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quiet1mi
2009-12-26, 05:00 AM
Reread the Warmage... It sounds pretty fun. If you pick the right feats it makes a great counter to those things that go bump in the night. Is anyone aware of a handbook other than treantmonk's guide to evocation.

Looking back to some games, All the subtitles of a beguiler falls flat when someone fireballs the edge of the party and hits the beguiler... :smallfrown:

Speaking of which how does Earthsense interact with Darkstalker? From the races of Stone and Lords of Madness respectfully...

Hida Reju
2009-12-26, 05:08 AM
~puts on flame retardant suit~

Get ready for the bandwagon to smoke you for suggesting such a thing.

But like most things they can be fun to play even if Either mages or sorcerers do it better.

I prefer them as a matter of fact

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 05:12 AM
Though it's designed for sorcerers, The Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) build gives some very helpful tips on how to deal damage with an arcanist. Sadly, Warmages cannot pull off a large number of the tricks available to this build, but it might give you an idea as to why most people will tell you not to bother with Warmage at all.



Speaking of which how does Earthsense interact with Darkstalker? From the races of Stone and Lords of Madness respectfully...

Darkstalker lists the specific things it guards against - blindsight, blindsense, scent, and tremorsense. As Earth Sense is not listed among those, I'd say Darkstalker does nothing to hinder it.

Thurbane
2009-12-26, 05:21 AM
Some suggestions I'd make:

Apprentice (Spellcaster): get UMD as a class skill, great for any CHA based character
Eternal Wands: handy for spells that aren't on your class list
Raiment of the Four: Teleport and Freedom of Movement? Yes please.
Robe of Mysterious Conjuration: swap any spell for Summon Monster 3/day

Hida Reju
2009-12-26, 05:30 AM
Here is what I could find for a warmage handbook. I do not agree with all of it but it has some decent PRCs to go into.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2816.0

The old one I used to use seems to have been pruned.

quiet1mi
2009-12-26, 11:10 AM
The way I see them...

Do not think of them as an Arcanist! Think of them as a fighter, instead of a having weapons, they use spells. They scale in a similar fashion...


Get ready for the bandwagon to smoke you for suggesting such a thing.

I think I will be fine, and producing different types of damage is kinda handy...

Theoretically the Warmage is terrible compared to other utility mages, but decent compared to other muggles... The energy problem is difficult to overcome but can be overcame (Force damage, Feats).

Practically, the Warmage is handy for the reason we have forgot... they deal real damage to people. I was doing a thought experiment comparing a stealth based beguiler and an assault based/ perceptive warmage.

The stealth based beguiler uses mainly save or lose, along with feats to make them impossible to target. The Warmage, takes feats like earth sense, because it says "Yes/No is there a beguiler, and what direction" "Yes and over there" "Fireball/Lightning bolt/whatever" Dead Beguiler...

In a practical fashion, the main danger of a warmage is that he steals the spotlights from traditional muggles, he deals damage to a single person, or over an area... In a party with just arcanist (Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Duskblade) I can see it being fine as there is enough dispel magic from the beguiler that energy resistance can be suppressed... worst case scenario, he switches to force damage....

In a utility fashion, they are a fighter... They fight! They intimidate! They make people fall down! They are a glass cannon (Usually has a D6 HD and a high Constitution as any other caster)

Fun to play? Yes! Easy to play? Yes! Necessary in a well rounded party? Yes!

Mongoose87
2009-12-26, 11:31 AM
Consider taking a PRC that gives you extra spells known. For example, if it's ruled that text trumps table, the Rainbow Servant is a 10/10 spellcasting PRC that gives you a pile of new spells.

Gnaeus
2009-12-26, 12:24 PM
If you don't need all your feats to enter a prestige class to + your spell list, Arcane Disciple is a great feat for warmages. Proper selection adds a lot of versatility to your list, and while you can only cast the spells with it once per day, you can always get wands of them.

Evard
2009-12-26, 12:45 PM
The way I see them... Do not think of them as an Arcanist! Think of them as a fighter, instead of a having weapons, they use spells. They scale in a similar fashion...


I've always saw the Warmage as a good start on rebuilding the fighter to fit into 3.X better.. sure it may need some tweeking but its a good start

Zaq
2009-12-26, 06:03 PM
Just think of the warmage as an archer, not as an actual caster, and you should be ok.

If your point-buy is generous enough, consider investing in Wisdom. Arcane Disciple is one of the few ways to get new spells known on a Warmage. Also, use the Eclectic Learning ACF from PHB2 and you'll get a few utility spells.

Thurbane
2009-12-26, 06:52 PM
Bloodline feats from the Dragon Compendium is another way to get extra spells on your list (9 spells for 1 feat - not bad).

Also, PrCs like Sand Shaper and Fiend-blooded add spells to your list, and are worth looking into.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-26, 09:58 PM
Warlock is an Archer. Warmage is a joke. Sorc does it's job better, and sorc is considered weak. The best blasting spells and Evocations in the game(not remotely the same thing) aren't on the Warmage's list. All it's good for is throwing multi-colored D6s, but when the Sorc has Wings of Flurry to throw just as much Force damage, your ability to swap colors seems redundant.

HCL
2009-12-26, 10:13 PM
Warlock is an Archer. Warmage is a joke. Sorc does it's job better, and sorc is considered weak. The best blasting spells and Evocations in the game(not remotely the same thing) aren't on the Warmage's list. All it's good for is throwing multi-colored D6s, but when the Sorc has Wings of Flurry to throw just as much Force damage, your ability to swap colors seems redundant.

Sorcs are definitely not weak (unless your idea of average power is wiz/drd/clr/etc).

In the early game Warmages are really nice with a 16+ int dealing a ton of damage each round in light armor. Later in the game you want to focus on casting anything you want from a big ole spell list though sandshaper, prestige bard, a sovereign archetype, and/or rainbow servant.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-26, 10:16 PM
Sorcs are definitely not weak (unless your idea of average power is wiz/drd/clr/etc).

In the early game Warmages are really nice with a 16+ int dealing a ton of damage each round in light armor. Later in the game you want to focus on casting anything you want from a big ole spell list though sandshaper, prestige bard, a sovereign archetype, and/or rainbow servant.16+ Int? So you have the Dexterity of a rock? Or is it the Constitution of an athsmatic? You need Cha to cast, Int for bonus damage, Dex for AC, Con to not die, and you can't even go with 6 Str like a normal caster because you're wearing light armor and can't cast defensive spells.

HCL
2009-12-26, 10:20 PM
Grey elf or deep dwarf. Put a 12-16 in Cha (you only need 12 to cast 1st level spells and get a bonus spell, go with 14 if you are going up as high as level 6), 12-16 in con, rest in dex and int. Then get versatile spellcaster and lob acid orbs.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-26, 11:17 PM
16+ Int? So you have the Dexterity of a rock? Or is it the Constitution of an athsmatic? You need Cha to cast, Int for bonus damage, Dex for AC, Con to not die, and you can't even go with 6 Str like a normal caster because you're wearing light armor and can't cast defensive spells.

Why, exactly, can Warmages not cast defensively?

HCL
2009-12-26, 11:18 PM
Actually the best warmage race is probably great wyrm dragonwrought kobold (the subrace with the wis penalty)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-26, 11:19 PM
Why, exactly, can Warmages not cast defensively?I was talking about things like Mage Armor and Greater Mirror Image.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 11:32 PM
Why, exactly, can Warmages not cast defensively?

They lack defensive magic, not defensive casting.

Zaq
2009-12-26, 11:40 PM
I will say one thing in favor of Warmages: They make great NPCs. They're basically set out of the box (as in, there's not a whole lot you can do to improve them without a lot of work), they're unlikely to just steamroll the PCs, and they're flashy. Good NPC material for a mid-boss or, at higher levels, caster mooks. Way easier than setting up a bunch of sorcerer spells, and way more fair than, say, a beguiler (save-or-sucks are a part of D&D, but sending an enemy whose whole shtick is "who shall I take out of the fight THIS round?" at the party just feels mean more often than not. Mix things up, you know?) or something.

I stand by my statement that a Warmage is basically an archer. They're solidly near the mid-to-bottom of T4, but they're not totally useless. I'd have no problem putting them on par with a Barbarian. A highly optimized Barb is better than a highly optimized Warmage (Rainbow Servant notwithstanding), but at low-to-medium levels of optimization, they're just another flavor of "throw lots of damage at things until they fall down." They're not good, but they're still playable. They're way less frustrating than, say, a Soulborn or a Hexblade.

They're still a weak class. No one is contesting this. But they don't belong in the same class as the Swashbuckler and the Divine Mind.

Hida Reju
2009-12-30, 12:31 AM
Warmages are like the Swiss Army knife of energy damage. They get a tool for every flavor and occasion. Since they get multiple spells that ignore SR and give no save due to touch AC.

Basically you can deal damage decently. The issue is that you have to break the damage caps on the spells with multiple stacking metamagics. That is not easy due to the stupid rule on increased casting time for metamagic for spontaneous casters.

I agree that they are more like an Archer or mobile cannon than a mage or sorcerer and should be played appropriately. If you expect them to do much more than blast something or drop one of their few crowd control spells, IE Evards, Acid fog, or Sleet Storm. Then its going to be a rough day.

MAD is an issue in any low stat game if you are playing with less than 32 point buy then they are hard to start out with even decent stats in anything.

But there are options available to clean up some of the issues they have and as a person that played one from lvls 5 -17 in a long campaign I never had a reason to complain about performance or underpowered.

If you play a max optimized campaign every time with a GM that is pushing the CR system and offering low WBL then expect to have a hard time. If your game is casual and optimizing is within reason expect it to work out just fine.

Pluto
2009-12-30, 12:50 AM
Warlock is an Archer. Warmage is a joke. Sorc does it's job better, and sorc is considered weak.
First, who says the Sorcerer is weak? I'm having trouble thinking of a class beside the prepared casters that can even try to compete with it... Maybe the Erudite.

Second, I don't think I've ever seen a game where the Warmage wouldn't fit in. Between being a decent low-level damage source, being a decent mid-level controller (Pyrotechnics, Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles) and a decent high-level player (Disintegrate, Waves of Exhaustion and Prismatic Sphere make the class more powerful than many others that are deemed playable, such as the Warlock, Binder and Duskblade).

For a 9th level casting class, sure, they blow.
But 9th level casting is more than most classes have.
If you want to play a Warmage, go for it. You'll do fine.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-30, 12:54 AM
Sorcerer is weak because anything you can do, the Wizard can do better. Warmage is weak because anything he can do, the Sorc can do better. Yes, being able to choose damage types on the fly is nice, but since Sorcs get Wings of Flurry for 1d6 force damage per CL, uncapped, Cold vs Fire seems less important. Meanwhile the Sorc is also getting things like Wings of Cover, Arcane Fusion, and FLY.

Hida Reju
2009-12-30, 01:22 AM
Cold vs fire is a very valid point. Arcane fusion and Wings of Furry are valid. Fly is not due to many items being available to simulate it and that Warmages can get it as a 4th lvl spell if they want it with they ACF learning.

Elementals are considered one of the nastier foes of the game so are undead.

Many of them have a vulnerability to exploit for +50% damage. Cold subtype is the worst since you can put searing spell on to do +100% damage against them and ignore any fire resistance they try to put in place.

You are correct Wings of Fury and arcane fusion are better spells for Sorcerers but they are not the only spells out there. Wings still has to deal with Spell resistance, its range is ok, and they get a save against its added effect.

Until you hit the caster lvl cap or play games to increase your own they are no better than one of the orb spells or Energy substituted fireball until you lvl past 10th.

Oh and I got those at the same lvl as the Sorc but I got all of them at once and each of them have a chance of inflicting a secondary status effect similar to Wings of Furry.

Then to cap it off I also got Evard's too. At almost any lvl from lvls 1-12 I get more spells faster than any sorcerer. I can not deny that the sorcerer has more options or power at the end of the race but at any point prior to 8th lvl magic I have a comparable blaster spell to anything they get. The reason I say 8th is it took that long for the Sorc to get enough known spells of his choice to trump the warmage.

Like it is said no one is arguing that Sorcerers and mages are not better. But to say that in every case a warmage will suck out and not be able to do its job of ever increasing amounts of blasting is just silly.

They have options to take to get more spells, they can decrease metamagic just like a Sorcerer, and they can dish out as much damage as a sorcerer prior to 8th lvl magic where Arcane fusion greater just starts to get stupid.

Just never expect to see a warmage do much more than blast things, and while blasting is fun it is not always the best choice as we have undoubtedly seen.

Mongoose87
2009-12-30, 01:24 AM
By that standard, everything but Wizard is weak. No being the best does not make you the worst.

Inhuman Bot
2009-12-30, 01:48 AM
Warmages are like the Swiss Army knife of energy damage. They get a tool for every flavor and occasion.

Yeah, but all of their tools are a knife: Usefull when you need it, but not going to get the food into your mouth at the end of the day.

quiet1mi
2009-12-30, 02:01 AM
I was wondering if there were some out of combat tricks a warmage can pull off...

I know they can open locked doors by shattering the locks, Create a non-lethal distraction with pyrotechnics, and melt items with both fireball and lightningbolt.

Any other clever uses of the spell descriptions regarding evocation spells?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 02:14 AM
You can burn down london with a well aimed fireball.

Hida Reju
2009-12-30, 02:15 AM
I was wondering if there were some out of combat tricks a warmage can pull off...

I know they can open locked doors by shattering the locks, Create a non-lethal distraction with pyrotechnics, and melt items with both fireball and lightningbolt.

Any other clever uses of the spell descriptions regarding evocation spells?

According to the rules there is very little, with some creative arguments to a DM that does not mind maybe. Pyrotechnics is an exception since that is the point of the spell is to distract and anoy.

quiet1mi
2009-12-30, 02:41 AM
Then I am looking for some creative arguments...

Optimystik
2009-12-30, 02:43 AM
They can climb with Force Ladder.
Veil of Shadow and Blacklight help them hide.
Greater Floating Disk lets them fly (20 ft., perfect.)
Submerge Ship - submarine!
They can teleport (sort of) with Instant Refuge.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-30, 09:24 AM
Cold vs fire is a very valid point. Arcane fusion and Wings of Furry are valid. Fly is not due to many items being available to simulate it and that Warmages can get it as a 4th lvl spell if they want it with they ACF learning.How many eclectic learning spells do you get? 4? And you lose those if you PrC? Yeah, I guess I was thinking you'd use that slot for Dispel Magic. Or Wind Wall. Ray of Exhaustion? Haste? Greater Magic Weapon? There are too many good spells out there for a Sorc to take them all, the Warmage is SOL if he even tries.


You are correct Wings of Fury and arcane fusion are better spells for Sorcerers but they are not the only spells out there. Wings still has to deal with Spell resistance, its range is ok, and they get a save against its added effect.

Until you hit the caster lvl cap or play games to increase your own they are no better than one of the orb spells or Energy substituted fireball until you lvl past 10th.

Then to cap it off I also got Evard's too. At almost any lvl from lvls 1-12 I get more spells faster than any sorcerer. I can not deny that the sorcerer has more options or power at the end of the race but at any point prior to 8th lvl magic I have a comparable blaster spell to anything they get. The reason I say 8th is it took that long for the Sorc to get enough known spells of his choice to trump the warmage.

Like it is said no one is arguing that Sorcerers and mages are not better. But to say that in every case a warmage will suck out and not be able to do its job of ever increasing amounts of blasting is just silly. The issue is that all you can do is blast. Meanwhile, the Sorc can blast and do other stuff, too. So if the Sorc is on your level at your job, and laughing when you mention his job, the Sorc is far better. And your job is a terrible one anyways.

Toliudar
2009-12-30, 09:44 AM
The wall spells, cloud spells, web, black tentacles, etc provide lots of battlefield control options for a warmage. As previously noted, arcane disciple feats are perfect for expanding a warmage's options. I've played three different warmages, and have never felt like damage was my only option.

I also agree that warmages are great mooks and lieutenants.

ErrantX
2009-12-30, 10:07 AM
T.G. Oskar made a fantastic rewrite of the Warmage that I'd seriously recommend. Here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346&highlight=warmage). Tell your DM that you want to use this so you can actually participate on Tier 3 level or better.

-X

Paul H
2009-12-31, 11:25 AM
Hi

I too, have played a few Warmages - even a Dwarf Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge. Optimised for Roleplaying (not ROLL playing).

True, they are are masters of destruction, and very little else, but if that's what you need?

Oh - there's an errata for Rainbow Servant - it's the one time where Text doesn't trump Tables...... Still, losing 4 caster levels, but gaining access to the ENTIRE cleric spell list, plus three domains & domain powers, and the ability to grow wings....... Hmmmmm.. :smallbiggrin:
(And you still add Edge/Extra Edge to those damaging cleric spells).

Still, one of my four favourite classes, along with Beguiler, Cleric and Druid.

Cheers
Paul H

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-31, 11:44 AM
Oh - there's an errata for Rainbow Servant - it's the one time where Text doesn't trump Tables...... Still, losing 4 caster levels, but gaining access to the ENTIRE cleric spell list, plus three domains & domain powers, and the ability to grow wings....... Hmmmmm.. :smallbiggrin:
I would like to see this errata. Can you provide for me the ocular proof?