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Evard
2009-12-26, 12:56 PM
In any DnD edition what does death mean to you? Do you think you lose and get all mad? Do you love the challenge and roll up a new character to try again? Or do you wait for your character to be revived (while secretly wishing there were save game crystals like in video games)?

I don't see dying as losing but (specifically if i died in a coooool way) i see it as another way of winning :3 After i light the character sheet on fire my character is free.

Xzeno
2009-12-26, 01:02 PM
Depends on the campaign. In a role-playing heavy campaign, I don't like to die and always wait to be rezzed. I put a lot of time and energy into my characters.

In another campaign I'm playing (on hold right now) we ritually destroy our character sheets after death. We lost four men in the first (short) dungeon. Only two (out of seven) survived the next adventure. We had a few TPKs under our belts by level three. From there, Darwinism took over. One of the best campaigns ever.

Mastikator
2009-12-26, 01:08 PM
I like to do stupid things with my characters, like attach a line to myself and a javelin, and throw the javelin at a giant hippogryph. Or bullrush enemies off a cliff. So I don't have a problem with it per se. But most of the times it's my team mates who anger the wrong enemy and flees and then I die. That is kind of annoying.

Evard
2009-12-26, 01:15 PM
The only thing that bugs me when the DM actually kills your character off just cause he/she doesn't like it. I'm a guy who played a female warlord in 4e... needless to say that the DM didn't like the idea of a guy playing as a girl and had a snake roll 4 nat 20's in a row to crush me. Any other time that i died i didn't really care cause its all fun and games :)

Satyr
2009-12-26, 01:36 PM
Mostly I see the death of a character as the end. Whenever I can, I play without any form of ressurection magic, and death means death, make a new character. Ressurection magic cheapens death, and therefore cheapens the drama and tension in the game. They are therefore a truly anti-climactic concept and should be seen as the RPG equivalent to water wings or training wheels.

I rarely participate in a game as a player these days, but if I do, I tend to see the character as a piece of the common literary production, and if its death will make the game more interesting, or give the whole world a more tangible atmosphere, than I won't say anything about it. My characters usually want to stay alive, and act accordingly, but if they die, it happens. It's unfortunate, but that's all. Time to create a more interesting character. I have a particular dislkie against staged deaths, or game masters who manipulate the dice to save a character. If I have earned myself a onest death on a dusty road in an unnecessary random encounter, I don't want to be cheated from it.

As a gamemaster, I will try to kill player characters when the according NPC try to kill player characters. Especially in the first gaming session, I often actively try to off one of the bastards, using the external pressure to bring the survivors closer together, and show him that there is a true risk involved. I never cheat to kill or save a character - those who face danger may die in it, and if one player doesn't want the character to die, he or she should probably not get involved in risky adventures.
On the other hand, combats and other life-threatening perils are relatively rare in my campaigs (not in all campaigns) ad if you want, you could probably play a viable character who never ever participates in any combat.

Rhiannon87
2009-12-26, 01:40 PM
An annoyance and inconvenience that takes me out of combat (and possibly out of the action until the next day when the cleric can memorize raise dead). I'm in a VERY heavy roleplay group-- we've all had the same characters in this game for several years now. We've put in way too much time, effort, and love into them to let something like a dice roll take them out. We're level 12 characters, we've got access to resurrection magic and we keep a healthy stock of diamonds on hand so that no one has to be dead for very long.

oxybe
2009-12-26, 01:47 PM
depends on cause of death:

death by SoD or "Gotcha!" trap = lame and unfun. avoid at all cost.

death by player stupidity = well deserved.

death by another player's stupidity = :smallmad:

death anytime where there is actual story buildup + tension = awesome & brilliant.

death by mooks, random battle, ect... = :smallannoyed:

death by DM fiat = next time, i'll probably leave.

Anytime the death of the character is entirely at the whim of the dm or i have no chance to react (and thus possibly save my character) i tend to get annoyed. the character is effectively my investment in the game + world, take away the character and i tend to feel less invested in the world, especially if i feel like it could happen without rhyme or reason.

if i die by my own devices or it's an awesome buildup, then yeah it's awesome, otherwise it tends to just feel... empty.

as for the reroll/revive, i tend to go both ways.

in the early game, i tend to reroll. i've got less investment in the character at that point and it's generally easier to write in new PCs. in the later game, i tend to get attached to my PC plus character creation & item selection takes up a long time and it's just easier to scratch off gold & come back the next day, also trying to write in a level 19 character in a setting where you were already a mover & shaker 4-5 levels ago gets hard to justify.

there are exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking low level = rerolls, high level = revive.

rayne_dragon
2009-12-26, 01:48 PM
It means my character finally became a lich. :smallwink:

Jokes aside, it's a way to get rid of a character I didn't want to play, an inconvience if I can get rezzed, or the end of a good story. If I like my character, I tend to be sad when they die off for good.

Johel
2009-12-26, 02:06 PM
Really depends

I tends to play the smart type of character : better fail than be killed.
This means that when one get killed, it's either through sheer bad luck, unusual stupidity... or impressive bravery.

There was a case where the character wasn't smart, though : a paladin hobbit. He compensated with Lawful Stupid Bravery. A lot.
Yeah... His last action was to fight some kind demonic lycanthrope (I think it was a dire wolf lycanthrope. Not sure, though) which melted every single weapon that hits it while inflicting fire damage. The hobbit started with the short sword, then the dagger, then the heavy shield, then a chair, buying a few rounds for his comrades to flee.

He ended up behind water barrels with his sling before rolling under a table while screaming insults at the monster. The table was smashed moments after and I rushed into grapple. I lasted 2 more rounds through lucky rolls, then got chewed by the monster.

The rest of the party ? Ran away and got killed by shadows which waited outside. Useless sacrifice but memorable nevertheless :smallamused:

So, yeah, death usually means "-You've screwed up somewhere !!", sometime followed by a brief "-Time to be heroic" moment.

Evard
2009-12-26, 02:08 PM
Nice and I see where you are coming from. I never got to play a serious high level campaign (the one that hit level 14-16 was iffy at best -_- ) so i never really put a lot of time into characters (although i put a lot of thought into them). I usually dont play crazy or stupid characters so not to piss off the other players lol! About the closes bad thing i done was crit failured a couple times in a row on a 3.5 game and killed off the sorcerer (who i revived after the fight due to being a cleric :3 ) He got incredibly mad even though i didn't charge him for his revival XD

DabblerWizard
2009-12-26, 02:38 PM
In any DnD edition what does death mean to you? Do you think you lose and get all mad? Do you love the challenge and roll up a new character to try again? Or do you wait for your character to be revived?


As a player I put time and effort into my characters. I figure out story, motivations, goals, etc. These characters have significance to me, so I don't enjoy losing them.

Sometimes I would enjoy the challenge of playing a new character, but I wouldn't let my current character die off inconsequentially.

I don't like getting mad, and generally I would find it silly to react rashly to the death of a character. On the other hand, I would be upset if a DM randomly killed off a character for no good reason. If I decide to let my character die for in-game reasons, or if I act foolishly despite warning, I'd accept the consequences of my actions.

Zen Master
2009-12-26, 03:38 PM
Death means I roll up a new character. I dislike getting ressurected - that's for villains, not heroes.

Now, if I get killed due to poor dice rolls or from having to guess at something potentially fatal, I do find it disappointing. However, getting killed in epic combat is what heroes are for.

On a sidenote, I usually create a more powerful character after one dies. I'm not sure how come, but that's the way it turns out. Lets call it compensation: Lets say Brogan d'Orien was killed due to his fairly low-ish defenses. My next character would then be more powerful - likely by having better defences.

Also, I will usually create a character the group could easily meet where ever they might currently be.

World Eater
2009-12-26, 03:49 PM
I usually make characters that I get attached to, and as my DM has trouble making balanced anything and we get no help not dying from him, death makes me sad.

Solaris
2009-12-26, 03:58 PM
That it's time to do shots, 'cause I bagged me another one. The joys of always DMing.

JonestheSpy
2009-12-26, 03:59 PM
needless to say that the DM didn't like the idea of a guy playing as a girl and had a snake roll 4 nat 20's in a row to crush me. Any other time that i died i didn't really care cause its all fun and games :)

Slight sidetrack - no it's actually not needless to say. Your DM should grow the heck up, and any DM who kills a character because they don't like the conception is a crappy one.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-26, 04:05 PM
5,000GP worth of diamonds down the drain.

what?:smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:29 PM
5,000GP worth of diamonds down the drain.

what?:smallbiggrin:

what if you are too low a level to afford that?

bosssmiley
2009-12-26, 04:30 PM
In any DnD edition what does death mean to you? Do you think you lose and get all mad? Do you love the challenge and roll up a new character to try again?

Both. I'm gutted that my character has gone "blarg! I's ded!", especially if I had a lot of time invested in them. But that just means it's time to throw a new character (with all their foibles, hang-ups and oddness) into the mix. Dying in D&D is not losing; dying is an opportunity to manifest new aspects of win.

In the immortal words of The Wire: "It's all in the game."


Or do you wait for your character to be revived (while secretly wishing there were save game crystals like in video games)?

You can write those in as a DM. Resurrection Pods. Ugly Body Snatchers/Audrey II gourd thingies. Touch one and you lose a character level. When you die the pod hatches and a clone of you at the time emerges. This clone is naked, helpless and probably really f'ing confused.

Stick these pods deep in the dungeon for added "he's dead, let's go rescue the poor dumb schmuck" fun...

Or you could add Ghostwalk (manifested ghost PCs, all very *meh*) to your game...

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:34 PM
so what does death means?
It means I get to sit in the corner and not participate the rest of the session.
It means I wasted many hours or even days developing a character.
or, it means I have to pay some money for a resurrection...

Evard
2009-12-26, 04:55 PM
Or you could add Ghostwalk (manifested ghost PCs, all very *meh*) to your game...

Hmm this is interesting because i think DDO allows you to do something like this when you die in a dungeon.

For the last year or so i actually stopped playing due to two main reasons, 1 no one else will DM and 2 when other people DM they tend to kill characters when things ain't going their way in life.

The only time i ever purposely killed a character was when the player asked me to (he was a second striker and wanted to try it as a leader) therefor his character got ganged up on by some floating crystals of doom

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 04:57 PM
I liked the concept of Ghostwalk- but the mechanics could maybe have done with some work.

JonestheSpy
2009-12-26, 04:58 PM
or, it means I have to pay some money for a resurrection...

Shouldn't that be

" It means I have to hope the other characters think mine is worth paying the money to ressurect" ?

taltamir
2009-12-26, 05:00 PM
Shouldn't that be

" It means I have to hope the other characters think mine is worth paying the money to ressurect" ?

no... I the player tell them to take the gold from my purse (which contains 500 pounds of gold) to pay for it... or which items to pawn...
We can pretend they used some divination to ask my ghost which items to pawn (and whether he wants to return)... but realistically, death doesn't stop players from talking to each other. it is just a game after all.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-26, 05:01 PM
To me, not much. I'll either get ressed or see if the DM wants to keep going in the afterlife (very few of mine can wrap their heads around this)

Triaxx
2009-12-26, 05:13 PM
That I've just lost the game. I really hate to loose. So that's why my characters don't tend to be the ones that leap in with risky manuevers, or untried spells. They'll buff themselves to the max, then attack from range.

Unless it's a barbarian. Then they just rely on being the most dangerous thing on the field to survive.

I'm totally okay with fudging the rolls to save my characters.

Inhuman Bot
2009-12-26, 05:17 PM
I don't like dieing, but I love making new charcters and testing them out, to it works fine.

If I die, I usually say "Oh darn" and roll up a new charcter, and try to do better next time.

As I usually play IK games, ressurection is quite risky, so I don't go for that route unless I really loved a charcter.

Evard
2009-12-26, 05:20 PM
That I've just lost the game. I really hate to loose. So that's why my characters don't tend to be the ones that leap in with risky manuevers, or untried spells. They'll buff themselves to the max, then attack from range.

Unless it's a barbarian. Then they just rely on being the most dangerous thing on the field to survive.

I'm totally okay with fudging the rolls to save my characters.

The only time i fudge rolls is if I'm a DM since my natural luck with my dice and other people's dice is a bit... insane (critical hits are my friends) but i'll usually level it out like if i crit to much against the players I'll just make it a number 1 less than the crit value ^ ^. As a player... I don't fudge rolls unless I'm doing to well and another player is getting mad that he/she is having all the horrible luck... one person who used to be my friend blamed me personally for his luck with dice and the fact he couldn't roll above a 10 on any d20..

JonestheSpy
2009-12-26, 05:26 PM
I the player tell them to take the gold from my purse (which contains 500 pounds of gold) to pay for it... or which items to pawn...
We can pretend they used some divination to ask my ghost which items to pawn (and whether he wants to return)... but realistically, death doesn't stop players from talking to each other. it is just a game after all.

Oh, but there is that little issue of "roleplaying". Knowing that their fallen comrade would like to be raised doesn't automatically mean that the other party members wouldn't think it's better to keep the loot themselves and find another meat shield/spellslinger/whatever.

Granted, it'd be a pretty jerky thing to do in real life. On the other hand, if a player was running a character that was a pain in one of the many ways characters can be annoying to other characters - stealing from the party, casting fireballs into melee, etc, - not raising said character seems like a good deterrent against similar behaviour by the player's newly rolled-up creation.

randomhero00
2009-12-26, 05:31 PM
Usually it means I reroll. But I'm good at surviving so I rarely die and death is the only chance I get to make new characters :)

Evard
2009-12-26, 05:47 PM
My death as a Warlord helped another player enter the game as a rogue, i remade a character which i think was a ranger and i brought along my friend who played the rogue :p

Rhiannon87
2009-12-26, 05:55 PM
no... I the player tell them to take the gold from my purse (which contains 500 pounds of gold) to pay for it... or which items to pawn...
We can pretend they used some divination to ask my ghost which items to pawn (and whether he wants to return)... but realistically, death doesn't stop players from talking to each other. it is just a game after all.

We avoid this by having a little thing I like to call the party treasury. A share of the loot goes into said treasury, and majority of the cash gets converted into diamonds or emergency healing items. Before last session, we were carting around 25,000 gp worth of diamonds... then a series of truly horrific fortitude saves forced us to burn through 20,000 gp worth.

A party of 6 level-12 adventurers had half their party die due to frelling ghouls. We collectively failed at least a dozen fort saves in a row. Two of the people who died were fighter types with fort saves over +15. Rolling a 2 or a 3 on something like that is not a good reason for a character to die. Going out in a blaze of glory? Sure. But that sure as hell wasn't it.

Evard
2009-12-27, 02:28 PM
A party of 6 level-12 adventurers had half their party die due to frelling ghouls. We collectively failed at least a dozen fort saves in a row. Two of the people who died were fighter types with fort saves over +15. Rolling a 2 or a 3 on something like that is not a good reason for a character to die. Going out in a blaze of glory? Sure. But that sure as hell wasn't it.

I always wondered why they just didn't make each class have 1 save that they automatically succeed against (have monster have the same thing) unless they roll a 1 on and the other 2 saves go as natural. Since they are heroes (er or villains) and are better than normal people they should have something to really show for it. Like fighters can only fail a fort save on a nat 1 whereas a wizard can only fail a will save on a nat 1 hmm but both of them could potentially fail a reflex save with a roll of 10

Serenity
2009-12-27, 02:58 PM
As the DM, I tend to feel that if a character dies, I'm doing something wrong. I want to challenge the players, I want to scare them, I want to even bring them right to the brink on occasion. But death disrupts the narrative, especially if they can't ressurect, and need to bring in a new character.

Likewise, as a player, I tend to be invested in my character, and want to keep playing that character.

Gorgondantess
2009-12-27, 03:02 PM
As a DM, I feel as if the players don't die from time to time, I'm not doing my job right. Theirs is a dangerous line of work, and it hurts immersion if there is no mortality involved in a profession where they normally should be dying like flies. TPKs generally are pretty bad, but if in the course of an adventure one or two people die, great. That's as it should be.
As a player, well... if I put more investment in the character than normal, sure, I'm kindof dissapointed, but if my characters never die, the game begins to get boring. There's no risk involved.

Grifthin
2009-12-27, 03:20 PM
Our usual DM doesn't make it a secret that he fudges rolls when the party gets in over it's head. I hate it.

When I DM - I only have one simple rule: Actions have consequences. You wanna punch a bear ? prepare to get mauled. You wanna set the town on fire - bounty hunters are likely to seek you out. If you die - suck it up, you brought it on yourself.

What's the point in playing if there's no risk involved and you know you will finish every encounter safely ?

oxybe
2009-12-27, 04:43 PM
just to add, if i start feeling like my character can be taken from me without any input on my part(IE: i cannot react to the situation to even try save myself), then i just stop caring and go into Diablo mode.

and this doesn't just apply to D&D. i'm not too partial to games with a high mortality rate yet i'm expected to attach myself to my character.

the threat of dying for me is much more important then actually dying. the threat of failure is even higher on the importance chart.

i play RPGs to immerse myself in a world with my fictional character because my normal life is pretty darn boring. if i'm always making new PCs or become overly paranoid where i'm checking every 10ft for traps, i can't immerse myself in the game.

taltamir
2009-12-27, 09:10 PM
Oh, but there is that little issue of "roleplaying". Knowing that their fallen comrade would like to be raised doesn't automatically mean that the other party members wouldn't think it's better to keep the loot themselves and find another meat shield/spellslinger/whatever.

Granted, it'd be a pretty jerky thing to do in real life. On the other hand, if a player was running a character that was a pain in one of the many ways characters can be annoying to other characters - stealing from the party, casting fireballs into melee, etc, - not raising said character seems like a good deterrent against similar behaviour by the player's newly rolled-up creation.

thats too abusive... get killed, split your wealth among your buddies, and make a new character with the right WBL... you just made everyone richer and better off by your death, including yourself. you got an actual incentive to die.

But if you get resurrected at a cost of wealth and maybe XP, then you got penalized for your death


We avoid this by having a little thing I like to call the party treasury. A share of the loot goes into said treasury, and majority of the cash gets converted into diamonds or emergency healing items. Before last session, we were carting around 25,000 gp worth of diamonds... then a series of truly horrific fortitude saves forced us to burn through 20,000 gp worth.

A party of 6 level-12 adventurers had half their party die due to frelling ghouls. We collectively failed at least a dozen fort saves in a row. Two of the people who died were fighter types with fort saves over +15. Rolling a 2 or a 3 on something like that is not a good reason for a character to die. Going out in a blaze of glory? Sure. But that sure as hell wasn't it.

that is why 3d6 is superior to a d20


Our usual DM doesn't make it a secret that he fudges rolls when the party gets in over it's head. I hate it.

When I DM - I only have one simple rule: Actions have consequences. You wanna punch a bear ? prepare to get mauled. You wanna set the town on fire - bounty hunters are likely to seek you out. If you die - suck it up, you brought it on yourself.

What's the point in playing if there's no risk involved and you know you will finish every encounter safely ?

you make two completely different and unrelated points.
1. Actions have consequences - great rule... if the players brought death on themselves, either knowingly or through an act they recognize as stupid, then go ahead and give out the consequence... there will be little complaint.
2. What's the point in playing if there's no risk involved and you know you will finish every encounter safely - see, the problem here is that not every encounter is due to your action, and not every risk is due to action... sometimes forces beyond your control conspire against you, and life and death come down to a totally random roll of the dice... which kinda sucks when the roll goes against you.


just to add, if i start feeling like my character can be taken from me without any input on my part(IE: i cannot react to the situation to even try save myself), then i just stop caring and go into Diablo mode.

and this doesn't just apply to D&D. i'm not too partial to games with a high mortality rate yet i'm expected to attach myself to my character.

the threat of dying for me is much more important then actually dying. the threat of failure is even higher on the importance chart.

i play RPGs to immerse myself in a world with my fictional character because my normal life is pretty darn boring. if i'm always making new PCs or become overly paranoid where i'm checking every 10ft for traps, i can't immerse myself in the game.

I agree entirely... the game needs to have a sort of balance there... if death is too common there is no reason to invest in your character

Evard
2009-12-27, 09:53 PM
What penalty do you all think is good for dying? Negative 1 character level (if resurrected) for a limited amount of time, or maybe just negative 1 level permanently? If you re-roll a character should that character start out lower level than the party or with less stuff/money?

To keep party members from looting the dead companions and making a profit from it I made a stupid rule (one that i hate) where there is a death tax. Yes the government is very greedy and they take a big % of a dead person's money/valuables if they are not going to come back to life. Oddly my players liked that idea ^ ^

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-27, 10:18 PM
Death means whatever the DM makes it mean. Certainly my characters will do as much as they can to avoid death, up to and including Contingent Revivify + Heal + Greater Plane Shift. If the DM makes it meaningless, it's either a quick resurrection or an irritating loss. If the DM makes it meaningful, it's just another plot point - one involving my critical failure (since, I, you know, died)

onthetown
2009-12-27, 10:20 PM
It means be thankful that my DM likes the idea of plot-dependant characters. A couple of my characters have died over half a dozen times by now. It's all part of the story.

If they aren't a plot-dependant character? It means find a lot of gold if I like them, erase their sheets if I don't.

Serenity
2009-12-28, 02:22 AM
As a DM, I feel as if the players don't die from time to time, I'm not doing my job right. Theirs is a dangerous line of work, and it hurts immersion if there is no mortality involved in a profession where they normally should be dying like flies. TPKs generally are pretty bad, but if in the course of an adventure one or two people die, great. That's as it should be.
As a player, well... if I put more investment in the character than normal, sure, I'm kindof dissapointed, but if my characters never die, the game begins to get boring. There's no risk involved.

I think this is probably the difference in our playstyles. For me, I think of the game as partaking in a heroic epic, an adventure novel, and/or a high-octane action movie. Now a 'PC' dying in those is not unheard of, but it's the exception, rather than the rule. And when it happens in the story, the author planned it out very carefully, and can ensure that it happens at the dramatically appropriate time, and can afford to devote the time to a long quest to bring them back or properly developing their replacement. A DM doesn't have that luxury. The death of a PC breaks immersion for me because it either means scrambling to justify them finding a replacement, or dragging themselves back to town for resurrection--and I can't make that involve a quest, because in the meantime, one of the players is sitting out doing nothing.

taltamir
2009-12-28, 06:40 AM
What penalty do you all think is good for dying? Negative 1 character level (if resurrected) for a limited amount of time, or maybe just negative 1 level permanently? If you re-roll a character should that character start out lower level than the party or with less stuff/money?

To keep party members from looting the dead companions and making a profit from it I made a stupid rule (one that i hate) where there is a death tax. Yes the government is very greedy and they take a big % of a dead person's money/valuables if they are not going to come back to life. Oddly my players liked that idea ^ ^

their property goes to the next of kin, the DM should not have to enforce this...
"oh, you know how we agreed that property goes to next of kin? well next time someone died we divvied up his stuff instead... so... wanna join?"

yea, proper role playing this shouldn't happen...

the problem is with so many orphan adventurers... what do you do in such a case?

Blas_de_Lezo
2009-12-28, 08:34 AM
Going under -10 hp? :smallbiggrin:

Ozymandias9
2009-12-28, 09:08 AM
In any DnD edition what does death mean to you?

Approved character sheet and notes #2. Or possibly 3.

Nero24200
2009-12-28, 01:48 PM
To me, death should be the end of the character. I've always disliked spells like Ressurection and such because I feel it cheapens death so much. I can understand the need for such spells (since it's a shame for PC's to die just form bad luck, poorly made monsters o something else unforseen), but it still doesn't do much in terms of fluff.

And well...having death be the end adds another level of realisim. The person who finally defeats the villian isn't always going to be the plucky young hero from the start of the story, it rarely is in RL in fact.

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-28, 01:54 PM
I have a single simple rule that I tell my DMs:

I will play my character to the hilt. I will do what he means to do, what he thinks is required for a situation, and I will never munchkin/metagame to keep him alive.

All I ask for in return is: Let the dice fall as they may and give me the right to die as stupidly or heroically as I can. If my Paladin dies in chance encounter to monkeys...so be it. If he dies holding the line against a demon king, so be it. I play with 4d6 out at all times. If my character dies, I will not ask for a reroll. I will ask for a eulogy, for someone to carry his shield home to his father, shed a single tear...and roll a new character.