Good-Aligned Person Who Wants To Destroy The World

[Leliel]

Well, obviously not a player character, but still...

I have always been a fan of the Hero Antagonist trope, as well as the Woobie Destroyer of Worlds (ie, a character who has very good reasons to want to annihilate the world.

So, I thought, why not combine them and create a villain who wants to annihilate the planet, but still qualifies for a place on the "Good" axis of DnD's alignment system.

Naturally, this is the kind of villain who wants to have another world to move the survivors to after he destroys the old one, but still pretty dangerous-after all, he can just point to where he shows up on the "detect alignment" spells and honestly say he's right. Of course, the world needs to be pretty horrible if he's allowed to think that way and still qualify as "Good", so there needs to be a balance between the two to show that he's being reckless, but that he still has a point.

So, how would you do this?

[Hat-Trick]

Have an Evil person who wants to stop him because the suffering in the world amuses him, or something along those lines.

[Thatguyoverther]

I would have him start evacuating people, forcibly if necessary. And detecting their alignment before letting them through the gate to wherever. Anyone Neutral or Good gets through anyone who pings evil doesn't.

He can then be reasonable sure that the people left behind are evil and by destroying the world he's destroying evil. Also something about an evil-free utopia.

[Kyeudo]

Simple. Your good-aligned villian believes that the world has become too evil. Destroying the world will allow it to be remade by his diety as a paradise. Any good person who dies will go to heaven, so while their deaths sadden him, he considers their deaths merely sending them to their eternal reward early. Make him devoted, but not crazy or fanatical, and your players may get confused and join him in his plans if you spin it right.

[term1nally s1ck]

Personally: Extremist Pally. {Scrubbed}

This is taken further, with their faith: They worship a LG deity (as stick-up-bum as you can find), and think any Evil or neutral people should be killed, and then from there move on to any Chaotic people as not contibuting towards world order, and then to neutral good, and then to people who don't worship their deity, then to non-clerics/paladins. Extreme side of Extreme.

Make it an organisation with an artifact of whatever that spell is that redeems fallen paladins at will.

[J.Gellert]

Evil primordial god of death threatens to destroy the "earth", devouring every soul and ending everyone's existence in all forms and shapes. No souls left, or souls that will be subjected to terrible torments for eternity.

Villain A is the last man standing of an ancient order sworn to protect the world against this kind of ending. They took a pledge that if all else fails, and there is no stopping the inevitable, they will destroy the world themselves. Maybe they believe at least the good people will go to Heaven then. Maybe they believe non-existence is preferrable to eternal torture. Maybe they believe in a cycle of life and the creation of a new, perfect world.

The PCs discover all this after they've stopped the Villain. What will they do? Go against the ancient evil with almost no chance of success, or continue the destruction plan?

If you want to be extra cruel... The PCs foil the Villain, and disrupt the plan so thoroughly that the world cannot be "saved by destruction". Then the death god devours the universe.

The end.

[Ubergeek]

EDIT: And of course, I get ninja'd. The post before me is pretty much what I was trying to convey. Firkraag get's a cookie.

I do this a lot actually. As a principle, I try to make all of my villains have some redeeming quality, and a few of them come out on the good side of the alignment scale.

For example, one villain in a game a ran was a kobold sorcerer with a personality strangely akin to Redcloak. He want to lead a rebellion against the greater humanoid races (humans, elves, etc.) to help the lower races (kobolds, goblins, drow, etc.) out of the Underdark, where they were banished long ago. It's worth noting this was before I had even heard of Order of the Stick.

The trick is that they need to believe they're doing the right thing. This can mean a couple of things. This villain could be under the assumption that all of a certain race are evil and need to be eradicated, (think Miko.) Alternatively, perhaps there is somebody lying to the villain, manipulating him/her into doing the things he does, forcing him to commit the deeds.

Or, finally, here's a hook. Let's say that there is something going on behind the scenes. Let's say the villain knows all about it, and the heroes don't. For example, the King of some country has made a contract with a Demon. He plans to unleash a power to destroy the world. The good-aligned villain discovers this plan, and only knows one thing. No matter the cost, no matter the sacrifices, the King must be stopped. He's good, but he's ruthless. He's willing to kill or torture if it means saving the world. Hell, he'll even blow up the entire country if it means stopping this King. The villain is labeled a traitor. He's a monster and has to be stopped. The King hires the PCs to track him down.

It's a little cliched, I know, but the details came from the top of my head. Maybe the truth isn't as clear. Maybe the villain really does seem terrible. Maybe he has a code the PCs don't agree with. But he has a goal. A legitimate goal. He is trying to save the world. You can work with this and improve it. Add your own details until it's original and creative. If this is done well, it's something I'd like to see.

[Lord_Gareth]

Afroakuma actually has a GREAT example of this in the Silver Hellstar - PM him about it. A summary follows:

Basically, the Silver Hellstar was created to damn entire world to the Nine Hells, thus providing fuel for Baator's war with the Abyss. A battle with the gods caused it to gain sentience. Horrified with what it'd been built to do, it refused to destroy the next world it came across - only to see it consumed by the Abyss. Torn between committing two evils, the Hellstar made a hard choice: now, when it invades worlds, it slaughters all the Good/Neutral aligned creatures it can, hoping to send them to their deserving afterlife before its weapon damns the rest of the world to Hell.

[DabblerWizard]

Well, obviously not a player character, but still...

I have always been a fan of the Hero Antagonist trope, as well as the Woobie Destroyer of Worlds (ie, a character who has very good reasons to want to annihilate the world.

Naturally, this is the kind of villain who wants to have another world to move the survivors to after he destroys the old one, but still pretty dangerous-after all, he can just point to where he shows up on the "detect alignment" spells and honestly say he's right. Of course, the world needs to be pretty horrible if he's allowed to think that way and still qualify as "Good", so there needs to be a balance between the two to show that he's being reckless, but that he still has a point.

So, how would you do this?


There are a few things to consider.

Who is the person making this decision? It sounds like your character needs a godly level of intelligence. Only an omniscient creature, one that can see all ends, would be able to adequately decide that a world deserves destroying. Lesser creatures may come to the same conclusion, but their decisions would rightly be considered rash, and irresponsible, because they wouldn't be able to take all options and all outcomes fully into account.

What makes the world worthy of annihilation? Are the people's actions so horrible that your character is giving up on them? Are their minds so fixated on evil that they cannot be turned towards righteous behavior? Is the problem part of the world itself, and not its people? Can the people not be saved? Who is to be saved? How is that determined?

[erikun]

If the world is full of zombies, or demons, or overrun by X destructive force, then a good-aligned person would likely want to see the world destroyed. It happens with the Abyss all the time. Most good aligned characters would want to see Ravenloft destroyed, although they may not know that there are good people living even there. This is mostly from outsiders of the plane, though.

Someone may think that the world needs to be destroyed to save the multiverse, for whatever reason, although this antagonist tends towards neutrality.

You could have a Cleric of Pelor/Zarus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) who does not know the true consequences of his actions. Ignorance of the end result, of disbelieving the party, is the trigger for most Good/Good fights.

Of course, you could just interpret Good as "believing what you are doing is right." In that case, it's far easier to see a Good antagonist, but then again, 90% of supervillians end up Good under that system anyways.

The problem I see with the "Good antagonist evacuating people from Evil world to destroy it" is that there isn't much reason for the PCs to fight him. Some parties will have reservations with leaving people behind, even Evil people, while other parties will just wish him luck and wander through the portal.

[Deme]

My idea is somewhat simmilar to the above, though for this to work, the character would have to have another world ready.

Basically, the world is a giant monster egg. Like, imagine something on the scale of the Great A'tuin, but pure evil. Very soon now, it's going to hatch, and will eat basically everything in the universe. Unless someone destroys its egg before it can hatch.

The character knows that, even if he can evacuate many people, there may not be a way to evacuate everyone, especially since this idea sounds mighty crazy. And even then, there's still all the plants and animals and whatever that would still have to die, not to mention the unborn destroyer of worlds. Saving everyone is an ideal that must be striven towards, but it's an impossible dream. Heck, due to likely-inevitable bad experiences in the past, maybe there's the question of "does everyone deserve to be saved?" But he knows he must do his best not to think that way, for in thinking that, he could well loose the purity of his cause and his own heart (I think it'd be more interesting for "him" to be aware of the tightrope he's walking, but that's just me).

And what about the people who will inevitably try to stop him? Some of them may be evil, but some will just be trying to save the world. They're just confused. What does he do then? He knows he cannot comprimise his goal -- but that danger, of becoming evil himself, no better than the eater of worlds but for scale, lingers in that, as well.

Not to mention...does he use this to his own advantage, setting up a world where he is king? He'd make a great king -- only he had the knowledge to prevent this catastrophe that he's trying to prevent. He saved the universe...that means he deserves it, doesn't he?

He knows he's going to do his best to save the world...but can he do it without becoming a villain in the process? ...and who knows: maybe this whole thing is a lie he believes in.

...Anyway, that's my uber-long idea. The goal I went in thinking about this was for someone who's a hero, equally capable of being tragic or not, depending on how he handles a lot of the choices I've gone on about here. I think he at least starts out blipping as good, but the whole idea is that staying this way is a real challenge. It'd make a pretty neat idea for a campaign, I think, if the PCs were all in this position together.

[Coidzor]

Or of being so successful that just by tipping the world to good upsets the balance enough that the world will go kaput just as surely as if it gets too lawful, chaotic, or evil. Or doing something above and beyond what adventurers normally do to evil temples and dread nexii basically allows one to actually cut off the primordial energy of the negative energy plane, something that seems good on the surface but means that, well, people won't die of old age or wounds but neither will they be youthful forever. Reminds me of this Magic the Gathering short story where the invention of death was actually a good thing since otherwise battlefields were full of the wailing of the wounded and butchered.

That whole great wheel idea, y'know.

[Hat-Trick]

The BBEG distributes weapons or devices that instantly teleport people to the new world to his minions. To everyone else it seems like he's slaughtering them all, but he's really just getting them out of harm's way.

[Ubergeek]

The BBEG distributes weapons or devices that instantly teleport people to the new world to his minions. To everyone else it seems like he's slaughtering them all, but he's really just getting them out of harm's way.

And since they're still alive, they don't end up in the afterlife, they can't be brought back to life, people assume their souls have been obliterated, uncreated, even.

Wait a minute...

[Crafty Cultist]

Your good aligned destroyer might believe that if the world destroyed, a new world would eventually form to take its place, and the resulting world would have a fresh start without having to worry about the anceint evils and selfish beings that his world allows to thrive.

Essentially, he believes that the good in his world is not enough to triumph over evil and a clean slate is the only way to go.

as for method, how about an artifact that can create portals between planes, supercharged to tear reality to peices?

[JonestheSpy]

Jack Chalker's Well of Souls series had an interesting take on this premise. Basically, interstellar war results in the fabric of the universe starting to unravel. It will take a while, but eventually everything will simply be erased as if it never were. It's possible that someone might figure out a way to counter this before everything is gone, but the odds are decidedly against it.

The protagonists know there's a way to turn the universe off and then restart it up again - reboot it, in other words. Everyone except the deinzens of a single planet would be gone, but at least they could recreate things instead of it all being gone forever. Heckuva choice, innit?

[Frozen_Feet]

Well, to extrapolate a bit from a world I'm building, you could have the world the characters live upon be the body of a sleeping, good-aligned god. Problem is, once it wakes up to recreate the universe, the current world will be destroyed. Your "villain" is either the god itself, its avatar, or someone who just wants the inevitable apocalypse over with so the Greater Good can advance.

Of course, to the characters it initially isn't any different than having a cosmic horror abomination eat their homes.

[Nhoj]

Your antagonist could have multiple personality disorder, or his mental stability was fragmented by torture giving him his flawed way of thinking. Possibly being Chaotic Good with Neutral Evil tendencies. Or whatever other options there may be.

[Leliel]

Well, I hate to bring up suggestions for my own thread, but I realized General Azimuth from Ratchet and Clank is a good example of what I'm trying to aim for.

He's a pretty heroic person when it comes down to it, but he started thinking along justifications the Tau would cringe at a looong time before the game started. More importantly, he's reckless-he hasn't exactly thought about the consequences of time travel, and he is all to happy to kill his own friends because he thinks he'll be able to undo the results of his actions later.

[NothingButCake]

Tilda Swinton as Gabriel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi1r8B5INfU): The only good thing about Constantine (besides Peter Stormare Lucifer).

Gabriel is working with the Antichrist to bring about mass destruction on Earth to remove humanity's complacency. Humankind will finally be forced to rise up to the occasion and to become worthy of God's love.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Good Omens has actual angels working to destroy the world, and rather eagerly, too, despite only having a 50% chance of victory.

[Zaydos]

I think somebody already said something similar, but go Galactus on them. The world is a juvenile form of a universe destroying monster/key to unleashing a universe destroying monster etc. He's destroying the world to save all existence. If you only want one prime material world there's still the outer and inner planes. As a good aligned character he would probably try to get at least all (or as many) good aligned people as possible off. The PCs could 1) be evil cultists, or 2) believe that the world can still be saved.

I actually toyed with the idea of doing this in Spelljammer. In the end my villain was going to be an evil super-lich from another cosmology who could leave if he wanted to but liked this universe. This was why he didn't hesitate to warn people, he just didn't care enough to.

But yeah I can see it with the world is something that will someday destroy the multiverse.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Personally: Extremist Pally. {Scrubbed}

Do you see the problem in this sentence, or should I point it out to you?

[drengnikrafe]

Magus, from Chrono Trigger.

Well, at least it LOOKS like he's trying to destory the world. He is trying to destroy parts of it. And yet, I think he's actually goodish. Well, at least neutral. But definitely not evil. Just make sure the villages he attacks are monster-based. And the gigantic evil being he summons... well... goes similarly to how it went in that game. Except for the being stopped. Unless you want that as part of the plot.... Ahh, now I'm talking in circles.

[RandomNPC]

watch the movie serenity, just for the "Operative" character.

he flat out admits he's not a good person ut he kills to create a better place for those he doesn't kill. just change the wording and you're set.

"I know i'm not a NICE person, but i'm creating a better future for these people. One where people like me will not be needed, I know I have no place in this future, and I'm ok with that."

there ya go. where i caps-locked he origonally said good. and i kinda winged it, haven't seen the movie in a while.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

watch the movie serenity, just for the "Operative" character.

he flat out admits he's not a good person ut he kills to create a better place for those he doesn't kill. just change the wording and you're set.

"I know i'm not a NICE person, but i'm creating a better future for these people. One where people like me will not be needed, I know I have no place in this future, and I'm ok with that."

there ya go. where i caps-locked he origonally said good. and i kinda winged it, haven't seen the movie in a while.

The Operative: I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done. One of the greatest villains ever, because he really seemed like he was a good guy, despite what he said.

[Fawsto]

Off topic: Someone has to bring those Image Memorials to Master Gygax back on...


On topic: Remember that conflicts between equal factions are normal... Now, you could see a reason to destroy a planet while being good. I just can't think of such reason.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

On topic: Remember that conflicts between equal factions are normal... Now, you could see a reason to destroy a planet while being good. I just can't think of such reason.The hells are losing. The mortal plane is steadily growing worse, but as it is, the in the aligned planes Good is winning and the multiverse is steadily growing more good. The material plane is the only non-aligned plane that is steadily growing more evil, and if it falls fully to evil, it will reverse the trend of the war, giving Evil a better shot at the entire multiverse.

[Mando Knight]

1.) Humans are bastards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards). The world, as is, is beyond redemption and must be destroyed.

2.) The Destroyer wishes to create a new world to replace this. In a place where there are multiple deities and such with the power to do so or interfere with such, he probably has a pact with at least one of them. Or, could be one.

3.) The Destroyer likely finds someone of worth remaining in the world, and has them evacuate.

Of course, this story is older than dirt (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanDirt), and the Big Good "Villain" is rarely, if ever, portrayed as the antagonist. If you've no idea what I'm talking about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark), then read some mythology. Any (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth) culture's mythology.

[Randel]

An idea:

End the war of Good and Evil by destroying Neutral.

A Paladin... or better yet a Lawful Good Wizard. He was Lawful Good... or maybe at least thought he was. Selfless, Loyal, Honest almost to a fault and always willing to help others. However also very antisocal or a Loner (low charisma score) the art of conversation is lost on him and while most people learn how to compromise and give-and-take then he almost always gave even at the expense of his own dreams.

He had few friends but those ones were friends that he stuck with through thick and thin. Then one day something happened, maybe some of his friends died in a war, maybe one of them betrayed him (at least seemingly or even unintentionally), or they had to do something terrible and evil for the Greater Good or loyalty to their King.

His idealism was shattered. He knew then and there that the world was not Good... it was not even a distinct Black and White morality... and that terrible terrible gray area... what the hell was morality? Just something that changes with the times? Just something relative to whatever side of the fence you're on?

No... there were the other Planes. The plane of Lawfull Good, the planes of the various Evils. While this imperfect material plane was filled with gray areas and relative goods and evils based on who you were... the rules were different for the other Planes.

He knows that there is a Lawful Good afterlife and that its a real place. He's Been there, he's traveled to Heaven with magic and spoke to the dead friend of his to seek forgiveness for some past misdeed... and wept tears of joy when he knows that this place is good. That the rules in Heaven are built around goodness.

Thus he got an idea: The material plane is the gray area of the universe, the mortal races were the elements of change... they were the things that the universe revolves around and are in turn centered by the planes of morality.

Soo... if you move everyone to the plane of Lawful Good and then destroy the material plane then Good will triumph! Everyone in the Lawful Good plane will become lawful good through sheer environment! Even the worst rebels would be true neutral. With everyone becoming Good then the evil deities would be deprived of their worshipers, the Evil Gods would waste away to nothing. The tortures of the Evil afterlives would fade away as nobody would die evil again! Plus, nobody would ever be separated from their loved ones... those who lived in the Lawful Good plane would die and be sent to the same Lawful Good afterlife! Nobody would be evil! Nobody would lose their family and friends ever again! Evil will fall! Good will TRIUMPH!


But to destroy the material plane... even for a good cause such as this would be evil. How to do it? Would it work? Would the agents of evil find out his plan and try to stop him?

Or... would the agents of good seek to prevent the Apocalypse he seeks to create?

No, the benefits of this far outweigh the negatives. An infinite future of goodness outweights a possibly infinite future of neutrality. Evil is always trying to destroy the world, why not beat it at its own game? Even... even if he fails then what the hell? So the heroes would stop him from saving the universe? It will still be there for someone else to try later.


So, his plan is to destroy the Material Plane, but first he would have to evacuate it. Maybe start a war, a zombie apocolypse or some other disaster that would kill people (sending them to whatever afterlife they are destined for) and meanwhile he would create a permanant portal to the Lawful Good afterlife to evacuate everyone else.

Sure there would be wars and killing, and he plans to start several natural disasters in motion... worldwide ones like the oceans turning to blood or the earths surface shattering and burning all that lives in molten magma!

But thats not the BIG thing, no turning the air into acid is nothing compared to the thing he plans to unleash... in fact it's a mercy. People killed by utter incineration will just die and go to the afterlife.

He plans to cast the Anti-Genesis spell.

A spell that would rip apart the very fabric of the material plane and cancel out its existence. Once the spell is complete then every person, every soul, every speck of dust would simply cease to exist as if it was never there. No Epic or divine magic can restore it from that. Once that was cast then all the planes of morality would be severed from the Material Plane and with everyone on the plane of Lawful Good then Good would win! The plane of Lawful Good would become the new center of the universe and evil would stagnate and vanish.

Granted... he would have to stay on the Material Plane to cast the Anti-Genesis spell. He would have to look at the destroyed and ruined world he had created and speak the words that would end it utterly... along with himself.

But after all that... after his miserable and sinful life (actually before his Heroic BSOD he's probably the nicest guy around... or at least so anti-social that he never had a chance to actually hurt anyone) then he would have no place in the new Lawful Good universe... and dying normally would surely conciene his soul to the Evil afterlife.

No... if he's going to die then he wants to utterly cease to be... he couldn't live with the afterlife he deserves.


So yeah, he'd probably be a sort of meek and helpful but incredibly powerful wizard. One that spent his life researching and studying books and making food and water traps or other stuff until he hit Epic level or so though research or RP experience. Then he starts working to basically ruin the Material Plane secretly so that he can evacuate as many people as possible (either physically through plane shift or by killing them) and then he stays behind and ends the world and himself with the Anti-Genesis spell.

He might have some mechanical golems, intelligent but soulless constructs who will stick with him to the end. They might have helped out on his plan, doing tasks he couldn't trust (or wouldn't wish on the conscious of) anyone else. While he stands in the shielded tower that overlooks the ruined and lifeless world he created... his golems stand ready to fight anyone who tries to stop him, simply to buy time until the incantation is done. One might even stop and explain what his master aims to do, let the players know that Heaven awaits them on the other side of the Gate. That every second they remain they risk spontaniously ceasing to exist... and even if they do kill the wizard all they are doing is dooming him to an eternity in Hell... and even that would not restore the barren and ruin land.


If they fight the wizard... and if they can get past his defences to stop him from casting the spell then he Will try to kill them... for their own good. What happens next...

maybe the Anti-Genesis spell could be misfired to re-create the Material plane, making it a brand new world for the people to colonize again.

maybe it un-creates the wizard himself. Erasing him from existence and letting the ruined Material Plane remain until some day that it can be remade with sweat and hard work.

or somebody else has plans for what will happen and is taking advantage of this moment to remake the world their image.

[holywhippet]

Maybe not quite "wanting" to destroy the world, but how about someone making better and stronger weapons - I mean nuke level weapons. They are making them for the protection of their people but unaware that a) said people are willing to use them for more than self defence and b) said weapons might have the unexepected side effect of wrecking the world if overused.

[J.Gellert]

The problem with many ideas is this: Alignment is not subjective, but objective. If I think I am doing a lawful good action, I am not necessarily lawfully good-aligned. And before we get in an alignment debate, see: Miko.

So in this case, the villain who is good-aligned cannot be merely believing he is doing good. His actions must actually be good.

If there is one way... the only way that a world-destructive plan can be good-aligned, to me, (and even then, it's debateable - I won't insist) is for it to prevent a much, much worse disaster.

In reality, not in the villain's disturbed mind.

[Frozen_Feet]

Really, the whole scenario requires the PCs to either deny the goodness of the antagonist, becoming evil themselves, or they have to give in. Against a godly opponent, whatever the PCs do might ultimately be futile, and they have to come to terms with it and/or burn with the world.

[Hat-Trick]

An idea:

End the war of Good and Evil by destroying Neutral.

A Paladin... or better yet a Lawful Good Wizard. He was Lawful Good... or maybe at least thought he was. Selfless, Loyal, Honest almost to a fault and always willing to help others. However also very antisocal or a Loner (low charisma score) the art of conversation is lost on him and while most people learn how to compromise and give-and-take then he almost always gave even at the expense of his own dreams.

*big snip*


If they fight the wizard... and if they can get past his defences to stop him from casting the spell then he Will try to kill them... for their own good. What happens next...

maybe the Anti-Genesis spell could be misfired to re-create the Material plane, making it a brand new world for the people to colonize again.

maybe it un-creates the wizard himself. Erasing him from existence and letting the ruined Material Plane remain until some day that it can be remade with sweat and hard work.

or somebody else has plans for what will happen and is taking advantage of this moment to remake the world their image.

Another idea to supplement this:

The Material Plane is the anchor that all other planes are tied to and destroying it destroys everything else and the wizard doesn't know it, but the PC's have been told by the overdeities who originally created the multiverse.

[Wardog]

There was a fairly recent Doctor Who episode where the Daleks were trying to destroy the entier universe of reality. Earth was (somehow) a critical component of their "reality bomb", so UNIT/Martha Jones was prepared to destroy it to prevent them.


Also, in a sci-fi story I'm developing* the background includes one major civilization nuking** their own planet. However, this was somewhat justified as it was being over-run by trans-dimensional (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/all-consumingmonstrosities, and this was the only feasible way to a) ensure that at least some of the evacuees could escape without being persued, b) destroy most of the invaders, and c) prevent any surviving enemies using the strategically-vital planet for themselves.



* As in, making up cool stories in my head, and writing down about, oh, four or five pages of notes in as many years.

** Or more preceisely, ripping open a whole in reality that would not only devestate the planet itself but also render the entier system a no-go area for millenia to come. Plus various other things to ensure that the planet itself would effectively become a death world.

[randomhero00]

Unless you're going to really interpret spells "creatively" there shouldn't/isn't a way for a single good mage to destroy an entire world, at least not without major artifacts and/or help. I'm also not convinced a good person would ever destroy a world even if it was a world ruled by evil. They'd try to find a way to fight it, but not destroy everything... Best bet is to use a plot device...come up with some special ritual/artifact/mentor.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Unless you're going to really interpret spells "creatively" there shouldn't/isn't a way for a single good mage to destroy an entire world, at least not without major artifacts and/or help. I'm also not convinced a good person would ever destroy a world even if it was a world ruled by evil. They'd try to find a way to fight it, but not destroy everything... Best bet is to use a plot device...come up with some special ritual/artifact/mentor.The problem is the earth qualifies as a target for many spells. Things like meta-abused Orb of Acid can deal enough damage to actually break it. No questionable interpretations whatsoever.

[golentan]

Hey, Tengen Toppa!

By which I mean, make a less extreme oppression version of Lordgenome. He's discovered an ancient evil that absolutely WILL destroy the multiverse if the multiverse comes to it's attention. It's attention is gained almost entirely by the number of living souls, in a cumulative effect. Having exhausted alternatives (starting with "Kill It" and moving down the list) he is at solution ZZ: Kill 99% of the population in such a way to restrict growth, allowing at least some of the multiverse to continue existing while seeking a better solution.

He can be open to suggestion for other things, but if they have no chance of success he won't keep listening and will start shooting.

Alternately: Emphatic Anti-Samsara character. Seeing that souls inevitably lose identity and are recycled, and that the soul system engenders nothing but suffering on a cosmic scale (even the gods are impermanent, everything is strife between good and evil, and all is destruction), he's trying to get everyone on the fast track to nirvana by trashing the entire planar system.

It... actually sort of works taking the DnD afterlife as written (in some sources anyway), and applying some philosophy. It's motivated by benevolence, and recognition that you aren't destroying anything that wouldn't be destroyed anyway, multiple times, and prolly more painfully as well.

[cupkeyk]

How about Sagato from Magic Knight Rayearth.

The world's continued existence requires the sacrifice of a preselected (destined) young virgin who in thsi case is the villain's lover. The Villain kidnaps his lover; the lover being a willing sacrifice. The world starts to disintigrate and the heroes must chase after villain, kill him and sacrifice virgin.

[Oracle_Hunter]

So, basic problem: destroying the world is going to kill Innocents.


Good characters and creatures protect innocent life

Now, there are ways around this - "temporarily" killing folks by placing their souls in jars, but fully intending to restore them to as-good (if not better!) bodies once The Cleansing is complete - as an example.

Of course, this runs into Problem #2

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings.
I don't know how many people you have to kill before you fail the "respect for life" test, but I imagine it has to be less than an entire world.

So, if you want to make a Good world-destroyer (as opposed to a Neutral who thinks he's doing it for "good" reasons) you're going need to find a way to do it that doesn't involve a lot of killing. Or, at the very least, one that does not foreseeably require a lot of killing.

The best you could do, IMHO, is to have an Epic Wizard create a "Paradise Dimension" and then have him plan on enforcing migration by destroying the old world. Y'see, he'd give everyone plenty of warning and make migration easy as pie - and if people are resistant in the end, he figures he can probably shove them into his World before he has to "shut the door" - so to speak :smallamused:

[Randel]

Hmm... what if instead of destroying the world or killing everybody, he wants to absorb everyone into one singular entity or something?

Like in Neon Genesis Evangelion where the big plot was to pull off the Human Instrumentation thing and turn everyone into orange tang so that they could communicate with eachother telepathically and be free of the barriers that seperate people.

Or the borg who want to assimilate everyone into their collective (well, thats how they are sort of played later on after the plots got all screwy in Star Trek).

Or the Cybermen from the new Doctor Who episodes who want to put an end to discrimination by race, religion, and gender by making everyone equal.


His plan could be to cast some sort of world-wide Domination effect that forces everyone to be Good.

Or he might learn of some alien abomination or an alignment of the planes that would bring about a thousand years of undeath... and decides to petrify everyone into statues where they could wait out the thousand years until it all ends and then get restored (eventually... maybe... well if anyone survives then a few billion Stone to Flesh spells ought to get everyone back. But even if they are stuck as statues forever at least they aren't getting turned into Shadows or something).

Or maybe an Elder God is coming and he's figured out a way to temporarily fuse Chaos Beasts into a single more powerful creature. His idea is to start a Chaos Beast apocalypse that turns everyone into slavering masses of mutating protoplasm... then they start fusing together and when the Evil God manifests on the material plane then he finds himself facing a 2,000,000,000 HD Chaos Beast Ultra Megamonster who proceeds to pound him into submission harder than anything else in existence. Then when the job is done then the process reverses and everyone returns to normal... if a little driven mad from being turned into silly putty and forced to beat up an Elder Evil. But hey, going utterly and irrevocably insane is marginally better than having your soul eaten... right?

Or an Epic Bard who wants to broadcast his song into everyones minds to make them his fanatic followers so that he can unite everyone under one single nation. Sure its a nation founded on song and dance but those are the universal languages! Unfortunately the massive redistribution of ideology would also result in pretty much every deity around wasting away... except for the chaotic neutral God of music who's getting his victory song written for the occasion. While Epic Bards got a fairly decent plan that doesn't directly involve anyone dying (he's basically just going to be broadcasting his music around the world) and his plan involves creating worldwide peace by bringing everyone together... the way the gods are set up means that if anyone ever does manage to unite everyone under one 'faith' then all the gods of nature and fire and death start dying and that has incalculable damages to the the elements of nature itself!

In short, his plan is pretty straightforward, nonviolent, and maybe a bit self-gratifying but ultimately a decent one. Unfortunately, his charisma skill is higher than his intelligence and he didn't foresee the side effect that if he did manage to 'save the world for good' then reality would collapse and destroy everything... he would ascend to become a god and the current god of Music would turn into some kind of over deity... but almost everyone else would get wiped out of existence when everyone simultaneously forgets about Life, Death, and Time.

Epic Bard (now a deity floating in the astral plane amidst the exploded remains of the world): I accidentally destroyed the world when I usurped all of the gods simultaneously with my song... who the hell designed this universe so that that could happen?!


New Overdeity of Song:
The Old Creator made the world
with dragons, knights, and witches
but all creations come unfurled
if one exploits the glitches

The other gods are dead and gone
good riddance to them, I say.
I shall open my mouths and sing the song
that creates the world my way!

[golentan]

So, basic problem: destroying the world is going to kill Innocents.



Now, there are ways around this - "temporarily" killing folks by placing their souls in jars, but fully intending to restore them to as-good (if not better!) bodies once The Cleansing is complete - as an example.

Of course, this runs into Problem #2

I don't know how many people you have to kill before you fail the "respect for life" test, but I imagine it has to be less than an entire world.

So, if you want to make a Good world-destroyer (as opposed to a Neutral who thinks he's doing it for "good" reasons) you're going need to find a way to do it that doesn't involve a lot of killing. Or, at the very least, one that does not foreseeably require a lot of killing.

The best you could do, IMHO, is to have an Epic Wizard create a "Paradise Dimension" and then have him plan on enforcing migration by destroying the old world. Y'see, he'd give everyone plenty of warning and make migration easy as pie - and if people are resistant in the end, he figures he can probably shove them into his World before he has to "shut the door" - so to speak :smallamused:

But respect for life could mean taking the path with the least loss of life. Which may mean killing: There are ways to set it up that way.

If you are a rational, good being in a crapsack, evil prone world, you can have a fully justified reason for all sorts of things. Paladins don't fall for hacking up humanoids on adventures without stopping to ask questions even if the fellow isn't evil, they do for doing the same thing in a town even if the fellow they hacked up was evil. Why? Both are blatantly disregardful of the life of another, but one probably prevents greater loss of life.

Hey, here's an idea. Not a villain, but an antagonist for sure. Village rallies to mug the adventurers: Their children are starving, and selling one of the greaves on the fighter's armor would feed the county for years.

[Fawsto]

Ah yes...


I Just have to say that loosing the hope to redeem the corupt world is a step towards neutrality. Not being neutral, but a "step" towards neutrality. Remember the Exalted Deeds.

[Oracle_Hunter]

If you are a rational, good being in a crapsack, evil prone world, you can have a fully justified reason for all sorts of things. Paladins don't fall for hacking up humanoids on adventures without stopping to ask questions even if the fellow isn't evil, they do for doing the same thing in a town even if the fellow they hacked up was evil. Why? Both are blatantly disregardful of the life of another, but one probably prevents greater loss of life.
If a Paladin routinely chooses lethal force as a first response to any situation - and not just ones where combat is either forced on him, or the most reasonable line of response - then he should fall.

I mean, how much clearer does "respect for life" need to be? :smallconfused:

[golentan]

If a Paladin routinely chooses lethal force as a first response to any situation - and not just ones where combat is either forced on him, or the most reasonable line of response - then he should fall.

I mean, how much clearer does "respect for life" need to be? :smallconfused:

Bolding mine. Also, respect for life has so many meanings. Is it more respectful to life to keep them alive in spite of tremendous, unendurable pain? Or is it more respectful to spare them torture by letting them die?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Bolding mine. Also, respect for life has so many meanings. Is it more respectful to life to keep them alive in spite of tremendous, unendurable pain? Or is it more respectful to spare them torture by letting them die?
Good question - different people may go about it in different ways. Generally, I'd go with "as the patient wishes" - referring to the "respect the dignity of sentient beings" clause.

My point was that violence, particularly lethal violence, is destructive to life. It is hard to believe that any individual who, without provocation, resorts to violence to solve their problems is being "respectful of life." Perhaps you can find a definition of "respect life" that involves punching people in the face every time they give you lip, but I doubt it'll pass the "smell test."

If you go into war, nobody expects you to ask the enemy to surrender every fight - it is not always practical, and is a good way to get yourself killed. However, Good characters should only use violence when necessary - not merely when it is easiest way or the fastest way to deal with a problem. Not taking life unnecessarily is going to be "respectful of life" under any definition of the phrase you can proffer - which is why Blood Knights (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight) are never "good" people, even when they do good.

[golentan]

But again, my point was that it is possible to engineer (as a DM) a situation where (in my original example) more life hastens the death of all things, and the status quo results in (still) rapid destruction.

Being unable to prevent people from having babies, and with the default situation killing absolutely everyone anyway (and in the most hideous way possible), and having exhausted other solutions, the obvious stopgap which preserves the greatest amount of life is to cull the population (maybe by lottery, maybe by locate city bombs sans negative levels, survivors go into protection, maybe by selecting the "most good" people) to a level that won't kill everyone.

It doesn't have to be the first option. It shouldn't be, in fact. I see such a character doing their duty to life as they best see it, and when free committing suicide over the guilt (sort of like the one general in "World War Z"). But when confronted, they'll show what they know, and ask what else could possibly be done.