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Swordgleam
2009-12-27, 10:52 PM
This was inspired by several of the alignment threads, but didn't seem to fit in any of them.

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that this is a world with the Detect Alignment spell, so there's some completely objective measurement of alignment.

Here's some examples of what I'm thinking of:

A guy who thinks he's a carefree Chaotic Good, fighting the good fight for freedom, but in reality is so lazy and self-interested that his support for the "good fight" never quite gets beyond the realm of idle boasts. Maybe he was once truly CG and has now become TN through inaction, or maybe he was fooling himself from the start.

A guard who believes himself to be LN, supporting the law above all else, but whose methods of lawkeeping have slipped over time from neutral to evil. He does what he does because he believes in the law, and never for a second thinks of himself as evil, but his actions are those of an LE person.

A mercenary who believes herself to be TN, out only for herself with no interest in the world, but whose loyalty to her companions and the good causes they champion means her actions are all NG. She doesn't think of herself as good, but she never does anything evil and she usually ends up taking the righteous path even when a more neutral option would be slightly more profitable.


Are these people the alignments they believe themselves to be? It probably matters whether alignment is caused by action or intention. But people can even lie to themselves about their reasons for doing things - the mercenary might tell herself she's championing a just cause because it will make her cleric friend happy, but she's really doing it because she believes in it, too.

Can someone ever be surprised by the results of a "detect alignment" spell cast on themself?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-27, 10:58 PM
Depends. :smallwink: Some DMs will make it able to be confused, others won't.
I'd rule that they can be wrong, but that enough evidence can convince them otherwise. That said, it would be entirely possible to have a 'Paladin' that's actually a Blackguard and is convinced he's on the side of good, anyone who tells him otherwise is lying, and in general is Miko advanced by about 6 months.

Riffington
2009-12-27, 11:01 PM
This was inspired by several of the alignment threads, but didn't seem to fit in any of them.

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that this is a world with the Detect Alignment spell, so there's some completely objective measurement of alignment.

Here's some examples of what I'm thinking of:

A guy who thinks he's a carefree Chaotic Good, fighting the good fight for freedom, but in reality is so lazy and self-interested that his support for the "good fight" never quite gets beyond the realm of idle boasts. Maybe he was once truly CG and has now become TN through inaction, or maybe he was fooling himself from the start.

A guard who believes himself to be LN, supporting the law above all else, but whose methods of lawkeeping have slipped over time from neutral to evil. He does what he does because he believes in the law, and never for a second thinks of himself as evil, but his actions are those of an LE person.

A mercenary who believes herself to be TN, out only for herself with no interest in the world, but whose loyalty to her companions and the good causes they champion means her actions are all NG. She doesn't think of herself as good, but she never does anything evil and she usually ends up taking the righteous path even when a more neutral option would be slightly more profitable.


Are these people the alignments they believe themselves to be? It probably matters whether alignment is caused by action or intention. But people can even lie to themselves about their reasons for doing things - the mercenary might tell herself she's championing a just cause because it will make her cleric friend happy, but she's really doing it because she believes in it, too.

Can someone ever be surprised by the results of a "detect alignment" spell cast on themself?

Clearly yes, on all accounts. So what you then need to answer is "so does detect alignment really make people take stock of their lives?" Or does it get ignored like the number on your bathroom scale? If the latter, do people say "well, I'll try harder", and then fail to do so (just as some people say "I basically weigh 160 but I've been temporarily above that for the last couple years"). Or do they say "well, the spell's not really a good judge", just like many people claim their real intelligence is poorly measured by the IQ/SAT.

Tengu_temp
2009-12-27, 11:02 PM
Of course you can. A lot of LE types think they're reallly LG and just "doing what they have to" or "sacrificing few to save many".

Swordgleam
2009-12-27, 11:12 PM
So what you then need to answer is "so does detect alignment really make people take stock of their lives?"

That is an interesting question. I would think that it would be a wakeup call for some people, especially paladin-y types. For others, it might be like telling them that they're an alcoholic - they'll deny it, question the motives of the person casting the spell, and otherwise act irrational.



Of course you can. A lot of LE types think they're reallly LG and just "doing what they have to" or "sacrificing few to save many".


I always assumed those types knew they came up as LE, but saw it more as "LAWFUL evil" if you get the gist - that the law is far more important than anything else, and a little evil in the cause of law is well worth it.

Zaydos
2009-12-27, 11:13 PM
I'd say all three have strayed from their initial alignment. The first example could be CN (you can be lazy and Chaotic Neutral) or TN from the information provided, and I'd actually like to know more about that one. Actually s/he sounds like a fun NPC, the aged champion of freedom whose sword has grown rusty. The third one sounds like a fairly decent to fun PC to play.

Swordgleam
2009-12-27, 11:19 PM
If it wouldn't cause fiery armageddon in all the other places I frequent online, I'd be tempted to make a short free product with the theme "misaligned (N)PCs."

SurlySeraph
2009-12-27, 11:19 PM
Absolutely. My favorite fix for the alignment system is adding the alignment that the character thinks he or she is after his or her actual alignment.

awa
2009-12-27, 11:32 PM
but for most pepole wouldn't their alignment largely be a meta game thing not a actually thing they think about i mean i don't think about what alignment i am.
(characters mechanical affected by alignment might think about it more like pepole with alignment restriction or or who cast spells like hammer of chaos.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-27, 11:38 PM
but for most pepole wouldn't their alignment largely be a meta game thing not a actually thing they think about i mean i don't think about what alignment i am.
(characters mechanical affected by alignment might think about it more like pepole with alignment restriction or or who cast spells like hammer of chaos.)The thing is that Alignment isn't obvious, but it is an actual, knowable effect in the game. A lot of things can make it clear to people. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if temples had some way of casting Detect Evil on anyone who enters. Especially adventurers, but basically anyone above the level of Peon should have a fairly accurate idea of their own alignment.

deuxhero
2009-12-28, 12:26 AM
Of coarse you can not know what it really is, I'm devoted to a cause, am I lawful or chaotic? The alignment system it's self doesn't know (see iconic characters)!

In character, with out detect X, you likely wouldn't describe yourself as so 2d.

Swordgleam
2009-12-28, 12:41 AM
In character, with out detect X, you likely wouldn't describe yourself as so 2d.

Actually, in 1st edition, each alignment had its own language. So you would think of yourself as Lawful Good, since you'd be able to speak Lawful Good to other LG creatures.

Devils_Advocate
2009-12-28, 01:46 AM
Each of those is an example of not knowing exactly where the border between neighboring alignments is, and it's totally plausible that characters wouldn't know that. Only the most advanced alignmentologists would be aware of precisely how the multiverse quantifies your moral and ethical whatsits and what it does with the resulting figures.


Of course you can. A lot of LE types think they're reallly LG and just "doing what they have to" or "sacrificing few to save many".
I'd feel very encouraged to learn that Lawful Evil often attempts to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number. That would give me hope that a lot of devils are surprisingly benevolent.

More broadly speaking, if I were in a D&D campaign world, I'd generally be way more interested in learning surprising things about the alignments themselves than in finding out surprising things about my own alignment.

Swordgleam
2009-12-28, 03:23 AM
Only the most advanced alignmentologists would be aware of precisely how the multiverse quantifies your moral and ethical whatsits and what it does with the resulting figures.

Now that would be an interesting sidequest - helping university academics quantify alignment.

"Okay, you score as LN, 1.07 chaos-iotas away from TN. Please take this sheaf of papers and scatter them around the room. ... Okay, how hold still while we calibrate... No perceivable change. How would you feel about stealing an apple from the market? We have it on good authority that that vendor overcharges poor peasants. And, of course, we'll bail you out if you're caught."

DabblerWizard
2009-12-28, 08:07 AM
This was inspired by several of the alignment threads, but didn't seem to fit in any of them.

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that this is a world with the Detect Alignment spell, so there's some completely objective measurement of alignment.

...

Are these people the alignments they believe themselves to be? It probably matters whether alignment is caused by action or intention. But people can even lie to themselves about their reasons for doing things - the mercenary might tell herself she's championing a just cause because it will make her cleric friend happy, but she's really doing it because she believes in it, too.

Can someone ever be surprised by the results of a "detect alignment" spell cast on themself?


I approve of this forum topic. :smallsmile:

--- A meta-game / mechanically-based answer won't be available by RAW as long as we cannot determine the exact mechanisms that control Detect Alignment spells.

Here are some possibilities concerning the detect alignment spells that a DM, or WOTC (unlikely :smallannoyed:), would have to make more clear, whether: (1) the system follows a heuristic, a generalizing theory that averages a person's actions throughout their whole life; (2) pre-adult behavior is discounted because children are not expected to have the judgment power that adults have; (3) the spell focuses on the outcome of behavior, ignoring intentionality (a frightening tactic if employed by the d&d justice system); (4) the spell focuses on intentionality, excluding outcome in its analysis (strange, but not denied nor verified by the system); (5) the spell, not made to be powerful and wholly encompassing, weighs a person's alignment only on recent past history!! (6) the spell is actually a kind of divination and predicts a person's "end-game" alignment

--- An in-game answer could be given, possibly following the above points as a guide.

--- As a DM I would both relish and abhor figuring out alignment for NPCs and PCs.

All sorts of fun in-game scenarios could be had. I believe that my alignment is X, but I also believe in the detect alignment spell which says it is Y. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

On the other hand, D&D alignment is woefully inadequate, insofar as sufficiently accounting for action and intent. Plus, it seems misguided to think that most people can neatly fit into one of those alignments.

Virtue theory works well with ideas like "goodness" "badness" "honesty" "justice" etc. *See Aristotle, and Hursthouse, classical and modern philosophers respectively, that considered this ethical theory.* It wouldn't be easy to employ in a game mechanic though.

[edit]

Let's not forget that some PCs would not enjoy being told that they're wrong about their own character's alignment.

NotANinja
2009-12-28, 08:35 AM
I see no reason why it wouldn't be very real, and very likely.

Not many villains will think they're horrific monstrosities. No one wants to say "I'm an Evil creature; I deserve torment for however long a cruel god decrees it." Most would have some justification that made themselves appear heroes, or at least something to ease any potential doubt or guilt. The society they come from may even be very supportive, so they have no reason to think themselves in a bad light.

Besides, how many people have any means to detecting their true alignment? How many would actually care to even check it throughout their life? The answers depend on a lot of things, but overall, I doubt many do. That could easily lead to misunderstandings about an actual alignment. The only people that actively strive for otherwise might be religious families, and even they might assume that everyone in their family (even those that are just very skilled at paying lip service) is whatever alignment is correct for their particular deity.

Right now, I'm playing a Lawful Good that's sure she's just a vile example of a human. She would peg herself as LN, normally, but with Evil bits. It's just her own overly critical judgement. It doesn't reflect what her actual actions and constant motivations are.

Riffington
2009-12-28, 09:02 AM
I'd feel very encouraged to learn that Lawful Evil often attempts to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number. That would give me hope that a lot of devils are surprisingly benevolent.
Well, given they're Devils, that might mean destroying the Prime Material Plane and everyone in it for the greater good of the denizens of the Lower Planes :(

Saph
2009-12-28, 09:09 AM
Yes, definitely. That's the whole point of objective alignment in my book. It doesn't matter what you think you are, it matters what you actually do.

This becomes lots of fun when you apply it to PCs. Lots of PCs will say they're Good-aligned, but after you've played a dozen sessions or so the rest of the party will often notice that their claimed alignment and their actions don't match up all that well. :P

Kris Strife
2009-12-28, 09:38 AM
Well, given they're Devils, that might mean destroying the Prime Material Plane and everyone in it for the greater good of the denizens of the Lower Planes :(

But with out the Prime Material plane and the souls they collect from it, how will they get the energy they need to empower themselves to fight the endless chaotic evil hordes?

LibraryOgre
2009-12-28, 10:30 AM
You can be wrong about your own alignment. I will frequently tell people "You can right down whatever alignment you want on your sheet... what I have down on MY sheet is what matters."

valadil
2009-12-28, 10:35 AM
Not many villains will think they're horrific monstrosities. No one wants to say "I'm an Evil creature; I deserve torment for however long a cruel god decrees it." Most would have some justification that made themselves appear heroes, or at least something to ease any potential doubt or guilt. The society they come from may even be very supportive, so they have no reason to think themselves in a bad light.


THANK YOU! I've posted that sentiment a great many times, usually when explaining how evil PCs who burn orphanages aren't a great example of what it means to play evil.

Tim4488
2009-12-28, 11:19 AM
Well, given they're Devils, that might mean destroying the Prime Material Plane and everyone in it for the greater good of the denizens of the Lower Planes :(

Naw. LE misguided mortals, sure, but Devils know they're evil through and through. It's their nature, and they love it.

Valadil and Ninja: You are both dead-on. I ran an evil campaign once at the request of my players and none of them got it. It was very frustrating.

And yeah, you can definitely be wrong about your own alignment. I've warned players who stray, and the game I PC in (with a more old school DM), we are often told if we're leaning too strongly one direction or another that our alignment will change. Much like Saph says.

Telonius
2009-12-28, 11:43 AM
THANK YOU! I've posted that sentiment a great many times, usually when explaining how evil PCs who burn orphanages aren't a great example of what it means to play evil.

I generally agree. It does get a little bit iffy, though, where Clerics of evil gods - gods who are active and involved in the gaming world - are concerned. If Hextor actually shows up to lay down some tyranny every once in awhile, it might alter your perception of the relative merits of Good and Evil. If a person decides that Hextor's victory is inevitable, they might become a Cleric out of a sense of self-preservation. They might know what they're doing is Evil, but feel that it's pointless to do otherwise. (Of course that sort of character is a prime candidate for Redemption, but that's another story).

Ruinix
2009-12-28, 11:57 AM
yes 100% yes.

like in the real world.

anyone can fool them self or lose their path or change the way of act or be or what ever.


any PC or even NPC can chose to be in 1 way and act in the oposite way.

i like that about the aligment mechanic and in the games i play with my friend try to atend as much as we can the aligment issue, with some minor changes like "spoils of war" (loot) and such of things. but for the rest we stick to our choices and if does, change our aligments with all the repercutions carried by that (not just for paladins).

akma
2009-12-28, 12:20 PM
Can someone ever be surprised by the results of a "detect alignment" spell cast on themself?

If you take the approach of alignments as a force in the universe, then yes.

And I have a complication for the devil exemple.
What if the devils define evil what mortals define as good, and what if what they define as good will actully be counted by evil by the mortals (generrly speaking). So basically, even if a detect alignment will be cast, it won`t change the devil perception that he is good, and when he uses an ability like smite good, he calls it smite evil.
Basically, everybody could define themself as good, regerdless to if they are evil or not.
Alignments can create a lot of complications, the most simple solution is to ignore them completly.

denthor
2009-12-28, 12:37 PM
To answer your question. I have a male cousin 20 years old that thinks of himself as dark and dreary. He has swords on the wall that depict devils and a couple of other things that I would never have, plays a death night on World of Warcraft.

He will not play a game of D&D it is too bizzare and I play so. Will not go to the Rocky Horror Picture Show he had a female friend that used to go, and I went so it can not be worth his time.

I had him take a D&D alignment quiz some of the people here have it I came up a True Neutral Cleric with a 9 wisdom score. Oh joy.

He came up a Neutral Good sorcerer he thought he was an evil/or true neutral his 16 year old sister laughed for a good six minutes.

So yes people can be different from the alignment they think they are.

valadil
2009-12-28, 12:44 PM
I generally agree. It does get a little bit iffy, though, where Clerics of evil gods - gods who are active and involved in the gaming world - are concerned. If Hextor actually shows up to lay down some tyranny every once in awhile, it might alter your perception of the relative merits of Good and Evil. If a person decides that Hextor's victory is inevitable, they might become a Cleric out of a sense of self-preservation. They might know what they're doing is Evil, but feel that it's pointless to do otherwise. (Of course that sort of character is a prime candidate for Redemption, but that's another story).

What they are doing is a means to an end. It's self preservation. They know they aren't really a Hextorite. They're just going along with it until they can escape and then they'll make up for it later.

I admit I have a harder time justifying an all out worshipper of Hextor than a reluctant one. I imagine their view on the evils they commit would be that they are culling the weak so that only the strong survive. They probably see this as the natural order of things. They'd admit this is grim or cold, but I doubt they'd see it as evil.

Tim4488
2009-12-28, 12:55 PM
Within a fantasy setting, there definitely are SOME, though a minority, of evil people who are fully aware of "evil" and simply do not care. They may have such a strong lust for power that it doesn't matter to them. After all, the worship of evil gods is an effective way to gain power, sometimes faster and more easily than the worship of good gods. A worshipper of say, Erythnul, probably doesn't think the God of Slaughter is working for the ultimate good, but that same worshipper doesn't care because of his own bloodlust.

But, IMHO, that's the minority. The majority, as most of us are saying, THINK they're doing some sort of good, or that their evil is justified.

Doug Lampert
2009-12-28, 01:20 PM
What they are doing is a means to an end. It's self preservation. They know they aren't really a Hextorite. They're just going along with it until they can escape and then they'll make up for it later.

I admit I have a harder time justifying an all out worshipper of Hextor than a reluctant one. I imagine their view on the evils they commit would be that they are culling the weak so that only the strong survive. They probably see this as the natural order of things. They'd admit this is grim or cold, but I doubt they'd see it as evil.

All out isn't at all hard to justify. If you believe that a strong government is the correct thing then worshiping the god of tryanny is fine and likely correct. Heck, if it maximizes your chance of both having a strong government and of being on top it's perfect.

Hexor doesn't AFAIK urge senseless slaughter, he urges the ruthless killing of your enemies, and takes a rather broad view of who the enemy is. Plenty of people in the real world will go with both of those.

My worshiper's of Evil gods tend to see Good as the suckers alignment and Good religions as a con job that want you to give up your own interest for nothing. Good is an alignment for people who think other people are more important than they are. Good is an alignment for people who think cute fluffy bunnies are more important than having a nice meal of hossenfeffer. AKA idiots.

Neutral is typically for people who CLAIM to believe that other people matter as much as they do, but then act as if they and their personal friends were what matters most or who admit that they are self-interested but then won't follow through. AKA evil but too squemish to actually do it or good but too much of a wuss to actually follow through. Bunch of hippocrites.

By that standard: Evil is simply the universe's lable for people who correctly realize that their own self interest matters far more than anyone else. Hexor worship is for people who correctly realize that they should be in charge and that everyone else should do exactly what they say.

Detect alignment shows you an aura and tells you the type. Nothing tells you that "Good" is actually all that much better than "Evil".

DougL

randomhero00
2009-12-28, 01:23 PM
Whatever is on your character sheet is what you are. You can roleplay the character however you choose though, so long as their is given reasons IMO. So in character one can definitely be wrong/confused.

Nai_Calus
2009-12-28, 01:29 PM
I have a character I've had more than one person in-game argue with me over.

He has no respect whatsoever for the laws of men/dwarves/whatever and will cheerfully break them if he finds them foolish and doing so won't endanger anyone else, though he doesn't break every law he can find just because he can. Just the foolish ones. He believes passionately in personal freedom and thinks everyone should be able to do what they want as long as they don't hurt others in the process and feels that laws get in the way of this. He tries to teach people to think for themselves and not rely solely on their rulers and laws, regardless of whether the local rulers and laws suck or not. His actions otherwise are motivated by a strict personal moral code of mercy and forgiveness, though he won't hesitate to cheerfully kill anyone he's given a second chance who then betrays his trust. He helps others and tries to help them become able to help themselves.

He's very much Good, no one has argued that point on me and indeed the other players last time I used him in a game kept making fun of him for being too good. He thinks of himself as Chaotic. I tend to think of him as Chaotic and put CG on his sheet. I've had people argue with me that he's Lawful, though, because he shows mercy to evildoers instead of just killing them, and holds himself to a fairly rigid moral code. Detect Alignment never came up, but there's at least one DM who would have had him show up as Lawful if he'd been feeling cranky. (I say if cranky, since the character was a 3.5 Bard and thus couldn't be LG without becoming an ex-bard, and you really don't want your only source of healing to be unable to gain levels. :smallyuk: )

Oddly, nobody has yet tried to claim that he's NG. Everyone who's played with him thinks he's one of the extremes. Just, there's been argument over *which*. Derp.

(I disagree, incidentally, with the reasoning I've been given from the Lawful camp regarding him. Mercy is a Good trait, not a Lawful one. Having a moral code you hold yourself to has nothing to do with any alignment trait, otherwise you couldn't even have CG and CE to begin with, since if having a moral code were something that moves you strongly towards being Lawful, the minute you made a choice for one or the other and started acting that way, you'd move to being NG/NE. :| )

hamishspence
2009-12-28, 02:46 PM
On mercy being Good rather than Lawful, at least some D&D sourcebook writers will agree.

The sample Chaotic Good character in PHB description "follows his own moral code which, while Good, may not agree with that of society.

As written, the character follows CG as described in both PHB and BoED quite well.

Swordgleam
2009-12-28, 06:03 PM
(6) the spell is actually a kind of divination and predicts a person's "end-game" alignment

I really like this idea. "Well, I'm pretty sure that I'm currently NG and I act NG and try to be NG.. but apparently somehow, over the course of my life, I become LE. I wonder why?"

And of course it would likely be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm overly fond of that kind of thing.

Jimp
2009-12-28, 06:40 PM
I really like this idea. "Well, I'm pretty sure that I'm currently NG and I act NG and try to be NG.. but apparently somehow, over the course of my life, I become LE. I wonder why?"

And of course it would likely be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm overly fond of that kind of thing.Sounds like an awesome plot to me.

Tim4488
2009-12-29, 01:19 PM
Nai: That sounds like a lot of fun. And ditto hamish's point about personal codes.

Sword: Well of course you're a fan of self-fulfilling prophecies, especially ones that doom people, what with your love for Greek mythology.

John Campbell
2009-12-29, 06:29 PM
Given that I, personally, disagree with the received morality of the D&D alignment system about where a number of acts fall on the Good/Evil axis*, and no one seems to agree about what the hell "Lawful" and "Chaotic" mean, not even the people who write the stuff, I'd say that it's certainly possible for reasonable people to disagree with who or whatever is interpreting the alignment system about their own alignment.


* Here's a fun one, from actual play: I was playing a Neutral wizard who had copied magic circle against good from a defeated enemy's spellbook, but had, for various logistical reasons, never picked up magic circle against evil. In the final confrontation against the BBEG who was about to destroy the world, said BBEG dominated the party's paladin, who proceeded to attack and nearly kill our sorceress. With me on the other side of the large room, too far away to deliver any helpful spell to the paladin myself, unlikely to beat the six-levels-higher BBEG on a dispel check, and the sorceress one solid attack away from death and without any spells of her own that could save her, I cast magic circle against good on my familiar, and had him run across the room, which got him just close enough to bring the paladin into its effect radius, thus suppressing the dominate monster, freeing the paladin from mind control by the Evil villain and bringing him back to the side of Good, saving the sorceress's life (at least for a few more rounds before the BBEG disintegrated her), probably turning a TPK into a very close victory, and likely saving the world.

This was, by the rules, an Evil act, because of the descriptor on the spell.

Zaydos
2009-12-29, 07:17 PM
I have a character I've had more than one person in-game argue with me over.

He has no respect whatsoever for the laws of men/dwarves/whatever and will cheerfully break them if he finds them foolish and doing so won't endanger anyone else, though he doesn't break every law he can find just because he can. Just the foolish ones. He believes passionately in personal freedom and thinks everyone should be able to do what they want as long as they don't hurt others in the process and feels that laws get in the way of this. He tries to teach people to think for themselves and not rely solely on their rulers and laws, regardless of whether the local rulers and laws suck or not. His actions otherwise are motivated by a strict personal moral code of mercy and forgiveness, though he won't hesitate to cheerfully kill anyone he's given a second chance who then betrays his trust. He helps others and tries to help them become able to help themselves.

Basic description of the chaotic good alignment a mix of good traits (mercy, a belief in helping others, etc) and chaotic traits (lack of respect for the laws, belief in personal freedom, feels that laws get in the way). I bolded that portion to emphasize the moral code, even though it is strict, it is 1 personal, and 2 a moral code. All good aligned creatures by default follow a moral code, hence good and evil are the "moral alignments"


Oddly, nobody has yet tried to claim that he's NG. Everyone who's played with him thinks he's one of the extremes. Just, there's been argument over *which*. Derp.

I think this is because both lawful and chaotic characters tend to have a more noticeably active personal code. A neutral good character just does good and ultimately has more freedom in how it is RPed than a Chaotic Good character (since you have to actually be chaotic). Both Lawful and Chaotic Good characters are heavily opinionated because they have both Good alignment opinions and traits and those of their ethical alignment.


(I disagree, incidentally, with the reasoning I've been given from the Lawful camp regarding him. Mercy is a Good trait, not a Lawful one. Having a moral code you hold yourself to has nothing to do with any alignment trait, otherwise you couldn't even have CG and CE to begin with, since if having a moral code were something that moves you strongly towards being Lawful, the minute you made a choice for one or the other and started acting that way, you'd move to being NG/NE. :| )

I agree whole heartedly with you on this.

I will also add I seriously think some of the confusion with Law and Chaos comes from people wanting to play 1) evil characters and call them good/neutral using "I'm chaotic" as an excuse, and 2) people trying to circumvent the alignment restrictions on classes without actually removing them (I want to be a Chaotic Good paladin but UA hasn't come out yet, so I'll mark LG and just play Chaotic and say I have a strong personal code). I've had a player (we were playing and his normal group had ditched so he joined in for 1 session) who blatantly asked if he could do the second with a monk and I just waived the alignment restriction. Why do monks even have to be Lawful?

Trixie
2009-12-29, 07:27 PM
"Okay, you score as LN, 1.07 chaos-iotas away from TN. Please take this sheaf of papers and scatter them around the room. ... Okay, how hold still while we calibrate... No perceivable change. How would you feel about stealing an apple from the market? We have it on good authority that that vendor overcharges poor peasants. And, of course, we'll bail you out if you're caught."

Huh, that's a very nice idea for a wizard/archivist that adventures (mainly) to check his own theories, behaving more like scientist than a fantasy sage :smallwink:


Well, given they're Devils, that might mean destroying the Prime Material Plane and everyone in it for the greater good of the denizens of the Lower Planes :(

Um, they want to turn it into farm, not burn it. You're thinking of demons, here.

Deme
2009-12-29, 10:40 PM
I'd say yes, absolutely. Alignment is a grand, celestial, cosmic force-thingy. It is objective, and true beyond all truth. Do you know what most of us here mortals are bad at handling? Is it objectivity and true-truths? Yes, yes it is. I don't think most people are checking themselves for their alignment(though there's a funny Paladin concept there...) , so they're just going to judge themselves in whatever subjective, aproximate way they are capable of.

Hey, do you think that the ordinary dirt-farming peasant actually knows about alignments? I dunno. It's an interesting thought, there.

Also... a wizard studying alignment would have to do some naturalistic study: being aware their alignment was being studied, and participating in that willingly, could adjust the results. But their biggest mystery will be the question of alignment and genetics -- there are "always evil" species, but all identical twins seem to be good-evil pairs. That's tough.

Fawsto
2009-12-30, 01:04 AM
@ John: Yeah, it bugs me that some spells are made evil or good just due to it's "descriptor". C'mon!! What was wrong with the guys who created the spells? I mean, we know that they created Polymorph as well, but this was probably due some heavy drugs.. Anyways, It makes things like that situation you described quite absurd.

Imagine the other way around: The BBEG uses magic circle against good to protect himself... Niiiiiice... The guy is trying to destroy the world as we know it and he is still doing something good... Against the guys who are supposed to stop him!! Gods!

And why a good person would not cast protection from good? Sometimes there is someone good trying to bash your head and you must get some protection. It is like they are ignoring the fact that not only evil conflicts with evil, but good may fight good as well.

Swordgleam
2009-12-30, 01:25 AM
Huh, that's a very nice idea for a wizard/archivist that adventures (mainly) to check his own theories, behaving more like scientist than a fantasy sage :smallwink:



Also... a wizard studying alignment would have to do some naturalistic study: being aware their alignment was being studied, and participating in that willingly, could adjust the results. But their biggest mystery will be the question of alignment and genetics -- there are "always evil" species, but all identical twins seem to be good-evil pairs. That's tough.


This sounds like it could make a fun campaign, with the right group - a journey to discover fundamental truths about alignment. You could have a purely academic wizard, a cleric who wants to confirm her own strongly-held religious convictions about alignment, perhaps a fallen paladin who wants to understand how it all works, and maybe a couple of people just along for the ride.