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View Full Version : Strange Charisma based monk build, could use input



Soranar
2009-12-25, 09:32 PM
Race Chaos Gnome

Alignment Lawful Good

Stats (30 point buy)

STR 12 (6 pts)
DEX 16 (6 pts)
CON 16 (6 pts)
INT 14 (6pts)
WIS 8 (0 pts)
CHA 16 (6pts)

1 Monk (holy monk variant, ghurka weapon school) Underfoot Combat
2 Monk bonus feat: combat reflexes (also gain evasion)
3 Paladin exotic shield proficiency, Gnome Battle Cloak
4 Paladin
5 Battle Sorcerer
6 Battle Sorcerer Divine Shield
7 Battle Sorcerer
8 Battle Sorcerer
9 Battle Sorcerer ascetic Mage
10 Battle Sorcerer
11 Battle Sorcerer
12 Battle Sorcerer Confound the Big
Folk
13 Battle Sorcerer
14 Battle Sorcerer
15 Battle Sorcerer practiced spellcaster
16 Battle Sorcerer
17 Battle Sorcerer
18 Battle Sorcerer Improved Combat
Reflexes
19 Battle Sorcerer
20 Battle Sorcerer

Was wondering what you think of this build, what type of spells you would use? I was thinking of using a reduce person spell to maximise underfoot combat and eventually use Confound the Big Folk, my damage looks minimal but ascetic mage makes me able to sacrifice spells to get decent damage bonuses and my AC should be pretty strong

noiadodh
2009-12-25, 10:10 PM
my damage looks minimal but ascetic mage makes me able to sacrifice spells to get decent damage bonuses

i bet this caused more seizures to some playgrounders than that weird pokemon episode... :smalltongue:

seriously now, why not monk/cleric or monk/psychic warrior?

HCL
2009-12-25, 10:26 PM
It might be fun but your damage is going to be piddly and you aren't going to be doing real battle control options that a dedicated meleer could do (grapple, bullrush, trip) or the good sorcerer stuff.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-25, 10:49 PM
A lawful chaos gnome?

Weird.

Glimbur
2009-12-25, 11:08 PM
It would be good for you if you didn't take Battle Sorcerer. Spells Known are very important. See if you can qualify for various gish Prestige Classes like abjurant champion and spellsword and such. Those paladin levels should set you up nicely for them.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-26, 12:00 AM
OK, let's see.

Are you aware of the Enlightened Fist (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861966/Enlightened_Fist_Optimization_%5BLong%5D) prestige class? Levels in it would do a lot for this build.

Are you aware of the Arcane Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Strike) feat? It lets you sacrifice spells for more damage and the same attack bonus as you'd get with Ascetic Mage, plus it's a free action instead of a swift action.

Are you aware of the Carmendine Monk (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Carmendine_Monk) feat? It's basically Ascetic Mage for wizards. Wizard would probably give you a stronger build than Sorcerer, though it you want a Charisma-based build then stick with Ascetic Mage.

Generally speaking, characters with levels in spellcasting classes should aim to have as many caster levels as possible; casting higher-level spells is almost always more important than getting a bit more BAB. In any case, I would definitely recommend that you go into Enlightened Fist, since it gives you 8 more caster levels, good BAB, and progresses your Monk abilities. I would drop the Paladin levels to allow earlier entry into Enlightened Fist. The paladin levels don't give you much except CHA to saves. Also, you can't take Divine Shield because paladins don't get Turn Undead until 4th level. I'd only recommend taking the first level in Monk; the second level is useful, but not as useful as another caster level would be. Levels in Abjurant Champion and/or Spellsword, as mentioned above, would probably be a good idea.

Also, a few questions so I can better understand what you're trying to do with this build.
Why have 14 INT, instead of more points in one of your combat-relevant stats?
Why do you want Gnome Battle Cloak proficiency? It's basically a feat for +1 to AC; it's not a very good deal.
Why do you want Combat Reflexes and Improved Combat Reflexes? Having lots of attacks of opportunity is generally only useful if you have a reach weapon, because with more reach more things will provoke attacks from you.
Why have only 12 Str? If you're going to use it much, have a useful number of ranks in it. If not, take either Weapon Finesse (so your attacks are based off Dexterity) or Intuitive Attack (so they're based off Wisdom; I assume you're not going with that) and switch the point sthere.

Soranar
2009-12-26, 12:39 AM
Are you aware of the Enlightened Fist prestige class? Levels in it would do a lot for this build.

-yeah I didn't want to lose too much BAB or fight unarmed so I didn't see the point in taking the class (my sorcerer levels already boost my AC through ascetic mage)

Are you aware of the Arcane Strike feat? It lets you sacrifice spells for more damage and the same attack bonus as you'd get with Ascetic Mage, plus it's a free action instead of a swift action.

-yeah but then I'd waste another feat on something I can already do

Are you aware of the Carmendine Monk feat? It's basically Ascetic Mage for wizards. Wizard would probably give you a stronger build than Sorcerer, though it you want a Charisma-based build then stick with Ascetic Mage.

-the point was to use Cha to get the Pally bonus to saves and AC bonus with divine shield (which wouldn't work with Int, obviously)

Generally speaking, characters with levels in spellcasting classes should aim to have as many caster levels as possible; casting higher-level spells is almost always more important than getting a bit more BAB.

-true, but I'm not aiming at a good spellcasting class but a decent Monk fighting class


Also, you can't take Divine Shield because paladins don't get Turn Undead until 4th level.

-Holy monk gets turn undead at level 1

I'd only recommend taking the first level in Monk; the second level is useful, but not as useful as another caster level would be. Levels in Abjurant Champion and/or Spellsword, as mentioned above, would probably be a good idea.

-sorry I don't know those PrCs and I can't find their progression or requirements online, I mostly take the second monk level for evasion


Why have 14 INT, instead of more points in one of your combat-relevant stats?

-Battle Sorcerer has next to no skillpoints (2+INT) and I need at least tumble (for underfooted fighting), Concentration, spellcraft and the rest as roleplay related skills


Why do you want Gnome Battle Cloak proficiency? It's basically a feat for +1 to AC; it's not a very good deal.

-can be enchanted with a shield bonus AC and it can be used by a monk without losing the AC bonus,

-huge AC, high saves and evasion makes me capable of surviving

Why do you want Combat Reflexes and Improved Combat Reflexes? Having lots of attacks of opportunity is generally only useful if you have a reach weapon, because with more reach more things will provoke attacks from you.

-honestly wasn't sure what to take, Combat reflexes just came from a lack of options as a bonus Monk feat (since I take holy monk)

Why have only 12 Str? If you're going to use it much, have a useful number of ranks in it. If not, take either Weapon Finesse (so your attacks are based off Dexterity) or Intuitive Attack (so they're based off Wisdom; I assume you're not going with that) and switch the point sthere.

-Wisdom being a dump stat, I don't see how I would get help from it, weapon finesse might be worth it though. This is mostly a defensive build made to annoy opposing mages or clerics : run under them, force them to cast defensively and poke them till they die

retaliation08
2009-12-26, 02:58 PM
i would consider a few levels of swordsage(you may only need 1 if you take it at the right time) to pick up the setting sun stance (3rd level) that gives you +2 attack and +4 damage on attacks vs. creatures larger than you. you could also pick up soaring raptor strike(+6d6 vs larger foes after a jump check) from the tiger claw school if you had ample maneuver slots. not only would this improve your damage output, but it would give you some nice throws (setting sun maneuvers) that aid in the way of battlefield control.

remember: initiator level = martial adept(swordsage levels) + 1/2 other class levels.

so if you dipped into swordsage at, lets say, level 9, your initiator level would be 5. 1/2 of 8 + 1. so as long as you took the necessary prereq maneuvers, you could manage to get both of the above mentioned maneuvers in just one level dip at level 9 or higher.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 03:01 PM
Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium) is a chaotic, Charisma-based Monk. They can even fly.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-26, 03:03 PM
I have a feat from I think Dragon Magazine called Cardamine Monk. It basically says what normal monks gain from their wis score, you gain from your cha score. Therefore Astetic Mage on Sorcerer and the similar feat for Paladin would be an unstoppable combo.

There's also one called Kung Fu Genius that does the same, except INT instead of CHA

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 03:14 PM
I have a feat from I think Dragon Magazine called Cardamine Monk. It basically says what normal monks gain from their wis score, you gain from your cha score. Therefore Astetic Mage on Sorcerer and the similar feat for Paladin would be an unstoppable combo.

There's also one called Kung Fu Genius that does the same, except INT instead of CHA

Actually, Carmendine Monk and Kung Fu Genius do the same thing - Monk abilities from INT instead of WIS - neither of them key Monk abilities to CHA.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-26, 03:18 PM
Actually, Carmendine Monk and Kung Fu Genius do the same thing - Monk abilities from INT instead of WIS - neither of them key Monk abilities to CHA.

my bad... I know they mad one like those, but I cannot remember its name

Eloel
2009-12-26, 03:18 PM
I just want to state that the lack of Charisma-based melee classes is annoying.
Swordsage is Wis
Warblade is Int.
When I first started reading ToB, I was hoping Crusader was Cha... But nope..

Signmaker
2009-12-26, 03:19 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732

Checkit.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 03:24 PM
I just want to state that the lack of Charisma-based melee classes is annoying.
Swordsage is Wis
Warblade is Int.
When I first started reading ToB, I was hoping Crusader was Cha... But nope..

Both Swashbuckler and Battle Dancer are Charisma based.

There are others that benefit from high Cha, like Knight and Samurai... actually, forget that last one.


my bad... I know they mad one like those, but I cannot remember its name

The OP already listed the one you want - Ascetic Mage, Complete Adventurer.

Soranar
2009-12-26, 03:24 PM
the feats/maneuvers vs larger creatures sound great, all I need is to find the damn references for swordsages

Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium) is a chaotic, Charisma-based Monk. They can even fly.

I'd have to change the whole build, lose turn undead from monk, switch to Paladin of Freedom , might be doable if I can find the references to it

I have a feat from I think Dragon Magazine called Cardamine Monk. It basically says what normal monks gain from their wis score, you gain from your cha score.

actually that's what ascetic mage does in the first place (+ make sorcerer levels stack with monk for AC and make me able to swap spell slots for damage and attack)

There's also one called Kung Fu Genius that does the same, except INT instead of CHA

unfortunately you can't take both, it's one or the other (as per ascetic mage description and kung-fu master description)

Bayar
2009-12-26, 03:27 PM
1 Monk (holy monk variant, ghurka weapon school) Underfoot Combat
2 Monk bonus feat: combat reflexes (also gain evasion)
3 Paladin exotic shield proficiency, Gnome Battle Cloak
4 Paladin
5 Battle Sorcerer
6 Battle Sorcerer Divine Shield
7 Battle Sorcerer
8 Battle Sorcerer
9 Battle Sorcerer ascetic Mage
10 Battle Sorcerer
11 Battle Sorcerer
12 Battle Sorcerer Confound the Big
Folk
13 Battle Sorcerer
14 Battle Sorcerer
15 Battle Sorcerer practiced spellcaster
16 Battle Sorcerer
17 Battle Sorcerer
18 Battle Sorcerer Improved Combat
Reflexes
19 Battle Sorcerer
20 Battle Sorcerer


I wonder how this is a monk build, when the majority of the levels are in Battle Sorcerer. :confused:

It's like saying that Monk 1 Druid 19 is a monk build, just because you are going karate bear.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 03:28 PM
It's like saying that Monk 1 Druid 19 is a monk build, just because you are going karate bear.

In that it out-monks the monk, it's technically accurate. :smalltongue:

Though I would go with a monk PrC like Sacred Fist, myself.

Eloel
2009-12-26, 03:30 PM
Both Swashbuckler and Battle Dancer are Charisma based.

There are others that benefit from high Cha, like Knight and Samurai... actually, forget that last one.

Swashbuckler is Int based, if anything. There's not a single Cha-based ability.

Battle Dancer, I never heard of before.

Samurai... Don't get me started.

Paladin is kinda cha-based, but again, it's based on every ability except Int.

Knight is too weak, 'gets attacked' is as much a feature as 'has weapon' of Soulknife.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 03:39 PM
Swashbuckler is Int based, if anything. There's not a single Cha-based ability.

My mistake, I think I confused them with Elan's Dashing Swordsman :smalltongue:


Battle Dancer, I never heard of before.

It's got several advantages over the monk, including full BAB.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-26, 03:47 PM
Knight is too weak, 'gets attacked' is as much a feature as 'has weapon' of Soulknife.

Knight is actually quite good, if not incredibly powerful. Its class feature isn't 'gets attacked', it's "You WILL attack me, foo!". Knight's Challenge and the Goad feat (which is lame) are pretty much the only ways in the game non-casters have to force enemy monsters to focus on them instead of the other party members, despite how intelligent they are. A Knight/Crusader with a reach weapon and maybe a friendly neighborhood Batman Wizard handing out Enlarge Persons is a force of nature to be reckoned with, creating up to a 40' diameter circle of Yes, I Get an AoO For That.

This deserves another thread, really, but no Knight deserves the dishonor of being compared even minutely to the Soulknife.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-26, 05:48 PM
Unfortunately, Test of Mettle isn't nearly as good as you'd hope it would be.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-26, 10:08 PM
I have to agree that this is more of a Sorcerer build than anything else, especially since you said you're not wanting to fight unarmed, which is the main thing people are usually concerned with.

Swordsage is in the Tome of Battle. That's where all the maneuvers are too.

Volos
2009-12-27, 01:20 AM
Monk + Drunken Master + Invisible Blade
All you need is decent Dex, Wis, and Int. All three go toward your AC, Insightful Strike makes it worth it to have a high Wis stat. After that... Monk's Belt for + 5 to your Monk level for Unarmed Damage and AC.

Or...

Monk + Vow of Poverty + Drunken Master
You would have to beg the party for drinks, but you would be an unstoppable force of do-good-drink-hard badassery.