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drevil
2009-12-25, 07:33 PM
My lvl 15 archer is going to max his hide skill in order to snipe his enemy down before they see him.

Hide skill check:
1D20
+ 18 ranks
+ 7 DEX-modifier
+ 10 Ring of Chameleon
+ 40 improved invisibility
-20 Hide when sniping
= 1D20 + 55 (undetectable from distance?)

Kill the enemy from a long distance not getting discovered with true seeing and scent.

1. Is sniping a good tactic? Anybody have Experience with this?

2. How can I further improve the skill in CORE?
I dont want to waste a feat on Stealty (+2 bonus).
Somebody mentioned something about magic items boosting skills with:
+30 competence bonus
+10 insight bonus
+10 luck bonus
Where in DMG? What is the price?

Thanks.

Arakune
2009-12-25, 07:37 PM
My lvl 15 archer is going to max his hide skill in order to snipe his enemy down before they see him.

Hide skill check:
1D20
+ 18 ranks
+ 7 DEX-modifier
+ 10 Ring of Chameleon
+ 40 improved invisibility greater invisibility
-20 Hide when sniping
= 1D20 + 55 (undetectable from distance?)

Kill the enemy from a long distance not getting discovered with true seeing and scent.

1. Is sniping a good tactic? Anybody have Experience with this?


Not that useful on indoors, and a lot of adventures are a form of dungeoncrawling. If you expect to go outdoors a lot, go for it. Just remember to maximize your spot check, and to not relly a lot from sneak attacks. Your intention is to kill the enemy from far away, right?

Draz74
2009-12-25, 07:45 PM
+ 40 improved invisibility
Arguably doesn't stack with some other bonuses, since it's kind of a different kind of hiding.


1. Is sniping a good tactic? Anybody have Experience with this?
Not really a good tactic -- it's a good way to start combat, but it takes too long to deal damage to kill any significant target in a practical amount of time. Especially if you have a party around, and especially if you're not adding any Sneak Attack damage (which can't be done from more than 30 feet away).


2. How can I further improve the skill in CORE?
I assume you don't want to take Skill Focus (hide) either, if you don't want Stealthy.

Then, the main way you're missing is to be a Small (or smaller) race.

You could also get a +15 competence bonus instead of the +10 bonus your Ring gives you, by getting the Greater Shadow enhancement on your armor. A lot more expensive, though.

A Stone of Good Luck will also get you a +1 luck bonus that your DM shouldn't mind. But it's also expensive.


Somebody mentioned something about magic items boosting skills with:
+30 competence bonus
+10 insight bonus
+10 luck bonus
Where in DMG?

The Custom Items Creation Guidelines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). Which aren't really rules ... a lot of DMs don't allow them. Especially when they're used abusively to really optimize one skill, like this.

elonin
2009-12-25, 08:01 PM
Can't remember if this was a feat but there is an ability out there in core that lets you extend your sna range to 60'. Also if getting your hide skill is that much a priority then exemplar would help. This does have the downside of taking skill focus as a prereq.

ericgrau
2009-12-25, 09:46 PM
-1 to spot checks per 10 feet. Composite bows have 110 foot range increments and a max range of 1100 feet. Add 50% with far shot. Double with the distance enchantment. That's if you're hiding. If your opponent isn't hiding behind something (i.e., almost impossible to travel), he doesn't get a hide check. With a speed of maybe 60-120 feet per round, he'll be in trouble for a while unless there's total cover nearby.

Really you should be focusing on damage and finding your target. Even with the -20 penalty the hiding is the easy part. Grab some shadow armor and you're good to go. Since this barely affects your build, you can make w/e archer you want and merely leave sniping as an option. A strength bonus plus up to 8d6 in damage enchantments is a start. Greater magic weapon and flame arrow help even more. Another 3d6 in damage enchantments on your arrows plus bane of every kind, every metal type, etc. takes it even further.

drevil
2009-12-26, 06:34 AM
So sniping is not all that great, huh?
I kinda liked the idea of insane hide skills, since it can only be twarted by an insane spot if you are far away.
From far away, hide will not be affected by magic nor scent.

Is Greater Shadow enhancement CORE?

A valid point is that sniping wont give me enough time to kill the enemy before it hides. Only one arrow.
High damage output is important.

@ericgrau: How do you get 8D6 in magic enchantments? CORE?

Eloel
2009-12-26, 08:14 AM
Stop using core as if it was an abbreviation - it isn't.

On topic, sniping isn't all that great when you realize Protection from Arrows is a 2nd level spell, and you don't do much damage anyways. It starts sucking when you have an enemy with Deflect Arrows, which completely shuts you down.

quiet1mi
2009-12-26, 10:54 AM
First off If they are casting protection from arrows, they know your there. I challenge you to find any batman who waste a slot in all but late game (when they have enough slots).

Watch... Dispel Magic is a 3rd level spell, at the early level, it counters and suppresses all your defenses or what ever you are casting at the time, does this make casting bad? Of course not... Theoretical optimization I will agree with you but in a practical game, not so much...

Spot is important as you get a -1 penalty per 10 feet you are away... In addition your target, will be at a -5 penalty because they are distracted before you introduce them to an arrow.

Ideally sniping is best left to the outdoors where you have camouflage and concealment... Indoors in a place like a typical dungeon, a short range assault mindset is needed...

make sure that you get some sudden strike or sneak attack damage or a death attack. I recommend the archery handbook on the Wizard's boards...

ericgrau
2009-12-26, 10:59 AM
Besides requiring the to already know that you're coming, protection from arrows doesn't work on magic arrows. Deflect arrows (or more likely a glove of arrow snatching) is rare and useless against sniping as it requires you to be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.



@ericgrau: How do you get 8D6 in magic enchantments? CORE?
flaming, frost, holy (+2), merciful, shock = +6. Dang. Looks like you'll have to settle for some burst enchantments. Get improved critical or keen or keen edge and it won't be so bad.

Almost all recommendations thus far are good for a general purpose archer. So when you can't snipe you're good to go. When you can it is excellent, as you can get in multiple free damage attacks before they find you or get away, as your range greatly dwarfs most creatures' movement speed.

Eldariel
2009-12-26, 08:40 PM
Keen isn't a ranged weapon special ability. I'd almost suggest getting Seeking as the chance of having to deal with Cover or Concealment at long ranges is very high and that allows you even to shoot with perfect accuracy with 0 visibility (as long as you can pinpoint your opponents), making it great in poor weather, under the effect of various area control spells, in darkness and such.

But yeah, you're stuck with 6d6 base in Core (5d6 if immune to nonlethal opp) without going into very unreliable options like Axiomatic, Anarchic, Bane and company.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-26, 09:52 PM
Yes, Prot from Arrows sucks. Wind Wall, however, which also deflects small fliers and gases and forces Conc checks is fairly awesome and should always be kept prepared(Via Shadow Evoc, of course).

Flickerdart
2009-12-26, 10:04 PM
You might want to entertain the notion of the Arcane Archer's Arrow of Death. The DC is pitifully low, but you could convince your DM that Ability Focus and such are eligible for it. Alternately, become intimately familiar with poisons, there was a Handbook somewhere but I can't find it.

Eldariel
2009-12-26, 10:07 PM
You might want to entertain the notion of the Arcane Archer's Arrow of Death. The DC is pitifully low, but you could convince your DM that Ability Focus and such are eligible for it. Alternately, become intimately familiar with poisons, there was a Handbook somewhere but I can't find it.

Even with Ability Focus-line, reaching the point where any opponent would fail the save on anything but 1 is hard; you don't get it before level 16 pretty much ever and that's friggin' Duskblade entry. That particular ability is pretty much never worth it unless you're allowed a rewrite that adds a stat to the DC.

Flickerdart
2009-12-26, 10:25 PM
True, no reason that it couldn't be 10+AA level+DEX or something. Since it's usable only once per 2 days at best, it wouldn't be unbalanced at all.

Draz74
2009-12-26, 10:33 PM
Is Greater Shadow enhancement CORE?

Yes it is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shadowGreater) I'm generally smart enough to restrict myself to the sources someone requests ...

Eldariel
2009-12-26, 10:49 PM
True, no reason that it couldn't be 10+AA level+DEX or something. Since it's usable only once per 2 days at best, it wouldn't be unbalanced at all.

Since it's Arcane Archer, I prefer 10+AA Level+Casting Stat, but that requires rewriting AA so it actually has something to do with casting other than the Only Worthwhile Ability, Imbue Arrow.

And yeah, it'd still be only as good as a Wizard's average Save-or-Die, and only can target one save so it's DEFINITELY not broken in the least. Even on level 20, it's only 1 point higher than a level 9 Wizard spell's save assuming Wiz's casting stat is equal to the stat Arrow of Death's DC would be derived from. And Wiz can cast a dozen of them, AA one.

And Wiz doesn't need to hit AC for it to even have a chance of working. Ability Focus = Greater Spell Focus (which is otherwise a hundred times more useful; something as simple as Transmutation offers a nice array of SoX effects in Fort and Will). So yeah, when we can conclude that a capstone ability, even heavily buffed, is still weaker than an average Wizard-spell, we can figure that no, it's not breaking games any time soon.

drevil
2009-12-28, 05:17 AM
Stop using core as if it was an abbreviation - it isn't.


My english is bad.
I dont know what an abbreviation is. Explain.




Wind wall is very annoying spell for an archer.
I wont be able to hurt enemies with a wind wall.
Or am I?

Reinboom
2009-12-28, 05:31 AM
My english is bad.
I dont know what an abbreviation is. Explain.

An abbreviation is a condensed, truncated, or representative series of letters for words. Usually, you note an abbreviation by placing am apostrophe after the new word, a period after the new word, a period after each letter of the new word, or by capitalizing each portion of the new word that came from a different word.

Examples:
etc. = et cetera
BRB = Be Right Back


By always saying the word "core" as "CORE" you are suggesting it is an abbreviation for a different term.


On a similar note, I'm unsure if you are using it to mean what you may or may not think it means. By stating, "How do you get 8D6 in magic enchantments? CORE?", you are presenting 2 different questions that can imply:
"How do you get 8D6 magic enchantments in the entirety of 3.5?"
"How do you get 8D6 magic enchantments in just the core rulebooks of 3.5?"
Or, possibly:
"How do you get 8D6 magic enchantments in the entirety of 3.5?"
"Is this process available with just the core rulebooks of 3.5?"
Both of which are silly to present the first question with if you just need the second (in general).

Killer Angel
2009-12-28, 06:22 AM
I wont be able to hurt enemies with a wind wall.
Or am I?

Wind wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm).
"Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss".

There are exceptions for different projectile types, but if you rely only on a bow, without significant size modifiers, you cannot hit.

Edit: Drevil, why make 2 different threads for the same argument (archer build)? imo we're discussing two aspects of the same thing: with only one thread you should avoid dispersive discussions.

drevil
2009-12-28, 06:24 AM
I see. I wrote "CORE", but I should have written "core".
Thanks for the explanation, SweetRein.

drevil
2009-12-28, 06:37 AM
Wind wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm).
"Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss".

There are exceptions for different projectile types, but if you rely only on a bow, without significant size modifiers, you cannot hit.


How can significant size modifiers help against a Wind wall?
Wall is 10 ft./level long and 5 ft./level high.
I could fly right above the rascal and arrow him down, couldn't I?

Killer Angel
2009-12-28, 06:46 AM
How can significant size modifiers help against a Wind wall?
Wall is 10 ft./level long and 5 ft./level high.
I could fly right above the rascal and arrow him down, couldn't I?

Siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected, so you can argue that if your size is increased to gargantuan (or even only huge), you can bypass the WW, but i don't know if there is a RAW reference.
To fly around, is another matter.

Ruinix
2009-12-28, 08:50 AM
1- for damage take a bow with the enhancement "Spliting", from Champion of Ruin. is a +3 enhance.

if not. a Force Bow, must burn a feat of relique i think, but it worth. the arrows convert in Force and bipass any DR and most of defenses like "deflect arrow"

Force enhance is a +2 and work same as the relique bow.

2- in game with party is a pure CRAP build/tactic. why? cause u HAVE burn a lot of things (money, feats, position, volley damage) just for "snip" and the other PCs want to fight, so they dont just wait to u and in the most situation the snip tatic just dont fit.

for solo campaing is crap too :p and depend on the positional situation.

ericgrau
2009-12-28, 01:04 PM
Yes, Prot from Arrows sucks. Wind Wall, however, which also deflects small fliers and gases and forces Conc checks is fairly awesome and should always be kept prepared(Via Shadow Evoc, of course).

The other complaint for protection from arrows still holds. No one ever prepares wind wall unless he already knows you're coming or sometimes if he's level 20 with nothing better to prepare. Even then, the hiding sniper shoots first and then leaves to re-engage at a better time.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-28, 10:16 PM
The other complaint for protection from arrows still holds. No one ever prepares wind wall unless he already knows you're coming or sometimes if he's level 20 with nothing better to prepare. Even then, the hiding sniper shoots first and then leaves to re-engage at a better time.Not at low levels, no. But once you can get Overland Flight up, archers, fliers, and casters are the only things that can hit you. Wind Wall eliminates Archers and some fliers from the equation, so it's entirely worth a slot. Especially if you're using Shadow Evocation, in which case you can turn the slot into something else if you don't need it.