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Volos
2009-12-27, 01:24 AM
I was thinking of having an Evil Party campain on the side, but I wanted to make some interesting challenges for the PCs. Rather then having the stereotypical good-guys, I was thinking out of the box. Would a Vow of Poverty Drunken Master Monk be too epic for a party to handle at the same level? The AC boosting from vow of poverty, Dex, and Wis would make him impossible to hit. Not to mention the fact that having double the number of feats that the PCs would (half being exhalted... but still, that would make him destructive to an evil party). What do you guys think?

Optimystik
2009-12-27, 01:45 AM
Can the Evil party fly?

How will the VoP monk possess the alcohol he needs for DM without breaking his vow?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 01:47 AM
Is his offense effective?

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 01:50 AM
Won't matter. It's a monk vs. all humanoids, unless they have a druid. Get henchmen. Disarm PCs. Have henchmen run off in multiple directions with their precious magic weapons, wands, spell component pouches, holy symbols, etc. PCs will be trying to kill him regardless of his defense. Then trip a little and/or go into stunning fist + direct damage for the long long fight to come.

Touchy
2009-12-27, 01:51 AM
Can the Evil party fly?

How will the VoP monk possess the alcohol he needs for DM without breaking his vow?

It's fairly simple, another party member buys it for him.
Or he just takes it, he's still in poverty, he just didn't pay for it.

Edit: I just reread it, assuming someone else buys the poor, drunken man a drink?:smallconfused:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 01:53 AM
It's fairly simple, another party member buys it for him.
Or he just takes it, he's still in poverty, he just didn't pay for it.
I don't think so, Tim.

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 01:58 AM
I forget the specifics of the vow. Can't he just drink cheap moonshine?

Faleldir
2009-12-27, 02:12 AM
He can if it's a spell component.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:13 AM
It is for False Life.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-27, 02:16 AM
Also, think about giving him Touch of Golden Ice. So awesome. Makes your skin poisonous to evil-doers:smallamused:

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:17 AM
What if you make him a dwarf. Then wouldn't ale fall under a required food for survival?

Demons_eye
2009-12-27, 02:17 AM
Have him take leadership and get a Janni to cast create food and water only its wine.

Rixx
2009-12-27, 02:34 AM
If you're the DM, then it's not an issue of whether the rules allow it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:43 AM
If the President does it, it's not illegal!

Optimystik
2009-12-27, 02:50 AM
If the President does it, it's not illegal!

More like "dealer wins all draws" :smalltongue:

False Life seems like a no-go; the alcohol will either be too little to make him drunk, or too much to have negligible cost. Unless he intentionally fails his fort save? But is it a Con check instead? If so, can you intentionally fail those too?

Kurald Galain
2009-12-27, 04:34 AM
Would a Vow of Poverty Drunken Master Monk be too epic for a party to handle at the same level?
At the same level?

Do you mean that this monk is going to be the same level as the party of PCs? Because then he's going down fast, first because it's one guy against a party, and second, well, because he's a monk.



Get henchmen. Disarm PCs. Have henchmen run off in multiple directions with their precious magic weapons, wands, spell component pouches, holy symbols, etc.
Unless you wish to evoke DM fiat on it, not all characters are easily affected by being disarmed or having their holy symbol sundered. For instance, a simple ward like Mirror Image, or having a seconary symbol on your body, would render this strategy unfeasible.

Furthermore, not all characters are depowered much without their weapon or spell components. This depends on class and build, of course, but e.g. a warlock doesn't even have components to steal.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-27, 04:55 AM
Can the Evil party fly?

This right here is kind of important.

lord_khaine
2009-12-27, 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimystik
Can the Evil party fly?

This right here is kind of important.

Not so important as you think, the DM just have to set the encounter indoor.

as for the moonshine, cant he just brew it himself?

Optimystik
2009-12-27, 05:37 AM
Not so important as you think, the DM just have to set the encounter indoor.

The DM will need a rather low ceiling even so, since our friend can't use any reach weapons besides the longspear, with which he isn't proficient.


as for the moonshine, cant he just brew it himself?

Unless he brews it out of toenail clippings and dreams, he'll probably break the vow collecting the materials and apparatus to distill anything.

Coidzor
2009-12-27, 05:39 AM
Not so important as you think, the DM just have to set the encounter indoor.

as for the moonshine, cant he just brew it himself?

Then that gets into the cost of the still and fuel and food for the mash and yeast, wouldn't it?

Noble Savant
2009-12-27, 05:42 AM
He lives in an abandoned wine distillery or some such thing. Large amount of booze ripe for the quaffing.

Optimystik
2009-12-27, 05:51 AM
He lives in an abandoned wine distillery or some such thing. Large amount of booze ripe for the quaffing.

Taking the entire distillery with him to ambush the PCs may be a problem.
Whereas taking a cask, even merely borrowing one, breaks the Vow.

Drunken Master/VoP is not the most stellar combination out there. Maybe Tattooed Monk?

lord_khaine
2009-12-27, 05:54 AM
The DM will need a rather low ceiling even so, since our friend can't use any reach weapons besides the longspear, with which he isn't proficient.


Anything with a normal celling will be enough, and for that matter, unless everyone is flying it doesnt really matter anyway.

Also, there proficiency in longspear is only a feat/dip away, and there are even a feat that allows him to flurry with a longspear in the eberon books.


Unless he brews it out of toenail clippings and dreams, he'll probably break the vow collecting the materials and apparatus to distill anything.

Alternatively he could just brew it out of old potatoes or sugarcane, whatever grows localy, and if he doesnt destil it production could be kept cheap enough.

olentu
2009-12-27, 05:59 AM
Hmm does vow of poverty allow one to own food, as I can not recall at the moment.

Edit: Ok so only one days worth of food at the most.

Bayar
2009-12-27, 06:03 AM
If the President does it, it's not illegal!

Meh, just "Rule 0" it.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-27, 06:15 AM
Hmm does vow of poverty allow one to own food, as I can not recall at the moment.

Edit: Ok so only one days worth of food at the most.

Does that extend to liquids? Because, I mean, it just says food. Food in a simple sack or bag, even, which don't sound like they'd be too good at transporting alcohol anyway.

But whatever, it's not like we're already breaking the spirit of the rules anyway.

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-27, 06:30 AM
I was thinking of having an Evil Party campain on the side, but I wanted to make some interesting challenges for the PCs. Rather then having the stereotypical good-guys, I was thinking out of the box. Would a Vow of Poverty Drunken Master Monk be too epic for a party to handle at the same level? The AC boosting from vow of poverty, Dex, and Wis would make him impossible to hit. Not to mention the fact that having double the number of feats that the PCs would (half being exhalted... but still, that would make him destructive to an evil party). What do you guys think?

In summary:

D&D Monks are weak, for many reasons I'm sure will be discussed at length again as soon as you ask why. There are many, many threads on this subject. GitP forums get them on at least a weekly basis.

Vow of Poverty is not as useful or powerful as all the magic items you give up. Not hardly, considering that there are only so many useful exalted feats, and almost everything else VoP gives you has a better purchased item equivalent. And there's a lot VoP doesn't give you, especially flight and utility. Granted, it's slightly more useful to NPCs, since they don't usually have the gear PCs do.

Drunken Master is a fun PrC to play, but it's nothing anyone would considered overpowered at all. It's like monk: it lacks synergy with itself. e.g. Improvised weapons means you don't get to use your unarmed damage table. You're really great at not being hit in melee, but that just means you'll be attacked with Will saves (Drunkness lowers Wisdom), area (i.e. solid fog) and touch attack spells instead. Or just someone tossing a couple tanglefoot bags to pin the VoP DM Monk down as everyone else in the evil party positions themselves and attacks. It doesn't have to be complicated to be effective against a monk.

lord_khaine
2009-12-27, 08:47 AM
D&D Monks are weak, for many reasons I'm sure will be discussed at length again as soon as you ask why. There are many, many threads on this subject. GitP forums get them on at least a weekly basis

Weak in offence, they can still make for a opponent thats really hard to get rid off.


Vow of Poverty is not as useful or powerful as all the magic items you give up. Not hardly, considering that there are only so many useful exalted feats, and almost everything else VoP gives you has a better purchased item equivalent. And there's a lot VoP doesn't give you, especially flight and utility. Granted, it's slightly more useful to NPCs, since they don't usually have the gear PCs do.


This isnt quite true, you will normaly miss some important items as a PC, like flight or the ability to see invisible opponents, but again for a npc it can be really good, especaly one thats going up against evil people.


Drunken Master is a fun PrC to play, but it's nothing anyone would considered overpowered at all. It's like monk: it lacks synergy with itself. e.g. Improvised weapons means you don't get to use your unarmed damage table. You're really great at not being hit in melee, but that just means you'll be attacked with Will saves (Drunkness lowers Wisdom), area (i.e. solid fog) and touch attack spells instead. Or just someone tossing a couple tanglefoot bags to pin the VoP DM Monk down as everyone else in the evil party positions themselves and attacks. It doesn't have to be complicated to be effective against a monk.

I agree on this, drunken master is fun, but not really that powerfull, though i dont think he will have problems with making the safe for the tanglefoor bag, and he will have a decent chance of dodging it.
Also, as far as i can see Deflect arrow would defend against the first bag.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-27, 12:42 PM
Weak in offence, they can still make for a opponent thats really hard to get rid off.
Yes, primarily by running away really really fast. How's that for a BBEG - he's invincible because he sprints for the horizon as soon as he lays eyes on you!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-27, 01:37 PM
I'd say it could work out, just without Drunken Master. I'd go with a spellcaster/monk hybrid, such as Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist/Master of the East Wind. Even Psionic Fist would be better than no spellcasting at all. He would absolutely have to be at least 2-3 levels higher than the PCs to be a credible threat, especially in the later levels. It really depends on what level(s) you plan on having them encounter him at.

I'd probably go with a Cha-based Ascetic Mage build. Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf) 10 is playable at 6th+ level, and you can get all kinds of good Sorcerer buffs. Buffs to use would include the entire Heart of- line of spells in Complete Mage, especially Heart of Water, and Ray Deflection from Spell Compendium. You'll need at least 4th level spells, and at least two known at that, for the buffs to really come into play. Without Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake shenanigans, he could be as low as Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 1, or skip the MotEW level if you go Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

I'd probably use Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) with the Heart aspect and Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Make him the above level 11 build the first time they encounter him at around level 8, and make him level 13 the next time they meet him and give him the spells Blinding Breath and Heart of Earth. He really would be much better off without VoP, because just a simple Circlet of Rapid Casting will allow him to throw out a Quickened Glitterdust or Web along with an entangling breath or a flurry with a touch spell to get the upper hand early on. Maybe give him something mechanically similar to VoP without the restrictions, but only give him partial items and then only utility type items like that one. Eternal Wands would be extremely useful for him since he would have such a limited selection of spells known.

A BBEG that doesn't have any spellcasting cannot be enough of a threat/challenge to be called a BBEG in most cases. There's always a spellcaster or otherwise powerful/mystical bossguy, and a limited combatant like a Monk would never be anything more than a henchman of said bossguy. Give this guy spellcasting, mostly just for buffs and to mix up his opponents' capabilities rather than doing damage, and he'd definitely be a suitable challenge for a group of evil PCs.

MickJay
2009-12-27, 02:46 PM
The Monk's drinking cheap wine or beer/ale, like everyone else, to avoid getting diarrhoea from drinking unboiled water. If medieval monks, who actually swore oaths of poverty, could do it, why couldn't your monk do the same? :smallwink: Stronger liquors would still be problematic, unless they'd be of such low quality as to be poisonous...

lord_khaine
2009-12-27, 02:59 PM
Yes, primarily by running away really really fast. How's that for a BBEG - he's invincible because he sprints for the horizon as soon as he lays eyes on you!


Its sad if thats the only thing you can think off.

Aquillion
2009-12-27, 05:42 PM
D&D Monks are weak, for many reasons I'm sure will be discussed at length again as soon as you ask why. There are many, many threads on this subject. GitP forums get them on at least a weekly basis.They are weak PC classes. They make decent NPC bosses; their good saves help keep them from getting instantly splattered, and they tend to be very easy to design because there's so few choices involved.

However, part of the reason they make good bosses is because you can also just buff up their level until they're a threat to the party -- nothing is underpowered in the hands of a DM. Don't just have one monk at the same level as the party fight them; even if they weren't underpowered, they would still suck by virtue of being outnumbered. Make the monk several levels higher.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-27, 05:48 PM
VoP doesn't work for monk. You're gimping your BBEG. If he's going to have even a decent chance he'll need to be at least 2 levels above party average and have no less than 2 minions of the party's level along for the fight. One V many doesn't go so well for D&D characters, no matter how much stronger they are. I like the monk as much as anybody, but you really, really need to drop VoP, get exalted feats if you want, but for pete's sake don't get VoP.

Origomar
2009-12-27, 05:52 PM
you could just make the situation give advantages to the monk/drunken master. aka make the encounter fight in a city where its very difficult to posses weapons,(or atleast big ones) or have it be like in the middle ages where clean water is very rare and people drink alchohal for liquids instead. ect.

J.Gellert
2009-12-27, 05:58 PM
Just give him +3 levels over the party, and a big bunch of pre-buffing. Monks love buffs.

On second thought, do that +4 levels.

And cheat on his HP rolls.:smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-27, 09:43 PM
Lose Drunken Master. Your best bet is assuming the Monk will lose. His caster-specific defenses actually work well against the party, since he'll probably be a couple levels higher, but meleers will eat him alive. He will have decent AC, but too low HP to survive more than a couple rounds, especially since all the casters are doing is super-buffing the Rogue and Fighter. Instead, plan for the opponent to be awesome. Have him snag Snap Kick, INA, and Superior Unarmed Strike. Then have him grab Barb 1 for Pounce. So the combat opens with him charging the party making 6 attacks for fairly high damage, each one requiring a Fort save. Then he sits back and waits for retaliation. Yes, he's dead in 2 rounds, but they're 2 rounds when the party is convinced they're about to die.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 09:51 PM
Its sad if thats the only thing you can think off.

Please show us the proper way of thinking.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-28, 06:16 AM
In summary:
D&D Monks are weak, for many reasons I'm sure will be discussed at length again as soon as you ask why. There are many, many threads on this subject. GitP forums get them on at least a weekly basis.


I'd rather put it this way: the reason for a weekly monk thread is not because such threads are only about regularly showing the many (alleged) weaknesses of a monk, but rather because there is so much controversy about it.

Anyhow, for the OP:


I was thinking of having an Evil Party campain on the side, but I wanted to make some interesting challenges for the PCs. Rather then having the stereotypical good-guys, I was thinking out of the box. Would a Vow of Poverty Drunken Master Monk be too epic for a party to handle at the same level? The AC boosting from vow of poverty, Dex, and Wis would make him impossible to hit. Not to mention the fact that having double the number of feats that the PCs would (half being exhalted... but still, that would make him destructive to an evil party). What do you guys think?

Some first comments:
- this is an excellent idea.
A drunken master monk with VoP as a BNGG (big nice good guy) can be easily introduced as an innocent-appearing drunkard in a bar brawl. The surprise will be on his side and even good opportunity for monk hit-and-run-tactics.
- VoP is a good idea for an npc, since VoP benefits roughly equal a (albeit predetermined) wbl for a pc, but exceed the benefits of items for npcs (however, this makes the BNGG also more powerful than his level would suggest). Also, as you said, many VoP benefits target an evil pc specifically. And iirc you can own up to 1gp as items with a VoP, so drinks should be fine.
- the question whether this BNGG would be too tough for the party to handle follows roughly the CR guidelines (challenging but OK if the same level, lethal with several levels higher), adjusted by the amount of maxing fu and non-core material you pure into this monk.

What level is the party? I can post an npc monk build suggestion for this purpose.

- Giacomo

Optimystik
2009-12-28, 06:51 AM
And iirc you can own up to 1gp as items with a VoP, so drinks should be fine.

The Vow states no such thing. It bars all material possessions with very specific exceptions, and says nothing about a 1gp or less allowance.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-28, 07:04 AM
The Vow states no such thing. It bars all material possessions with very specific exceptions, and says nothing about a 1gp or less allowance.

Could you provide a quote? As far as I recall, the VoP allows carrying and using simple weapons that cost far more than a cask of ale. Also, a VoP character can drink magic potions offered by fellow pcs and such - so I do not think that getting a drink should be a problem for a VoP monk.

- Giacomo

Optimystik
2009-12-28, 07:18 AM
Could you provide a quote? As far as I recall, the VoP allows carrying and using simple weapons that cost far more than a cask of ale. Also, a VoP character can drink magic potions offered by fellow pcs and such - so I do not think that getting a drink should be a problem for a VoP monk.

- Giacomo

The cost of the weapons has nothing to do with VoP. They are merely a specific exception. "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions." It then goes on to list them (all items nonmagical and nonmasterwork):

- Ordinary simple weapons
- Simple clothes
- Enough food to sustain you for one day in a sack or bag.
- Spell component pouch

As alcohol is not required "to sustain you" it does not fall under the vow. And given all of BoED's finger-wagging toward booze anyway, I doubt RAI was allowing for drunken ascetics either.

As for potions from friends, the vow states you can "benefit from magic items used on your behalf." Booze isn't magical.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-28, 07:26 AM
In that case, the VoP drunken master should still be possible due to

- anyone can buy that crazy man a drink (say, the inn owner who knows about the powers of that old man and that he can chase away troublemakers)
- in medieval times, hardly anyone drank water, but rather ale (to avoid stale water). Alcohol was part of daily food.

And if you talk about RAI, I do not think that a vow of poverty that allows (even cheap) spell components, use of consumable magic items and simple weapons that can cost several gold pieces should obstruct the use/possession of alcoholic beverages that cost a few silver or copper even.
Wether alcohol is frowned upon/incompatible with exaltedness depends on the kind of good deity/religion/belief this monk adheres to.

- Giacomo

Optimystik
2009-12-28, 07:31 AM
In that case, the VoP drunken master should still be possible due to

- anyone can buy that crazy man a drink (say, the inn owner who knows about the powers of that old man and that he can chase away troublemakers)

You cannot even use, not merely own, items not covered under the exceptions.


- in medieval times, hardly anyone drank water, but rather ale (to avoid stale water). Alcohol was part of daily food.

For all their similarities, D&D does not take place in medieval times. BoED in particular is a book that highlights the differences quite starkly.


And if you talk about RAI, I do not think that a vow of poverty that allows (even cheap) spell components, use of consumable magic items and simple weapons that can cost several gold pieces should obstruct the use/possession of alcoholic beverages that cost a few silver or copper even.

Beverages, yes - alcohol, no.
I appreciate the amusement factor of a hammered ascetic, but it's still a bit of an oxymoron.


Wether alcohol is frowned upon/incompatible with exaltedness depends on the kind of good deity/religion/belief this monk adheres to.

Exalted feats are not tied to any particular deity, religion or belief. They are the platinum standard of purity.

It's perfectly possible for his monk to be an LG Drunken Master that gets sloshed off his gourd before kiboshing the forces of Evil - but bringing Exalted feats into it is where his footing becomes uneven.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-28, 07:54 AM
Exalted feats are not tied to any particular deity, religion or belief. They are the platinum standard of purity.

It's perfectly possible for his monk to be an LG Drunken Master that gets sloshed off his gourd before kiboshing the forces of Evil - but bringing Exalted feats into it is where his footing becomes uneven.

Hm. I see your point here - if it were for a player character. But I think in this case it could be OK for LordWolfgang's world. He's looking for interesting opponents of an evil pc group - and that BNGG would certainly be one.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2009-12-28, 07:59 AM
you could just make the situation give advantages to the monk/drunken master.
The dwarven city of Thrakgnarg has a lake of beer that is used for recreation and quaffing. Simply move the fight there, make sure the mon has better swimming skills than most of the party, and throw in some Pretzel Elementals for support.


So the combat opens with him charging the party making 6 attacks for fairly high damage, each one requiring a Fort save.
You may attempt a stunning attack ... no more than once per round. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist)

Optimystik
2009-12-28, 08:08 AM
Hm. I see your point here - if it were for a player character. But I think in this case it could be OK for LordWolfgang's world. He's looking for interesting opponents of an evil pc group - and that BNGG would certainly be one.

- Giacomo

Well, naturally as the DM he can rule zero any advantages he wants for his paragon of Jack Daniels Justice. My advice is simply that Drunken Masters and Exalted characters don't mix; it's his choice to heed me or not.

Should he follow your advice instead however, just warn him about flying dice.

Killer Angel
2009-12-28, 08:28 AM
My advice is simply that Drunken Masters and Exalted characters don't mix;

He could try to justify the thing, saying that he was inspired by "The legend of the holy drinker"... :smalltongue:

J.Gellert
2009-12-28, 08:30 AM
He could try to justify the thing, saying that he was inspired by "The legend of the holy drinker"... :smalltongue:

Or... he could "get drunk on the intoxicating aroma of doing a good deed for someone else". :smalltongue:

SparkMandriller
2009-12-28, 08:34 AM
Hm. I see your point here - if it were for a player character. But I think in this case it could be OK for LordWolfgang's world. He's looking for interesting opponents of an evil pc group - and that BNGG would certainly be one.

So you posted just to remind people that the DM is allowed to houserule things?

Real helpful, dude.

Volos
2009-12-28, 09:02 PM
I just found an interesting item for his henchmen. It's a item that makes anyone who drinks it explode for 10d6 in a small radius burst when they go below -10 HP. Have 5-10 weak ass minions glomp the party and blow up. Suicide bombers.

Then the Monk attacks.

Draz74
2009-12-28, 11:03 PM
You may attempt a stunning attack ... no more than once per round. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist)

Who said anything about Stunning? Touch of Golden Ice!

awa
2009-12-28, 11:33 PM
since it seems theirs more or less consensus that the monk wont be to powerful for the party to fight may i suggest way to increase the difficulty of the fight that don't rely on suicide bombers.

Reliable cover/ concealment like a forest or a smoke filled room where all a stealth charecter needs to do is move to find room to hide a monk with his high speed and spring attack who has a good hide/ move silent compared to the parties sensory abbilities can be a hard opponent to fight becuase he just sneaks up attacks falls back and then hides again. with the drunken master he can pick up random stuff to throw if melee characters try to ready actions against him.

Rough terrain that requires balance checks to fight effectively on hurts charging builds a lot but a monk with tumble and balance as class skills should be able to function fine.

Some kind of time limit on the pcs part play greatly to the fact that a monk is largely defense based one of the monks great weakness is that he cant put out reliable damage (or other fight ending abbilities) like other classes if all the monk needs to do is survive for the pcs to lose that's strongly in his favor.

Finally an ambush a drunken master may looks extremely non threatening and might very well be able to get within five feet of the wizard if there in a town (with out knowing more about your evil party ill assume they enter towns) once there a full flurry on the wizard with his golden ice touch and maybe a stunning fist before the wizards gets his defensive spells up may very well drop the wizard ( or really any full caster with low fort and flat footed ac) out of the fight. Now before pepole start yelling at me i know Schrodinger wizard will never let any one take a swing at him and will never be caught off guard by any one becuase hes caste a million divination and never lets any one with in 20 feet and blah blah blah but i find in general pcs are not that prepared and if yours is then nothing i advise will help a monk in any way

Pluto
2009-12-29, 12:19 AM
I don't think this is such a bad idea:

NPCs don't play by standard character wealth rules. Comparing the benefits of the Vow to the benefits of appriate WBL isn't accurate. Comparing the benefits of the Vow to the benefits of the 2-3 magic items you'd otherwise give the party through this encounter is.

carnivore's VoP idea can actually apply here. Throw a bunch of Grafts/permanent ability boosts on the Monk and take VoP as his last feat. You can approximate WBL's benefits and toss in VoP's boosts as well. Typically this doesn't work well for party members (before they get VoP, they're spending their wealth on overly expensive grafts instead of relatively inexpensive magic items; as soon as they take it, they come out a little bit ahead; a few levels after they take VoP, they fall back behind full wealth characters in terms of optimization).

BBEGs don't need to fight. BBEGs just need to survive. Lex Luther has nothing on Superman in a straight fight, but his plots do. He repeatedly organizes scenarios where Superman only just survives.
VoP helps this aspect of the BBGG. It might not give the guy a prayer of beating the party in a straight fight (his offensive abilities approach zero), but it lets him get away to oppose the party in new ways.

...

Drunken Master isn't such a good idea though. It doesn't really work fluffwise or mechanically (it weakens the Monk's defense without adding anything useful).

If you want the guy to oppose the party in a straight fight, he needs to cast or manifest.
Monk 2/[Any 3/4 BA Wisdom-based Caster] would work even without prestige classes. Sacred Fist is probably a good idea, though.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-29, 12:30 AM
BBEGs don't need to fight. BBEGs just need to survive. Lex Luther has nothing on Superman in a straight fight, but his plots do. He repeatedly organizes scenarios where Superman only just survives.
VoP helps this aspect of the BBGG. It might not give the guy a prayer of beating the party in a straight fight (his offensive abilities approach zero), but it lets him get away to oppose the party in new ways..

What does VoP offer that helps the character oppose the party out of combat?

deuxhero
2009-12-29, 12:35 AM
Short:No.
Long:HAHAHAHA.

Seriously there is no reason to take more than... 2 levels in monk (and almost never without taking a UA fighting style variant for feats that acctually work with each other), even talafeatICan'tspell/psy warrior 18 (the feat makes a single psionic class count as monk for some it's bonus abilities) only takes 2 monk levels.

Pluto
2009-12-29, 12:36 AM
What does VoP offer that helps the character oppose the party out of combat?

Nothing, but how does that matter?

edit:
VoP will probably do more to ensure the Monk's survival for a second scheme than the couple trinkets a DM would typically give a party in a single fight. Off-screen, an NPCs abilities don't really matter. A certain degree of manipulative abilities (via intimidation, diplomacy, bribery, whatever) can achieve most goals.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-29, 12:42 AM
It just seemed that you were advocating the Monk be cunning like Lex Luthor, but that doesn't really involve VoP at all, so I was wondering if I had misinterpreted what you had written.

Killer Angel
2009-12-29, 03:30 AM
It just seemed that you were advocating the Monk be cunning like Lex Luthor

They're both bald? :smallbiggrin: