Magic Missle: The Greatest Spell?

[AirGuitarGod32]

I just obtained Dragon Magic Compendium V1, and instantly fell in love eith the Force Missle Mage. Granted, its not a full caster class, but the sheer fluff of it seems perfect. However, how could someone, at non-epic, "abuse" this class in combination to have "infinite magic missles."

Your goal, playgrounders, is to figure a way to launch as many magic missles in one cast as possible in 20 levels using whatever way possible.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Reserves of Strength will be mentioned at some point, in combination with Twin Spell and Red Wizard of Thay.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Reserves of Strength will be mentioned at some point, in combination with Twin Spell and Red Wizard of Thay.

I almost also said chain spell, but that works too...

Never heared of Reserves of Strength. What does it do?

[HCL]

Uncaps the caster level on your spells, so you get get moar magic missiles

[Melamoto]

I seem to recall seeing a build that could fire off hundreds of magic missiles in 1 round. Can't remember where I saw it though...

Aha! Got it, the guide to firing off 196 magic missiles per round (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19977429/196_Magic_Missiles_Per_Round).

[Tanaric]

Uncaps the caster level on your spells, so you get get moar magic missiles

This is, of course, only due to the poor wording rampant in that book. The same poor wording that lets a wizard prepare an arbitrary amount of spells so long as he has ability damage reducers or immunity. *coughBlackRobescough*

What the feat should do is raise the cap by 1, 2, or 3 levels, the same as the feat allows you to raise it. It doesn't, since such details seem to have slipped by the playtesters, but what else is new?

[UserClone]

This is, of course, only due to the poor wording rampant in that book. The same poor wording that lets a wizard prepare an arbitrary amount of spells so long as he has ability damage reducers or immunity. *coughBlackRobescough*

What the feat should do is raise the cap by 1, 2, or 3 levels, the same as the feat allows you to raise it. It doesn't, since such details seem to have slipped by the playtesters, but what else is new?

Awesome! Where's it from, since I want to create a Force Missile Mage of my own at some point.

[Tanaric]

Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[ex cathedra]

Even if he asked for it in jest, I feel compelled to mention that, if memory serves, Arcane Fusion recursion can produce infinite magic missiles.

By the by.

[josh13905]

How's that work by the way?

[Signmaker]

How's that work by the way?

Make Arcane Fusion a 4th level spell in whatever fashion you'd like. Arcane Fusion and Arcane Fusion and Magic Missile. Use the Arcane Fusion to get an Arcane Fusion and Magic Missile. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

[josh13905]

How exactly do you lower the level of a spell?

[DragoonWraith]

The trick, I believe, is to use metamagic reducers/Sanctum Spell to fit a Arcane Fusion into an Arcane Fusion, so that you have Arcane Fusion(Magic Missile, Arcane Fusion(Magic Missile, Arcane Fusion(Magic Missile, Arcane ... )))))).

[josh13905]

What book is this arcane fusion from?

[Signmaker]

The trick, I believe, is to use metamagic reducers/Sanctum Spell to fit a Arcane Fusion into an Arcane Fusion, so that you have Arcane Fusion(Magic Missile, Arcane Fusion(Magic Missile, Arcane Fusion(Magic Missile, Arcane ... )))))).

I believe Sanctum Spell as a standalone works. Maybe.

[ex cathedra]

Complete Mage.

For the sake of everyone involved, please don't introduce this to any actual games. It's just a thought exercise. :smallredface:

[josh13905]

I would never, But I'll probably bring it up for laughs and giggles.

[taltamir]

yes, arcane fusions recursions are hilarious...
Although, no DM will let it fly...

heck arcane fusion recursions require that your DM allow abusing some of the most badly written metamagic reducers to reduce a spell below its original level. That is another thing that no DM will allow.

Not to mention WOTC finally patched up that hole by specifying in an errata you cannot use arcane thesis to lower a spell below its original level. This leaves arcane thesis still horribly broken... because you can still reduce all the metamagics on it to +0. For example, an arcane thesised fireball to which you apply the sanctum spell (+0) at -1, and the empowered spell (+2) at -1 remains at a total level of 3. Because unlike other reduces (eg: easy metamagic) it doesn't specify a minimum of +1 per metamagic (which doesn't really work with +0 metamagics anyways).

Basically just WOTC having way too many books written by way too many people, many of which have no clue what they are doing.

You should look at "orb of acid" and other orb of <energy> spells (as well as their lesser variants)... a lesser orb requires a range touch attack (unlike MM that always hits), deals 1d8 @ CL1 and an additional 1d8 per 2 levels above it to a max of 5d8 @ CL9 (which is more than MM). And ignores spell resistance (better than MM)... there are also not a bunch of spells that explicitly block it (like MM is)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sanctum Spell was errata'd to not work that way.

[Soranar]

I think there's a simpler option

you could just cast images of yourseld that can also cast and have them magic missile your ennemy

[herrhauptmann]

I think there's a simpler option

you could just cast images of yourseld that can also cast and have them magic missile your ennemy

Your images would LOOK like they've cast magic missile, but the image missiles won't deal damage.

[tyckspoon]

Sanctum Spell was errata'd to not work that way.

No it wasn't. Arcane Thesis received errata that made it unable to reduce something beyond the base level (but did confirm that paying off other metamagics with -1 reduced +0 metamagics does work..) Sanctum Spell has no errata.

[Keld Denar]

Not images, but Simlulacrum could be used to create a real image of yourself that can cast your spells at as a caster of half your own levels.



It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).


So, if you were a level 18-20 caster, your Simulacrum would have a CL of at least 9, and be able to cast full 5-missile Magic Missiles.

Thats on top of whatever else you do on your own.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Okay. So here's one I saw.

Arcane thesis on Magic Missle. Have Reserve of Strength.

Polymorph Self into Spellweaver (MMII)

Be as follows: Wizard 5/Incantrix1/Force Missle Mage 5/Incantrix 8/whatever 1

cast a Twin Repeating Exploding Quickened Magic Missle x2 from all six hands.

I freaking lost count of how many Magic Missles that is!!

[olelia]

Okay. So here's one I saw.

Arcane thesis on Magic Missle. Have Reserve of Strength.

Polymorph Self into Spellweaver (MMII)

Be as follows: Wizard 5/Incantrix1/Force Missle Mage 5/Incantrix 8/whatever 1

cast a Twin Repeating Exploding Quickened Magic Missle x2 from all six hands.

I freaking lost count of how many Magic Missles that is!!

Exploding...like explosive spell? If yes, I thought that was only for AOEs, if not ...please enlighten :smallbiggrin:.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Exploding...like explosive spell? If yes, I thought that was only for AOEs, if not ...please enlighten :smallbiggrin:.

Considering it, at least how I read it, makes a spell an AOE......


The hell. I just thought that many exploding magic missles'd be pretty.....:belkar::biggrin:

[Sharkman1231]

Watch out for SR though.

[Milskidasith]

Watch out for SR though.

Force Missile Mage makes Magic Missiles SR: No. Also, you get permanent spell reflection against magic missiles and you can pierce shields with a pitiful caster level check (broach of shielding = DC 20, shield = DC caster level, so unless the guy is significantly stronger than you, you'll always be able to cast against him with your missiles), and spell turning runs out against yours.

So basically, the only way to stop the magic missiles is permanent spell turning (In which case missiles bounce between you two forever) and an AMF.

[Cute_Riolu]

...Is there any way to make magic missiles capable of damaging objects?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Beholder Mage? Can cast how many spells per round? plus aforementioned shennanigans...

[Optimystik]

Considering that they're both 5-level PrCs, has anyone homebrewed a combination of Argent Savant and Force Missile Mage yet? (Preferably with at least 9/10 casting.)

[KellKheraptis]

I have a Master Spellthief build on BG inspired by anklebite that hits CL 110, and has Reserves of Strength, and a plethora of metamagic (including fell drain). I never bothered to see how many he could fire off, but with 55 per casting, and the potential to get a LOT of spells out, even without thesis, it would blow 196 out of the water, not to mention do a ton of negative level damage and other effects to boot (like say...+2 damage per die from Cold Spell Spec and Frozen Magic). Hell, with Snowcasting in the mix as it is now, you can even Admix some of them :)

[taltamir]

Force Missile Mage makes Magic Missiles SR: No. Also, you get permanent spell reflection against magic missiles and you can pierce shields with a pitiful caster level check (broach of shielding = DC 20, shield = DC caster level, so unless the guy is significantly stronger than you, you'll always be able to cast against him with your missiles), and spell turning runs out against yours.

So basically, the only way to stop the magic missiles is permanent spell turning (In which case missiles bounce between you two forever) and an AMF.

I am pretty sure it will do what spell turning explicitly says happens when a spell is "stuck" between two people with spell turning...
you roll on a chart and find out what happens. (spell is wasted, one of you gets hit, both of you are hit, or both of you are cast off into another dimension)

[BobVosh]

Beholder Mage? Can cast how many spells per round? plus aforementioned shennanigans...

Someone just turned the cheese dial to 11.


I have a Master Spellthief build on BG inspired by anklebite that hits CL 110, and has Reserves of Strength, and a plethora of metamagic (including fell drain). I never bothered to see how many he could fire off, but with 55 per casting, and the potential to get a LOT of spells out, even without thesis, it would blow 196 out of the water, not to mention do a ton of negative level damage and other effects to boot (like say...+2 damage per die from Cold Spell Spec and Frozen Magic). Hell, with Snowcasting in the mix as it is now, you can even Admix some of them :)

What level?

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Now you got me wanting to make a Force Missile Mage too!

Think I'd go with a dragonwrought Kobold sorc (to soak lost caster levels) using early entry Into Force Missile Mage, Argent Savant, And metaphysical spellshaper. Hmm, 4 levels to play with. What to do with them...

[AirGuitarGod32]

Hmm... Now you got me wanting to make a Force Missile Mage too!

Think I'd go with a dragonwrought Kobold sorc (to soak lost caster levels) using early entry Into Force Missile Mage, Argent Savant, And metaphysical spellshaper. Hmm, 4 levels to play with. What to do with them...

Incantrix?

[Vizzerdrix]

Naah, not for 4 (and figuring out how it works with sorc hurts my head)

Maybe mage of the arcane order? Or Sandshaper-1 +Fiendblooded-3? Hmm...

[Melamoto]

Okay. So here's one I saw.

Arcane thesis on Magic Missle. Have Reserve of Strength.

Polymorph Self into Spellweaver (MMII)

Be as follows: Wizard 5/Incantrix1/Force Missle Mage 5/Incantrix 8/whatever 1

cast a Twin Repeating Exploding Quickened Magic Missle x2 from all six hands.

I freaking lost count of how many Magic Missles that is!!

196. I already linked that earlier on in the thread.

[UserClone]

Don't forget to take Born of Three Thunders for fun with Sonic, in conjuction with the class feature of the FMM that lets you change the energy descriptor.

[taltamir]

force missile mage is pretty uber... you get the option to change the MM to any energy damage type of your choice (acid, cold, fire, etc).
you get to bypass SR, you get to bypass spells that specifically make someone immune to magic missile, and you get spell deflection for MM, and other goodies.

So, a spell that has no save, doesn't miss, and ignores SR, and bypasses spells that specifically hinder it, and does extra damage, and takes a level 1 slot... it is really uber, yes.

is there a metamagic around to make it long range too while we are at it?

[UserClone]

Without other stuff to boost the damage output, by itself FMM is actually still a pretty meh class, powerwise. I love the flavor, though.

[taltamir]

Without other stuff to boost the damage output, by itself FMM is actually still a pretty meh class, powerwise. I love the flavor, though.

arcane thesis: Magic missle

empower, maximize, quicken, twinned, repeating.

various other metamagic reducers...

[UserClone]

A.k.a., Other Stuff.

[taltamir]

A.k.a., Other Stuff.

ah, i see...

yes, casting a spell for an average of 17.5HP damage at level 10+ is a waste of actions.

[UserClone]

force missile mage is pretty uber... you get the option to change the MM to any energy damage type of your choice (acid, cold, fire, etc).
you get to bypass SR, you get to bypass spells that specifically make someone immune to magic missile, and you get spell deflection for MM, and other goodies.

So, a spell that has no save, doesn't miss, and ignores SR, and bypasses spells that specifically hinder it, and does extra damage, and takes a level 1 slot... it is really uber, yes.

is there a metamagic around to make it long range too while we are at it?

Isn't that Enlarge Spell, IIRC?

[taltamir]

enlarge increases its area of effect... so a 10 foot radius becomes larger...
magic missile has no area.

[UserClone]

Nope. You're confusing Enlarge with Widen. Why they chose to call it Enlarge I have no idea. Probably a combination of poor vocabulary and the fact they'd already used Extend.

[Kobold-Bard]

Before Arguskos gets here: Favoured Spell [Magic Missile] (so any Spell can be a Magic Missile).

I've been wanting to build a character along the lines of Wiz 5/FMM 5 // ??? 5/Swiftblade 5, give him a Wis of 6, and say he was too dim to pass Magic School, and instead latched onto two spells (MM and Haste) and focussed his entire being into them.

[Optimystik]

Nope. You're confusing Enlarge with Widen. Why they chose to call it Enlarge I have no idea. Probably a combination of poor vocabulary and the fact they'd already used Extend.

They also already used Reach spell.

I would have used "Long-range Spell" myself. :smalltongue:

[UserClone]

Well, technically Reach came later in a splatbook. Sorry to pick your nits.

[deuxhero]

Hmm, is the way magic missiles fly (straight or such) ever stated? or can you use Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil's roboteching magic missles?

[taltamir]

Hmm, is the way magic missiles fly (straight or such) ever stated? or can you use Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil's roboteching magic missles?

it doesn't matter how they fly, they always hit, always.

[UserClone]

They fly however you describe them, so long as it doesn't violate line of effect/line of sight.

[deuxhero]

it doesn't matter how they fly, they always hit, always.

Yeah, but 27 missles roboteching>>>27 missiles coming out of your hand and going straight for the target.

[UserClone]

Then I guess we know how your characters' magic missiles will fly, don't we? :smallwink: If it makes you feel better, you could just take Spell Thematics.

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, I don't know about Force Mage, but a Great Wyrm Dragon with an Energy Transformation field with Magic Missile linked, the quicken breath feat, and a breath weapon granted via item could fire off...

74 castings of magic missile, for 370 total missiles, in a round, by breathing into the ETF.

That'd be an average of 1295 damage.

[UserClone]

An excellent case for not letting players play Great Wyrm Dragons.

[PhoenixRivers]

An excellent case for not letting players play Great Wyrm Dragons.

...Players as the dragon?

No, the damage is so high so that it can reasonably TPK a level 20 party.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Shield is a first level spell.:smalltongue:

[olentu]

Hmm what was that feat that lets one use a breath weapon as a free action. I suppose the fact that one has a breath weapon as a free action makes the whole energy transformation thing less necessary but still magic missiles.

[PhoenixRivers]

Shield is a first level spell.:smalltongue:

A short duration 1st level spell that is eclipsed by a variety of spells and items as you progress to levels capable of fighting Great Wyrms.

Usually cast in reaction to missiles. By the time you have reaction time, however, these have all flown.

As for free breath? I know of the Quicken Breath Metabreath feat, that reduces it. However, it adds a hefty cooldown.

[olentu]

A short duration 1st level spell that is eclipsed by a variety of spells and items as you progress to levels capable of fighting Great Wyrms.

Usually cast in reaction to missiles. By the time you have reaction time, however, these have all flown.

As for free breath? I know of the Quicken Breath Metabreath feat, that reduces it. However, it adds a hefty cooldown.

Ah well perhaps I am confusing it with something else. I shall have to investigate so that I can build my magic missiles on the backs of my dragonfire adept slaves workers.

[PhoenixRivers]

Ah well perhaps I am confusing it with something else. I shall have to investigate so that I can build my magic missiles on the backs of my dragonfire adept slaves workers.

Bear in mind, if the Breath Weapon is a Su effect that does not replicate a spell, it adds that many levels to an ETF. So a great wyrm breathing adds 37 spell levels, because it's 37 Hit dice.

DFA's would get considerably less.

[olentu]

Bear in mind, if the Breath Weapon is a Su effect that does not replicate a spell, it adds that many levels to an ETF. So a great wyrm breathing adds 37 spell levels, because it's 37 Hit dice.

DFA's would get considerably less.

Well yes, but from what I can remember there was no increase in cool down by making it a free action with the feat I was remembering. Though on the other hand my memory on this is obviously lacking so it really depends on how things turn out to have been printed.

[PhoenixRivers]

Any free action Su or Sp will work.

[olentu]

Any free action Su or Sp will work.

Also correct assuming there is no per day limitation. However this particular one happens to be the one that I was wondering about as I had forgotten where to find the feat, that may or may not exist, hence my original inquiry as to the information about the feat.

[UserClone]

A short duration 1st level spell that is eclipsed by a variety of spells and items as you progress to levels capable of fighting Great Wyrms.

Usually cast in reaction to missiles. By the time you have reaction time, however, these have all flown.

As for free breath? I know of the Quicken Breath Metabreath feat, that reduces it. However, it adds a hefty cooldown.

Ah, but shield is immediate as long as you are a 2nd-level or higher FMM. :smallwink: Not to mention what would happen if the dragon pulled this on a 4th-level FMM.:smallamused:

[PhoenixRivers]

Ah, but shield is immediate as long as you are a 2nd-level or higher FMM. :smallwink: Not to mention what would happen if the dragon pulled this on a 4th-level FMM.:smallamused:

Well, if the dragon was smart, it would put snake's swiftness into the ETF. The above breath combo would then yield 37 bite attacks. I was applying it to MM based on the thread topic.

[Kobold-Bard]

Shield is a first level spell.:smalltongue:

And FMM makes it obsolete vs.Magic Missiles.

You could make an At-Will Magic Missile Item for 18,000gp (assuming CL9). Would FMM class features affect those Missiles?

In Neverwinter Nights, MM's fly in a sort of arc, but I always picture them flying straight, like big round bullets.

[PhoenixRivers]

And FMM makes it obsolete vs.Magic Missiles.

You could make an At-Will Magic Missile Item for 18,000gp (assuming CL9). Would FMM class features affect those Missiles?

In Neverwinter Nights, MM's fly in a sort of arc, but I always picture them flying straight, like big round bullets.

Nightshield would do it, as well (level 1).

Also, Lesser Spell immunity (Level 2, IIRC).

[sofawall]

Before Arguskos gets here: Favoured Spell [Magic Missile] (so any Spell can be a Magic Missile).

I've been wanting to build a character along the lines of Wiz 5/FMM 5 // ??? 5/Swiftblade 5, give him a Wis of 6, and say he was too dim to pass Magic School, and instead latched onto two spells (MM and Haste) and focussed his entire being into them.

Rincewind?

[Kobold-Bard]

Rincewind?

Gazuntite? Seriously though, what's Rincewind?

[ex cathedra]

Gazuntite? Seriously though, what's Rincewind?

Seriously, though, what's gazuntite? Did you sneeze or something?

If so, gesundheit.

[Kobold-Bard]

Seriously, though, what's gazuntite? Did you sneeze or something?

If so, gesundheit.

I did, but Google didn't tell me that. DAMN YOU GOOGLE :smallannoyed:

[Vizzerdrix]

Rincewind?

Hardly. Neither spell holds a candle to the ones that jammed themselves in his head.

[lesser_minion]

Also, Lesser Spell immunity (Level 2, IIRC).

SR:No = cannot be immune (but you can use Spell Turning).


Not familiar with Nightshield, but the Force Missile Mage gets around:


Spell Resistance (and most immunities)
Shield, the Brooch of Shielding, and other items that block magic missiles.
Anti-force effects (can change energy type)
Inability to exploit energy vulnerabilities


There are a few other things. The Force Missile Mage's immunity to magic missile is about the only thing that works (as well as spell turning, and antimagic, and CL-boosting until you can polymorph into a tarrasque for the reflective carapace)

[dyslexicfaser]

Gazuntite? Seriously though, what's Rincewind?
Terry Pratchet character, a wizard who is very, very good at running away.

[deuxhero]

Hmm what was that feat that lets one use a breath weapon as a free action.

Flyby Breath Dragon Lance Campaign setting (note, it's "free", not "free once a turn" or any other qualifier, not built with unlimited breathers in mind),

[olentu]

Flyby Breath Dragon Lance Campaign setting (note, it's "free", not "free once a turn" or any other qualifier, not built with unlimited breathers in mind),

Ah that was what I was thinking of. Thanks for the help.