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Jimp
2009-12-27, 02:25 PM
I'm putting together stuff for an E6 game and was wondering about how strong the ToB classes are in that level range compared to the other melee/martial classes. First impressions were 'a whole lot better at combat'. Are they too good though? I know the old argument of using them to balance magic abuse but that's not a concern, it's wether they outshine the other martial classes in that level range to the extent that the other classes are no longer 'worth playing'. My only experience with them in actual play is in the 8-12 range, during which they were real good but compared well to other damage focused characters.
For those unfamiliar with E6, it's a variant rule where leveling stops at level 6 and instead of more levels you gain a feat for every x amount of XP you get.
Opinions please?

Serenity
2009-12-27, 02:29 PM
I recall reading about a test someone did that concluded that at levels 1-6, a warblade and a fighter were about equal--the Warblade's got a wider variety of tricks, but the fighter has ranged weaponry and tends to outdamage the Warblade. I could be totally off-base though, so wait for further input.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-27, 02:30 PM
I'd say the ToB classes are definitely stronger than core melee at 1st level and probably stronger at 2nd, but it evens out from levels 3-6. The other melee classes need a couple levels so they can get enough feats to be effective in their specialties (either charging or Improved Trip). Once the non-ToB classes have those in place, they're better at their particular tricks, but less versatile overall.

AslanCross
2009-12-27, 05:10 PM
A fighter who knows what he's doing can definitely outpace a warblade. ToB classes depend a lot on extra dice, which aren't always reliable. Fighters and Barbarians who are built properly depend on bonus damage, which is easy to get and reliable.

Eldariel
2009-12-27, 07:58 PM
Yeah, it depends really. If we're talking optimized, Barb & Fighter can hang on just fine in combat, especially with Dungeoncrasher JUST maxing out at the end of E6. ToB classes are just easier and stronger out of the box, and more versatile hence being e.g. my preference. Purely combat & damage-wise tho, Fighter and Barb may actually be better.

And casters can still compete since they're playing a completely different game, solving problems through completely different means so they don't even need to try to compete; they do something ToB classes can't.


So yeah, while a level 1 Warblade has impressive damage output, a level 1 Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian with Extra Rage definitely outdoes him by a fair bit whenever Raging (and he has 3 Rages).

And I don't think anything short of a mounted charger can match a Dungeoncrasher Goliath Fighter's damage output on level 6.

Trixie
2009-12-27, 08:05 PM
A fighter who knows what he's doing can definitely outpace a warblade. ToB classes depend a lot on extra dice, which aren't always reliable. Fighters and Barbarians who are built properly depend on bonus damage, which is easy to get and reliable.

Um, let me point out that ToB character knowing what it is doing will slaughter core classes (almost) every time. Even Swordsage can do a few absolutely murderous moves.

And if the wizard doesn't have access to scrolls, but instead has to do with spells per level, he isn't much more versatile than a ToB character, and much more squishier. If he has... well, it a case of hax character that, unlike all others, can broaden its options with monies.

Eldariel
2009-12-27, 08:13 PM
Um, let me point out that ToB character knowing what it is doing will slaughter core classes (almost) every time. Even Swordsage can do a few absolutely murderous moves.

Depends. ToB who knows what he's doing vs. Barb/Fighter who knows what he's doing is really quite an even match, depending on the level. Sure, ToB classes are more versatile and easily optimized, but a level 1 Warblade cannot really grow his damage output as much as a level 1 Barbarian; level 1 Swordsage will outdo his core counterparts (Monk, arguably Rogue), but vs. Fighter or Barbarian in a straight fight, will be about even.

Their greatest advantages come from things other than straight fights and other than 1v1 PvP duels with known starting locations and all that. Versatility, magical defenses, defensive maneuvers, non-damage attacks, etc. are all very useful, but a Barbarian still has the highest damage and Trip-checks, and the Fighter can pull off certain feat combos the fastest and is the only class with access to 8d6+3xStr Dungeoncrasher (with his iterative and main attack, no less).

Admittedly, on level 1 Fighter doesn't get anything too interesting, but is still the only warrior class to be able to pull off Improved Trip on 1 while using a stat boost race like Dragonborn Water Orc. Level 2-6 though, their ACFs do quite a bit for them.

AslanCross
2009-12-27, 08:48 PM
Um, let me point out that ToB character knowing what it is doing will slaughter core classes (almost) every time. Even Swordsage can do a few absolutely murderous moves.

And if the wizard doesn't have access to scrolls, but instead has to do with spells per level, he isn't much more versatile than a ToB character, and much more squishier. If he has... well, it a case of hax character that, unlike all others, can broaden its options with monies.

If they both know what they're doing they're really quite even. As Eldariel said, PvP isn't exactly an accurate measure of class strength.

deuxhero
2009-12-27, 09:08 PM
I thought that Barbs could outdamage ToB classes, but they were one trick ponys compared to the ToB classes.

(and what is e6?)

Eldariel
2009-12-27, 09:09 PM
I thought that Barbs could outdamage ToB classes, but they were one trick ponys compared to the ToB classes.

(and what is e6?)

E6 is a game limited to levels 1-6. This thread has a more complete account (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=202109).

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-27, 09:11 PM
I thought that Barbs could outdamage ToB classes, but they were one trick ponys compared to the ToB classes.

(and what is e6?)

Optimized 20th level Barbs VS 20th level Warblades can indeed do so. In E6? Dunno, but probably if they can get a hold of Shock Trooper.

Cainen
2009-12-27, 09:19 PM
Um, let me point out that ToB character knowing what it is doing will slaughter core classes (almost) every time.

Not even close to on the mark. Where are you pulling your assumptions from?

Riffington
2009-12-27, 09:22 PM
One tricky bit is how far into the E you go.
Fighter gains quite a bit from 3 extra feats - perhaps more than a warblade. But after the 12th extra feat, he might be dragging the bottom of the barrel, while the Warblade's now got all the feats she'd want.

avr
2009-12-27, 09:22 PM
By level 6 its arguable. By level 6 + half a dozen extra feats I don't think the fighter stands up to an equivalent warblade, since you'll be getting into the second rate feats by then for sure.

ED: Ninja'd

Trixie
2009-12-28, 07:03 AM
Not even close to on the mark. Where are you pulling your assumptions from?

Where indeed.

Swordsage - as soon as you begin fighting and win initiative (maxed dex/improved initiative), turn invisible (cloak of deception), deal 3d6 sneak attack (assassin stance) that will give enemy -4 strength (strength drain). Laugh as enemy tries to hit you. Next turn, teleport 50 feet (shadow jaunt) to safe location, meditate, regain actions, repeat. GG.

Or, just fireball him two times with fan the flames/death mark.

Warblade - Max your concentration. At level 6, it will be 9
+2 con, +3 skill focus, +2 discipline, +2 blade meditation. In total, 18 concentration. Assuming you both have 14 con, fighter will have 42 HP, you have 50 HP. As soon as the battle starts, use Duel of Wills to penalize him (for extra bonus, disarm him with expert mind and watch him crawl to regain his weapon), as he will never beat your 18 concentration, then attack with insightful strike (d20+18 damage). On average, it will be 29, more than 50% of his hp. When he attacks you, use wall of blades to make his first attack miss, besides, even if he hits you can take it (as you have DR 2 and immunity to trips and rushes from stance). On second turn, mountain hammer strike him for 4d6+str damage to close the case, or regain your strike with swift action and hit him with insightful strike again. GG.

Or, just max jumping, use tiger maneuvers with leaping dragon stance and just whack him with 7d6+str+bonuses (soaring raptor strike) two consecutive times. Even if you start a few paces apart, you can teleport to him (or from him, keeping him from using iteratives) by sudden leap. Case closed.

Sorry, with just pure E6, without a heap of feats core classes usually cannot touch ToB ones at all, as their one trick pony builds can be easily countered and their offense is just as good or better. When enemy can teleport, is invisible, immune to your trips/grapples, or plainly unhittable (and besides, when you do hit him, he has far more hp than you) then battle is a bit... one sided. Note that you assume them to have a pile of feats extending from advancing long behind pure E6 - but if you do, ToD classes can max their high level strikes/stances/tactical feats, gaining immunity to anything poor fighta is going to throw at them.

Ranos
2009-12-28, 07:31 AM
...

That's assuming you win initiative. An optimized fighter or barbarian will probably one hit kill you otherwise.

Grey Paladin
2009-12-28, 07:33 AM
Nerveskitter->Deep Slumber. Coup-de-grace with a scythe attack. GG.

Caster>Psionic>Swordsage>Fighter&Barbarian>Warblade&Crusader>Others in E6.

If the Fighter wins initiative he beats everyone else assuming he can reach them on his turn.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-28, 10:46 AM
How do you figure Swordsage over Warblade and Crusader? Usually the ranking for the three is given Crusader>Warblade>Swordsage. Not to mention, the three of the are remarkably close in power, and Fighter and Barbarian would not really split between them.

Riffington
2009-12-28, 10:58 AM
Swordsage - as soon as you begin fighting and win initiative (maxed dex/improved initiative), turn invisible (cloak of deception), deal 3d6 sneak attack (assassin stance) that will give enemy -4 strength (strength drain). [/quote]
Some assumptions, so far let's pretend they're ok.


Laugh as enemy tries to hit you.
Do you keep laughing if he succeeds?



Next turn, teleport 50 feet (shadow jaunt) to safe location, meditate, regain actions, repeat. GG.

How often do you have a really safe location within 50'?


(for extra bonus, disarm him with expert mind and watch him crawl to regain his weapon
Does this strategy assume that the enemy fighter has no backup weapon? Does this sound like a safe assumption to you?



regain your strike with swift action
How do you do that?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-28, 11:25 AM
I'd say even in E6 core combat classes are still inferior to ToB classes, but only because they're so one-sided. Taking the classes completely out of context by comparing pvp is completely invalid. When compared in context, as PCs, in a party of PCs, against monsters and other challenges, anyone can deal damage and contribute to killing stuff so it doesn't really matter that one character/class is better at it than any other. What does matter is that the Warblade uses Iron Heart Surge to get out of a disable/debuff and continue contributing. The Wizard uses Heart of Water to get out of a Web. The Swordsage uses Shadow Jaunt or Dance of the Spider to reach the Warlock who's using Flyby Attack to stay behind total cover when he's not shooting. In those situations, the core combat classes can't really swing a sword at the problem so they fall short, and that's what really matters. A party of nearly any combination of classes can deal enough combined damage to defeat their foes, and most won't need a single excessive source of damage to accomplish that.

And as far as one-shotting each other goes, an E6 Dread Necromancer can spend a single full-round action to fire four rays at four separate targets that deal eight negative levels each, thus one-shotting the entire party.

InkEyes
2009-12-28, 12:09 PM
How do you do that?

Sudden Recovery feat probably. It's in the Tome of Battle, page 33. You can only do it once per day though, so good luck after that.

Eldariel
2009-12-28, 01:47 PM
Where indeed.

Swordsage - as soon as you begin fighting and win initiative (maxed dex/improved initiative), turn invisible (cloak of deception), deal 3d6 sneak attack (assassin stance) that will give enemy -4 strength (strength drain). Laugh as enemy tries to hit you. Next turn, teleport 50 feet (shadow jaunt) to safe location, meditate, regain actions, repeat. GG.

Or, just fireball him two times with fan the flames/death mark.

That's level 5; Assassin's Stance isn't available before then. Cloak of Deception is solid, but if you don't kill your opponent (very likely with a Barbarian or a Fighter), you're going to take the full brunt of their attack. Level 5 Barbarian's attacks could look like:
18 Str > Water Orc 22 Str > Whirling Frenzy 26 Str > Item 28 Str > Enlarge 30 Str
Mw. Weapon
5 BAB
-1 Size
for a total of +16 To Hit on a Touch Attack (Trip-attempt; Improved Trip from Wolf Totem) which then effectively allows them to make their primary attacks at +20 To Hit. Or +18 since he'll probably want to make two attacks with Whirling Frenzy. Trip-checks are +18 for him so unless the Sage is Enlarged (which cuts into his To Hit), he shouldn't really bother rolling. And the Barbarian could pump it into +22 with Wolf Berserker-feat from UE.

In other words, you'll be looking at 2d6 (Large Guisarme)+15+whatever weapon abilities twice or average of 22 per hit with two likely hits; Touch AC better be near 30 if you wanna avoid that. Even with 18 Dex & Wis and +2 to Dex from Race & +2 from item and +1 Deflection to AC, you're looking at mere 21 Touch AC, which is unlike to make a difference. Then the primary AC might be in the high 20s (say, 26), and yeah... Even with the Str damage, +12 Touch Attacks and +16 actual attacks are over 50% to hit. And there's two of them.


And that's just one path for the Barbarian to take; maybe he's got Intimidating Rage and Immediate Rage and Imperious Command, giving up 2 points of that Str (still plenty high). Then you're ****ed for real. Note that the above build didn't use any feats except Improved Trip which is gained for free via Wolf Totem Barbarian. As soon as as the Swordsage approaches (Listen-check figures that out well enough), he Rages causing you to Cower and be unable to take actions. Then he repeats the above strikes, maybe combined with a Charge (the SS being unable to take actions and all, chances of punishing such a charge are quite low) and pummels the SS for Massive Damage; combined with the fact that the SS's AC is demolished by cowering, that's likely it.


Warblade - Max your concentration. At level 6, it will be 9
+2 con, +3 skill focus, +2 discipline, +2 blade meditation. In total, 18 concentration. Assuming you both have 14 con, fighter will have 42 HP, you have 50 HP. As soon as the battle starts, use Duel of Wills to penalize him (for extra bonus, disarm him with expert mind and watch him crawl to regain his weapon), as he will never beat your 18 concentration, then attack with insightful strike (d20+18 damage). On average, it will be 29, more than 50% of his hp. When he attacks you, use wall of blades to make his first attack miss, besides, even if he hits you can take it (as you have DR 2 and immunity to trips and rushes from stance). On second turn, mountain hammer strike him for 4d6+str damage to close the case, or regain your strike with swift action and hit him with insightful strike again. GG.

You're assuming the Fighter doesn't know what he's doing. You don't have Immunity, you merely have +10 against them and that's if you initiate Roots of the Mountain (level 3 stance, btw; you need a feat or a multiclass to acquire it by standard progression) after moving since it ends if you move.

Also, AC is relevant here; a Fighter can start the fight with a Tower Shield in hand, dropping it as a free action once it starts giving him +4 to AC on the first round. Barbarian could just maintain Total Defense out of combat likewise giving him +4 to AC on the first round (+6 if he has ranks in Tumble). Hitting isn't automatic if opponent doesn't want to be hit. You're still looking at ACs in the mid 20s.


And Dungeoncrasher Fighter...Knockback combined with PA enables getting some rather massive bonuses to Bull Rush which combined with the +4 from the feat mean that the Bull Rush will likely succeed. He then pushes you to ground while flying (because he's Dragonborn) and you take 8d6+~24 (3x8 Str) damage. That averages over your HP total.

We're also talking about a native Large Fighter here, meaning you better have Enlarge or you're looking at even worse odds of succeeding the Bull Rush. Or he could just move back Tumbling to avoid AoOs (it's a class skill thanks to Cityscape Web Enhancement) and ready an action, forcing you to break your Stance lest you want him retreat further and start pummeling you with ranged weapons he's much better at than you.

Also, Spiked Chain Fighter could have Combat Reflexes meaning he'll be taking an AoO on the Warblade while he's even just approaching, making a Trip-check before the Blade can assume Roots of the Mountain Stance.


Or, just max jumping, use tiger maneuvers with leaping dragon stance and just whack him with 7d6+str+bonuses (soaring raptor strike) two consecutive times. Even if you start a few paces apart, you can teleport to him (or from him, keeping him from using iteratives) by sudden leap. Case closed.

Sorry, with just pure E6, without a heap of feats core classes usually cannot touch ToB ones at all, as their one trick pony builds can be easily countered and their offense is just as good or better. When enemy can teleport, is invisible, immune to your trips/grapples, or plainly unhittable (and besides, when you do hit him, he has far more hp than you) then battle is a bit... one sided. Note that you assume them to have a pile of feats extending from advancing long behind pure E6 - but if you do, ToD classes can max their high level strikes/stances/tactical feats, gaining immunity to anything poor fighta is going to throw at them.

It seems to me like you have no idea what a strong Fighter/Barbarian is capable of. You think they need a ton of feats to do anything; that isn't true. All they need is their level-up feats and class features. Thanks to ACFs, both have plenty. We're talking optimized here; not some run-of-the-mill out-of-Core Fighter & Barbarian. There's a lot of support for the classes; they aren't the babies they were in Core.

Warblade, Crusader and SS can match Fighter and Barbarian, but they don't just WTFPWN Fighter and Barbarian in a PvP match.