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Paganboy28
2009-12-26, 02:22 PM
Options are any non-epic dragon.

Personally I like the Arcane dragons, enhanced spell casting is always good.

Plus if you can add on classes then this becomes even better.

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 02:26 PM
By arcane dragons, is that referring to the Hex Dragon and Tme dragon from Dragon Magazine?

If so- they are a bit better at casting than standard dragons.

Also- does non-epic simply refer to dragons that aren't the Prismatic, Force, and Time dragons (Epic Handbook and Dragon magazine) ?

Or does it mean dragons with a CR of 20 or less?

If the latter, than that cuts quite a lot of the oldest dragons of every kind out.

Optimystik
2009-12-26, 02:39 PM
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold of course. :smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-26, 02:41 PM
Pun-Pun.

(Sorry.)

arguskos
2009-12-26, 02:50 PM
Personally, I believe the Purple Dragon is probably the most powerful True Dragon printed, simply because it is the equal or superior of the Gold in nearly every way, and the Gold is considered the most powerful by many. I don't know the Hex Dragon though. Is it a match for the Gold?

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 02:52 PM
Maybe it could be rephrased as

"For it's Challenge Rating, what is the most powerful unmodified true dragon (not counting kobolds)?"

If a CR 20 Purple dragon (Dragon compendium) is a little tougher than any other CR 20 true dragon, then it would be, under this version of the question:

"the most powerful dragon (non-epic)"

This is just my guess though- I suspect there might be slightly more powerful ones possibly.

the Hex and Tome dragons are in Creature Catalog V, Dragon 343 (May 2006)

The Hex dragon maxes out at caster level 21 (Great wyrm) and the Tome dragon caster level 25 (great wyrm)

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-26, 02:55 PM
from personal experience, I'd say my old DM's Shadow Dracolich.

this was the sh*ttiest TPK ever. We were in a Ravenloft campaign at 30th level. I was a Ulithid Vampire Arch Psion/Metamind. We also had a Dwarf Cleric, a Half-Red Dragon Sorcerer, a Half-Orc Bard, a Gnome Barbarian, and a Dark Halfling Ninja. The room we entered had two doors. One with a poisoned vorpal scythe trap, the other was a closed door. So we start by sending the Half-Orc in. No response. We sent in the Cleric. No response. We sent the Halfling. No response. I make a listen check. I hear my party's death screams. I, along with the sorcerer and the barbarian, charge in to see this Dracolich, who uses his breath weapon to kill both of the others, with a massive 28 negative levels. He then did a tail slap which killed the others. I, being the only one left, unleash a powerful mind blast, knocking it down half of its HP. In my final turn, three rounds later, I manage to drop the ceiling on it. Unfortunately, I destroyed the castle, taking myself with it.

arguskos
2009-12-26, 02:58 PM
Maybe it could be rephrased as

"For it's Challenge Rating, what is the most powerful unmodified true dragon (not counting kobolds)?"

If a CR 20 Purple dragon (Dragon compendium) is a little tougher than any other CR 20 true dragon, then it would be, under this version of the question:

"the most powerful dragon (non-epic)"

This is just my guess though- I suspect there might be slightly more powerful ones possibly.

the Hex and Tome dragons are in Creature Catalog V, Dragon 343 (May 2006)

The Hex dragon maxes out at caster level 21 (Great wyrm) and the Tome dragon caster level 25 (great wyrm)
I don't think we can look at Dragons by CR though. They have their own ranking systems. Let's look at Great Wyrms.

Also, by non-epic, I assume he means all the dragons that start small and get crazy, not the ones that START crazy and end insane, like Prismatic/Force.

Paganboy28
2009-12-26, 03:21 PM
I don't think we can look at Dragons by CR though. They have their own ranking systems. Let's look at Great Wyrms.

Also, by non-epic, I assume he means all the dragons that start small and get crazy, not the ones that START crazy and end insane, like Prismatic/Force.

Yes. Any that start off "normal" and non-epic. So no prismatic, force, etc.

So you can have any Gem, Planar, Chromatic, Metallic, Arcane dragon.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-26, 04:07 PM
Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a), hands down. The spellcasting alone makes it better than any other.

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 04:15 PM
There are a whole bunch of dragons that can best be described as "miscellenous" though- not fitting into any of these.

Faerun-specific ones (Monsters of Faerun) some of which made it into Draconomicon-

Brown dragon
Deep dragon
Song dragon
Fang dragon
Shadow dragon

Shining South has the Rattelyr (wingless, cobra head, rattlesnake tail, fire breathing).

Dragon magazine has many more- one that is positively illithid-like (Brainstealer dragon- issue 337), a three-headed one (Dzalmus- issue 349), and many more planar ones to go with the ones in Draconomicon.

Not to mention the Sea Serpents (issue 345), which advance the same way dragons do.

So, if we are stopping at Great Wyrms, the best caster of the all is the Tomb dragon (CL 25) and if we are looking at versatility of breath weapon, and all-round power, some others might be slightly better.

the Steel Dragon is good, but like the Purple Dragon and the Hex Dragon, it maxes out at CL 21.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:16 PM
By arcane dragons, is that referring to the Hex Dragon and Tme dragon from Dragon Magazine?

If so- they are a bit better at casting than standard dragons.

Also- does non-epic simply refer to dragons that aren't the Prismatic, Force, and Time dragons (Epic Handbook and Dragon magazine) ?

Or does it mean dragons with a CR of 20 or less?

If the latter, than that cuts quite a lot of the oldest dragons of every kind out.

or maybe dragons with ECL of 20 or less? because the ECL is higher then their CR.

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 04:19 PM
The reason I suggested using CR, was because of the phrase "non-epic"

So if no dragons were used with a CR above 20- this would limit their power considerably.

Even an Old Tome Dragon (CR 20) would have only the casting abilities of a 17th level sorcerer.

However, if the campaign went into early epic levels, then the dragons would start to catch up- Great Wyrm Tome Dragon is CR 26, caster level 25- possibly a mild challenge for a 26th level party.

peacenlove
2009-12-26, 05:51 PM
From the dragons i have used i can single out the Deep dragon at low levels (True seeing as a CR 3 wyrmling? Count me in! Also a sick familiar if any DM allows it via dragon familiar feat) and the Shadow dragon (Gargantuan + shadow blend + 8 level energy drain breath can rip an unprepared party to shreds. I also exchanged his innate spellcasting to mystery casting -> hallo undispellable buffs :smallbiggrin:).
Honorable mention: CR 4 Pyroclastic dragon. Borrow speed + disintegrating breath weapon + that metabreath feat that increases the save DC of the breath weapon a value equal to your constitution modifier. You can figure out the rest :smallamused:
However i do not own either dragon or dungeon magazine so these dragons elude me.

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 06:04 PM
As far as I know, Dungeon doesn't have any dragon types in it that haven't appeared prior to this in Dragon.

The Steel dragon has been statted three times- online at the WoTC site, in Dragon (with similar abilities) and in Dragons of Faerun.

Dragon Compendium has 3 that never appeared in the main magazine- Purple, Yellow, Orange (Yellow is not much like the 2nd ed version)

deuxhero
2009-12-26, 06:05 PM
Steel Dragon wyrmling with class levels.

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 06:17 PM
What about without?

I figure that "dragon which is most under-CRed"

(or least over-CRed, though I'd be surprised if they were ever over-CRed)

might be a fairly good general measure, without adding character levels to the mix.

If the Steel Dragon went up against the Tome Dragon, the Tome Dragon would have the advantage of more caster levels, and free metamagic, but the Steel dragon would have higher spell resistance.

If we are doing Dragon vs Party though, rather than Dragon vs Dragon, the balance dynamic might be slightly different.

tyckspoon
2009-12-26, 06:31 PM
What about without?

I figure that "dragon which is most under-CRed"

(or least over-CRed, though I'd be surprised if they were ever over-CRed)

might be a fairly good general measure, without adding character levels to the mix.


The Steel as presented in the web article is a pretty strong contender there, at least- it's got a caster level that grows faster than its CR so it's using spells more powerful than those available to an even-leveled party, it's got relevantly high SR at all age categories, it's got bonus SR against some of the most troublesome spell levels, it's got a dangerous breath weapon (cone of Con poison), and by the way, it's a flippin' dragon and will eat you in melee. And the CR table for it is borked anyway- the Very Young and Young are given the same CR, despite the Young gaining an entire new spell level and a size category.

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 06:41 PM
I think the Dragon Magazine and Dragons of Faerun versions might have fixed some of the problems-

the CR table has Very Young as CR 5 and Young as CR 6,

though it calls it the Greyhawk dragon, with Steel Dragon as an alternate common name outside Oerth.

The caster level is always at least 1 or 2 behind the CR.

Though I would say, a CR 23 dragon with CL 21 casting and heavy resistance to arcane spells of levels 1-4, is unusually tough next to other CR 23 creatures.

Even next to the Tome Dragon, its pretty exceptional- at the same CR it has a higher caster level, and Tome Dragons only start to beat it in CL once they are exceeding it noticably in Challenge Rating.

(A CR 20 Steel dragon is CL 19 and Ancient,
whereas a CR 20 Tome Dragon is CL 17, and Old.)

Closet_Skeleton
2009-12-26, 09:02 PM
the Steel Dragon is good, but like the Purple Dragon and the Hex Dragon, it maxes out at CL 21.

It maxes out from age advancement, but it can still take sorcerer levels to get it higher.

hamishspence
2009-12-27, 10:44 AM
true- but we are talking about unmodified dragons, rather than dragons with character levels, at the moment.