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WyldKnight
2009-12-24, 09:48 PM
I have been in the same gaming group for a while and up until now our game of choice had been DnD 3.5. Gave 4 a good run through but ended up going back though we did take some of the niftier ideas and modified 3.5 more. Recently I voiced an opinion that DnD as a system was starting to get a little old for me and wanted to try something new. The group grudgingly accepted since no one really wanted to learn a whole new rules set. Because of this we all started looking at other systems that we knew and thought the group might like. So far brought to the table were

Werewolf the Forsaken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf:_The_Forsaken) by my cousin
Exalted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalted) by our GM
Shadowrun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun) by me

Now while we each know these systems the rest of the group don't and the person who does know it will have to teach the others. As of this moment our group is leaning towards my choice of shadowrun because you can be just about anything you want to be without the messiness of multiclassing since it is a classless based game. One person in our group already made a Legolas inspired Elf gunslinger who dual wields pistols and blades or a pistol in one hand and a blade in the other while another decided to take up the tech side and is an Ork hacker/infiltrator. Of all of us I'm the one who can learn a system usually the quickest because I can speed read and still remember what I read so I was wondering were there any systems that you the community would recommend? The group has made characters in every system and we still haven't really decided so any other opinions would be nice. We won't actually be having any sessions for at least another month which means time is on our side.

golentan
2009-12-24, 09:57 PM
I'm gonna plug traveller. The new edition is ridiculously easy to learn, it's logical, it's classless, it's fast and realistic. With some minor modification you can take part in anything from stone age to as far future as you want. A brief modification of the Psionics rules will let you do fantasy.

The one problem is the "Be anything you want to be." Character generation (in core) is random: you can nudge your guy in the general direction, but it's ultimately random. You can change that by letting everyone assign a certain number of skill points and starting funds though.

erikun
2009-12-24, 10:03 PM
Shadowrun will probably be the most similar to what you are playing currently. It is basically a "high tech D&D" with the orcs and elves, and you can either run what you normally do (run around and kill stuff) or do something completely different (break into a corp and steal stuff). Perhaps the biggest problem is that it's easy to spread yourself too thin if you aren't careful, and that combat is a lot more deadly. A troll street samurai with dermal plating is quite tough, but he'll be street pasta if he tries to charge a firing squad.

I like World of Darkness myself, but Werewolf will have a lot different playstyle than D&D. Well, unless your group played primarily druids and barbarians. If you are looking for something similar in WoD, then Changing Breeds presents a number of were-like creatures of varying power levels. A group of people playing werejackels, werebears, and wereeagles won't be tied down to the Werewolf-specific dogma, and are free to wander about as either humans or animals.

Exalted is completely different. Exalted is like epic level D&D, minus the low level stats. You only want to play Exalted if you want to play Exalted - don't play it if you still want to play D&D. :smalltongue:

Finally, I'd like to put out a recommendation for Muntants and Masterminds. It's like D&D 3.5e, minus everything but the levels, and replaced with a skill based system. Very flexible, as you can make everything from superheroes to wizards to werecreatures. Character creation is a fair bit different, but M&M has the plus of playing very similar to D&D 3.5e, so your players can pick up on it quickly.

Either way you go, have fun.

Copacetic
2009-12-24, 10:11 PM
I will doubly recommend Mutants & Masterminds. Very versatile system, very easy to pick up. It doesn't have some of the more complex, intricate things that other systems may have but it is elegant, in it's own way.

WyldKnight
2009-12-24, 10:19 PM
@Golentan
I've heard about Traveler since grade school and I have yet to take it up. Could you give me a brief example of mechanics?

@Erikun
I have played SR quite a bit with a separate group (had a 100 Karma Technomancer when the group broke up which I thought of turning into an NPC if I end up running the game) so I know exactly what your talking about. To beat the "spreading thin" we usually gave each character a roll and had them focus on that in the beginning with regular high Karma missions so they could branch out more. I have quite a few funny "oh crap" moments from when we didn't get the lethality of the game. One high point was our mage who glitched a perception check and walked straight into one pissed off Bear shaman. And when I say bear shaman I mean an actual sentient bear who was also a shaman. It did not end well for him, not well at all.

Were quite open to a completely new style of play and we get the Werewolf plot enough to actually like it. I'm guessing Changing Breeds is an advanced book for extra races?

Heh I think we may skip on Exalted just because it's a little to epic for what we want at the moment.

@Erikun/Azure
I have a MnM pdf somewhere on my computer but completely forgot to read through it. I may have to do just that. Since it's close to 3.5 least that kills some of the time needed to learn it.

erikun
2009-12-24, 10:30 PM
Changing Breeds (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13545.phtml) is a base World of Darkness supplement. Each of the "breeds" is applied to a basic WoD human to get a werecreature, just as the Werewolf template from Forsaken is applied to a human to get a Werewolf: the Forsaken character. I mention it because there is a lot less new material to remember in Changing Breeds than in Werewolf: the Forsaken. (You will still need the core World of Darkness book in either case, though.) Some of the abilities in Changing Breeds reference powers in Werewolf, so the latter book is still useful.

I think that Changing Breeds has a bit more variety in the various "breeds". Some times Werewolf feels like playing a party of barbarians (since every character can and will end up berserking). Plus, being able to play a "basic" humans as opposed to characters tied down with specific Werewolf oaths means more freedom to wander around. You might want to check with your cousin, though, on how much the Forsaken game weighs on your character - I've only played the earlier Werewolf: The Apocalypse.

golentan
2009-12-24, 10:34 PM
@Golentan
I've heard about Traveler since grade school and I have yet to take it up. Could you give me a brief example of mechanics?

So, you have your skill. Let's say Slug Rifle. It goes from 0-5 (anything more than that is epic). Now, you have what you want to succeed at (say, sniping someone). You roll 2d6, add your skill level, add any modifiers (if they're dodging it's a penalty, and combat generally has range modifiers, and the gamemaster can assign any ad hoc modifiers for how difficult the task seems), add the relevant ability modifier (as long as you can make a case, you can add it. In this example, most sniping is dex based. But if the gun has mondo recoil, you can make a case for using your strength) try to beat 8. If you succeed (or fail) by more than a narrow margin, you get "Effect" which can improve the outcome (in this case dealing additional damage).

One thing most new players don't instinctively get, even if they grasp it intellectually, is how fragile you are. All damage is dealt directly to your physical abilities, meaning if you are an olympic class athlete you have 36 "hit points" and most folks average at 21. And you're useless long before you run out completely, at which point you die. Now, your standard space marine loadout past a certain tech level involves a fun thing thing called a PGMP (Plasma Gun, Man Portable). Which deals 10d6 damage. I'm sure you can do the math. It goes right through you and kills the guy behind you, and then guy in line #3 gets some nasty burns.

Combat: Keep your head down when you have to do it, and when you don't have to do it just get out as fast as the nearest low priority target mode of transportation will take you. Just a friendly warning.

Glimbur
2009-12-24, 10:41 PM
You could try Wuthering Heights (http://www.unseelie.org/rpg/wh/index.html). It is very rules light and I have had more character deaths in this system than in Dungeons and Dragons.

WyldKnight
2009-12-24, 10:49 PM
I will think about that changing breeds then, it looks pretty spiffy.

Would you think Traveller could be used to run Mass Effect?

I'm not going to lie, reading Wuthering Heights made me laugh just a bit.

Sir Homeslice
2009-12-24, 10:52 PM
Dark Heresy is good fun.

golentan
2009-12-24, 10:56 PM
Probably. They've released supplements for Babylon 5, Judge Dredd, Hammer's Slammers, and probably some other setting so far (I still prefer Traveller Classic, though). I've played Ringworld on it, and Varley's Invaderverse.

It's fairly mod friendly: the only major variations are the equipment. Consult the pricing, and figure out how many hits something takes to kill a civilian for the damage dice, and an armored soldier for the AR of the combat gear.

Edit: Plus Biotics seem to be really easy to model with Psionics. Make players take the Psiwarrior class for a mass effect game.

NPCMook
2009-12-24, 11:17 PM
I'd like to second, or third Mutants and Masterminds, but at the same time I vote against it since its very similar to 3.5, except you only need a single d20.

Star Wars Saga Edition, but again very similar to 3.5, but is probably the best in between 3.5 and 4th Edition game out there. And Jedi aren't the End all Be all.

Traveller I second, its very open ended so you could play a Mass Effect-esque game.

Legend of the Five Rings isn't a bad system you play Samurai, while I personally don't care for it, it is a very good system, extremely deadly, like Housecat deadly in 3.5.

Warhammer Fantasy 2nd, or 3rd, both are good in their own respects, but are completely different games at the same time.

Earthdawn, Its like Medieval Shadowrun, only it uses a dicing system I don't really care for.

Call of Cthulhu for a good horror escapade!

Some people hate it, but I'll go ahead and recommend it, CthulhuTech, its Shadowrun meets Cthulhu, and anime... There's really no other way to describe it. The Dice system is interesting, adding in a bit of Poker.

Eclipse Phase, I've wanted to play this game, but currently my gaming schedule is completely full... And none of my group really knows of the game.

Fantasy Craft is another I've wanted to try, but of course for the above reason I haven't gotten a chance to really try it out.

I can't really think of anything else to add, I'd avoid Rifts, unless your group is very story oriented, or the game will fall apart.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-25, 04:22 AM
GURPS Fantasy

You know you want to.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-25, 04:51 AM
I'd like to second Cthulhutech. Rules are pretty simple, char creation doesn't take very long. And then..well. Call of Cthulhu, insane psions, shapeshifting horrors and Big effin' robots... something for everybody.

There is one thing to think about with Cthulhutech. You absolutely *must* know what sort of game you're running. Will it be a mecha game? Eldritch investigator game? A Tager game (tagers are a particular type of character, Humans who shapeshift into extradimensional horrors, which really shouldn't mix with any other sort of game in the system.) They're vastly more powerful than a normal human, but are rather squishy when it comes to mecha games beyond the lightest man-sized powered armors. Free for alls don't work very well with the system.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 05:09 AM
GURPS Fantasy

You know you want to.

i REALLY want to...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-25, 05:11 AM
i REALLY want to...

So do I. :smallfrown:

AngelOmnipotent
2009-12-25, 05:35 AM
Cthulhu (d100, not d20), anything d100 BRP based or Savage Worlds are my recommendation. Both very easy to set up and have just as much crunch based development as roleplay, so a nice balance.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-25, 05:59 AM
Unisystem!

I would suggest AFMBE, that is, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, which is highly versatile and awesome. And has zombies. There is also Witchcraft and Ghosts of Albion that are good, and I haven't tried the rest.

Rasman
2009-12-25, 06:33 AM
GURPS Fantasy

You know you want to.

I have to second this one, it's just that awesome. Think of any super hero you've ever liked or any super power you've ever wanted. Done? You can have it. GURPS is VERY open with what you can do.

Dragonus45
2009-12-25, 07:17 AM
I feel the need to plug Spirit of the Century, a game based on the old pulp comics and stories. Its fast to learn, and every session tends to be a self contained story so you can have turns at dming when the dm feels like playing for a session or two without ruining the story. Also everyone can have two or three characters if they feel like playing something different there next session.

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-25, 07:41 AM
GURPS, GURPS, GURPS!
Because who doesn't want to run traditional fantasy, modern spy adventures, space opera, modern occult horror, and SPANC (space pirate amazon ninja catgirls) in one classless system! Or if you really can't choose between genres, just play Infinite Worlds.
Also it has FUN mundane combat, disadvantages for actually different characters, and the ability to do literally anything and have the rules for it.

Unfortunately it really requires someone who really knows the system through and through, because it is fairly rules intensive. (and quite daunting to pick up)
Here is GURPS lite - a free download with the 'lite' rules (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004).

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-25, 07:45 AM
We should totally start a GURPS Fantasy game.

Armoury99
2009-12-25, 08:41 AM
Traveller, definitely.
Playing the new Judge Dredd and its great satirical scif fi/cyberpunk action - plus the Mega-city 1 random events and character gen is great... starting from age 5!

Callos_DeTerran
2009-12-25, 09:43 AM
What are tired about with D&D? The setting? The d20 system in general? What?

If it's just the fantasy settings, and since your players don't want to learn a completely new system, then I am all but obligated to mention d20 modern and it's supplements. Personally I feel they are fantastic.

jmbrown
2009-12-25, 10:49 AM
I always have to plug Dogs in the Vineyard (http://www.lumpley.com/dogsources.html). It takes place in Mormon inspired Wild West where your religion (The Faith) is the only true religion and everyone else is evil and wicked. Your job is to uphold the true Faith by enforcing justice and goodness across the known territories.

It's compact, rules light, and has one of the best town creation models. It's one of the few games that enforces a true morality system not modeled after contemporary outlooks. Your job is to uphold the faith unquestionably. If someone is disrupting goodness and order then you do what you can to show them the light...

...even if the light is through a bullet to the head. If you get a group of mature players it's an absolute blast. I stress mature because some people simply can't handle acting in a manner that's completely alien to them.

Drekk
2009-12-25, 11:20 AM
+1 for Werewolf: The Forsaken

I started out on Werewolf: The Apocalypse after my own group needed a break from D&D and it really blew me away...The setting, being so close to our own world, was a nice change from not knowing a thing about the nearest town unless we made our knowledge rolls (like many ppl, we played the WoD version of our own city, Buffalo, NY). The combat system, in particular, drew me because of it's sheer lethality. It definitely encourages thinking beyond "Power Attack," especially when guns are involved. Doesn't matter how strong you think you are, a bullet will still **** you up, especially silver ones :smallwink:

And finally, character creation tended to be much more in-depth, because the WoD is similar to our own, it's easy to come up with a beleiveable, interesting character with supernatural ties.

Bagelz
2009-12-25, 11:37 AM
If you really don't want to learn a "new system" try one of the many other
d20 sets (d20modern, call of cthulu, d20 cyberpunk, theres even a d20 world of darkness conversion).

Other than that, I am a huge fan of world of darkness. I might suggest starting witht the basic WoD setting and make becoming the werewolfs the first part of the story, ease into it. The basic rules are pretty simple, the supernatural characters are a little less so.

shadowrun 3rd had a similar dice pool system, I haven't had a chance to play the new edition.

If you still want to play high fantasy, I might suggest a crack at hackmaster. Its a bit like an ADnD parody, but much harder.
~bagelz

Kiero
2009-12-25, 11:44 AM
I feel the need to plug Spirit of the Century, a game based on the old pulp comics and stories. Its fast to learn, and every session tends to be a self contained story so you can have turns at dming when the dm feels like playing for a session or two without ruining the story. Also everyone can have two or three characters if they feel like playing something different there next session.

I like using SotC as a base to do other things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116018). It's an eminently hack-able game and works outside of the pulp base if you know what you're doing with the mechanics.


I always have to plug Dogs in the Vineyard (http://www.lumpley.com/dogsources.html). It takes place in Mormon inspired Wild West where your religion (The Faith) is the only true religion and everyone else is evil and wicked. Your job is to uphold the true Faith by enforcing justice and goodness across the known territories.

It's compact, rules light,

DitV is many things, but rules light is definitely not one of them. The dice mechanic alone is pretty damned complicated, what with escalation and all.

Artanis
2009-12-25, 12:08 PM
I have been in the same gaming group for a while and up until now our game of choice had been DnD 3.5. Gave 4 a good run through but ended up going back though we did take some of the niftier ideas and modified 3.5 more. Recently I voiced an opinion that DnD as a system was starting to get a little old for me and wanted to try something new. The group grudgingly accepted since no one really wanted to learn a whole new rules set. Because of this we all started looking at other systems that we knew and thought the group might like. So far brought to the table were

Werewolf the Forsaken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf:_The_Forsaken) by my cousin
Exalted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalted) by our GM
Shadowrun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun) by me

Now while we each know these systems the rest of the group don't and the person who does know it will have to teach the others. As of this moment our group is leaning towards my choice of shadowrun because you can be just about anything you want to be without the messiness of multiclassing since it is a classless based game. One person in our group already made a Legolas inspired Elf gunslinger who dual wields pistols and blades or a pistol in one hand and a blade in the other while another decided to take up the tech side and is an Ork hacker/infiltrator. Of all of us I'm the one who can learn a system usually the quickest because I can speed read and still remember what I read so I was wondering were there any systems that you the community would recommend? The group has made characters in every system and we still haven't really decided so any other opinions would be nice. We won't actually be having any sessions for at least another month which means time is on our side.

First off, if you're worried about only one person knowing each system, that's an advantage for Werewolf and Exalted since they run off the same dice system. That gives you two people who (basically) know them, instead of just one, so there's twice as many people to teach the others etc. etc. etc.


As for other systems...

If you want to use vehicles in any meaningful way, at any point ever, use Heavy Gear. Heavy Gear is a pretty decent system all-around, and it is built to handle vehicle creation, use, and combat from the ground up. Vehicles work so well, in fact, that it's even used for a battletech-esque miniatures game.

If you don't want to use Heavy Gear, then any universal system will work regardless of what you're trying to do. That's kinda the point of a universal system, in fact :smalltongue:. The three such systems that come to mind are GURPS, Mutants and Masterminds, and BESM. So if you take the advice to check out one (as many people are advising with GURPS), it might be worthwhile to check out the others since they all do different things with different levels of success.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:23 PM
GURPS, GURPS, GURPS!
Because who doesn't want to run traditional fantasy, modern spy adventures, space opera, modern occult horror, and SPANC (space pirate amazon ninja catgirls) in one classless system! Or if you really can't choose between genres, just play Infinite Worlds.
Also it has FUN mundane combat, disadvantages for actually different characters, and the ability to do literally anything and have the rules for it.

Unfortunately it really requires someone who really knows the system through and through, because it is fairly rules intensive. (and quite daunting to pick up)
Here is GURPS lite - a free download with the 'lite' rules (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004).

I found it to be a lot simpler than DnD...
DnD allows you to "jump in" knowing little rules, but requires constant reading afterwards...
gurps takes longer to learn, but then you know it and there isn't much more to it.


We should totally start a GURPS Fantasy game.

two thumbs up... lets do that!

taltamir
2009-12-25, 01:25 PM
What are tired about with D&D? The setting? The d20 system in general? What?

If it's just the fantasy settings, and since your players don't want to learn a completely new system, then I am all but obligated to mention d20 modern and it's supplements. Personally I feel they are fantastic.

1. The setting
2. The D20 (3d6 makes more sense as it produces as a bell curve)
3. The god mode (characters just start way too weak at level 1, and get way too strong, in odd and unexplainable ways)
4. The broken magic system
5. Having a million different magic systems instead of just spells.
6. Having classes / multi classing.
7. Needing 17 books just to make a character.

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-25, 02:26 PM
1. The setting
2. The D20 (3d6 makes more sense as it produces as a bell curve)
3. The god mode (characters just start way too weak at level 1, and get way too strong, in odd and unexplainable ways)
4. The broken magic system
5. Having a million different magic systems instead of just spells.
6. Having classes / multi classing.
7. Needing 17 books just to make a character.

For GURPS
1. ANY setting. ANYTHING. literally. and any character concept to go with it.
2. GURPS uses 3d6 (I agree with you, d20 is just too random)
3. characters without ridiculously high cost advantages that the gm is often encouraged to say no to (unkillable rank 3 - 150pts) are very kill-able. You may be a master shaolin monk, but a headshot from a sniper rifle (or even a skilled archer) will kill you. It's extremely realistic.
4. GURPS magic is very balanced. GURPS uses a skill based system for most things (including magic), and magic costs energy to use (FP or fatigue points) energy which everybody gets.
(e.g. the barbarian in the party uses his FP for mundane things like climbing, mighty blows in combat, and sprinting. The mage uses 3FP to cast fireball if he passes his (well balanced) skill check.)
5. GURPS standard magic system does use spells, but there are many other systems. Syntactic magic uses a word-noun system, symbol magic is a variant of syntactic, ritual magic uses long drawn-out rituals for powerful effects, but casting on the fly is harder. I think there are more out there. My group prefers syntactic magic.
6. GURPS uses a character point system that is very balanced in my opinion. (although with very high points and no GM supervision, characters can become unbalanced. see Q#2 for an example. don't let your players put all thier points in one advantage. The game will not be fun for them. it's like making an ubercharger except worse)
7. GURPS Basic Set is Characters and Campaigns. Characters for the players, campaigns for the GMs. They are all you need to run it, but if you want more detail in certain areas then but the supplements. The one book you will really want though is GURPS Magic. it is pretty much essential if you want to use the magic system in depth. I ran a starter without it and it worked, but Magic adds alot. I would then recommend Dungeon Fantasy if you want to run a dnd style dungeon delving, Martial Arts for an even more in depth combat system, ect. All of the source books are very well written though, and have great ideas for GMing.

in summation, GURPS is awesome. It can not only do any setting, but any style of play. from a gritty zombie campaign where players are just normal people, to players being super heroes in a futuristic metropolis fighting eldritch monstrosities.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:29 PM
For GURPS
1. ANY setting. ANYTHING. literally. and any character concept to go with it.
2. GURPS uses 3d6 (I agree with you, d20 is just too random)
3. characters without ridiculously high cost advantages that the gm is often encouraged to say no to (unkillable rank 3 - 150pts) are very kill-able. You may be a master shaolin monk, but a headshot from a sniper rifle (or even a skilled archer) will kill you. It's extremely realistic.
4. GURPS magic is very balanced. GURPS uses a skill based system for most things (including magic), and magic costs energy to use (FP or fatigue points) energy which everybody gets.
(e.g. the barbarian in the party uses his FP for mundane things like climbing, mighty blows in combat, and sprinting. The mage uses 3FP to cast fireball if he passes his (well balanced) skill check.)
5. GURPS standard magic system does use spells, but there are many other systems. Syntactic magic uses a word-noun system, symbol magic is a variant of syntactic, ritual magic uses long drawn-out rituals for powerful effects, but casting on the fly is harder. I think there are more out there. My group prefers syntactic magic.
6. GURPS uses a character point system that is very balanced in my opinion. (although with very high points and no GM supervision, characters can become unbalanced. see Q#2 for an example. don't let your players put all thier points in one advantage. The game will not be fun for them. it's like making an ubercharger except worse)
7. GURPS Basic Set is Characters and Campaigns. Characters for the players, campaigns for the GMs. They are all you need to run it, but if you want more detail in certain areas then but the supplements. The one book you will really want though is GURPS Magic. it is pretty much essential if you want to use the magic system in depth. I ran a starter without it and it worked, but Magic adds alot. I would then recommend Dungeon Fantasy if you want to run a dnd style dungeon delving, Martial Arts for an even more in depth combat system, ect. All of the source books are very well written though, and have great ideas for GMing.

all very good points, mostly what I understood from reading the gurps character's book... and the reason I want to play it :)
It seems to address every single major issue I have with DnD

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-25, 02:33 PM
all very good points, mostly what I understood from reading the gurps character's book... and the reason I want to play it :)
It seems to address every single major issue I have with DnD

Indeed, GURPS is awesome. As Yuki_Akuma said, we should start a play-by-post game here.

Glyphic
2009-12-25, 02:40 PM
Hollow Earth Expedition!

Final fantasy RPG! (http://www.returnergames.com/ord/index.php/Third_Edition_Core_Rulebook)

Gamerlord
2009-12-25, 02:44 PM
David-Morgan-Mar uses GURPS for his webcomic, must get GURPS.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how awesomesauce is GURPS? From what I understand, everything is point-buy, and it has a crazy amount of skills?
Nevermind, earlier post answered all this.
[/also wants to hear about GURPS]

So, I can run any campaign setting with GURPS? Even an unholy hybrid of every setting known to man?

Artanis
2009-12-25, 02:56 PM
David-Morgan-Mar uses GURPS for his webcomic, must get GURPS.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how awesomesauce is GURPS? From what I understand, everything is point-buy, and it has a crazy amount of skills?
Nevermind, earlier post answered all this.
[/also wants to hear about GURPS]

So, I can run any campaign setting with GURPS? Even an unholy hybrid of every setting known to man?

That's one of the things that universal systems like GURPS, M&M, and BESM are for :smallwink:

Quietus
2009-12-25, 02:59 PM
I'd say, take the games you guys have picked out. Let the person suggesting the system describe it, and a basic game - something that'll take between between two and four sessions to run, which should carry the feel of the session. If half the group is interested, then run that. Do this for all the suggestions, then go back and have an open talk about what worked for your group, and what didn't.



To Taltamir : Ever considered World of Darkness?



1. The setting
2. The D20 (3d6 makes more sense as it produces as a bell curve)
3. The god mode (characters just start way too weak at level 1, and get way too strong, in odd and unexplainable ways)
4. The broken magic system
5. Having a million different magic systems instead of just spells.
6. Having classes / multi classing.
7. Needing 17 books just to make a character.

1) D&D's setting can change, but WoD - at least the base game - carries a darker, grittier feel.
2) d10 system ends up with you using multiple dice, creating a bell curve as well
3) All characters have roughly the same survivability through the entire game, and it's somewhere around that of a 3-5 level character in D&D. That is, an ogre or troll hurts a lot, a kobold is nothing, and a troll will wreck you.
4) Can't really comment on this, it depends on which "monster" you play.
5) This is still an issue, although it's limited. If you're playing Werewolf, then everyone's a werewolf, and you don't worry about Mage spells.
6) No classes, it's a purely skill-based system, plus whatever "edge" your supernatural creature of choice gets.
8) One, or two at max. The base WoD book, and your Werewolf/Mage/whatever book.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-25, 03:03 PM
That's one of the things that universal systems like GURPS, M&M, and BESM are for :smallwink:

No, that's what Risus is for - and, in fact, what Risus is by default.

pasko77
2009-12-25, 03:06 PM
I'd suggest WFRP 2nd edition.
I still don't know how 3rd edition is.

erikun
2009-12-25, 03:10 PM
2. The D20 (3d6 makes more sense as it produces as a bell curve)

2. GURPS uses 3d6 (I agree with you, d20 is just too random)
I've never quite understood the desire to switch from d20 to 3d6. Yes, it does make the "natural 18" less common. However, having a more common average roll doesn't matter much when the only results are "success" and "failure". That is, it doesn't matter in most systems if you beat a roll by 5 or by 20; you succeed all the same. (GURPS may be different, though.)

Plus, it's kind of hard to determine how just a bonus on a bell curve than a flat line - simply because it changes depending on the target number. +4 on a d20 is a 20% difference, every time. On a 3d6 though, +4 can be anything from a 6% to 44% difference. It's more difficult to make something harder (or easier) by a set amount on a 3d6.

Cybren
2009-12-25, 03:11 PM
GURPS as stated previously. Cuz it's great
Hackmaster, because it's awesome and funny
Why not try D&D 4th edition? It's also very good.


I've never quite understood the desire to switch from d20 to 3d6. Yes, it does make the "natural 18" less common. However, having a more common average roll doesn't matter much when the only results are "success" and "failure". That is, it doesn't matter in most systems if you beat a roll by 5 or by 20; you succeed all the same. (GURPS may be different, though.)


There are many situations in GURPS where margin of success is important. It also means that characters with competency in a skill have a good chance of success at it. And since you're rolling under your skill level, "Bow-14" or "Armory-12" already tells you how good you are at it and how likely you are to succeed.



Plus, it's kind of hard to determine how just a bonus on a bell curve than a flat line - simply because it changes depending on the target number. +4 on a d20 is a 20% difference, every time. On a 3d6 though, +4 can be anything from a 6% to 44% difference. It's more difficult to make something harder (or easier) by a set amount on a 3d6.
That's the point. a +1 to someone with a skill 10 means more than it would to someone with a skill 14, yeah. But the person with skill 14 is still going to be succeeding more often. And can take a higher penalty from doing a more difficult task (or using special techniques or maneuvers, especially in combat) This also means skills you only have passing familiarity with are more likely to succeed at easy, but nontrivial tasks (that might warrant a +1 to 4).

The bell curve "breaks down" if you start passing skills of 20-30, of course, but so does a d20 as your bonuses become larger than the roll. And skills of 30 are both expensive, rare, and not quite as useful as more skills in the low 20s. (The idea of having skills above 18 is that you can absorb more penalties when using it and still have a high success rate)

Gamerlord
2009-12-25, 03:12 PM
GURPS as stated previously. Cuz it's great
Hackmaster, because it's awesome and funny
Why not try D&D 4th edition? It's also very good.

Hackmaster costs too much :smallfrown: .

GlasgowPhill
2009-12-25, 03:13 PM
I've had particular fun with Deadlands, first time GMing a tabletop game as my group of friends are all live action roleplayers mostly. We've based things only very loosely on the Deadlands system though as the setting is the world of the tv series Supernatural, with the party as a group of starting out Hunters.

Deadlands as a system is just so much more interesting than anything simply d20, using all varieties of dice, decks of cards and poker chips, as a GM I've also enjoyed the aspects of the game which allow for more storytelling and less reliance on rollings dice all the time.

Whenever the game finishes we're probably looking like running a similar game based in the Serenity/Firefly 'verse as again it looks easily translated from the Weird West.

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-25, 03:45 PM
So, I can run any campaign setting with GURPS? Even an unholy hybrid of every setting known to man?

There is even a specific setting for it called infinite worlds. There are infinite alternate universes, ranging from worlds where Nazis did take over the world, to magic being real, to the United States of Lizardia, where everyone in the world is a lizard.

Also, as I said before, SPANC. Who doesn't want to be an amazon pirate ninja catgirl in space?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-25, 03:52 PM
Hey, you guys who want to play GURPS? Let's not derail this thread and go here instead. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7571398)

taltamir
2009-12-25, 04:00 PM
To Taltamir : Ever considered World of Darkness

yes, I read the mage and werewolf books and I would love to play it... never have before, but that is just due to lack of group


David-Morgan-Mar uses GURPS for his webcomic, must get GURPS.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how awesomesauce is GURPS? From what I understand, everything is point-buy, and it has a crazy amount of skills?
Nevermind, earlier post answered all this.
[/also wants to hear about GURPS]

So, I can run any campaign setting with GURPS? Even an unholy hybrid of every setting known to man?

linky?


Indeed, GURPS is awesome. As Yuki_Akuma said, we should start a play-by-post game here.

I am in... lets do it!

Reverent-One
2009-12-25, 08:15 PM
Probably. They've released supplements for Babylon 5, Judge Dredd, Hammer's Slammers, and probably some other setting so far (I still prefer Traveller Classic, though). I've played Ringworld on it, and Varley's Invaderverse.

It's fairly mod friendly: the only major variations are the equipment. Consult the pricing, and figure out how many hits something takes to kill a civilian for the damage dice, and an armored soldier for the AR of the combat gear.

Edit: Plus Biotics seem to be really easy to model with Psionics. Make players take the Psiwarrior class for a mass effect game.

Dang, I really want to play a traveller game now. I got the two-volume reprint of the classic traveller books some time back, and loved it as I looked through it, but never had a group to play with.

Knaight
2009-12-25, 08:35 PM
I'm going to point out GURPS and Savage Worlds again briefly. Both are cool. Now to the main point.

Spirit of the Century is pretty much ideal, and free. Its very hackable, because it is just a Fate setting, and Fate is a generic system. Which is based on Fudge, which is what I would advise pointing out. Points in its favor.

1. You can do any setting you want. I've seen bunnies, I've seen standard fantasy, I've seen personality fragments fighting for the control of a mind.

2. It has a bell curve, using a die system that basically comes down to 4d3-8. However, the actual dice involved make it much cleaner and easier to do things.

3. Character Power and Advancement are hugely scalable. Maybe advancement doesn't happen at all, just a refocusing. Maybe advancing quickly does work. Maybe you are playing superheroes, maybe average people. Oh, and it isn't level based at all.

4. There are a bunch of magic systems to choose from for the GM, but each setting only has as many as needed. Maybe just a spell system, maybe a freer system. Lots of choices.

5. Did I mention it was classless? Because it is, unless you want to implement levels. Which is easy enough, but why would you want to.

6. You have 1 needed book, and it is free. http://www.fudgerpg.com/
But there is other stuff all over the place that you can plug in.

7. It is a hugely free system, and you can plug in and plug out whatever you want.

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-26, 08:11 PM
The bell curve "breaks down" if you start passing skills of 20-30, of course, but so does a d20 as your bonuses become larger than the roll. And skills of 30 are both expensive, rare, and not quite as useful as more skills in the low 20s. (The idea of having skills above 18 is that you can absorb more penalties when using it and still have a high success rate)

actually skills of 30 aren't just rare and very expensive, they are supernatural. no human, in any close to realistic game will have a skill of 30. in a supernatural game however, a skill of 30 will enable you to hack a supercomputer network with a PDA, hit someone in the eye a mile away with a bow, or cast any spell in a tenth of the time for very little FP. not disagreeing with you completely, just informing the public it doesn't "break down" with extremely high point heroic characters, skills just act more like scaling advantages.

note: When I supernatural here, I'm not talking about magic, but larger than life stuff.

Lord of Syntax
2009-12-26, 08:54 PM
:smallamused::smallamused: Mutants and Masterminds 2e wins everything. ever. :smallamused::smallamused:

Dimers
2009-12-27, 01:58 AM
I've never quite understood the desire to switch from d20 to 3d6. Yes, it does make the "natural 18" less common. However, having a more common average roll doesn't matter much when the only results are "success" and "failure". That is, it doesn't matter in most systems if you beat a roll by 5 or by 20; you succeed all the same. (GURPS may be different, though.)

Plus, it's kind of hard to determine how just a bonus on a bell curve than a flat line - simply because it changes depending on the target number. +4 on a d20 is a 20% difference, every time. On a 3d6 though, +4 can be anything from a 6% to 44% difference. It's more difficult to make something harder (or easier) by a set amount on a 3d6.

A significant problem with the single-d20 roll is the prevalence of outstanding successes and failures. Five percent of the time, no matter how awful you are with the skill, you win; and five percent of the time you lose, even if your skill is vastly beyond the task at hand. ("Taking 10" solves the latter, but you can't do it under stress.)

And as others have said -- yeah, GURPS does include lots of situational stuff where the margin of success determines how profound an effect you create. The differential effect of a flat bonus/penalty does make sense in play: people with moderate skill will make better use of bonuses than complete noobs, while experts don't need the help as much; people with moderate skill have to worry about minor difficulties, while experts shrug them off and beginners are mostly succeeding on luck anyway.

Beyond the mechanics, though, the 3d6 and d20 just appeal to different mindsets. I want my character to be perform solidly under pressure and I don't mind missing out on wild successes, so I prefer a die roll that gives me average numbers. For some people, that takes one part of the fun out of the game.

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-27, 09:50 AM
A significant problem with the single-d20 roll is the prevalence of outstanding successes and failures. Five percent of the time, no matter how awful you are with the skill, you win; and five percent of the time you lose, even if your skill is vastly beyond the task at hand. ("Taking 10" solves the latter, but you can't do it under stress.)

And as others have said -- yeah, GURPS does include lots of situational stuff where the margin of success determines how profound an effect you create. The differential effect of a flat bonus/penalty does make sense in play: people with moderate skill will make better use of bonuses than complete noobs, while experts don't need the help as much; people with moderate skill have to worry about minor difficulties, while experts shrug them off and beginners are mostly succeeding on luck anyway.

Beyond the mechanics, though, the 3d6 and d20 just appeal to different mindsets. I want my character to be perform solidly under pressure and I don't mind missing out on wild successes, so I prefer a die roll that gives me average numbers. For some people, that takes one part of the fun out of the game.

I know, that is my biggest problem with d20. any skill checks that you must take often just break down with a 1 or 2. I know the Truenamer just had terribly designed mechanics, the main reason skill based magic doesn't work in dnd is the d20 skill roll. Fax Celestis recently made a new class called the cartomancer, and it is great. Unfortunately, due to the randomness of the d20, if you get a bad roll, a master can fail a firebolt check, and take some damage. Then a level 1 character resurrects a party member instantly with a good roll.

I know some people like crits more often, but a dnd crit just isn't very special. With 3d6, a natural 18 can be truly spectacular because it is rarer. in dnd you can't play with critical skill rolls, it just happens too often. in my last session we had a player who crit failed 2 sense motive checks, and we all thought the townspeople were part of some big conspiracy.

Natael
2009-12-27, 12:09 PM
GURPS, GURPS, GURPS!
Because who doesn't want to run traditional fantasy, modern spy adventures, space opera, modern occult horror, and SPANC (space pirate amazon ninja catgirls) in one classless system! Or if you really can't choose between genres, just play Infinite Worlds.
Also it has FUN mundane combat, disadvantages for actually different characters, and the ability to do literally anything and have the rules for it.

Unfortunately it really requires someone who really knows the system through and through, because it is fairly rules intensive. (and quite daunting to pick up)
Here is GURPS lite - a free download with the 'lite' rules (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004).

I have to pimp GURPS as well. On a Star Wars game I basically just handed a friend that has never RPed before the book and he was able to assemble his stats and skill list quite easily, very intuitive on that end. Combat can be tricky, but so much of it is optional or gives rules to simplify it that it can get nearly as basic as d20. Can easily convert (and I think it has books for Werewolf), tons of theme/setting books, overall well done if you put just a little effort in.

Call of Cthulhu is quite fun if you enjoy a horror setting and players don't mind dying from monsters with stats like (80% Eats Tastiest Adventurer).

I have to pimp my favorite setting: 7th Sea (not Swashbuckling Adventures, stay away from that d20 crap). Tough to find actual hard cover books, easy to find some pdfs (legit and otherwise). It uses roll and keep (d10's, roll some, keep others based on your skill/stats) and is based in a high seas renaissance era like Europe like setting (with some Muslim and Asian type areas as extra), where all the wonderful conspiracies, magic, and fairy tale creatures exist. Players are all human (some options give a little fey blood), and most of the other races are fairly hidden and mysterious. No armor is a mandated assumption (with the exception of some stuff that some German nobles can get), lost of swords and brawling, though archery and firearms exist, though if you can reload a pistol/musket fast enough to use a second time in a combat, you've got a pretty crazy powered character.

I've not used Mutants and Masterminds, but I hear it is quite popular and able to do many things, may be a good GURPS substitute, especially if you're doing super heroes, but I've had good luck with supers in GURPS.

Avoid BESM like the plague, while the point buy is nice, it is exceptionally difficult to balance the game, and it can be clunky and not so awesome. Mutants and Masterminds or GURPS would be far better systems if that is what you're looking for (and I assume M&M can pull an anime feel, know for a fact GURPS can with only small amounts of work).

I've liked World of Darkness stuff well enough, especially Mage, system is decent (only a little bit restrictive on character creation, but that is only due to my being used to GURPS). Can't comment too much on it, except to say you probably will not be making a bad choice playing.

Shadowrun is quite fun, loved it when I was younger, though nows a days I've got a preference for the extra random races (dwarf, elf etc...) to not be around my cyberpunk. They integrate fantasy races and magic into it well though, and I've always had a blast when I played. Death can easily be as common as Call of Cthulhu though if you're not really careful and calculating, or your GM is sadistic (and always having the Johnsons double cross you). I've played 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition before, but can't recall the differences, been such a long time. Ask those here or try to find some reviews online.

Star Wars, if you're interested, I've heard good stuff from Saga (reading much of it I found it decent, though somewhat restrictive and some standard arbitrary low levels can't do nice things with money Wizards of the Coast balance). As mentioned before, I converted it to GURPS really easily (and there is a site out there with a really nice conversion guide). However, the absolute best version of Star Wars is the old Westend Games d6 version, I think you can buy the legit PDFs at drivethru or something like that, can probably amazon or hobby store scrounge for them too.

There are a ton of specific systems for movies/TV shows, like Firefly, Buffy, Star Wars, Star Trek (a lot of ST to sort through, I played a good one recently, but don't recall the company) etc...

There is a good chance I have one of the largest systems played list out of the playgrounders, so feel free to PM me with more info on other ideas, as even giving a list of what I've played would be too wall of text (which reminds me, I ought to just make a list out of it just so I can remember).

Hope of this helps someone.

Thatguyoverther
2009-12-27, 01:37 PM
Although no one ever listens, I'll push Hero System. Or if you have to choose and inferior system, GURPS is alright. It almost begins to approach the things you can do in Hero System.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 03:10 PM
I have to pimp my favorite setting: 7th Sea (not Swashbuckling Adventures, stay away from that d20 crap). Tough to find actual hard cover books, easy to find some pdfs (legit and otherwise). It uses roll and keep (d10's, roll some, keep others based on your skill/stats) and is based in a high seas renaissance era like Europe like setting (with some Muslim and Asian type areas as extra), where all the wonderful conspiracies, magic, and fairy tale creatures exist. Players are all human (some options give a little fey blood), and most of the other races are fairly hidden and mysterious. No armor is a mandated assumption (with the exception of some stuff that some German nobles can get), lost of swords and brawling, though archery and firearms exist, though if you can reload a pistol/musket fast enough to use a second time in a combat, you've got a pretty crazy powered character.

I completely agree with everything said here, and played in a 7th Sea campaign for years. Have pretty much all the books atm...just need to get the rare and bloody expensive Swordsman's Guild.

It has a very, very well done background for intrigue, diplomacy, etc that Ive not seen equalled anywhere else, and combat is quite fun as well. Generally quicker than D&D, too.

Jayabalard
2009-12-30, 03:18 PM
7. Needing 17 books just to make a character.You don't really need that many books to make a character... it's just very tempting to do so.

GURPS has a somewhat similar problem; you can easily "need" a dozen books or more to create/play a particular character.


So, I can run any campaign setting with GURPS? Even an unholy hybrid of every setting known to man?Actually, Genre mashups is one of the places where it really shines.


a skill of 30 will enable you to <snip>hit someone in the eye a mile away with a bowActually, I think range and called target modifiers may still make that pretty unlikely... eyes is -9 and I think a mile is something close to -18, isn't it?

taltamir
2009-12-30, 03:26 PM
I've never quite understood the desire to switch from d20 to 3d6. Yes, it does make the "natural 18" less common. However, having a more common average roll doesn't matter much when the only results are "success" and "failure". That is, it doesn't matter in most systems if you beat a roll by 5 or by 20; you succeed all the same. (GURPS may be different, though.)

Plus, it's kind of hard to determine how just a bonus on a bell curve than a flat line - simply because it changes depending on the target number. +4 on a d20 is a 20% difference, every time. On a 3d6 though, +4 can be anything from a 6% to 44% difference. It's more difficult to make something harder (or easier) by a set amount on a 3d6.

Yes nat 18 and nat 3 more rare...
but more importantly, you have a more "average" roll most of the time...
rolling under 5 or over 15 for 3 times in a row is rare. Heck, rolling under 5 or over 15 once is a lot less common than around around 10.
2d10 will also work, although not as neatly.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-12-30, 03:29 PM
I'm gonna chime in for World of Darkness too. You can effectively play it with any core book, including the base World of Darkness book. But yeah. The setting is quite good, essentially the real world (so you can drag in whatever real-world knowledge you want) plus a supernatural element. The core mechanic is tight (add up "dots" in the appropriate attributes), and in my mind provides for a very fun setup. It's much less focused on "leveling up" so much as understanding your personal attributes.

That, and the Virtue/Vice system is just cool.

Jayabalard
2009-12-30, 03:34 PM
kind of suprising that none of the GURPS fans have mentioned it, but you can get a cut down version of it for free: GURPS Lite (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004). This is sufficient for a very simple game to get an idea how the system works. There's also Caravan to Ein Arris (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-2103), which is the demo adventure that used to be included along with the basic book.

GURPS lite is included as part of GURPS Discworld, so you can play games in discworld with only that book (at least in theory).

There's also a modified version of GURPS lite that is the core of Transhuman space; I have not played it but I have read nothing but glowing reviews for it.