since it's Inherent bonus, I don't see why it wouldn't carry over; as far as I know, changing shape doesn't eliminate any bonuses, just replaces the old base number.

Good point on Haste; I was thinking of other untyped bonuses and missed it. That puts it at 120. Reaching that high To Hit Core-only would actually be quite difficult.


EDIT#2: I guess, technically a Bard UMDing all that crap and having Inspire Heroics on would be 4 points higher. Of course, the Cleric build is infinitely more maintainable since it can actually cast all those spells without spending any money on it at any point, but for that one-point spike, Bard would be higher I guess.

[sonofzeal]

Eh, well, for the purposes of this challenge you could just read the Manual after casting said spell. Though since it's Inherent bonus, I don't see why it wouldn't carry over; as far as I know, changing shape doesn't eliminate any bonuses, just replaces the old base number.

Good point on Haste; I was thinking of other untyped bonuses and missed it. That puts it at 120. Reaching that high To Hit Core-only would actually be quite difficult.
Inherent bonuses change your Dex score, but your Dex score gets replaced. Seems pretty clear to me. It's not an ongoing effect like the Gloves are, it's an instantaneous thing.

[Eldariel]

Inherent bonuses change your Dex score, but your Dex score gets replaced. Seems pretty clear to me. It's not an ongoing effect like the Gloves are, it's an instantaneous thing.

But it's still a bonus; I don't think Inherent bonuses get any special treatment. The only special thing about them is that they are permanent. I mean, enhancement bonus alters your Str too; it keeps doing so if you change shape. I don't see why Inherent bonus would be any different.

It's still a bonus and...well, bonuses keep being applied until their source disappears and Inherent bonuses' source never disappears. Mind you, I'm not arguing this is how I'd rule it in game; it just merely seems to me like RAW the bonuses would stick.

[PhoenixRivers]

Inherent bonuses change your Dex score, but your Dex score gets replaced. Seems pretty clear to me. It's not an ongoing effect like the Gloves are, it's an instantaneous thing.

Inherent aren't ongoing. They're a constant bonus that doesn't expire. There's no text anywhere to suggest that inherent bonuses make an instantaneous change to your base stat.

It's not a TEMPORARY bonus, granted, as it is a permanent bonus.

But a spell with a duration of Instantaneous that Blinds you and a spell with a duration of Permanent that Blinds you are mechanically different.

And nothing suggests that the bonus itself is instantaneous.

[sonofzeal]

But it's still a bonus; I don't think Inherent bonuses get any special treatment. The only special thing about them is that they are permanent. I mean, enhancement bonus alters your Str too; it keeps doing so if you change shape. I don't see why Inherent bonus would be any different.

It's still a bonus and...well, bonuses keep being applied until their source disappears and Inherent bonuses' source never disappears. Mind you, I'm not arguing this is how I'd rule it in game; it just merely seems to me like RAW the bonuses would stick.
Well, Enhancement sticks if and only if you're still wearing the Gloves, yes?

The whole issue is made more complicated by the fact that "inherent" isn't one of the official listed bonus types (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifierTypes). I always read the word literally, and treated it like the racial bonuses that Elves and Halflings get. I suppose I could be mistaken (in which case I'd better add it to mine too), but that's how I've always seen it.

btw, if it goes that way, you can't just read it in the form because neither of our builds have a duration lasting an entire week.

[Eldariel]

Hm, I got curious of how high you can get your To Hit without excessive effort. Shapechange into...Titan probably (43 base Str), Greater Heroism, Divine Favor, Righteous Might (actually, at this size it's zero-sum...), +5 weapon, Rage (the spell; if soloing this, we need spellcasting), Divine Power, True Strike...

So far we have 20 BAB, +23 (56 Str), +4 morale, +3 luck, +5 weapon, +1 Competence, +20 insight for a total of 76. Way insufficient; charge is additional +2, Higher Ground +1, Haste +1, that's +81. Then you'd still need ~+30 more to get 50/50. Ah well, just catch 'er flat-footed or something.

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, Enhancement sticks if and only if you're still wearing the Gloves, yes?

The whole issue is made more complicated by the fact that "inherent" isn't one of the official listed bonus types (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifierTypes). I always read the word literally, and treated it like the racial bonuses that Elves and Halflings get. I suppose I could be mistaken (in which case I'd better add it to mine too), but that's how I've always seen it.

btw, if it goes that way, you can't just read it in the form because neither of our builds have a duration lasting an entire week.

If it's written as an "Inherent Bonus", then it is a bonus, explicitly, by RAW.

[sonofzeal]

Hm, I got curious of how high you can get your To Hit without excessive effort. Shapechange into...Titan probably (43 base Str), Greater Heroism, Divine Favor, Righteous Might (actually, at this size it's zero-sum...), +5 weapon, Rage (the spell; if soloing this, we need spellcasting), Divine Power, True Strike...

So far we have 20 BAB, +23 (56 Str), +4 morale, +3 luck, +5 weapon, +1 Competence, +20 insight for a total of 76. Way insufficient; charge is additional +2, Higher Ground +1, Haste +1, that's +81. Then you'd still need ~+30 more to get 50/50. Ah well, just catch 'er flat-footed or something.
Feint, then Sneak Attack them with a vial of acid or something. =P

[Tavar]

Well, a brilliant energy weapon would allow you to ignore the AC bonus from armor and shields, so that would lower it by 22. You could also use dispel magic to strip away some of the spells: taking out the shapechange would lower the AC by quite a bit.

[sonofzeal]

Inherent aren't ongoing. They're a constant bonus that doesn't expire. There's no text anywhere to suggest that inherent bonuses make an instantaneous change to your base stat.

It's not a TEMPORARY bonus, granted, as it is a permanent bonus.

But a spell with a duration of Instantaneous that Blinds you and a spell with a duration of Permanent that Blinds you are mechanically different.

And nothing suggests that the bonus itself is instantaneous.
If it's not an instantaneous change, then it's dispellable by Dispel Magic and surpressable by an Antimagic Field, correct?

[term1nally s1ck]

any dispel magic would drop all this by about a billion.

My record from the srd is about 150 iirc, I'll try and find all the stuff at some point. That commoner was WBL only, didn't buff, didn't use activation-only magic items, and (stupidly) didn't use shapechange. He has about 350000 left, he could easily afford a permanent item of shapechange to a creature with huge amounts of Natural Armor. I also missed that bracers of armor and magic vestment would stack, so another +5 I think there.

This just slightly worries me...a King with huge amounts of cash to spend on protective gear could easily be carrying around a bag of pebbles that give him AC in the 100s, and saves in the 50-60s, a LOT of ways to get around targetted dispels, and would be utterly owned by any antimagic field XD

Having said that, he could always be given a magical sense, which would I believe let him detect the spell....arcane sight maybe? On that note, the bag of pebbles would probably blind the poor mage who looked at it wwith arcane sight.

Aand I need to add another +1 to the ACs above...fogot small boosts dex also.

[sonofzeal]

any dispel magic would drop all this by about a billion.
Oh, of course. It's not a competitive thing (just about everyone stands to gain and lose equally), I just want to know how it works. I've always thought it worked the one way and now people are saying it works differently. If Tomes/Manuals can be dispelled, that's pretty huge at high levels, y'know?

[PhoenixRivers]

If it's not an instantaneous change, then it's dispellable by Dispel Magic and surpressable by an Antimagic Field, correct?

To answer that, I present the following.

I drink an antitoxin. +4, noninstantaneous bonus to saves vs poison.

Is it dispellable? Does it go away in an AMF?

[sonofzeal]

To answer that, I present the following.

I drink an antitoxin. +4, noninstantaneous bonus to saves vs poison.

Is it dispellable? Does it go away in an AMF?
An inherent bonus is either the result of a spell or a magic item. That's a pretty big difference from antitoxen.

[PhoenixRivers]

An inherent bonus is either the result of a spell or a magic item. That's a pretty big difference from antitoxen.

True. Just because the effect of the spell is instantaneous doesn't mean the bonus is.

Cast Wish. Wish for 5000gp. 5000gp appears, spell over. Do the coins disappear? No. Will they go away in an AMF? No.

Cast Wish for +1 Inherent bonus to Str. Spell over. Does the bonus disappear? No. Will it go away in an AMF? No.

In other words, spells can create nonmagical effects. In fact, Wish explicitly does exactly that, in its description.

In other words: Duration of a Spell != Duration of the effect.

Another example: Grease inflicts the Prone status condition (among other things) on subjects in its area. In an AMF, would that prone target be standing? No. Why? Because the effect of the spell is sometimes independent of the duration of the spell. And yet, still nonmagical.

[sonofzeal]

True. Just because the effect of the spell is instantaneous doesn't mean the bonus is.

Cast Wish. Wish for 5000gp. 5000gp appears, spell over. Do the coins disappear? No. Will they go away in an AMF? No.

Cast Wish for +1 Inherent bonus to Str. Spell over. Does the bonus disappear? No. Will it go away in an AMF? No.

In other words, spells can create nonmagical effects. In fact, Wish explicitly does exactly that, in its description.

In other words: Duration of a Spell != Duration of the effect.

Another example: Grease inflicts the Prone status condition (among other things) on subjects in its area. In an AMF, would that prone target be standing? No. Why? Because the effect of the spell is sometimes independent of the duration of the spell. And yet, still nonmagical.
Spells can indeed produce non-magical effects. However, if the +1 Dex is a non-magical effect, then it's hard to imagine it as anything other than a change to your body, and hence would be lost when you shapechange. I admit that "hard to imagine" is not a solid RAW term, however I'll still go back to the list of modifier types. Since "inherent" isn't one of the lists, and since the list covers everything I can remember hearing about (with one exception that I'm pretty sure was a typo), IMO that leaves it in a funny undefined space.

Can anyone come up with something that's a little clearer from RAW?

[PhoenixRivers]

Spells can indeed produce non-magical effects. However, if the +1 Dex is a non-magical effect, then it's hard to imagine it as anything other than a change to your body, and hence would be lost when you shapechange. I admit that "hard to imagine" is not a solid RAW term, however I'll still go back to the list of modifier types. Since "inherent" isn't one of the lists, and since the list covers everything I can remember hearing about (with one exception that I'm pretty sure was a typo), IMO that leaves it in a funny undefined space.

Can anyone come up with something that's a little clearer from RAW?

Quite simple.

Read the text of wish. It provides a +1 inherent bonus to a stat. This defines it, RAW, as a bonus.

Bonuses do not go away, RAW, from polymorph. The base stat is changed, and the bonus is applied afterwards.

The above two statements are RAW. The two, taken together, make your point, however common sense it may be, wrong. Lump it in with drowning to heal, if you like. Rules don't always make sense.

The list you provided does not say that inherent bonuses do NOT exist. If it did, it would possibly be primary source. However, there is no contradiction. There are many forms of bonus, and not all are outlined in that thumbnail. Nonetheless, when a section of the rules (such as a spell description) defines something that it grants as a bonus, that makes it a bonus, by every standard that a bonus is.

I mean, using your logic, then an amulet of natural armor doesn't provide a bonus. After all, in the overview section, a bonus is defined as a modifier applied to a die roll. Your Natural Armor isn't a die roll.

But the item calls it a bonus. So it is. End of story.

[Eldariel]

any dispel magic would drop all this by about a billion.

SUCCESSFUL Dispel Magic. There's always that caster level cap in Greater Dispel and such, making it pretty bad for 20. Now, Disjunction on the other hand...

[sonofzeal]

Bonuses do not go away, RAW, from polymorph. The base stat is changed, and the bonus is applied afterwards.
"The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."

No mention of bonuses, either kept or not. Actually, a literal RAW reading doesn't include the words "base stat" either, so technically it could supplant any bonuses.

Also, under your reading one could continue to benefit from Gloves of Dexterity, even while Polymorphed into something with no hand slot. This runs counter to all my prior experience, both in-game and on the boards. Bonuses need to be recalculated anew in your new form, and you need to figure out which of them can be regained after the change and which of them can't.