V's Age

[Lord Thurlvin]

I guess this is technically a spoiler, but it isn't that much of one, so I'll just let this warning suffice.

In the PC prequel book, V's application states her age as 103. Since she's a high elf, This means she's seven years younger than her race's age of maturity, "maturity" here meaning the equivalent of a 15 year old human. I'm guessing Rich has just decided to ignore the stuff in the PHB that has to do with age, which is well within his right as a parody author.
I don't really know what the point of this is, other than to point something out that I just noticed. It has probably already been brought up, but I'll take a chance and hope for five seconds of fame being noticed.

[Temotei]

I guess this is technically a spoiler, but it isn't that much of one, so I'll just let this warning suffice.

In the PC prequel book, V's application states her age as 103. Since she's a high elf, This means she's seven years younger than her race's age of maturity, "maturity" here meaning the equivalent of a 15 year old human. I'm guessing Rich has just decided to ignore the stuff in the PHB that has to do with age, which is well within his right as a parody author.
I don't really know what the point of this is, other than to point something out that I just noticed. It has probably already been brought up, but I'll take a chance and hope for five seconds of fame being noticed.

It took me fifteen to twenty seconds to read this, but I still haven't looked at your name. Oh. There it is. :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

The "110 years old" on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age) measures cultural adulthood, not mental adulthood. V being younger than that doesn't mean anything, as he is not in an elven settlement at the time.

Races of the Wild elaborates further: "An elf reaches physical and mental maturity at the age of 25."

[zql]

so, culturaly, s/he married really young

[Pyron]

Races of the Wild elaborates further: "An elf reaches physical and mental maturity at the age of 25."

Does that mean all physically and mentally mature elven adults attend kindergarten (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html). :smallsmile:

But, back to the OP, I agree Rich really doesn't really follow the PHB age tables all to closely.

[Conuly]

Races of the Wild elaborates further: "An elf reaches physical and mental maturity at the age of 25."

Back in the aforementioned prequel, we're told that one of the disadvantages to being an elf is spending 20 years in diapers. I find it hard to believe that almost-adult elves are still incontinent... and if so, let me just say EW!

[factotum]

I believe the Giant has gone on record as saying that the age listing of 103 for V was a mistake on his behalf, and that V is actually more like 130.

[awibs]

even if the 103 wasn't a mistake, the difference between 103 and 110 for an elf is probably akin to the difference between 17 and 18 for a human - still not technically able to sign paperwork for yourself, but somewhat negligible in terms of actual, functional maturity,

[Lira]

I believe the Giant has gone on record as saying that the age listing of 103 for V was a mistake on his behalf, and that V is actually more like 130.Really? Where? Because while I do think that's the case, I've never come across him saying that. I do distinctly remember a thread where someone had brought up the issue of V's age, and how in Origins V says it's 103, and in No Cure the character page says 130. He said something along the lines of "Haven't you ever met anyone who lied about their age?". So I suppose the implication is that 130 is V's real age.

[megabyter5]

Wait, V lied about it's age?! Finally! The gender has been revealed! Beyond a shadow of a doubt, this means Vaarsuvius is female! PARTY TIME!!

:smalltongue:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

V’s character card in the Order of the Stick Adventure Game also lists an age of 103. If this is a typo, it’s a typo that propagated. Otherwise, just another example of Rich not being a total slave to the rules.

[awibs]

Really? Where? Because while I do think that's the case, I've never come across him saying that. I do distinctly remember a thread where someone had brought up the issue of V's age, and how in Origins V says it's 103, and in No Cure the character page says 130. He said something along the lines of "Haven't you ever met anyone who lied about their age?". So I suppose the implication is that 130 is V's real age.


If 103 is slightly under the age of majority and 130 is just above it, wouldn't it make more sense to lie about being older? Arbitrarily equating 110 elf years to 18 human, that puts 6.11 elf years to a human year - making "20 years in diapers" equivalent to 3.27 human years (perfectly reasonable age to complete potty training), 103 equivalent to 16.85 and 130 to 21.27. I find it much more likely that a 16, almost 17 year old type character would lie about being 21 than the reverse.

[Optimystik]

My point is, the 110 does not mean "all elves, without variation, begin adventuring at this exact point in their lives or later."

V being 103, or 130, or anything in between, means absolutely nothing.

[Pyron]

My point is, the 110 does not mean "all elves, without variation, begin adventuring at this exact point in their lives or later."

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age) disagrees.



You can choose or randomly generate your character’s age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character’s race and class (see Table: Random Starting Ages).


See. It's clearly states that elven wizards must be at least 120 years old (110 + the minimum of 10d6). That's when they begin adventuring.

[Asta Kask]

See. It's clearly states that elven wizards must be at least 120 years old (110 + the minimum of 10d6). That's when they begin adventuring.

However, rule 0 can override this easily. And clearly does so in the stickverse.

[hamishspence]

Races of the Wild (which, admittedly, has a very early elven maturity date) also points out the 110 year age is a general guideline, not a hard and fast rule, and that some elves go out adventuring much younger.

Given that drow have the same aging tables, and Drizzt is only 70 and a high level character, it's not that surprising that the starting age would be a guideline only.

[Optimystik]

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age) disagrees.

See. It's clearly states that elven wizards must be at least 120 years old (110 + the minimum of 10d6). That's when they begin adventuring.

Races of the Wild trumps this entry.

"Table 6-4 of the Player's Handbook suggests that elves don’t reach their full physical growth until an age of 110, at a minimum. That’s not entirely accurate. The random starting age for elves is simply the age at which many elf adventurers feel ready to leave their forests and roam the world outside for a time. More than a few elves have commenced their adventuring careers at much younger ages."

Cue specific trumps general, the primary source rule etc.

[Pyron]

Races of the Wild trumps this entry.

Cue specific trumps general, the primary source rule etc.


Races of the Wild is a rules supplement for the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game.

Note: Supplement. In other words, it's what we call variants. It is not needed to play the game. The Player's Handbook on the other hand... well, do I need to spell it out?

Primary Source Rule: Player's Handbook.

The only thing that can trump the PHB (or SRD) is rule zero. But rule zero only means the rules being changed vary from DM or campaign. It does not invalidate the SRD.

[hamishspence]

Just because something is "not needed to play the game", does not make its info "less accurate".

PHB provides general rules, sourcebooks provide more detailed, more accurate for the setting, ones.

[Pyron]

Just because something is "not needed to play the game", does not make its info "less accurate".

I never said it was 'less accurate'. I said it's 'optional'.


PHB provides general rules, sourcebooks provide more detailed, more accurate for the setting, ones.

Yes, supplements provide more details for the setting. But not every D&D campaign uses the same setting. The Order of the Stick clearly does not use what's in Race of the Wild. Thus proving that these supplements are optional. Like I said, it's essentially rule zero.

Just because you decide to incorporate the information in a supplement (like RotW) does not mean the fluff in the PHB is invalidated in other settings.

[hamishspence]

The Order of the Stick clearly does not use what's in Race of the Wild.

I suppose V's "Thirty years in diapers" comment from Origin might qualify as saying this.

However the 103 year age in some OOTS sources may suggest it doesn't use the PHB as written either.

[Pyron]

I suppose V's "Thirty years in diapers" comment from Origin might qualify as saying this.

Not to mention V's children being in kindergarten at the age of 26.


However the 103 year age in some OOTS sources may suggest it doesn't use the PHB as written either.

I agree, for reasons of Rule Zero. Not because 'Race of the Wild' says so. Although, it makes you wonder why the Giant changed V's age in 'No Cure for the Paladin Blues' (I'm assuming, because I don't have that book).

[Optimystik]

Note: Supplement. In other words, it's what we call variants. It is not needed to play the game. The Player's Handbook on the other hand... well, do I need to spell it out?

Primary Source Rule: Player's Handbook.

Races of the Wild is... hmm, do I need to spell it out?

"It is primarily a player resource focusing on new options and expanded rules for D&D players whose characters are elves or halflings."

"Races of the Wild opens with a deep look at the culture, traditions, and beliefs of elves."

Your argument is like saying the Monster Manual is a more primary source for undead behavior than Libris Mortis, just because it's core. Hint: It isn't.


The only thing that can trump the PHB (or SRD) is rule zero. But rule zero only means the rules being changed vary from DM or campaign. It does not invalidate the SRD.

No, core supplies the general rules. The supplements get more specific. Just because you can play a game using only general rules, does not invalidate the specific ones.

Also, last time I checked, WotC published both the PHB and RotW. Shocking, I know.

[Kish]

Between the "20 years in diapers" and the "Vaarsuvius' kindergarten-aged children are 26," I'd say elves in OotS clearly don't reach physical or mental maturity until some time after age 25. Not in D&D, but in OotS.

[Optimystik]

Between the "20 years in diapers" and the "Vaarsuvius' kindergarten-aged children are 26," I'd say elves in OotS clearly don't reach physical or mental maturity until some time after age 25. Not in D&D, but in OotS.

I'm fine with HisElvesAreDifferent, but the claim that the Giant somehow disregarded D&D rules to have V adventuring at 103 still holds no water. Nor does the claim that RotW is somehow not applicable to elves because it isn't core make sense either.

[Lord Thurlvin]

Don't you just love it when one of your random observations sparks an argument? I'm really confused now as to what age corresponds to what level of maturity for an elf, both in OoTS and the "core" D&D world.

[Pyron]

Don't you just love it when one of your random observations sparks an argument? I'm really confused now as to what age corresponds to what level of maturity for an elf, both in OoTS and the "core" D&D world.

The real answer varies from campaign.

In the Stick-verse. Elves can spend 20 years in diapers, attend kindergarten at age 26, and consider an adventuring adult at 103 (at most). We can only make observations.

(More origins spoilers)
They can cast some spells as early as 43 when they still are apparently children. As noted when V's tries to cast magic on the broom in Origins, but I'm not sure what age V might be in human years
The SRD (if the campaign decides to adhere to those guidelines to the letter) suggest that elves reach adulthood at 110.

Races of the Wild (again, if the campaign decides to use the supplement) suggest that it can be as early as 25,

Finally, some homebrew campaign could throw all this out and decide that elves can live no more than 25 years years and they become adults at the age of 3.

[Optimystik]

That was my point from the beginning - the SRD's guideline is a suggestion - nothing more, nothing less.

7 years difference after a century of life just isn't that big a deal.

[derfenrirwolv]

V is not an elf

V is a HIGH ELF, a race which may differ from the standard elf in the PHB on some minor characteristics, such as height, weight, and starting age.

[denthor]

There is one thing everybody is overlooking is SoD(Start of Darkness) our Lich Xykon was a lad entering Puberty 103 years ago and cast his first create undead spell.

Our esteemed author is saying in the same year an elf that would affect the world was born.

[Lord Thurlvin]

V is not an elf

V is a HIGH ELF, a race which may differ from the standard elf in the PHB on some minor characteristics, such as height, weight, and starting age.

The Monster Manual says the elf race laid out in the PHB is (are?) the high elves.

[eggynack]

It's worth note that War and Xps lists V's age as "130?",

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It's worth note that War and Xps lists V's age as "130?",
With the question mark? What’s the context? The question mark makes the statement rather non-commital.

[Asta Kask]

V is a HIGH ELF

Do high elves smoke a lot of pot? And would that explain why they forget how old they are?

[awibs]

The Monster Manual says the elf race laid out in the PHB is (are?) the high elves.

I could also be difficult and say that V is not a high elf, because his entry lies between "elemental" and "ethereal filcher." :P

I, for the record, do not actually care to argue whether V is an elf or a high elf, or if there is a difference in OOTS-verse. But, ya know, since this is a forum on the internet, lets play devil's nitpicker and say that I'm pretty damn sure that if high elves are different as opposed to a mere subtype of elf, they would be listed under H and not E.

[SaintRidley]

I could also be difficult and say that V is not a high elf, because his entry lies between "elemental" and "ethereal filcher." :P

I, for the record, do not actually care to argue whether V is an elf or a high elf, or if there is a difference in OOTS-verse. But, ya know, since this is a forum on the internet, lets play devil's nitpicker and say that I'm pretty damn sure that if high elves are different as opposed to a mere subtype of elf, they would be listed under H and not E.

High elves are a mere subtype of elf. Simply the most common, and therefore considered the default elf.

It's not like Wood Elves or Aquatic Elves are listed under W or A instead of E. Half-Elves get listed under E, too.

[Optimystik]

I could also be difficult and say that V is not a high elf, because his entry lies between "elemental" and "ethereal filcher." :P

I, for the record, do not actually care to argue whether V is an elf or a high elf, or if there is a difference in OOTS-verse. But, ya know, since this is a forum on the internet, lets play devil's nitpicker and say that I'm pretty damn sure that if high elves are different as opposed to a mere subtype of elf, they would be listed under H and not E.

You're forgetting three scenarios:

1) They could be listed under "Elf, High."
2) They could be listed as "High Elf" in a subrace section under "Elf."
3) High Elves, being the most common type of Elf, are listed as "Elf," just as Shield Dwarves, the most common type of Dwarf, are listed as "Dwarf."
(The SRD does this one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm))

[eggynack]

With the question mark? What’s the context? The question mark makes the statement rather non-commital.

The context is the cast of characters at the beginning of the compilation book War and XPs, and the reason I used a question mark is because it is listed that way in the book itself (likely to denote the fact that Rich is unsure of V's precise age).

[factotum]

I think the information listed there is likely to be more accurate than the 103, though, since the only source for that is V's application form to join the Order in OtOoPCs, AFAIK.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I think the information listed there is likely to be more accurate than the 103, though, since the only source for that is V's application form to join the Order in OtOoPCs, AFAIK.
As I pointed out before, V’s age is also listed as 103 on his character card in the OotS Adventure Game.

That said, one could argue that since the 103 in OtOoPCs was actually stated in the actual story rather than an Out-of-Character character summary, OtOoPCs would be more official. Assuming, of course, V is not lying.

[veti]

No, core supplies the general rules. The supplements get more specific. Just because you can play a game using only general rules, does not invalidate the specific ones.

Also, last time I checked, WotC published both the PHB and RotW. Shocking, I know.

A "supplement" is something that contains rules/information that's not in the core material. It's not supposed to contain information that directly contradicts it. Someone at WotC dropped the ball there.

Or rather, a cynic might say, someone at WotC spotted the potential for yet more supplements to 'clarify' the confusion that might arise...

And so the GM has to invoke Rule 0 to say that "any or all of these sources may be wrong. My elves go through a larval stage, then spend 40 years in a cocoon before emerging as adults." What other choice do they have?

[Optimystik]

A "supplement" is something that contains rules/information that's not in the core material. It's not supposed to contain information that directly contradicts it. Someone at WotC dropped the ball there.

Or rather, a cynic might say, someone at WotC spotted the potential for yet more supplements to 'clarify' the confusion that might arise...

And so the GM has to invoke Rule 0 to say that "any or all of these sources may be wrong. My elves go through a larval stage, then spend 40 years in a cocoon before emerging as adults." What other choice do they have?

It's not a "direct contradiction." RotW never said the PHB was absolutely wrong. It merely points out that the age for elves in the PHB is a guideline - which it is. I don't see how following RotW's guideline is "invoking Rule 0."

The sidebar says the age in the PHB "is not entirely accurate." That's not the same as saying "The PHB is wrong!!!111!!one"