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Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:00 AM
Okay. I may be playing a Sorceror soon and was wondering how I could get more spells known. is there any way to do this or no?

also, I really just want one more second level spell so that I can boost all my ally's main stats. (I'm level 6 so I only get two known)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:03 AM
How cheesy do you want to get?

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:11 AM
Not too cheesy. I've built this guy to help my allies for the most part. Also to attempt to stay alive. Although I guess asking for more spells known is pretty dang cheesy.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:12 AM
Question the second: What are your two second level spells known?

Gorgondantess
2009-12-27, 02:13 AM
Mmmm, runestaves....:smallcool:
Other than that, I believe there's a feat that allows you to gain one spell known of a level 1 less than your max. Useful if your DM allows feat retraining.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:14 AM
bull's strength and fox's cunning. Bull's strength for the fighter and Monk and Fox's cunning for the Psion.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:15 AM
Mmmm, runestaves....:smallcool:
Other than that, I believe there's a feat that allows you to gain one spell known of a level 1 less than your max. Useful if your DM allows feat retraining.

Retraining is unnecesarry since this is a backup character anyway. Also, what are Runestaves/what book are they in?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:16 AM
Have you checked out Animalistic Strength from the SpC? +2 to Str, Dex, and Con.

Starscream
2009-12-27, 02:17 AM
There are a few good PrCs that give a bunch of new spells known. My favorite is Sand Shaper from the Sandstorm book.

Only offers 8/10 casting, however, but the class features are nice and even just taking a few levels will net you a nice bunch of new spells.

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:20 AM
For utility stuff you just pile on a bajillion scrolls. Otherwise just play with a wizard's general purpose list, except without any repeated spells. Guess what? Your spells known is slightly more than his spells prepared. Staffs are a great way to effectively get extra spells too.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:22 AM
Have you checked out Animalistic Strength from the SpC? +2 to Str, Dex, and Con.

nah. only got The SRD right now although I will have quite a few more books tomorrow and I'll look at that. @ starscream. I'll check sandshaper out when I get the chance too.

Then I'll call my Character "Gaara":smallamused:

Grumman
2009-12-27, 02:22 AM
Definitely use Sand Shaper. Even a Sorcerer 19 / Sand Shaper 1 has twice as many spells known as a Sorcerer 20. In addition, it lets you learn Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace as 1st level spells instead of 2nd level.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:22 AM
So what's the spell you want to add to your spell list?


Definitely use Sand Shaper. Even a Sorcerer 19 / Sand Shaper 1 has twice as many spells known as a Sorcerer 20. In addition, it lets you learn Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace as 1st level spells instead of 2nd level.

Not that it's bad, but having Shapechange, Time Stop, and Gate on your spell list > just two of those on your spell list + a large number of lower level spells.

Hawriel
2009-12-27, 02:24 AM
My friends and I let a sorc get bonus spells per day and known for having a high stat. Just like a wizard or cleric. Simple easy and in no way brakes the game.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:27 AM
My friends and I let a sorc get bonus spells per day and known for having a high stat. Just like a wizard or cleric. Simple easy and in no way brakes the game.

This MIGHT be possible. That is if I don't try to get what I rolled for my Sorceror's stats.
17
16
16
16
15
14

I highly doubt my DM would believe me anyway since he wasn't there to witness it.

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:28 AM
also, I really just want one more second level spell so that I can boost all my ally's main stats. (I'm level 6 so I only get two known)
+X Buffs are the weakest spells in all of D&D, except maybe for summons. They are supposed to be cast using extra spell slots whenever you have extra time before combat. You really only need a couple of them, and your main spells for use during combat should go to something better. How do you even expect to tag your allies with so many before the durations on the early ones run out? Pack a scorching ray or flaming sphere to do more damage than the buff, or better yet do something that controls the situation like invisibility or glitterdust.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:29 AM
So what's the spell you want to add to your spell list?
.

Owl's wisdom for the Druid

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:32 AM
So his spells can land maybe 15% more often each round, which are probably weaker than an arcane spells... or you can just cast a spell that probably lands right away. Yeah, this is why I say you only need 1 or 2 +X buffs just in case you have a free round before the fight starts and you have extra spell slots. Beyond that it's not worth it.

Drekk
2009-12-27, 02:33 AM
The Druid can prepare any of those spells and doesn't have to commit spells known. Buffs are all and good, but I think you're shafting yourself. Maybe you could swap out those spells for some solid multi-purpose Arcane-only spells, say, Invisibility and Glitterdust?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:36 AM
Owl's wisdom for the Druid

Suggestion: Ditch the buffs, pick some quality arcane spells, and have fun doing something in combat rather than standing around fight after fight popping off first level spells.

Zaq
2009-12-27, 02:36 AM
+X Buffs are the weakest spells in all of D&D, except maybe for summons.

While I agree that +X stat spells are really weak, what kind of summons are you using? Summons are almost criminally versatile (they may start out as just ready-made flanking buddies, but the SLAs that they have at higher levels are really, really nice) and if anything can be a little overpowered.

To keep this on topic, summon monster X spells are actually a decent way for a sorcerer to get sort of phantom "spells known." You won't have the spells themselves, but if you can summon something that has a spell you want as an SLA, well, that's another spell in your repertoire, even if it's not as readily accessible. Since each Summon Monster spell gives you so many different creatures, you gain access to a lot of different spells with each one. At 2nd spell level, your options aren't fantastic, but once you start summoning outsiders and other things that have good SLAs, they really help.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:39 AM
The best summon I can get is summon monster 3 at this point which although it sounds decent doesn't have any SLAs that buff my allies. (if it's actually horrible sorry. I'm not great at gauging power in 3.5 plus it's almost 3 am

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:39 AM
While I agree that +X stat spells are really weak, what kind of summons are you using? Summons are almost criminally versatile (they may start out as just ready-made flanking buddies, but the SLAs that they have at higher levels are really, really nice) and if anything can be a little overpowered.

Summons have plenty of good applications at being extra bodies - usually you stop at summon monster I or so for that. But at fighting they're weak unless you have a boatload of time to carefully tweak them out. They tend to be CR = 1/2 character level. And then their caster level is usually equal or lower than their CR. For a less experienced player I'd skip them or get only summon monster I for aforementioned utility purposes. Springing traps, etc. Though IIRC you must be able to communicate with them to get them to do anything but fight.

Stick to spells that give status effects like those mentioned and/or straightup damage.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:40 AM
also, why is invisibility so good if I can't attack anything lest it be dispelled? Why not wait a level or two when I can get greater invisibility?

EDIT; @V no Rogues although I guess I can see letting an ally get away.

so you guy's suggest glitterdust and invisibility?

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:44 AM
It gives the rogue one sneak attack as it goes poof. It lets him scout. It lets an endangered ally PC or NPC or you get away. Etc., etc. Like a lot of other good spells, it lets you take control or deny it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:44 AM
At 2nd spell level, your options aren't fantastic

Coughsummommirrormephitcough

Dimers
2009-12-27, 02:50 AM
Okay. I may be playing a Sorceror soon and was wondering how I could get more spells known. is there any way to do this or no?

also, I really just want one more second level spell so that I can boost all my ally's main stats. (I'm level 6 so I only get two known)

You have enough Wisdom to use Arcane Disciple feat from CD. If you choose the Strength domain, you can cast bull's strength via the feat, so you'd select owl's wisdom instead for your standard sorcerer pick. The drawback is that you can cast only one domain spell of each level per day, so you'd be limited to one strength buff. Doesn't sound ideal for what little I know of your situation, but I like to remind people about the feat 'cos it's so flexible and character-rich.

The exalted arcanist class (BoED, of course) is another way to add spells known, but you don't have any choice about which ones, and the character has to be exalted.

And of course there's Extra Spell feat in Complete Arcane. *shrug*

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:51 AM
well I suppose I should get to bed since I have something I can't mention on these boards and a D&D game I have to DM tomorrow.

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:52 AM
2nd level is overloaded with secondary spells like the +X buffs as if the makers were planning for when you're higher level. But level 2 does have a few gems:
Control: glitterdust, web, invisibility
Damage: flaming sphere (at low levels), scorching ray (at caster level 7th or higher)

3rd level has plenty of good options, so take your pick among control or damage since these are your main spells (add on other kinds as secondary spells later). Don't confuse status effect buffs like invisibility or haste with +X buffs; status buffs are excellent forms of control. Usually (but not always) you do control 1st, damage 2nd, assuming your allies don't already have a handle on things after you tilt the battle heavily in your favor with control.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-27, 02:54 AM
the main spells I like at third level are haste and fireball.

Optimystik
2009-12-27, 02:55 AM
I agree with Drek - leave the buffing to the Druid, you cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down.


Coughsummommirrormephitcough

Also, Wings of Cover

ericgrau
2009-12-27, 02:56 AM
the main spells I like at third level are haste and fireball.
Ya those are real gems. You're good to go there. So yeah just pick a decent 2nd level spell then.

One thing on sorcerers in the future is that you may get overloaded with spell slots unless you blow some lower level spells outside of combat. You can't be all boom. At higher levels there are some buffs that last all day. Any utility stuff that can be cast over and over again outside of combat is also good. But stuff that's good once in a blue moon when the right opportunity arises belongs on scrolls only. Again these are all for your extra spell slots just so you can burn them and at least get something minor from it, not for your main spells.

Ernir
2009-12-27, 04:26 AM
Dragon Magazine 333 has "Knowstones". Wearing one gives you an extra spell known. Cost = (spell_level^2)*1000 GP.

The Mother Cyst feat in Libris Mortis gives you quite a few, but it's yukky. :smalltongue:

PrCs like Fiend-Blooded and Dracolexi can give them one at a time.

Darrin
2009-12-27, 11:01 AM
also, why is invisibility so good if I can't attack anything lest it be dispelled? Why not wait a level or two when I can get greater invisibility?


There are a lot of things you can do while invisible that don't count as an "attack". For example: summoning a monster, buffing your allies, battlefield control (grease, silent/minor image, etc.), directing an unseen servant, and so forth.



so you guy's suggest glitterdust and invisibility?

Glitterdust is pure awesomesauce. Invisibility... situational, but mostly it's used to remove your spellcaster as an available target. Depending on the other PCs around you, and what you need to do that isn't a direct attack, yes, it's a good spell.

If all you need is an extra 2nd level spell slot, you could try:

Scribe Scroll. You take a little bit of an XP ding, but reading a scroll doesn't count against your daily limit of spells. Carry around a few copies of your most popular buff spells, and this keeps your spell slots open for more important stuff.

Brew Potion or Gremma's Cauldron. More expensive than scrolls, and only works with certain spells, but if you hand these out to the other PCs it allows you to shift the action economy over on them. If they spend the first round quaffing potions, this frees you up to cast more important spells. If you can't spare the feat for Brew Potion, you can buy Gremma's Cauldron to give you the Brew Potion feat for 5000 GP (Expedition to Undermountain p. 217). If you already have Brew Potion, then it cuts the creation time from 8 hours to 4.

Memento Magica (MIC p. 164). This is the spontaneous version of a Pearl of Power. It's more expensive (1500 GP for a 1st level spell, 6000 for a 2nd level spell), but is more flexible than the Pearl. The Pearl allows you to recast a spell you cast previously, while the Memento frees up a spell slot that you can use to cast anything you want. If you're going to be using that 2nd level spell to buff your fellow PCs, then you have a pretty strong argument to get them to buy it for you.

Extra Slot feat (Complete Arcane). If you can cast 3rd level spells, then you can pick up an extra 2nd level slot with this feat. Most optimizers tend to poo-poo this feat because it doesn't scale well... at 6th level, another 2nd level spell slot is a significant advantage. At 20th level, it's completely meaningless. And buying a feat that doesn't significantly help you for your entire career is doubly-costly for Sorcerers, because you don't get any bonus feats. Period. Better to buy the Memento Magica instead.

To increase your spells known... well, that's another ball of wax. There are several methods to add to your spells known, some of which have already been mentioned:

Sandshaper PrC (Sandstorm). Yeah, you lose a caster level, which hurts Sorcerers worse than Wizards, but the extra spells are usually worth it. There are other PrCs that grant known spells... Frost Mage, I think, but I can't recall any others off the top of my head.

Runestaves (MIC). These can be very expensive, give you a list of spells that can be cast instead of a prepared spell or an open spell slot. As a sorcerer, you don't have to know the spells provided by the Runestave, but they do have to be on your spell list. Never really used these myself, so I'm not sure which ones are better than others... although the Runestaff of Transmutation looks like a great deal for 25K.

Raiment of the Four (MIC). Four magic items in a set designed for Sorcerers that allow them to sacrifice an unexpended spell slot to cast a few particular spells. Belt of Wide Earth allows you to sacrifice a spell slot to cast Teleport. Gloves of the Starry Sky allow you to cast Magic Missile instead of some other 1st level spell. Goggles of the Golden Sun provides Fireball. Periapt of the Sullen Sea provides Freedom of Movement, which can be difficult to get ahold of as a Sor/Wiz... so for only 6000 GP, this is a fabulous bargain and probably a must-have for any Sor/Wiz.

Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine). Extremely useful feat, particularly if there's one spell on a domain list that you absolutely *must* have. Much better than Draconic Heritage/Draconic Legacy, because one feat adds nine spells on your known spell list. The only downside (other than requiring a higher Wisdom) is each domain spell can only be cast once per day. However, since it does add the spell to your spell list, you can use scrolls and spell-trigger items if you need multiple castings.

Draconic Heritage/Draconic Legacy feats (Complete Arcane, Dragon Magic). The Draconic line of feats is a bit of "total screw-job" for sorcerers... they can add a lot of options for Sorcerers, but it burns up a lot of feats. Draconic Legacy adds three spells but requires four draconic feats... so five feats to get three spells, most of which are useless or too high level to be useful at lower levels. Unless you really know what you're doing with the draconic feats, avoid these.

Bloodline feats (Dragon Magazine, Dragon Compendium). Like Arcane Disciple, this adds nine spells to your spells known. However, unless you're very careful about which bloodline you pick, it can have a bigger downside, as each Bloodline requires you to remove a certain number of spells from your spell list. Like banned schools, this means you can't cast them, ever, not even using runestaves, scrolls, spell-trigger items, and so forth (although UMD will still work). Not all the spells granted are useful, and some of the trade-offs may be too costly. I ranked the various Bloodlines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30) a while ago, but those are just my opinions. Greater minds may beg to differ.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-27, 11:29 AM
Hopefully someone's already mentioned it: But Knowstones(DR 333) let you know another spell for 1000*Spell Level*2.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-27, 02:18 PM
Cut, paste and add to this list if you wish.

Items:

Knowstones from Dragon Mag #333
Runestaves from MIC
Drake Helm from Eberron: Explorer's Handbook pg# 151

Feats:
Extra Spell -Comp Arcane It's a trap!
Mother Cyst-Libris Mortis
Cerebrosis- Dragon Mag #330 (Kind of like a Lovecraft~ish Mother cyst feat)

PrCs:
Sandshaper- 1 level Dip ftw!
Fiend-Blooded- HoH

Longcat
2009-12-27, 02:22 PM
I wonder why no one has mentioned Rainbow Servant yet. You get to add the entire cleric spell list.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-27, 02:26 PM
You still have to learn the spells though.

Longcat
2009-12-27, 02:29 PM
My bad, too used to Beguilers and Warmages, I guess.

Mike_G
2009-12-28, 10:33 PM
Doesn't the Extra Spell feat give you an extra Spell Known?

Thurbane
2009-12-28, 10:35 PM
...mostly already mentioned, but:

Extra Spell feat
Runestaves
Sand Shaper PrC
Fiend Blooded PrC

Crafty Cultist
2009-12-29, 12:56 AM
taking arcane preperation allows you to qualify for mage of the arcane order as a sorcerer, so you can gain access to the spellpool

mint
2009-12-29, 07:36 AM
drake-helms can get you more spells. they'll be in the eberron explorer's handbook p 151.

Bosh
2009-12-29, 08:19 AM
There's some dragony feats in Complete Arcane that give you specific dragon-flavored extra spells known.

Thurbane
2009-12-29, 06:35 PM
The Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium get you an extra spell at each spell level (1 through 9).

JaronK
2009-12-29, 08:55 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order lets you have all the utility spells you want, though it takes a little work to qualify for as a Sorcerer.

And where's the big power Sorcerer spells in there? +4 to a stat is all fine and well, but Glitterdust is just so much handier...

JaronK

Lord of Syntax
2009-12-29, 10:10 PM
the main spells I like at third level are haste and fireball.

Read the wizard handbook! (the spell part) Dude, seriously. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)

Milskidasith
2009-12-29, 10:21 PM
Why are people suggesting a one level dip in sandshaper? It gives you free metamagic, people! A sorcerer 19/Sand Shaper 1 is far worse than a Sorcerer 11/Sand Shaper 9 (5/day free metamagics to spells, other more situational stuff).

EDIT: Forgot you lose your second level of casting at 9th, not 10th, level with sand shaper. Storm Shaper is not as good for long term, then.

deuxhero
2009-12-29, 10:22 PM
Knowstones were given in some dragon issue. For the price of a same level pearl of power, you get a new spell known.