Question about Blood Oaths of Vengeance

[Conuly]

Let's say that two or more people swear a BOoV against the same person, place, or thing. And they skip off and forget about it, like Eugene. Now they're stuck hanging around in the anteroom to the afterlife (again, like Eugene) until somebody fulfills the oath, right?

But... what if the person who destroys whatever-it-is is only a descendant to one of them? Does one of them get to move on while the other is left hanging around indefinitely because there's no longer anything to fulfill?

Or, heck, what about Eugene? If tomorrow, Xykon trips, falls, and dies in the slapstick scene of the century (and let's assume the phylactery has been destroyed or something), does Eugene NEVER get to leave the cloud? Or is it assumed that once Xykon's dealt with, even though neither Eugene nor his descendants actually destroyed him, the oath is fulfilled?

[TriForce]

Fate (or in this case, plot) dictates that if 2 people swear a blood oath seperatly, without knowledge of each other, their descendants (who are 1 male and 1 female) will find each other, fall in love and work together to save the universe, once and for all... convienient no?

[Meg]

And if they're the same gender, a belt of gender changing will fall in their lap. The universe has its way of working these things out.

And on a more serious note, I dunno. I've wondered the same thing myself.

[SaintRidley]

Would make for an interesting story.

Especially if they found out about each other. Probably end up fighting each other to guarantee their own passage instead of working together.

[Conuly]

Would make for an interesting story.

Especially if they found out about each other. Probably end up fighting each other to guarantee their own passage instead of working together.

That'd be amusing if they both lost because of their infighting :smallamused:


And if they're the same gender, a belt of gender changing will fall in their lap.

Well, not necessarily.

[Meg]

Well, not necessarily.

I was assuming that they'd just have a baby and call it a day.

[silversaraph]

I was assuming that they'd just have a baby and call it a day.

Call it a day?

[Meg]

Well, you know what I mean.

[Conuly]

Well, you know what I mean.

Raising a kid to 18 to accomplish the Blood Oath for both of them seems like much harder work than just destroying Xykon (or whatever) together.

[Daefos]

Raising a kid to 18 to accomplish the Blood Oath for both of them seems like much harder work than just destroying Xykon (or whatever) together.

It would, however, carry a much lower chance of suffering fatal injuries.

[Zeful]

Call it a day?

Yeah like Friday, it's an unusual name for a kid.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yeah like Friday, it's an unusual name for a kid.

I once knew a girl names Tuesday...

Yeah, we're straying afield. A bit. :smallamused:

I wonder if you could get the BOoV amended after death? The ante-room does seem to have quite a bit of space, but after a few hundred centuries of unfulfilled Blood Oaths, even that could get filled. Afterall, the Oath requires that someone actually deal with the problem, and not just wait for the Subject of the Oath to just keel over of old age, or wander in front of a bus or runaway wagon.

What happens to the Barbarian of the Tundra who took an Oath to avenge himself against some critter that killed his entire family and Tribe? One that later went extinct due to Global Warming/Cooling or something?

[newcresty]

Eugene isn't out of heaven because didn't kill Xykon, it was for stop trying, Roy was allowed in without killing the lich, but he kept trying. So i think, if two guys swore an oath against the same individual, and both really try to fulfill it, they would be allowed in when the skeleton-in-black-robe-with-a-sctyhe come knocking their doors

[Belkster11]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html

The deva explains it best.

I think that if two guys...okay, let's call them Bob and George. They do the BOfV and tried to kill Xykon, but failed. They get to go to heaven.

Now, if they gave up like Eugene, but their descendants killed Xykon, I think that, yes they get to go to the afterlife.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

But I think it would depend on the descendants knowing that they have a BOfV to fulfill, and it may be many, many generations before it happens as Eugene's "girlfriend" Violet revealed when her great-great granddaughter sundered the sword that devoured her father's soul.

[Conuly]

Yes, I realize that Eugene is lazy. I get how the blood oath works if you die trying to fulfill it, but fail.

But what if, having already been locked out of the afterlife for not even bothering to fulfill the oath, some UNRELATED PERSON who doesn't even know you fulfills it? What if the person you wanted to avenge yourself on dies of natural causes? Then what? Or, what if your kid wants to die trying to fulfill the oath, but can't because some other lose got there first?

[B.I.T.T.]

Well keep in mind, folks, that giving up/not giving up was only part of the reason Roy got in and Eugene didn't. Let's not overlook the fact that Eugene is the one who actually swore the oath. Roy just sort of had it dropped at his feet. Come to think of it, he had it dropped at his feet so he could drop it at his sister's feet but I digress.

Roy got in because he died trying to fulfill an oath he never asked for. So part of the reason (probably) Eugene didn't get in is that in addition to just sort of crossing it off his "To-Do" list and forgetting it is that he was the one who started the whole "Blood Oath of Vengence" in the first place.

Also it seems to depend on the agent you're dealing with. Kind like real life. You might have some auto insurance agents who will let you use your insurance on certain things you're not technically supposed to due to circumstance beyond your control, versus some who will not let you use your insurance on certain things you're supposed to be allowed to because you used a purple ink pen to sign your policy and you're supposed to use either blue or black. So Eugene's agent may have been a bit of a stickler for the rules, whereas Roy's was a bit more of a "let it slide just this once" person.

EDIT: So in this example it might depend on who the people talk to.

P.S. Do I think about this stuff too much?

[Mariel Dragon]

P.S. Do I think about this stuff too much?

Nope. I always wondered what an unrelated person fulfilling the BOoV would do the person who swore it in the first place. My guess is, that at least in OOtSverse, the assigned deva him/her/itself gets to decide it.
And yes, that is a lame answer :smallwink:.

[Conuly]

EDIT: So in this example it might depend on who the people talk to.

P.S. Do I think about this stuff too much?

No, actually, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if there's some sort of appeals process, if you can't fulfill your oath because the person or thing is already gone, that you can do some sort of make-up work or something instead?

[Zxo]

The deva said that they don't punish people for inefficiency, it's the intention and effort put into fulfilling the oath that matters, so there's no problem if different people have the same BOoV. They can all be trying. I think the oath is forgiven if the enemy is killed by someone else or dies from other causes, otherwise people like Eugene would have to hang out in that waiting room forever, which would be rather cruel and inconsistent with how the LG afterlife works. Their system of judging as shown by Roy's deva is based very much on common sense, not on sticking to the law literally whether it makes sense or not. It may differ for other alignments - I imagine LN people may be judged differently in their afterlife with regard to stuff like BOoV.

[awibs]

It would, however, carry a much lower chance of suffering fatal injuries.

Except for the woman, in this era of generic "days of yore" high fantasy pseduo-mideval and therefore previous to modern medecine.

I agree that the Force of Plot would prevent Xykon from dying in the slapstick scene of the century, as well as the idea of somehow bringing the two people together, probably while fighting against each other as suggested, until the totally unexpected and unifying ending.

Unless you are George R. R. Martin.

Then the good shall receive no justice, and more the plot screams for the good guy's redemption, the more tortured souls shall wander the earth.

Yeah, if the Giant were GRRM, the next four books would develop the heart-rending backstories of 5 other characters with BOoV's against Xykon, and they and all their descendants would die horribly fighting the good fight. Then Xykon would die in the "slapstick scene of the century" or whatever, NO ONE would get to rest in peace, and he would take a five year hiatus while trying to untangle some kind of ending for his nonplot.

But in OOTS-verse, I think it plot-physics works in ways that are good for Elan :>

[Kish]

Except for the woman, in this era of generic "days of yore" high fantasy pseduo-mideval and therefore previous to modern medecine.
Really. You're betting on healing magic powerful enough to cure all injuries and raise the dead being unable to do anything at all for any of the effects of childbirth?

It always gives me a headache when people act as though a D&D world=an authentic real-world medieval setting in any detail not otherwise specified, largely because any detail specified about a D&D setting invariably is otherwise specified.

[The Glyphstone]

Except for the woman, in this era of generic "days of yore" high fantasy pseduo-mideval and therefore previous to modern medecine.


But then again, it depends on what sourcebooks you allow and what you let Cure spells do. I'm almost certain the BoEF has a specific spell to ensure safe and painless childbirth.

[awibs]

Really. You're betting on healing magic powerful enough to cure all injuries and raise the dead being unable to do anything at all for any of the effects of childbirth?

It always gives me a headache when people act as though a D&D world=an authentic real-world medieval setting in any detail not otherwise specified, largely because any detail specified about a D&D setting invariably is otherwise specified.

Naw, Raise Dead doesn't make the original injury non-fatal! There'd be nothing to raise if she didn't die.

Also, it makes me laugh when people fail their Detect Sarcasm checks enough to get a headache from thinking statements like "era of generic "days of yore" high fantasy pseudo-medieval" means *real-world medieval.* Please do tell: which of the 8 centuries of the real-world medieval period and which part of the real world ('cause you know, the saxons were doing the exact same things as the normans, and the vikings, and the gauls, and the goths, and the visigoths) did you think I was talking about when I said "generic days of yore high fantasy pseduo-medieval", pray? We can hardly get into a tedious internet debate about death in childbed rates if I don't know what to look up anal-retentive statistics about!

[Turkish Delight]

Except for the woman, in this era of generic "days of yore" high fantasy pseduo-mideval and therefore previous to modern medecine.

Eh. The realities of the middle ages typically have about as much impact on 'High Fantasy' settings as Star Wars does on NASA. That goes double for this setting, with it's endless smashing of the fourth wall and references to modern culture.

So if you're a woman, the only fear you need have of childbirth is if your untimely, tragic death somehow serves the plot.

[Asta Kask]

Except for the woman, in this era of generic "days of yore" high fantasy pseudo-medieval and therefore previous to modern medicine.

Going up against Xykon is almost certain death. For anyone. It was not uncommon for women in medieval society to have five or six children, so it's not almost certain death.

However, as Kish points out, this is moot anyway since the Sticksverse is not a generic pseudo-medieval society.

[Kish]

Also, it makes me laugh when people fail their Detect Sarcasm checks enough to get a headache from thinking statements like "era of generic "days of yore" high fantasy pseudo-medieval" means *real-world medieval.*
Are you familiar with Poe's Law?

[awibs]

So if you're a woman, the only fear you need have of childbirth is if your untimely, tragic death somehow serves the plot.

Haha this is an absolutely true and valid point. Tragic death would be a high risk in the case of developing the backstory of a major hero going up against the major villian.

[PallElendro]

I have a question everyone will be pondering. :smallbiggrin:
If every heir of the oath-er dies, will the people bound with the oath still be out for eternity, or do you need the oath-ee to be eliminated by anyone? And if someone other than the oath-ers heirs defeat the oath-ee, will the oath-er still be out?