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ondonaflash
2009-12-26, 05:46 AM
first let me preface this by stating that my keyboard is malfunctioning, thus prohibiting the use of the shift function, that is not the focus of the post.

the system is 3.5

i have set most of my campaign in a world just prior to its major cultural renaissance, with guns on the verge of manufacture, and rapiers taking the place of more primitive blades.

i have decided to do a one off set in the same world, 500 years earlier, just coming out of what would be their dark age.

its not enough for me to just change the era, ii want the world to feel different, more primal and primitive, and i was looking for tips on how to pull it off.

question/ how do you think i should adjust the atmosphere of the world to make it more reminiscent of early, early medieval europe

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 05:59 AM
The difference in power is noticeable (poor uneducated people on the bottom, rich educated people on top), people are superstitious, and religion holds as much power as the nobility. In game mechanics, while keeping in mind this is still a fantasy setting, I would apply things like this.

-Everyone begins illiterate.

-Spellbooks and books in general are rare. Triple or quadruple the price of spellbooks. Religious texts are hand written and always in celestial.

-Gold coin is more valuable but less widespread. The common man pays for his goods using horses, livestock, and whatever valuable items he may have. A small town doesn't give the adventurers gold in exchange for their services, they offer free lodging, masterwork weapons, land titles, deeds, letters of note, and gems.

-Wizards are more reclusive than normal. There are no magic shops because A) people don't have the money for that kind of crap and B) wizards are too busy with their own studies to bother.

-Religion and superstition rule. The "scientific" community bends to the will of the church. Those branded as an outcast by the church are enemies to everyone.

-Xenophobic attitudes towards outsiders and a dim, unenlightened view of the surrounding world. Everything that isn't normal is evil, regardless if it truly is or not. Be sure to modify alignment appropriately as a direct reflection of a culture's practices, not a universal belief system.

-Adventurers are rare. Fact is, people are expected to serve their lord and few people are brave to explore outside their boundaries. Adventurers should be heavily taxed by the owner of whatever land they pass through. If a lord's patrols find the party squatting (breaking camp), hunting, or resting on their territory then they should be charged a tax.

-Social status is more important than combat prowess. People feed off gossip and news. If the party tears up an inn in Town A then news of their deeds (exaggerated even) should reach Town Z before the PCs have a chance to pack their bags and move out. The biggest way to hurt PCs is by taking away their ability to move freely. Bards are perhaps the most feared and respected profession because of their ability to entertain, their education, and a wit sharper than any sword. Even the mightiest lord pays some manner of respect to a famed bard.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-26, 06:16 AM
Solve all your problems by setting things on fire.

bosssmiley
2009-12-26, 09:40 AM
Grab an old copy of the TSR era historical sourcebook "A Mighty Fortress". It's the nearest D&D has to a Renaissance/Age of Discovery setting. Useful sections on social classes, the place of chivalry in a post-chivalrous society, sea dogs and gentleman adventurers, daily life in the 16th-17th c.

For your earlier period grab the Celts or Vikings books from the same series. It's eye-opening just how much of even the standard gear in the PHB kit lists was simply unavailable prior to the High Middle Ages.

ondonaflash
2009-12-26, 07:18 PM
jmbrown, that is very helpful, and the exact type of information i am looking for.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-26, 07:23 PM
@No caps: Does capslock work for you? Bit tiresome, but functional.

On Jim Brown's suggestions: I would, honestly, only suggest this if your players are fine with it. Because it sounds exceedingly annoying to players who prefer their freedom, and this may not go over well with your group.

Lioness
2009-12-26, 07:27 PM
Wizards are burnt at the stake if discovered, so any wizard a character plays is likely to be a fugitive and be constantly at risk of discovery. He must trust the other PCs implicitly, or else leave his spells to times when they aren't around.

Could add a rather interesting twist.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 07:31 PM
@No caps: Does capslock work for you? Bit tiresome, but functional.

On Jim Brown's suggestions: I would, honestly, only suggest this if your players are fine with it. Because it sounds exceedingly annoying to players who prefer their freedom, and this may not go over well with your group.

But of course. Personal freedom wasn't something people knew back then. D&D always assumes the PCs are immune to the status quo so if you really want to emulate a "dark age" feel, ondonaflash, you'll have to restrict their actions. Wizards should be restricted to NPC classes only because, frankly, the church would watch them like a hawk or not tolerate their presence at all.

Coidzor
2009-12-26, 07:36 PM
-Social status is more important than combat prowess. People feed off gossip and news. If the party tears up an inn in Town A then news of their deeds (exaggerated even) should reach Town Z before the PCs have a chance to pack their bags and move out. The biggest way to hurt PCs is by taking away their ability to move freely. Bards are perhaps the most feared and respected profession because of their ability to entertain, their education, and a wit sharper than any sword. Even the mightiest lord pays some manner of respect to a famed bard.

So how exactly is this news getting out faster than the PCs can travel themselves if travel is so restricted?

We prefer more of a wizards are part of the scholarly class than an "OMG, wizards are witches" view, since, while you're going for a more dark ages sort of feel, are you actually going for that sort of religious set up? Or at least, more isolated hermits concerned with their studies than figures which are basically borderline heretics and constantly having to dance to avoid being burned at the stake.

Basically, what sort of religious set up do you have? Is it one land one faith, where each god has a little demesne? Is it just a hodgepodge with the various gods and religious orders and monasteries competing with one another for power over the populace by currying the various powers?

Also, what caused the dark age on this particular world?

500 years or so before the renaissance period would roughly coincide with the 1000s, give or take, which is, conveniently, about the time when the Normans invaded England. So there's still a bit of nation-building going on, but most of the tribalism will have settled down except on the edges and feudalism will be well implemented, and almost all migrations save those caused by new catastrophes/wars will over with.

...So basically equivalent to the High Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Middle_Ages) since it's after the dark ages... 1000-1300

Gamerlord
2009-12-26, 07:42 PM
Let me just say that I go back in time for one-shots a LOT.

The main problem is making sure your characters don't do something contradictory to that world's history.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 08:00 PM
So how exactly is this news getting out faster than the PCs can travel themselves if travel is so restricted?

We prefer more of a wizards are part of the scholarly class than an "OMG, wizards are witches" view, since, while you're going for a more dark ages sort of feel, are you actually going for that sort of religious set up? Or at least, more isolated hermits concerned with their studies than figures which are basically borderline heretics and constantly having to dance to avoid being burned at the stake.

Basically, what sort of religious set up do you have? Is it one land one faith, where each god has a little demesne? Is it just a hodgepodge with the various gods and religious orders and monasteries competing with one another for power over the populace by currying the various powers?

Also, what caused the dark age on this particular world?

Travel isn't restricted in a sense that "No, you can't go here" it's that people travel from town to town and word spreads quickly. Adventurers should have it tough because a ruling lord has every right to tax you for even passing through his land and you need notes, permissions, and signed documents to cart around equipment. A lord could impose restriction on magic items limiting them to 1 per person, they could confiscate every horse, or they could take every gem valued above 1,000gp.

In the normal D&D game if you did these kinds of things the PCs would go ape shiz, kill the guards, and destroy any mundane NPC that comes after them. In a Dark Age world the PCs should be treated with near hostility for walking around with an armory strapped to their back and carting around strange items of myth.

Adventurers: Would you like to buy my old +1 sword? I have a +2 sword, now.

Baron: Oh, really? I hereby levy a tax of 5sp for every gold piece earned.

The epic 6 rules are recommended for a true old world feel. Arcane casters should be feared/respected, bards should dominate the courts and taverns, fighters should cut a swath through most monsters, and rogues should be the eyes and ears of the party. If you introduce high fantasy into a dark, unenlightened world the PCs can destroy the economy simply by making their own equipment and eliminate any non-PC human that steps in their path.

JonestheSpy
2009-12-26, 08:20 PM
You know, folks seem to be piling on the darky dark dark here, rather excessively so in my opinion. Ondonaflash's first post seems to be descrbing something like the late Middle Ages, not the middle of the 7th century. And if folks let go of some of the stereotypes, history reveals a world not as bad as everyone leaps to suggest.

First a couple of things to decide: Is magic actually suppressed in a world where it actually works (and how does "superstition" manifest in a world full of the actual supernatural, anyway)? And does religion actually have the same power in a polytheistic universe with competing deities, as opposed to the monolthic single church of Medieval Europe?

Some changes you can definitely count on:

A lower technology level. Probably no full plate, heavy crossbows, alchemical gadgets, etc.

Different borders.

Less central government. There would still be kings, but their vassals have far more independence and power in most situations. Likewise, much more possiblity for random violence from raiders of all sorts, as opposed to full-nation wars.

Lower population. Cities in your normal campaign might be small towns, or not even there. Conversely, what are ruins in your regular campaign might be thriving areas, falling to plague or some other disaster in between.

The center of power and commerce should be somewhere completely different than your normal campaign. In the late Middle Ages Chinese Han civilization and the Islamic Caliphate were the most advanced civilizations on the planet, with western Europe a relative backwater. Perhaps whatever culture is dominat in your regular campaign is just beghinning its rise to power.

A much smaller merchant/artisan class, and correspondingly almost no middle class. Therefore distribution of stuff much rarer, even if it does fall within the technological parameters available.

Coidzor
2009-12-26, 08:22 PM
^: Yes. +1 to this.

Crossbows may not be invented at all. Full plate, probably not, or it might be a lost art where the only sets of full plate around are basically artifacts and relics from before the dark age began.

An example to consider is how the Duke of Burgundy was at times more powerful than the King of France despite being a vassal, and at one point, brother to the King. Powerful dukes and barons can control vast swathes of real estate and be rivals with the king, and even be behind coups. Conversely, there'll also be baronets and counts who control little more than a town, its farms, and some woods from their manor/castle on top of the local hill.


Travel isn't restricted in a sense that "No, you can't go here" it's that people travel from town to town and word spreads quickly. Adventurers should have it tough because a ruling lord has every right to tax you for even passing through his land and you need notes, permissions, and signed documents to cart around equipment. A lord could impose restriction on magic items limiting them to 1 per person, they could confiscate every horse, or they could take every gem valued above 1,000gp.
Word cannot spread more quickly than a man on horseback or courier pigeons. If it's in the dark ages, information travels even more slowly due to the fact that travel is quite simply even more dangerous than it usually is in a dnd world. The roads are in disrepair where they were from the old world and not very well built where there've been new roads laid/trails blazed.

Besides, this is after the dark ages proper, more towards the high medieval. Lords that abused merchants and adventurers would just as easily, if not more so gain a reputation for their reeves and sheriffs cutting off trade with harsh taxes than the PCs would for being involved in a fracas with someone's daughter that led to the inn getting burned down.
And enforcement! How is a noble going to stop all travelers in order to get all of these magic items, if their lands are of any size at all, such patrols would be easily eluded for what manpower could be spared.


In the normal D&D game if you did these kinds of things the PCs would go ape shiz, kill the guards, and destroy any mundane NPC that comes after them. In a Dark Age world the PCs should be treated with near hostility for walking around with an armory strapped to their back and carting around strange items of myth.

Then the PCs should know not to advertise carting around strange items of myth unless they've gotten the reputation of being heroes like, I don't know, Lancelot, Beowulf, Roland, that sort of thing.

On the one hand, being armed could be illegal without being some lord's man at arms, but if that's the case, then they have bigger issues to worry about by dint of being outlaws than that people mistrust them due to being armed. On the other, anyone who travels from place to place who isn't readily identifiable as a bard is going to be mistrusted and those who do travel would have to be armed with the condition that the roads and seaways are in.

On the other, the PCs should have the ability to kill anyone who goes after them, otherwise the DM is not doing a very good job balancing his encounters with the campaign of them as more-or-less well-meaning dwellers of the greenwood or viking scourges or members of the invading hordes.


Adventurers: Would you like to buy my old +1 sword? I have a +2 sword, now.

Baron: Oh, really? I hereby levy a tax of 5sp for every gold piece earned.

That's just stupid. That's got to be the worst sales pitch ever. And if what you're saying about the nobility is true, the adventurers wouldn't let on about having it unless they were offering it to the noble as a gift or had the necessary title/patron/standing to avoid such things. In which case it'd probably be still offered as a 'gift,' in a sort of favor-trade system.


The epic 6 rules are recommended for a true old world feel. Arcane casters should be feared/respected, bards should dominate the courts and taverns, fighters should cut a swath through most monsters, and rogues should be the eyes and ears of the party.

...Thus encouraging them to take control of the local ravening hordes by dint of being PCs and thus stronger than the average viking in order to carve out their own fief?

Knaight
2009-12-26, 08:34 PM
Mercantilism is huge, if you look at the economic history you notice a lot of mill companies, using stock, with very rich merchants. Furthermore there was a medieval banks that made the Medici look like a joke in comparison. The late middle ages were essentially the first industrial revolution, using water power.

Note that the negative aspects were still there in many ways, and education wasn't widespread yet. The average peasants life was better than it was earlier, but there were improvements. Furthermore the renaissance focus on the arts still wasn't there.

Obviously magic changes things a bit, and if you want to push the time line back to a darker era, then go ahead and use the above advice. In any case, powerful nobility is critical, as are excessive taxes and appropriation of magic items.

Swordguy
2009-12-26, 08:58 PM
A lord could impose restriction on magic items limiting them to 1 per person, they could confiscate every horse, or they could take every gem valued above 1,000gp.

Adventurers: Would you like to buy my old +1 sword? I have a +2 sword, now.

Baron: Oh, really? I hereby levy a tax of 5sp for every gold piece earned.

I wanted to touch on this for a moment. Yes, it is completely within the right of a lord to do this most of the time in a "default" feudal system. However, what jmbrown fails to mention is that the intelligent lord (or lord with advisors who are at all intelligent) will know the difference between having the right to do this and actually exercising that right.

For the same reasons that, historically, lords did not often screw over mercenaries like this (confiscating all of their goods), lords in D&D are unlikely to do this to PCs. These reasons are mainly twofold: the PCs are most likely powerful enough to cause some fairly severe disturbances if the lord tries this (similar to the reason people paid mercenaries historically - the mercs would rampage and take the money owed out of the lord's land/hide), and the lord may want to actually employ said PCs in the future. If he levies punitive taxes on the PCs simply "because he can", he's unlikely to receive their services in the future, and said PCs may well go straight to an enemy of the lord and offer their services to his rival gratis.

Finally, there's some very important cultural reasons why lords don't do this on a regular basis. As a lord, you can take whatever you like from your serfs - they're your property. However, other lords entering your lands are guests; the laws of hospitality are exceedingly important on through the Renaissance. You just DON'T screw with somebody when they're a guest. Adventurers, being outside the accepted social order (ie, neither lords nor peasants) should at least generate some qualms in a greedy lord - if he violates said cultural laws, will he be branded for breaching those unwritten social mores? Moreover, if he mistreats an adventuring guest, what will his own liege lord think when it's time to visit the lord? Once you've breached these laws, you can't ever be trusted again, and when your liege lord has reason not to trust you, you're unlikely to have a productive life or career...

I suppose my main point is that I think the worry here is too much. Yes, there's a good reason for this to happen to PCs, but there's also very, VERY good reasons why this should not even be close to a common occurrence. Once in a campaign is probably appropriate.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 09:03 PM
That's just stupid. That's got to be the worst sales pitch ever. And if what you're saying about the nobility is true, the adventurers wouldn't let on about having it unless they were offering it to the noble as a gift or had the necessary title/patron/standing to avoid such things. In which case it'd probably be still offered as a 'gift,' in a sort of favor-trade system.

My point is that "pawn shops" don't exist. You can't walk up to a street vendor and offer a magical sword in exchange for a massive pile of gold. Anyone seeing you exchange huge honking piles of gold like you would do in a standard D&D game would conspire against you or tax you.

Magic items should be traded, not exchanged for liquid cash. A +1 sword should buy you 200 acres and a plow. Boots of speed will buy a man a farm. You kill the bandits raiding a nearby village and among their possessions is the deed to an abandoned keep where a couple of redcaps are squatting.

The concept of MAGIC MART has always angered me after 2nd Edition but in a world where technology is limited and researching the unknown results in scary findings, people shouldn't have glowing arms and armor hanging on vines or walk around with cartloads of coins. That's stupid.


...Thus encouraging them to take control of the local ravening hordes by dint of being PCs and thus stronger than the average viking in order to carve out their own fief?

Yes but still being weak that a band of level 1 warriors (20 or so) can pose a lethal challenge. Epic 6 is designed to let the PCs kill a giant or two but they won't be arm wrestling demons or single handily storming a castle to kick Prince John out. Challenges CR their level + 3 or more require careful planning, large numbers, and resources not Dimension Door + Cloudkill.

EDIT: By "Dark Ages" I assume people are talking about fall-of-the-Roman-empire, not early-middle-ages.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:50 AM
Adventurers: Would you like to buy my old +1 sword? I have a +2 sword, now.

Baron: Oh, really? I hereby levy a tax of 5sp for every gold piece earned.


Fireball has a range of 400 feet +40 feet/level, and the Baron has a low reflex save.

Just saying.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 03:28 AM
Fireball has a range of 400 feet +40 feet/level, and the Baron has a low reflex save.

Just saying.

And a mob of angry pig farmers with pitchforks has a grapple check of +34 and automatically deals 5d6 points of damage to anyone it ends its turn in so what's your point?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 03:29 AM
And a mob of angry pig farmers with pitchforks has a grapple check of +34 and automatically deals 5d6 points of damage to anyone it ends its turn in so what's your point?

Farmers typically don't have enough hp to stand up to a fireball either. So what's your point?

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 03:34 AM
Farmers typically don't have enough hp to stand up to a fireball either. So what's your point?

A mob of farmer's has, on average, 135hp. They're a swarm, not individual units.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 03:38 AM
It appears that Baron von Jerkass has a loyal mob of serfs willing to slay his assassin on command.

If only there was some way to fly away from them. Or turn invisible. Or disguise one's self. Or turn invisible and fly away from them at the same time whilst disguising one's self.

Coidzor
2009-12-27, 03:39 AM
And a mob of angry pig farmers with pitchforks has a grapple check of +34 and automatically deals 5d6 points of damage to anyone it ends its turn in so what's your point?

It's going to take a lot of incentive to get pig farmers angry enough to swarm. One doubts that merely toasting their lord, especially if he was the type to be enough of a jerk that the PCs found it most convenient to eliminate him.

Not to mention, it'd be rather out of character for the inhabitants of such a world except in a limited set of circumstances. These are serfs we're talking about here.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 03:47 AM
Baron von Jackass also provided protection to his serfs from the outside world. He may have levied heavy taxes but now any opportunistic noble or hungry monster can storm in and slaughter anyone.

So the PCs slay the good sir Baron in his home court. The 30-60 house guards immediately draw arms and attack. The town bells are rung mustering the militia as a runner from the castle alerts the villagers that evil travelers, blasphemers against god, have killed their protector using demon magic.

Even the smallest hamlet can provide at least 2 mobs and mobs don't distinguish between noncombatants. The PCs now have to contend with a keep full of armed guards + 1 militiaman per 20 people in the population + 1 mob per 48 humans.

If they manage to escape, they're now wanted criminals and the king is pissed off because one of his knights was killed by an idiot. I'm certain the king has equal level clerics or higher plus paladins plus assassins who can track the PCs, who know have to disguise themselves where ever they go and can never do anything substantial in town without fear of attack, better than the PCs can escape.

So you see, stomping out PC stupidity is pretty easy when you step back and look at everything as a whole.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 03:54 AM
It's going to take a lot of incentive to get pig farmers angry enough to swarm. One doubts that merely toasting their lord, especially if he was the type to be enough of a jerk that the PCs found it most convenient to eliminate him.

Not to mention, it'd be rather out of character for the inhabitants of such a world except in a limited set of circumstances. These are serfs we're talking about here.

Look up the Rosewood Massacre. An entire village was raised because a white woman said a black man raped her when it was actually her boyfriend.

There were women, children, elderly and simple farmers in that mob. Mobs are incited by emotion and anger is one of the easiest emotions to exploit. You look at any riot or revolution in history and you'll see that a mob of pissed off people can deal horrendous damage in a short amount of time.

There's nothing out of character about it.

GallóglachMaxim
2009-12-27, 03:54 AM
Crossbows may not be invented at all.

The crossbow was invented in the 400s BC, they just got popular later with a need for peasant armies.

Relevance: the number of NPCs that can fight will be pretty low, because of the expense. Most of those that there are will be property owners of some sort who support themselves. However, they will usually keep large numbers of poorly-armed commoners on hand to throw at any threats.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 03:56 AM
Baron von Jackass also provided protection to his serfs from the outside world. He may have levied heavy taxes but now any opportunistic noble or hungry monster can storm in and slaughter anyone.
Ah, so you have heard of my plans.


So the PCs slay the good sir Baron in his home court. The 30-60 house guards immediately draw arms and attack. The town bells are rung mustering the militia as a runner from the castle alerts the villagers that evil travelers, blasphemers against god, have killed their protector using demon magic.

Even the smallest hamlet can provide at least 2 mobs and mobs don't distinguish between noncombatants. The PCs now have to contend with a keep full of armed guards + 1 militiaman per 20 people in the population + 1 mob per 48 humans.

Unless the 30-60 house guards can attack people over 400 feet away, they might as well cry for mommy.

And unless your hamlet's mobs have access to flight, they can go do the same as well.



If they manage to escape, they're now wanted criminals and the king is pissed off because one of his knights was killed by an idiot.
I'm certain the king has equal level clerics or higher plus paladins plus assassins who can track the PCs, who know have to disguise themselves where ever they go and can never do anything substantial in town without fear of attack, better than the PCs can escape.
Fortunately, if you commit the deed with enough a Disguise Self spell and Invisibility, no one will know that it was you in the first place. They'll just see this person who pops in, then out of, visibility. The king's trackers will be off tracking someone who does not exist.

lolololol!!1!



So you see, stomping out PC stupidity is pretty easy when you step back and look at everything as a whole.
So you see, using magic against people without magic is both fun and profitable when you step back and look at everything as a whole.

Coidzor
2009-12-27, 04:20 AM
Look up the Rosewood Massacre. An entire village was raised because a white woman said a black man raped her when it was actually her boyfriend.

There were women, children, elderly and simple farmers in that mob. Mobs are incited by emotion and anger is one of the easiest emotions to exploit. You look at any riot or revolution in history and you'll see that a mob of pissed off people can deal horrendous damage in a short amount of time.

There's nothing out of character about it.

The motivations here are different enough as to be incomparable.

Besides, lynch mobs against minorities that are being purposefully kept down are different from calling up the militia because demon/magician/demon magician forces just slaughtered the local ruler and his better trained and equipped gendarmes.

In the one, there's only the threat of what might happen eventually if the minority isn't violently suppressed, in the other, the threat of getting killed and having one's family left unprovided for is very real.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 04:26 AM
Unless the 30-60 house guards can attack people over 400 feet away, they might as well cry for mommy.

And unless your hamlet's mobs have access to flight, they can go do the same as well.

Assuming you have clear sight to him from 400 feet away. Unless going out for war he'll travel in a carriage for the very reason of assassination attempts and your fireball doesn't penetrate carriages.

You're also assuming you do anywhere close to max damage. A baron isn't going to be a level 1 peon. In an Epic 6 campaign he may very well be a noble 1/warrior 5 or even have PC levels. If the world is dark and hostile then the rulers will be the strongest of the strong.


Fortunately, if you commit the deed with enough a Disguise Self spell and Invisibility, no one will know that it was you in the first place. They'll just see this person who pops in, then out of, visibility. The king's trackers will be off tracking someone who does not exist.

lolololol!!1!

Disguise self and invisibility doesn't mask your scent. You had bat guano on your fingers giving the dogs a bonus to their tracking.

People had hunting dogs for this very reason lolololol!!1!


So you see, using magic against people without magic is both fun and profitable when you step back and look at everything as a whole.

Nobody said magic didn't exist. A cleric has divination spells too. Besides, this is why I recommended an E6 campaign. Even if you followed standard D&D assumptions there'll be a party of clerics/wizards your level or higher on your trail regardless.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 04:32 AM
The motivations here are different enough as to be incomparable.

Besides, lynch mobs against minorities that are being purposefully kept down are different from calling up the militia because demon/magician/demon magician forces just slaughtered the local ruler and his better trained and equipped gendarmes.

In the one, there's only the threat of what might happen eventually if the minority isn't violently suppressed, in the other, the threat of getting killed and having one's family left unprovided for is very real.

People banded together to brutally attack those they considered were "witches" even though they seriously believed them to contain magic powers. If you threaten someone's livelihood and piss them off enough they will band together even against giant odds. The French Revolution was largely abetted by civilians, not trained soldiers. One of Napoleon's first conquests was leading a riot against the French army.

The threat of getting killed if the threat isn't squashed is greater than the threat that it'll pass. "A lone guy wielding horrible magic" is reason enough to conduct a man hunt than hide in your house and let it pass. If it were an army of spell slinging wizards, yes they wouldn't have anything to do with it, but a lone sorcerer is reason enough to mob.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 04:49 AM
Assuming you have clear sight to him from 400 feet away. Unless going out for war he'll travel in a carriage for the very reason of assassination attempts and your fireball doesn't penetrate carriages.
It goes through open windows, which I'm assuming his manor and his carriage will have.

Unless he enjoys stuffy air, I guess, which is possible.



You're also assuming you do anywhere close to max damage. A baron isn't going to be a level 1 peon. In an Epic 6 campaign he may very well be a noble 1/warrior 5 or even have PC levels. If the world is dark and hostile then the rulers will be the strongest of the strong.
Sudden Maximize fireball does 36 damage. It also sets the manor on fire. Pretty fun.

And you can cast another fireball (for 21 damage on average) if you win initiative after the surprise round. It's a decent chance at killing him.

If he survives, you've burnt down his house, or caused his property considerable fire damage at the least. Which does send a strong "Don't piss off people who can fireball you" message."



Disguise self and invisibility doesn't mask your scent. You had bat guano on your fingers giving the dogs a bonus to their tracking.

People had hunting dogs for this very reason lolololol!!1!
Eschew Materials! Lololololol!!!1!

And I must have missed the part where flying tracking dogs existed.



Nobody said magic didn't exist. A cleric has divination spells too. Besides, this is why I recommended an E6 campaign. Even if you followed standard D&D assumptions there'll be a party of clerics/wizards your level or higher on your trail regardless.
Not in an E6 campaign, which I thought was what you were suggesting?

Coidzor
2009-12-27, 04:58 AM
People banded together to brutally attack those they considered were "witches" even though they seriously believed them to contain magic powers. If you threaten someone's livelihood and piss them off enough they will band together even against giant odds. The French Revolution was largely abetted by civilians, not trained soldiers. One of Napoleon's first conquests was leading a riot against the French army.

The threat of getting killed if the threat isn't squashed is greater than the threat that it'll pass. "A lone guy wielding horrible magic" is reason enough to conduct a man hunt than hide in your house and let it pass. If it were an army of spell slinging wizards, yes they wouldn't have anything to do with it, but a lone sorcerer is reason enough to mob.

Yes, because they believed that the witches had been causing them trouble and were going to continue to do so until they were stopped.

Here, the example is the local nob being offed. Something that the common people are more or less insulated against unless it involves an invading force. New boss same as the old boss for them, really, especially since it's unlikely that they'll be violently invaded by the guy's successor. (he's got no reason to invade, and consolidating it with a token amount of troops plus a few more to show he's hunting down the murderers in good faith is more as likely to get him welcomed whole-heartedly than resisted very strongly)

A party of adventurers is more along the lines of something that the average joe commoner doesn't want noticing him and his, especially since we don't know that this world would even be e6.

Now, the local reeve calling up a posse, I can see, but not everyone in the area surging up like a boiling sea of humanity as an immediate, overwhelming community response.

That's just saying rocks fall, everyone dies in a petulant, drawn-out fashion.

Who is getting them riled up? Who is getting so many of them prepared to face things greater than ordinary men on such short notice? Who is convincing them that they're better off forming a lynch mob right now than to leave it to the official response? Who decides to have runners at the ready for such occasions in order to raise a rabble to avenge him rather than relying upon the one and a half to three score gendarmes handle an attempt on the life of the lord, successful or ongoing?

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 05:16 AM
It goes through open windows, which I'm assuming his manor and his carriage will have.

Unless he enjoys stuffy air, I guess, which is possible.

A spread effect can turn corners but each turn count against it's maximum area. The person inside the carriage has total cover against you. A carriage is 10x10 so at best you'll hit a single person in it assuming you know exactly where they're sitting.


Sudden Maximize fireball does 36 damage. It also sets the manor on fire. Pretty fun.

And you can cast another fireball (for 21 damage on average) if you win initiative after the surprise round. It's a decent chance at killing him.

If he survives, you've burnt down his house, or caused his property considerable fire damage at the least. Which does send a strong "Don't piss off people who can fireball you" message."

You just casted two fireballs, fly, and invisibility. Where are you getting all these spells as a 6th level character?

And fireball only burns combustibles. Wood isn't a combustible (it's flammable but not a combustible). At best you'll create a black mark on a 12 inch thick stone wall.


Eschew Materials! Lololololol!!!1!

And I must have missed the part where flying tracking dogs existed.

And that's another feat you have to burn. Hunting dogs can pick up scent in the air as well so hopefully your wizard has an anemometer sitting on a flat plane nearby so his distinct scent doesn't carry down wind and alert the advance team of dogs who will bark at anything that's not their handler.


Not in an E6 campaign, which I thought was what you were suggesting?

By "standard D&D assumptions" I meant if you ditched E6. Even in an E6 campaign there'll be clerics and bards who are pissed the man they used to deal business with is dead. The old level 10 NPC hedge mage may even be called upon because the baron was providing him with fresh virgin sacrifices.

Killing a noble would also create a power vacuum. People will fight over the land and try to stake their claim in it. The king or whomever they owed fealty to would be weakened because his vassal is dead. Outside forces would march in on the kingdom in its weakened state. Monsters who were kept at bay by the now dead noble are raiding the surrounding towns for supplies and the price of goods hikes up.

Meanwhile the idiot PC wizard has no place to peacefully rest, prepare his spells, or purchase components to write new spells in his spellbook. He has essentially destroyed an entire nation's economy through a single action and life is undoubtedly harder on him as a result.



Who is getting them riled up? Who is getting so many of them prepared to face things greater than ordinary men on such short notice? Who is convincing them that they're better off forming a lynch mob right now than to leave it to the official response? Who decides to have runners at the ready for such occasions in order to raise a rabble to avenge him rather than relying upon the one and a half to three score gendarmes handle an attempt on the life of the lord, successful or ongoing?

A bard. Like I said earlier, diplomacy, bluff, and intimidation are your friends in a world where people can be swayed through words alone.

A lone sorcerer with foul black magic killed the ruling lord. What's to say he won't do it again? Who's to say he won't put a puppet lord in his place? Steal your children in the night? Plague your crops? This villain may have killed a horrible man but these events are only a precursor for more to come.

Grab your pitchforks, slings, and torches. We'll have blood by this night's end or the blood will be our own.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 07:27 AM
A spread effect can turn corners but each turn count against it's maximum area. The person inside the carriage has total cover against you. A carriage is 10x10 so at best you'll hit a single person in it assuming you know exactly where they're sitting.
The Fireball bead, the one that explodes... you can launch it through openings.


You just casted two fireballs, fly, and invisibility. Where are you getting all these spells as a 6th level character?

Two fireballs: two third level slots.
Flight: Alter self (second level) or Fly (third level)
Invisibility x2: two second level slots
Disguise Self: one first level slot.

Question: Does a wizard have this?

Answer: Yes!


And fireball only burns combustibles. Wood isn't a combustible (it's flammable but not a combustible). At best you'll create a black mark on a 12 inch thick stone wall.
Manors and carriages have curtains and seating which is flammable. Beds and bedcovers catch fire too, iirc. And clothing.



And that's another feat you have to burn
Would make sense, in a world where being an arcane caster, and having spell components, may lead to severe complications.


Hunting dogs can pick up scent in the air as well so hopefully your wizard has an anemometer sitting on a flat plane nearby so his distinct scent doesn't carry down wind and alert the advance team of dogs who will bark at anything that's not their handler.

So bloodhounds can track someone flying 100 feet up by scent, can they? Fascinating.

Moreso when you consider the text of the Scent ability.


This extraordinary special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent.
Whenever the creature comes within 5 feet of the source, the creature pinpoints the source’s location.
A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.
False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.

So unless the wizard flies within 60 feet of the ground, your bloodhounds can't do bupkus.



By "standard D&D assumptions" I meant if you ditched E6. Even in an E6 campaign there'll be clerics and bards who are pissed the man they used to deal business with is dead.
And what are they going to do about it? They don't get the divination needed to find anyone until way after 6th level, so E6 cleric retribution is out.

Higher level divination would be able to find him, but I believe you argued a while back about how limited Divinations were in actual practice, which would make your stance here on the powers of divination to find the assassin... interesting. If I misremember, then I apologies in advance.

Bard's knowledge probably won't help much. Depends on the DM though. Some DMs will be very, very liberal with it to prove a point, often giving the bard the ability to know things he could not have in any ways known.


The old level 10 NPC hedge mage may even be called upon because the baron was providing him with fresh virgin sacrifices.
So the serfs are ok with the virgin sacrifices, I take it? Or do they just not notice their virgins disappearing?


Killing a noble would also create a power vacuum. People will fight over the land and try to stake their claim in it. The king or whomever they owed fealty to would be weakened because his vassal is dead. Outside forces would march in on the kingdom in its weakened state. Monsters who were kept at bay by the now dead noble are raiding the surrounding towns for supplies and the price of goods hikes up.
Serves them right, too.


Meanwhile the idiot PC wizard has no place to peacefully rest, prepare his spells, or purchase components to write new spells in his spellbook.
Rope Trick.

I'd have an answer for the components issue, but we don't really know what the components are. It depends on the setting, I suppose. I've always assumed gold and silver is ground up into the ink when scribing new spells.


He has essentially destroyed an entire nation's economy through a single action and life is undoubtedly harder on him as a result.
How does this incredibly fragile nation manage to survive if it takes one death
to completely destroy it? Assassinations are not rare occurrence given the times, so this sort of thing must come up with some frequency.

So please enlighten me, Mr. Brown, if this one wizard can bring down the entire country, how come it has not collapsed before, when a normal assassination of a lord takes place? Or when a lord dies suddenly of illness or during a hunting accident?

I hope you do not mind explaining why one sudden death destabilizes the country so. The phrase "For want of a horseshoe, a kingdom is lost" never really made sense to me.

Now, if you ask me what happens when the lord is assassinated, I do not consider the disaster scenario you lay out to be the likely outcome. I think that the most likely thing to happen would be for his son or next of kin to inherit the title and for life to continue on.

ondonaflash
2009-12-27, 08:05 AM
(new keyboard... feels weird)

So, in answer to some of the background questions: What caused the dark age: A natural disaster, culminating a massive and wide-scale battle royale across the entire continent.

Wizards: Are running the show, about thirty years after the collapse of society the wizards placed a brilliant tactician at the helm of an army, and had him take over. He disappeared and now the wizards are in charge.

They aren't very nice people, they are selfish rulers, and ineffectual leaders. Most of them are cruel and unskilled at ruling, so the majority of society is ruled by those who can claim the wizards' favor, or those strong enough that none of the ordinary people can stop them, but not so powerful that the wizards take notice. Its very cut-throat, and crime is at a high.

PC Wizards: The Wizard Kings have a bit of a policy when it comes to lesser wizards: If you're not with me, you're against me (and thus subject to the mercy of my armies), and if you're powerful enough to be a threat to me, you're against me (see previous note). The Wizard Kings unilaterally hate one another, and are constantly at war.

Trade and industry aren't huge, there isn't really a merchant caste, and no standardized currency or banking system. its still firmly stuck in the Feudal system, and the people in charge aren't really inclined to let that change. Barter is the heart of the small town economies, and large towns aren't really much more than military fortifications, thriving on battle and prostitution.

There's very much a "Might Makes Right" mentality, and news is slow to travel, since it is rare for villagers to leave the safety of their townships, and their local garrisons, and forge out into the wilds. Also, I think I mentioned that the lords hate each other.

The church is underground, the Wizard Kings have banned the worship of any gods but the gods of magic, which won't work out well for them in the long run.

THIS VIDEO IS TOPICAL! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=917Q8dbpRLE)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 09:05 AM
These kings sound like they need a good whack upside the head with an eggbeater.

An eggbeater that is also on fire.

pasko77
2009-12-27, 09:29 AM
Adventurers: Would you like to buy my old +1 sword? I have a +2 sword, now.
Baron: Oh, really? I hereby levy a tax of 5sp for every gold piece earned.


This one made me laugh... I'm sorry, but it did not work this way.
As others point out, you DO NOT screw with the guys with the guns.
Mercenaries where respected, at least the way a mafia boss is respected. It is pointless to say "in my castle I have 60+ soldiers that can swarm your gang" because in the next years you won't be reliable for others mercenaries, and will sooner or later (methinks sooner) be killed by your better supported rivals. Always if YOU survive the fireball you will receive before that gang is swarmed.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 11:04 AM
The Fireball bead, the one that explodes... you can launch it through openings.

So we've gone from casting fireball at a carriage to throwing a bead through a window? Are you're doing this while invisible, while flying, and while hunting dogs are surrounding the carriage. Are we also ruling out the possibility that many nobility fearful of their lives would use decoys in stage coaches and instead travel amongst their soldiers?


Manors and carriages have curtains and seating which is flammable. Beds and bedcovers catch fire too, iirc. And clothing.

Combustible is not the same as flammable. Paper is combustible. A bed isn't.


So the serfs are ok with the virgin sacrifices, I take it? Or do they just not notice their virgins disappearing?

People disappear all the time. "Stay out of the woods or the monster's will get you." Assassination calls attention. The mysterious witch of the woods is feared.


Rope Trick.
So he can rest 6 hours peacefully with no one bothering him. He still has 2 hours left plus 15-60 minutes to prepare + 24 hours to wait for his daily allotment to refresh.

Rope trick below 9th level is useless for anything but a short reprieve.



How does this incredibly fragile nation manage to survive if it takes one death
to completely destroy it? Assassinations are not rare occurrence given the times, so this sort of thing must come up with some frequency.

So please enlighten me, Mr. Brown, if this one wizard can bring down the entire country, how come it has not collapsed before, when a normal assassination of a lord takes place? Or when a lord dies suddenly of illness or during a hunting accident?

I hope you do not mind explaining why one sudden death destabilizes the country so. The phrase "For want of a horseshoe, a kingdom is lost" never really made sense to me.

Now, if you ask me what happens when the lord is assassinated, I do not consider the disaster scenario you lay out to be the likely outcome. I think that the most likely thing to happen would be for his son or next of kin to inherit the title and for life to continue on.

Whole nations have collapsed through a single, simple act because said act is the boiling point. France and Germany were at each others throats for decades (Franco-Prussian war being a big weight upon their strained relationships) with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand giving the leaders in Vienna excuse enough to declare war. He wasn't the first Archduke assassinated but he was one of the breaking points. A power vacuum led to the Sengoku period, the largest period of turmoil in Japan that sapped their economy and led to constant warring over the Shogunate. Vladimir Lenin's revolution (which ended when the Bolsheviks assassinated Tsarvich Alexei) ran Russia into the ground and nearly decimated its economy.

So let me enlighten you: a wizard adds a face to the enemy. A mundane assassin is nothing new. People get killed all the time and someone thinks it's but a simple power struggle. Toss in a person who can fly and shoot fire from his hands and you put assassination on an entirely new level. People who are fearful of walking the woods at night and hear about demons in church suddenly fear for their lives. Lords and nobles are fearful because this "mad flying assassin" can strike anywhere and everywhere.

Aside from the economic and military turmoil I mentioned above (lord has one less vassal, he's no longer receiving tributes, the assassinated baron's son may very well declare independence or defect) you have people who are now rallied by fear and hatred. In a fantasy setting, the king declares a witch hunt. After all, what's to stop this mad wizard from targeting him? Anyone shown using magic powers is to be executed on the spot. People point to innocents, calling them out as spell casters. People are stopped in the roads and demanded to show their goods. If you're caught with a spell book or even an interest in scrolls or arcane tomes, you're dead.


(new keyboard... feels weird)

So, in answer to some of the background questions: What caused the dark age: A natural disaster, culminating a massive and wide-scale battle royale across the entire continent.

Wizards: Are running the show, about thirty years after the collapse of society the wizards placed a brilliant tactician at the helm of an army, and had him take over. He disappeared and now the wizards are in charge.

They aren't very nice people, they are selfish rulers, and ineffectual leaders. Most of them are cruel and unskilled at ruling, so the majority of society is ruled by those who can claim the wizards' favor, or those strong enough that none of the ordinary people can stop them, but not so powerful that the wizards take notice. Its very cut-throat, and crime is at a high.

PC Wizards: The Wizard Kings have a bit of a policy when it comes to lesser wizards: If you're not with me, you're against me (and thus subject to the mercy of my armies), and if you're powerful enough to be a threat to me, you're against me (see previous note). The Wizard Kings unilaterally hate one another, and are constantly at war.

Trade and industry aren't huge, there isn't really a merchant caste, and no standardized currency or banking system. its still firmly stuck in the Feudal system, and the people in charge aren't really inclined to let that change. Barter is the heart of the small town economies, and large towns aren't really much more than military fortifications, thriving on battle and prostitution.

There's very much a "Might Makes Right" mentality, and news is slow to travel, since it is rare for villagers to leave the safety of their townships, and their local garrisons, and forge out into the wilds. Also, I think I mentioned that the lords hate each other.

The church is underground, the Wizard Kings have banned the worship of any gods but the gods of magic, which won't work out well for them in the long run.

THIS VIDEO IS TOPICAL!

So you've basically created Dark Sun?


This one made me laugh... I'm sorry, but it did not work this way.
As others point out, you DO NOT screw with the guys with the guns.
Mercenaries where respected, at least the way a mafia boss is respected. It is pointless to say "in my castle I have 60+ soldiers that can swarm your gang" because in the next years you won't be reliable for others mercenaries, and will sooner or later (methinks sooner) be killed by your better supported rivals. Always if YOU survive the fireball you will receive before that gang is swarmed.

5 PCs aren't "the guns." A lord has the right to tax people on his property. If you're a traveler passing through the patrols can stop you and demand a tribute. It's his land and his right. Are they going to steal every gold piece you have? No, but if you're seen dealing with items that sell for thousands of gold you're going to screw up the economy.

The economy isn't set-in-stone. A good DM knows how to work the prices to reflect people who dump a treasure horde onto a small town.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-27, 11:08 AM
-Everyone begins illiterate.

Anyone in the Clergy and Wizards should still be able to read and write, in my opinion. Also, different races (assuming you have more than just humans) would likely have changed their culture very little, depending on the race in question. 500 years is within the lifetime of an elf, after all :). An elf who reached adulthood during your Dark Ages campaign would just be shy of venerable in your Renaissance Campaign.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 11:12 AM
Anyone in the Clergy and Wizards should still be able to read and write, in my opinion. Also, different races (assuming you have more than just humans) would likely have changed their culture very little, depending on the race in question. 500 years is within the lifetime of an elf, after all :). An elf who reached adulthood during your Dark Ages campaign would just be shy of venerable in your Renaissance Campaign.

You should still spend a skill point to learn how to read. Unless your world has a printing press you're not going to get much training reading.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 11:15 AM
So we've gone from casting fireball at a carriage to throwing a bead through a window?
Yes, because that is how the Fireball spell works. You see, the spell creates this bead that you direct towards the target. It can go through small openings. Would you like me to provide you with the text of the spell we are discussing? It might prove to be very helpful information because you seem only to have a vague idea of how the spell works.


Are you're doing this while invisible, while flying,
Is there something that prevents the Wizard from flying and being invisible? You make casting a second and third (or second) level spell sound like something that cannot be done in 12 seconds.


and while hunting dogs are surrounding the carriage.
Scent reaches 60 feet at most, as per the actual rules on the subject.


Are we also ruling out the possibility that many nobility fearful of their lives would use decoys in stage coaches and instead travel amongst their soldiers?
You have me there. I guess it would be too time consuming to knock off all his decoys.

Better burn down his house instead. Still sends the message and gets back at Baron von Jerk.


Combustible is not the same as flammable. Paper is combustible. A bed isn't.
The things that go on the bed are. Like the bedding. And blankets. Any further objections, or do your nobles sleep in asbestos? (Incidentally, very bad idea.)



People disappear all the time. "Stay out of the woods or the monster's will get you." Assassination calls attention. The mysterious witch of the woods is feared.
But you don't answer the question of how the nation doesn't fall apart when one man dies suddenly if one assassination sends the entire country into chaos.


So he can rest 6 hours peacefully with no one bothering him. He still has 2 hours left plus 15-60 minutes to prepare + 24 hours to wait for his daily allotment to refresh.

Rope trick below 9th level is useless for anything but a short reprieve.

You conveniently ignored the part where I talked about extending it, which would grant 12 hours of safe hiding. Nice try, but no dice.


Whole nations have collapsed through a single, simple act because said act is the boiling point.
Are those the exception or the rule? Forgive me, but you seem to indicate that it is the rule rather than the exception, while I believe in the other way around.


France and Germany were at each others throats for decades (Franco-Prussian war being a big weight upon their strained relationships) with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand giving the leaders in Vienna excuse enough to declare war. He wasn't the first Archduke assassinated but he was one of the breaking points. A power vacuum led to the Sengoku period, the largest period of turmoil in Japan that sapped their economy and led to constant warring over the Shogunate.
I believe all your examples are flawed because the people involved all wanted to go to war. The assassination only provided an excuse. The actual conflict was inevitable.

Incidentally, I think you'd be happier if you did not bring real life issues to the board. Just saying.


Aside from the economic and military turmoil I mentioned above (lord has one less vassal, he's no longer receiving tributes, the assassinated baron's son may very well declare independence or defect) you have people who are now rallied by fear and hatred.
Let us ignore the fact that a peaceful succession is more likely. Continue.


In a fantasy setting, the king declares a witch hunt. After all, what's to stop this mad wizard from targeting him?Anyone shown using magic powers is to be executed on the spot. People point to innocents, calling them out as spell casters. People are stopped in the roads and demanded to show their goods. If you're caught with a spell book or even an interest in scrolls or arcane tomes, you're dead.
Meanwhile, the real wizards laugh.

Muhuhaha!

Given that wizards are the ones with boatloads of Int, I'm sure the tactic "Hide the book, wait for John Proctor to be hanged, then continue on when the coast is clear" shouldn't be hard to come up with. Also, "Invisibility, Fly, countryside, Extended Rope Trick."

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 11:31 AM
Yes, that is how the Fireball spell works. You see, the spell creates this bead that you direct towards the target. It can go through small openings. Would you like me to provide you with the text of the spell we are discussing? It might prove to be very helpful information.

I thought you were talking about the fireball necklace which is a bead attached to a string and can be thrown through an opening. However, by RAW, you can't target something you can't see. A fireball can be directed through an opening, but, carriages (http://www.thedevilshorsemen.com/images/carriages/17th_c_&_medieval_carriages/carriage_5_tn.jpg), especially ones that carried VIPs, didn't have windows or openings. Those that did (http://www.judsharp.com/show-image/144390/Jud-Sharp/Carriage-in-Medieval-Days.jpg) had enclosed windows. Your fireball may break the glass on the first try but you won't be hitting anyone inside.


You conveniently ignored the part where I talked about extending it, which would grant 12 hours of safe hiding. Nice try, but no dice.

Actually you said nothing about extending it. And even if you did that's another 3rd level spell you'll have to conveniently have access to.


Are those the exception or the rule? Forgive me, but you seem to indicate that it is the rule rather than the exception, while I believe in the other way around.

And what is the DMs job? That's right, to rule.


I believe all your examples are flawed because the people involved all wanted to go to war. The assassination only provided an excuse. The actual conflict was inevitable.

Incidentally, I think you'd be happier if you did not bring real life issues to the board. Just saying.

And in my fantasy world, everything is in turmoil. Monsters are prowling the borders and the economy is on the hinge of breaking. The PC is now a scary, flying assassin and everyone is fearful of their lives that they begin a witch hunt.

You're completely ruling out that the DM is in charge of the story. Maybe the ranger of the woods saw the wizard for the brief moment he became visible after casting the fireball. Maybe there were witnesses. The DM can create any viable scenario to challenge the PCs. That's his job.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 11:40 AM
I thought you were talking about the fireball necklace which is a bead attached to a string and can be thrown through an opening. However, by RAW, you can't target something you can't see. A fireball can be directed through an opening, but, carriages (http://www.thedevilshorsemen.com/images/carriages/17th_c_&_medieval_carriages/carriage_5_tn.jpg), especially ones that carried VIPs, didn't have windows or openings. Those that did (http://www.judsharp.com/show-image/144390/Jud-Sharp/Carriage-in-Medieval-Days.jpg) had enclosed windows. Your fireball may break the glass on the first try but you won't be hitting anyone inside.
Hence I said "If the windows are open."




Actually you said nothing about extending it. And even if you did that's another 3rd level spell you'll have to conveniently have access to.
Yes I did say something about extending it. It was right there in the text. Do you want me to quote it for you?

Also, with regard to it being another 4rd level spell, Sudden Extend was explicitly mentioned in the section on Rope Trick.

Furthermore, a 6th level wizard can be expected to have 3 spell slots per day if a generalist.

This is enough for 1 Extended Rope Trick, 1 Fireball, and 1 Fly spell, assuming flight isn't taken care of by Alter Self.



And what is the DMs job? That's right, to rule.
I do not believe that you understand the English phrase I have just used, where rule means something different.



You're completely ruling out that the DM is in charge of the story.
You must be misunderstanding me. What I am saying is that PCs can get back at nobles with poor manners, and that is is very hard for low level characters to find and kill said wizards. Higher level characters could do it, but I was assuming an E6 environment, otherwise I'd have used something more powerful than third level spells.

Maybe the ranger of the woods saw the wizard for the brief moment he became visible after casting the fireball. Maybe there were witnesses.
I've mentioned use of the Disguise spell to disguise from the start.

The DM can create any viable scenario to challenge the PCs. That's his job.
But I'd like for the explanation to be plausible. There's no way in E6, only in DnD where you have level 10+ characters.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 11:59 AM
Yes I did say something about extending it. It was right there in the text. Do you want me to quote it for you?

None of your posts said anything about extended rope trick. You mentioned sudden empower fireball and you mentioned rope trick. Don't bother editing it in because I already read every single post.


You must be misunderstanding me. What I am saying is that PCs can get back at nobles with poor manners, and that is is very hard for low level characters to find and kill said wizards. Higher level characters could do it, but I was assuming an E6 environment, otherwise I'd have used something more powerful than third level spells.

Yes, an E6 environment. That means there are other 6th level characters besides the PCs.


I do not believe that you understand the English phrase I have just used, where rule means something different.

No, you said it's the exception not the rule. The DM is in charge of the rules both literally and figuratively. I'm not going to use real world examples, but if good drama and story telling call for it then the DM can allow it.


But I'd like for the explanation to be plausible. There's no way in E6, only in DnD where you have level 10+ characters.

NPCs, yes. Nothing rules out powerful monsters or higher level NPCs. Only the PCs are restricted. The PCs could very well end up facing an adult dragon. The DM shouldn't make the fight impossible, instead he should stress the players find a story related way to destroy it. An artifact of power or magic item.

Regardless, the conversation is becoming boring. This topic has inspired me to start up a game based on the works of Robin Hood where King Richard I has been captured in Austria causing his brother to usurp the throne. The knights have broken their oath of fealty and England has plunged into a civil war over the throne.

The PCs are mercenaries who give themselves to the highest bidder but ultimately want to see John ousted (or perhaps even help him control England). Real life setting meets fantasy. Yeah, that'll work.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 12:11 PM
None of your posts said anything about extended rope trick. You mentioned sudden empower fireball and you mentioned rope trick. Don't bother editing it in because I already read every single post.
My apologies. I thought I had mentioned how to get the most coverage out of Rope Trick possible in a previous post.

Anyways, whether or not I said it, you can extend it.


Yes, an E6 environment. That means there are other 6th level characters besides the PCs.
Which means?



No, you said it's the exception not the rule. The DM is in charge of the rules both literally and figuratively. I'm not going to use real world examples, but if good drama and story telling call for it then the DM can allow it.
Ok. You are completely misunderstanding the phrase "Exception, not the rule."

Aldizog
2009-12-27, 12:43 PM
Okay, so let's assume Pharoah's Fist is right and wizards are insanely godly brokenly powerful even within E6 and will always slaughter the poor helpless stupid mundanes and nobody ever has any chance against a wizard unless they get a caster of their own. (Frankly, that is only a slight exaggeration of how I see things once flying invisible fireballing wizards show up.)

Then, if you want a Dark Ages feel, either restrict magic in some way (possibly raising the spell levels of many of the options, making wizards use the bard spell progression, requiring rare and dangerous foci, requiring the "2 new spells known per level" to be actually found and not automatically learned [so you as DM actively include spells in the world, rather than exclude], or something else) or, as has been suggested, use wizards as the rulers and feudal lords.

I am STRONGLY in favor of limiting spells to those that you actively choose to include in the game, and requiring prayerbooks for clerics so they are under the same restrictions. And don't tell the players ahead of time what the spells will be -- they will discover the world along with their characters, and have that fun of discovery. Players of casters will have to trust that you'll include spells that will let them be useful, but if they don't trust you as a DM in that regard, then they shouldn't be playing in your campaign anyway.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 12:51 PM
Okay, so let's assume Pharoah's Fist is right and wizards are insanely godly brokenly powerful even within E6 and will always slaughter the poor helpless stupid mundanes and nobody ever has any chance against a wizard unless they get a caster of their own. (Frankly, that is only a slight exaggeration of how I see things once flying invisible fireballing wizards show up.)

Then, if you want a Dark Ages feel, either restrict magic in some way (possibly raising the spell levels of many of the options, making wizards use the bard spell progression, requiring rare and dangerous foci, requiring the "2 new spells known per level" to be actually found and not automatically learned [so you as DM actively include spells in the world, rather than exclude], or something else) or, as has been suggested, use wizards as the rulers and feudal lords.

I am STRONGLY in favor of limiting spells to those that you actively choose to include in the game, and requiring prayerbooks for clerics so they are under the same restrictions. And don't tell the players ahead of time what the spells will be -- they will discover the world along with their characters, and have that fun of discovery. Players of casters will have to trust that you'll include spells that will let them be useful, but if they don't trust you as a DM in that regard, then they shouldn't be playing in your campaign anyway.

Determine what spells they get by rolling on a percentile table.

Like how real men do it.

jmbrown
2009-12-27, 12:54 PM
Okay, so let's assume Pharoah's Fist is right and wizards are insanely godly brokenly powerful even within E6 and will always slaughter the poor helpless stupid mundanes and nobody ever has any chance against a wizard unless they get a caster of their own. (Frankly, that is only a slight exaggeration of how I see things once flying invisible fireballing wizards show up.)

Then, if you want a Dark Ages feel, either restrict magic in some way (possibly raising the spell levels of many of the options, making wizards use the bard spell progression, requiring rare and dangerous foci, requiring the "2 new spells known per level" to be actually found and not automatically learned [so you as DM actively include spells in the world, rather than exclude], or something else) or, as has been suggested, use wizards as the rulers and feudal lords.

I am STRONGLY in favor of limiting spells to those that you actively choose to include in the game, and requiring prayerbooks for clerics so they are under the same restrictions. And don't tell the players ahead of time what the spells will be -- they will discover the world along with their characters, and have that fun of discovery. Players of casters will have to trust that you'll include spells that will let them be useful, but if they don't trust you as a DM in that regard, then they shouldn't be playing in your campaign anyway.

The unfortunate fact is that 3.5 isn't suited for mundane play. At all. The swords-and-sorcery feel of AD&D where wizards started with randomly selected spells and the DM was encouraged by the DMG to make spell components for powerful spells so rare that they're an adventure of their own is gone. In a 3.5 setting the players shouldn't be dealing with knights and nobles. They should be fighting horrible monsters and demons most foul.

The way I DM I take the outcome of the players actions and ramp it up to as high of a dramatic point as possible. Why? Because conflict is fun. Nobody wants to watch a movie where the hero shoots the villain in the first five minutes then walks away *cue credits*. You killed the baron? His son takes over who's an even bigger jerk and starts a witch hunt. The hags in the Forbidden Forest had a vision of you assassinating the baron and now take interest in your power. Things like that create a good and exciting game.

All of this is a moot point, though, because the OP has decided to go with a completely different setting. I don't know if he's played Dark Sun or not but what he suggested earlier in this topic is pretty much that minus the cannibal halflings.

pasko77
2009-12-27, 01:30 PM
5 PCs aren't "the guns." A lord has the right to tax people on his property. If you're a traveler passing through the patrols can stop you and demand a tribute. It's his land and his right.

I think we agree to disagree :)
In my personal view "reputation" of not screwing with mercs is more important than land rights. And yes, a wizard that can kill several men before being took down definately IS "the guns".



Are they going to steal every gold piece you have? No, but if you're seen dealing with items that sell for thousands of gold you're going to screw up the economy.


Nope, concepts like this came later, with mercantilism.
It's not what would happen in high middle ages, that is what we were discussion.

JonestheSpy
2009-12-27, 03:04 PM
Hey Ondonaflash, there's a story you really need to read, it matches your description of your world very closely, and I think would give you a lot of inspiration.

It's "The Finder" by Ursula le Guin, from her book Tales From Earthsea. It takes place centuries before most of her Earthsea stories (which everyone need to read, btw), when the world has fallen into chaos after the death of the last king, and competing pirate-lords and wizards are constantly vieing for power. And powerful wizards either enslaving or destroying any less powerful ones is a big elemnt of the story. Great stuff to mine from there, and a great tale in its own right.

noiadodh
2009-12-27, 03:36 PM
i bet 10 gold that jmbrown will say that a monk with partially charged wands is stronger than this example wizard within 5 posts...

Kantolin
2009-12-27, 04:20 PM
I do agree with the /point/ of much of this why-did-this-become-can-you-kill-a-wizard-or-not debate, though.

The 'arbitrary irritation tax' sounds like the equivalent of walking up to the group of dangerous mercenaries you hired to do something dangerous (Showing you know that they can be threatening), and slapping them.

Even if that's not something that would result in them burning your kingdom down, that's certainly something I'd at least have done a lot of thought about. After all, you just sent them to go kill the dragon that was causing you problems, so you wouldn't want to make yourself a second dragon.

Assuming he's a noncombatant or you're in a grittier (or lower level) game, there are a lot of ways the lord could end up killed - from being fireballed or scorching ray'd or acid arrow'd, to being shot with a longbow from the party's fighter who's 200 feet away, to the party rogue or monk sneaking up and getting in a couple lucky shots. You could do it by being lucky - but these people are particularly well trained to do just that.

I imagine most people would prefer to be on their good sides. Then, even if you have enough of a force to deal with them should they turn on you, they'll make you spend a healthy quantity of resources which probably are better spent not slapping them in the first place. :P

Now, as a PC who'd like to survive, you do have to worry about things like armies or mobs or the king or what-not. Of course, if you have a proper assassination plan, that could be an entire campaign there. :P

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-27, 05:41 PM
Thing is: Putting down the PCs without using assassins or forcing them to follow your laws will never, ever, end well. Because the PCs I DM for, and the characters I play, are almost universally devious gits. They'll play along for awhile, but when you least expect it you'll find out that half of your army either betrayed you or died. Then you're going to have to deal with your neighbor who just heard about your plight and decided he wanted to try to take a piece off of you.

Why? Because diplomacy is the easiest skill to use when you've got no magical items.

ondonaflash
2009-12-29, 05:46 PM
Incidentally, the indolent and selfish Wizard Kings (name pending), all get killed by the general who went MIA, about ten years after I've decided to set my adventure, maybe shorter, it depends on whether the PCs are interested in playing a part in that battle.

Also, I've heard of Dark Sun, but I'd never played it. I was actually basing my decision off of a combination of things, "Elminster: The Making of a Mage" by Ed Greenwood gave me the whole Wizard Kings deal, "A Song of Ice and Fire" for some of the dynamics involved, "Chrono Trigger"'s kingdom of Zeal, for the fallen empire, "The Jester" by James Patterson for the overarching social dynamic, and pending revolt, and Xanatos from "Gargoyles" playing the part of The Iron General, who kills the wizard kings and establishes an empire that allows the continent to prosper and grow as a civilization, pending its first renaissance in present day, and who cripples the magic users so badly that to this day they are incapable of seizing political control.

mostlyharmful
2009-12-29, 05:49 PM
Incidentally, the indolent and selfish Wizard Kings (name pending), all get killed by the general who went MIA, about ten years after I've decided to set my adventure, maybe shorter, it depends on whether the PCs are interested in playing a part in that battle.

how? were they temporallily depowered? were they really really dumb for some reason? Did they never keep tabs of their direct opponents?

ondonaflash
2009-12-29, 06:00 PM
how? were they temporallily depowered? were they really really dumb for some reason?

This one. Did you note my "indolent, and selfish" quote? Each one was arrogant, introverted, and foolish. They felt so secure in their own superiority that they made stupid mistakes. They were by no means brilliant generals, and had no concentrated military force. He eventually managed to outsmart them, and corner them one by one, butchering them like fatted pigs.

There's a whole full length story involved with how he defeats them, but as I mentioned, he kills one by cornering him in his "Word of Recall" location after he's expended all his magic, One of them tries to "Scry and Die" him, only to teleport into the center of a military camp that's ready for him, because the Iron General's sword sensed his scrying, one of them is mobbed by his own citizens who set his keep on fire while he is cowering in his lab (which then explodes), and one of them is killed by the last one, who goes to confront the Iron General in a duel and gets murdered by seven bowmen Clerics. (We're still in the planning stages)

He also had an artifact sword that makes him immune to direct magic.

Alejandro
2009-12-29, 06:05 PM
This thread is very entertaining.

mostlyharmful
2009-12-29, 06:09 PM
This one. Did you note my "indolent, and selfish" quote? Each one was arrogant, introverted, and foolish. They felt so secure in their own superiority that they made stupid mistakes. They were by no means brilliant generals, and had no concentrated military force. He eventually managed to outsmart them, and corner them one by one, butchering them like fatted pigs.

There's a whole full length story involved with how he defeats them, but as I mentioned, he kills one by cornering him in his "Word of Recall" location after he's expended all his magic, One of them tries to "Scry and Die" him, only to teleport into the center of a military camp that's ready for him, because the Iron General's sword sensed his scrying, one of them is mobbed by his own citizens who set his keep on fire while he is cowering in his lab (which then explodes), and one of them is killed by the last one, who goes to confront the Iron General in a duel and gets murdered by seven bowmen.

He also had an artifact sword that makes him immune to direct magic.

none of that is in any way even close to dumb enough for a high level wizard to bite it to melee if there options aren't limited by DM fiat. where's the clones? where's the Contingencies? Where's the Superiour Invisibility, trained apprentices casting scry, bound outsiders, phantom steed/cloudkill combos, suggesion/mindrape, etc....

you don't need these guys to be stupid once, you need them to be consistently stupid and indolent on a truly epic scale even in the face of what seems a credible opposition.

ondonaflash
2009-12-29, 06:29 PM
They aren't PCs, they are characters, which makes them less subject to DM fiat, and more subject to Author's fiat. And they aren't especially high level, the strongest one is about level 14, give or take, I intentionally leave their powers nebulous.

I think I had some Outsider stuff involved, the primary antagonist was being manipulated by a Devil (Who eventually gets his ass purified). But there's a "Diablo" book which features something similar, so I had to create some distinctions. When the clones appeared they did so bereft of wealth, resources, or armies, the 20 years succeeding the Iron General's rise were made very tumultuous by their existance, but it really doesn't end well for them.

The Iron King, nee General was supported by the underground church, and he helps it gain power, so when the clones "turn on", they are facing a man with unlimited resources with nothing to their names except whatever spells they had memorized when they died, or the spells they had, which preclude the necessity of the spellbooks. One of them actually leads a revolt of flame elementals... he gets drawn and quartered, then striken from all historical records. His name is made anathema.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-29, 06:52 PM
Magic items should be traded, not exchanged for liquid cash. A +1 sword should buy you 200 acres and a plow. Boots of speed will buy a man a farm.
Wait, what? Why would the owner of the 200 acres want a +1 sword? Why would he value the sword more than the 200 acres? Why would the owner of a farm want to trade it for boots of speed? There's not much magic items can be traded for except, well, magic items.


So you see, stomping out PC stupidity

PC stupidity? It's the Dark Ages. Allowing murderous violence will heighten the dark feel. Noble pillages neighboring fief, noble makes irrational demands, PCs kill noble. Reasonable.
Of course, the counter-reaction is also reasonable; but viewing it as a "punishment" for "stupidity" is unnecessarily confrontational.

ondonaflash
2009-12-29, 07:01 PM
Its all moot anyways, my friends are pretty good about following plot lines, its just a matter of getting the mood right.

Aldizog
2009-12-29, 07:15 PM
Wait, what? Why would the owner of the 200 acres want a +1 sword? Why would he value the sword more than the 200 acres? Why would the owner of a farm want to trade it for boots of speed? There's not much magic items can be traded for except, well, magic items.

Actually, this particular example makes a lot of sense to me in a feudal system. The lord who owns the land has to report to his liege for military service. He wants to survive said military service, so he'd like to have the magic sword and boots of speed. He is in a position to offer land, livestock, and so on. He doesn't necessarily have a vault full of big sacks of gold coins.

To the OP: I think your backstory of the Iron King sounds excellent and very fitting for fantasy fiction. As a player I'd happily do this one-shot without bickering about "Well that could never happen because a wizard would do X, Y, and Z."

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-29, 07:20 PM
I'll take that explanation for Boots of Speed - Haste is damn useful. But a +1 sword? Is the noble really going to trade away an investment for a mere +1 to damage? Unless it's obviously magical, e.g. glowing (for morale), I can't imagine it would be worthwhile.

Aldizog
2009-12-29, 07:36 PM
I'll take that explanation for Boots of Speed - Haste is damn useful. But a +1 sword? Is the noble really going to trade away an investment for a mere +1 to damage? Unless it's obviously magical, e.g. glowing (for morale), I can't imagine it would be worthwhile.
Okay, think in terms of a primitive warlord in some mud-stained castle who doesn't know game mechanics. He knows this is a magic sword. He knows it is extremely durable (perhaps it doesn't even show a nick or scratch when used in sparring, and it shows no rust). Maybe it is known to be the sword used by a local hero a generation earlier. The player trying to make the sale can advise that this sword can slay "ghosts and demons" (incorporeal undead and anything with DR/magic), and the local priests can back that up. And the morale/prestige boost, as you suggest.

I imagine that all that sounds pretty good in-character.

Inhuman Bot
2009-12-29, 10:20 PM
You know, jmbrown, it's entirely possible to say "But yeah, the Noble actually has a contigent teleportation and true ressurection. He teleports 5 bazillion miles away, summons a horrendous fiend from beyond the sun of a distant world, and eats you guys. Gee, that's too bad." But what're the chances of anyone doing such things? Slim to none.

The Baron fears a man slitting his throat with a knife most likely, because that's far more likely then a mage carefully planning out a murder to the last detail, and blowing him up with a fireball.

ondonaflash
2009-12-29, 10:42 PM
Its because the wizards are the politicians, the nobility, they all hate and fear one another. And since everyone who would profit from the baron's death can use magic, it would make sense to fear magic. The peasants, the mundane? They don't play the game of thrones, only the magic users.