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Snikies
2009-12-28, 03:11 AM
I've been playing d&d for a while now, and i just recently tried to DM. The problem is, one of my players is a veteran gamer and he is really good. He knows pretty much everything about the game and he prides himself on exploiting every possibility from all the core books. He doesn't like splat books or anything that is not core. So its nearly impossible to limit him short of saying that core rules and class option are not available in my campaign. I don't want to just strip him of his options, what i want is to learn ways to challenge him so he still has fun, yet not wipe the party. The party complains its not fun when he one shots all the boss encounters. And i have no fun when i plan really in depth encounters that he walks through as if he was a god. It was cool the first time he showed us his broken spell combos, but not its just tiresome. I can't challenge him, the party is losing interest, and i feel like hes not having fun either. Any tips on building fun, yet challenging encounters for a mixed player ability party? Oh btw, i've tried monsters with ability drain and miss chance, and that is not challenge. Even well planned tactics don't work. I can beat him if i single him out, but thats no fun. Thanks for any advice.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-28, 03:13 AM
Present him with a prickly social issue he must solve. Political intrigue, perhaps. Things like that. Things you have to think through rather than fight through.

Or we could help you make an ungodly powerful BBEG.

I prefer the latter approach.

Anyways, be sure you know the rules. Often times, people who go about bragging about how great their characters are and about broken spell combos really have no idea what they are actually doing and are misreading or misinterpreting the actual rules to get the desired effect.

Swordgleam
2009-12-28, 03:18 AM
If he's not having fun either, why not talk to him about toning it down? Building game-breaking super-optimized characters is fun, and an art in itself, but why does he have to take that character and play it? Why not build broken characters all over the place, then have a relatively normal one to play at the table?

Try presenting it as a challenge: sure, he can solo your boss with his broken combo machine. But is he good enough at tactics to still kill things with a character that has 12 in every ability score? What about one with just normal scores and sub-optimal feat choices?

Optimystik
2009-12-28, 03:25 AM
Rocks fall, he dies.

Ask him to tone down the munchkining.

Crafty Cultist
2009-12-28, 03:33 AM
Warn him that anything he does to break the game his enemies can too. And as DM, there is no limits to the resources you can use in your cheese

FFTGeist
2009-12-28, 03:42 AM
Enact rule -1?
Ask him to tone it down outside of the game because his skills and knowledge are causing the game to not be fun for everyone else. Take the route that your an inexperienced DM and still haven't mastered crafting encounters for a group with a semi power player.

Ask him if he'd be willing to play a single class you both agree on, has he ever played a pure bard?

As Pharoh mentioned try doing more role play encounters.

-Skill checks against guards in a friendly city, maybe you've been accused criminals for a crime you never commited.
-Convincing a politician to send a group of soldiers to stop a goblin army.
-Have the party's cleric find out the leader of his church in a large city is actually an evil outsider and they need to sneak/bribe their way into the town to kill him or need to gather proof outside of town.
-Someone is trying to start fires around a farming community, your players need to stop the fires before they claim innocent lives, and ruin the areas crops before they can stop the BBEG
-Or if all else fails and he uses a melee weapon read into disarm. Otherwise trip them (him) to keep him out of combat. Look into dire wolves... /sigh

Best bet is out of game communication.


EDIT:
Remember, the DM will ALWAYS win the arms race. You can ALWAYS come up with stronger monsters and a better combination. It is up to the players to play within the rules and the DM to play to the party. If he can't play down for the game then hulking hurler, or pun pun him... Also have a phase spider grapple him and phase back to the ethereal plane. bye bye

Doc Roc
2009-12-28, 03:49 AM
I'm guessing this is 3.5. If you want, I can roll out some cool or challenging stuff. You could also use some of the encounters from The Monkening, which seem to work well enough.

ex cathedra
2009-12-28, 03:56 AM
Well, what sort of things is he using? Is it just good spell tactics, or he is abusing blatantly terrible things? That could provide some insight to the situation.

Reluctance
2009-12-28, 03:59 AM
Like Pharaoh said, I'm curious what his killer combos are. Won't change the end result, but my advice for a dyed-in-the-wool optimizer (have a chat, ask him to tone down his characters or help the other players beef up theirs) is different from my advice for a cheater (dragons rape his character to death, followed by the player being uninvited).

Also, how often does he spotlight-grab? I can play an optimized god courteously and supportively, or I can play a commoner who always has to draw attention to his inept antics. Scene stealing is an issue of player management, of keeping control of your own table, and is only tangentially related to the numbers. It can be hard to admit that you've lost control of the game, but if that's the issue, it's much better to tackle it head-on than to play optimized build whack-a-mole.

Incorrect
2009-12-28, 05:03 AM
Perhaps ask him to focus on buffing the party. Even if he is powergaming, the others will be the ones doing the action.
If he is the best buffer in your world, and the party gets the benefits, maybe everybody can get along?

Lioness
2009-12-28, 05:07 AM
As a new DM myself, I've asked players to keep it as simple as possible.
I've also asked them to check their characters through with me so I can discuss alternatives if they are too overpowered...

If something like this crops up, I'd probably take the player aside and tell him/her that I think their character is a little too overpowered, and see whether we can come to an agreement on a middle ground.

Oslecamo
2009-12-28, 05:20 AM
Here's my guide to building interesting ecounters for DMs. It's still not finished, but it should help you get the basics of countering power gamers:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133604

EDIT:Alternatively, just talk to the player and ask him to tone it down. Probably retire his super current character and make a new more toned down one.

Or, you're the DM. You can homebrew at will. Give the monsters abilities on the fly wich you think will make the fight interesting but not one sided.

AslanCross
2009-12-28, 05:21 AM
Talk to him and point-blank tell him that his powergaming is interfering in everyone's enjoyment (assuming it actually is).

D&D is a game about team cooperation and enjoyment. If he's doing this munchkinry at the expense of everyone else, then it's no longer kosher.

Core has a lot of broken stuff itself (Candle of Invocation, for example), so the core only rule does practically nothing in nerfing the options that DO need nerfing.

Swordguy
2009-12-28, 05:43 AM
Another vote for "talk to him out-of-game" regarding this. As a DM, you are well within your rights to spell out under what circumstances and player behaviors you are willing to run the game (as a note for next time, it is extremely helpful to spell these out before your game actually starts). If the player(s) is unwilling to abide by those, then he's not welcome at the table as long as you're GMing - it's that simple.

Perhaps a smoother tack in this instance, however, might be to point out that you ARE a "newbie" DM, and you aren't comfortable with him pulling power combos yet. Ask him point-blank to tone it down (don't insinuate; make him say yes or no), and, assuming he's not going to metagame, offer as a "compensation" prize the position of "assistant GM". That is, run some of your encounters by him between sessions so he can crunch numbers and make sure they're reasonably appropriate for the party, and let him make suggestions as to making the game tougher/more exciting for the rest of the party. That way, you're putting his rule-crunching abilities to use benefiting the whole table, while putting a stop to the initial power-gaming.

Be up-front and assertive, though. This is a very heavy "player's rights" forum; and, given a lengthy enough thread, you're going to have people tell you that you have no right to ask or make him stop in the manner HE wants to play. Remember, without you, there is no game at all, and you have JUST as much right to have fun as anyone else at the table. Since you're the one who's putting the whole thing together, it's your decision what playstyles are allowed at your table, especially when a playstyle is interfering with your ability to have fun. Be polite about it, but if he's really throwing you for a loop and tells you to screw off when you've honestly and politely asked him to ease up, don't feel that his "rights" trump yours. Be ready to remove him from the table as a last resort.

Killer Angel
2009-12-28, 05:52 AM
Pretty much what all the other posters said.
Talk with him, but remember that there are options that let him optimize his character without ruining the fun for the other players.
Examples: An optimized buffer is perfect; an optimized low tier class (monk, etc) should be on par with suboptimal high level tier played by others.

Gnaeus
2009-12-28, 06:29 AM
I agree with everything said above.

Other possibilities: If the other players are willing, he could help them optimize their characters. With an optimized party, you (the DM) just crank up the monsters by one or 2 CRs.

If he is somewhat responsible, you could ask him if he wants to make some of your bad guys. Sometimes this works.

BobVosh
2009-12-28, 06:37 AM
Vampire Unarmed Swordsages solve all problems in large enough numbers.

Anyway unless we know exactly how he breaks the game the only and best advice we can give is talk to the man. Ask him to tone it down.

Samurai Jill
2009-12-28, 06:45 AM
I'm afraid most of the advice in this thread is terrible.

Singling out a particular player for punishing encounters- whether those are extra-tough BBEGs, convoluted social encounters (for which D&D offers virtually no mechanical support,) or simply lobbing the same broken spell combinations back in the player's face (while 'going easy' on the relative newbs)- are all basically forms of inverse favouritism. There is no reason why the player should be explicitly punished just for being competent.

I suspect that the problem here isn't that the player is doing anything wrong, but that the rules are broken, (and this is particularly likely if you haven't adopted 4E yet.) Broken spell combinations are generally the result of broken rules, so go and adopt a rule-set that isn't hopelessly broken. (If nothing else, he'll have to re-learn things from scratch along with the other players, and that ought to level the playing field a bit.) You'll save yourself grief in the long run.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-28, 06:48 AM
I'm afraid most of the advice in this thread is terrible.
Amusing, though.


Singling out a particular player for punishing encounters- whether those are extra-tough BBEGs, convoluted social encounters (for which D&D offers virtually no mechanical support,)
No one suggested convoluted social encounters.

Samurai Jill
2009-12-28, 06:51 AM
No one suggested convoluted social encounters.
Really?

Present him with a prickly social issue he must solve. Political intrigue, perhaps. Things like that. Things you have to think through rather than fight through.
...Perhaps I misinterpreted.

Killer Angel
2009-12-28, 07:03 AM
I'm afraid most of the advice in this thread is terrible.
snip
Broken spell combinations are generally the result of broken rules, so go and adopt a rule-set that isn't hopelessly broken.

So, your non terrible solution is "don't play D&D"? yeah, brilliant. :smallamused:

Samurai Jill
2009-12-28, 07:10 AM
So, your non terrible solution is "don't play D&D"? yeah, brilliant. :smallamused:
Certainly not 3E/3.5E. I'd be surprised if the OP were already playing 4E and ran into so many broken spell combinations. I have no bone to pick with 4E.

Lioness
2009-12-28, 07:12 AM
Certainly not 3E/3.5E. I'd be surprised if the OP were already playing 4E and ran into so many broken spell combinations. I have no bone to pick with 4E.

That's a personal opinion and not really helpful to the OP. Change the system of D&D they're playing because one player is overpowered? That's not logical. It's much easier to just ask the player to tone it down a bit. Hopefully no harm done, no-one drastically upset, etc.

pasko77
2009-12-28, 07:17 AM
Certainly not 3E/3.5E. I'd be surprised if the OP were already playing 4E and ran into so many broken spell combinations. I have no bone to pick with 4E.

This would my same suggestion, but probably this is not feasible. Probably the group owns these books and these alone.

I can't find a better solution than: "ask the expert to gimp themselves". When I was in the same situation (only competent player), I played an arcane trickster and took the skillmonkey/buff role... 'nuff said :)

Samurai Jill
2009-12-28, 07:28 AM
That's a personal opinion and not really helpful to the OP. Change the system of D&D they're playing because one player is overpowered? That's not logical. It's much easier to just ask the player to tone it down a bit. Hopefully no harm done, no-one drastically upset, etc.
If it works, great. However- whileI presume the OP knows the player better than I do- I would again suspect that a player this committed to powergaming in the first place isn't going to be receptive to voluntarily gimping themselves. I could be wrong.

Lioness
2009-12-28, 07:36 AM
If it works, great. However- whileI presume the OP knows the player better than I do- I would again suspect that a player this committed to powergaming in the first place isn't going to be receptive to voluntarily gimping themselves. I could be wrong.

it does depend on the player in question. We've got a couple in our group who have a lot of fun optimizing their characters, and get slightly disappointed when the DM tries to negotiate a more balanced character, but only disappointed because they don't get to use X cool power they had. They understand that it would spoil the game a little if they were too overpowered.

Joey/Flake
2009-12-28, 07:50 AM
i'm intrested in the level of the party and combination he is using.

/Most/ Powerbuilds have a large weakness, as they focus in a single area. Tho, this isn't aways the case.

4ED = WoW, so there ways to break it, just takes times and the supplement book to come out, before we really see the issues arising (IMO)

I powergame, I play a Cleric/Bard, little beauty. I feel if have to sit in that role, or the part fall, as no one else has the inclination or exp to cover the roles. Most play Rogue or Necromancers.. My DM doesn't mind me powerbuilding as I build for everyone, and it gives a level field.

If you give us a copy of what he is playing, I'm sure we can show you a flaw to help bring him down a peg or two.. or even, give him a cursed item, limiting him in someway. Then Via imersion RP, he can remove it when youthink the group is of a similar power.

Sir Homeslice
2009-12-28, 07:53 AM
4ED = WoW, so there ways to break it, just takes times and the supplement book to come out, before we really see the issues arising (IMO)

While I don't debate that 4e can be broken...

Really? Really?

Lioness
2009-12-28, 07:58 AM
I think that trying to bring him down a few notches might anger him further. If you talked to him first, saw his viewpoint, and then if he didn't want to back down, ruthlessly overpower him with big bad awesome things.

Just to stop any bad feelings.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-28, 08:42 AM
Both Lioness and Samurai Jill make important points.

- Expert players don't enjoy being needlessly crippled, in any game.
- Low-key accommodations for the sake of group harmony are reasonable expectations.

If D&D were a single player game, we wouldn't have an issue with munchkinry. There would be no other feet to stomp on.

As it stands, an expert players need to realize that if the rest of their group is unfamiliar, or uncomfortable with their power-gaming, they have these options: (1) accommodate to the rest of the group and curb their optimizing (not fun, but maybe necessary); (2) teach the group about optimization and tricks of the trade (a nice compromise); (3) find a more experienced group

Players and DMs need to adapt to each others' needs, within reason.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-28, 08:54 AM
Really?

...Perhaps I misinterpreted.
Convoluted is a word which means that something is unnecessarily hard or difficult. Often to the point of frustration. This is in no way suggested by the words "Present him with a prickly social issue he must solve. Political intrigue, perhaps. Things like that. Things you have to think through rather than fight through."

Optimystik
2009-12-28, 09:02 AM
As it stands, an expert players need to realize that if the rest of their group is unfamiliar, or uncomfortable with their power-gaming, they have these options: (1) accommodate to the rest of the group and curb their optimizing (not fun, but maybe necessary); (2) teach the group about optimization and tricks of the trade (a nice compromise); (3) find a more experienced group

Players and DMs need to adapt to each others' needs, within reason.

You left two options out of that list:

4) Start with something weak, and optimize it to be equal to the rest of the party. (e.g. Warmage.)
5) Optimize a purely buffing class, and let the other players have the spotlight.

Both remove the "not fun" drawback of forcing the optimizing player to either not optimize, or limit himself drastically.

Teaching optimization techniques might be a great solution in the long term, but it can bog down a gaming session if all the others just want to pick up and play.

Finding a more experienced group is a last resort, and often not possible even then.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-28, 09:11 AM
You left two options out of that list:

4) Start with something weak, and optimize it to be equal to the rest of the party. (e.g. Warmage.)
5) Optimize a purely buffing class, and let the other players have the spotlight.

Both remove the "not fun" drawback of forcing the optimizing player to either not optimize, or limit himself drastically.

Teaching optimization techniques might be a great solution in the long term, but it can bog down a gaming session if all the others just want to pick up and play.

Finding a more experienced group is a last resort, and often not possible even then.

Good points Optimystik.

It's unfortunate that gaming groups can form so arbitrarily and end up unbalanced as far as player experience is concerned. I imagine that a group of new players, who stick together for a long while, would possibly be very optimization friendly, once they're all sufficiently comfortable with the system and are looking for new system-maxing techniques.

Samurai Jill
2009-12-28, 09:18 AM
...Convoluted, you see, is a word which means, simply, that something is unnecessarily hard or difficult.
Since this is an obstacle you're throwing in the player's path purely in order to slow them down, yes, I would argue it is both unnecessary and difficult. It's purpose is to 'frustrate' the player, who would otherwise be happily busting out cloudkill+forcecage+timestop.
It would be like obliging a wizard to enter an arm-wrestling contest, or obliging a barbarian to pick locks, if there were no rules for arm-wrestling, and no rules for picking locks. CR guidelines exist for a reason- so that players have a reasonable assurance that there's a level playing field where whether they win or lose won't come down purely to the GM's whim. This is naked whim.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-28, 09:24 AM
Since this is an obstacle you're throwing in the player's path purely in order to slow them down, yes, I would argue it is both unnecessary and difficult.
Are you stating that social encounters have no business in DnD? That they are not legitimate?

It's purpose is to 'frustrate' the player,
You don't know how the player will react. It is presumptuous for you to assume that he would

otherwise be happily busting out cloudkill+forcecage+timestop.

Moving on.


It would be like obliging a wizard to enter an arm-wrestling contest, or obliging a barbarian to pick locks, if there were no rules for arm-wrestling, and no rules for picking locks.
Wait... but there are rules for social encounters. Badly flawed, often house ruled, but they do exist.


CR guidelines exist for a reason- so that players have a reasonable assurance that there's a level playing field where whether they win or lose won't come down purely to the GM's whim. This is naked whim.
You would be correct if the rules covering social skills did not indicate otherwise.

Saph
2009-12-28, 09:32 AM
I'm afraid most of the advice in this thread is terrible.

Actually, most of the advice is pretty good. Your suggestion - "you should stop playing the system you like and play a system I like!" - is the one which is terrible, because it's completely self-centred. You aren't trying to help the OP, you're trying to make your own personal issues the focus of the discussion. Please don't do this.

For the OP, I'd recommend the first 15 posts in the thread. I'd say it again, but they basically covered everything just as well as I could. :)

Bagelz
2009-12-28, 09:49 AM
1: i don't think all the advice is bad, often in forums there is an overreaction to "i have a problem with my player/dm". This overreaction is usually the form of "find a new group" or "give him a taste of his own medicine, we'll show you how to break it"
While these are extreme they are rooted in some truth. If you have exhausted your options (ei rationally talking to the person) and the game is still not fun, then don't play that game with those people. (last resort)

2: I think we need more specific information to give more specific answers on how to handle this. example: if his characters are breaking because of prestige classes, remind him that 1) prestige classes require dm approval and 2) most prestige classes could require an npc to teach you, possibly involving a quest or initiation.
If you follow #2 remember to use that for all of you players never give someone special treatment
example: if it is spells that you cannot handle, most of my games banned haste in 3.0 (it was fixed in 3.5) and banned timestop. Polymorph is another that often requires restrictions (you need to be familiar with the creature you can't just leaf through the monster manual if you've never encountered the creature).
And as mentioned before often the rules are misinterpreted for combo's

So what problems exactly are you having?

Choco
2009-12-28, 10:05 AM
Simply tell him that D&D is a COOPERATIVE GAME and that his powergaming for his own satisfaction is making the game boring for everyone else. Tell him to either:

1. Cut back on the powergaming so he is at the same level as the rest of the party. Seriously, overcoming a challenge that is actually challenging is a lot more fun than breaking the rules.

2. Help optimize the rest of the party to his level (I would allow a re-stat/spec for all of them) so then you can just up the challenge of your encounters to match.

3. Keep his overpowered character the way it is but play it more support. Batman wizards are a lot more tolerable when they don't pull out the cheese until the rest of the party actually needs it. Course then you no longer have the fear of death/loss, so it aint all good doing it this way.

4. If he does not do any of the above 3 just remove him from the group. It is obvious his playstyle is completely different from the rest of the paty and you as a new DM cannot yet handle it gracefully. If he is not willing to tone down to make the game more enjoyable for the rest of the group he should be kicked out promptly.

valadil
2009-12-28, 10:18 AM
Have you tried asking him nicely to tone it down? I've had a surprising amount of success doing just that.

Tell him you don't want an arms race. If you keep the difficulty level where it is, he'll beat everything and be bored. If you up it to his level, the rest of the party will be bored. It's not fair to the rest of the players for him to stick with his optimized characters. Tell him those characters won the game, now try something a little more challenging.

If he's not mature enough to limit himself on optimization, maybe you could make suggestions. Have him play a core monk or bard. See if he can get those up to the power level of a normal character. If that works, see what he can do with an expert or aristocrat. Then make him play a kobold. He'll still get to powergame, but he'll start out so much weaker that he'll have a harder time overshadowing the party.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-28, 12:10 PM
Actually, most of the advice is pretty good. Your suggestion - "you should stop playing the system you like and play a system I like!" - is the one which is terrible, because it's completely self-centred. You aren't trying to help the OP, you're trying to make your own personal issues the focus of the discussion. Please don't do this.

For the OP, I'd recommend the first 15 posts in the thread. I'd say it again, but they basically covered everything just as well as I could. :)

Thank you for posting that Saph, I frankly wanted to say that but couldn't think of a non-insulting way to do so.

Aldizog
2009-12-28, 12:22 PM
You left two options out of that list:

4) Start with something weak, and optimize it to be equal to the rest of the party. (e.g. Warmage.)

Given the OP's post, I think Warmage might be too much... perhaps Aristocrat or Adept. I'm not joking or mocking or being sarcastic.

Swordguy
2009-12-28, 01:49 PM
For the OP, I'd recommend the first 15 posts in the thread. I'd say it again, but they basically covered everything just as well as I could. :)


*Checks post number*

Yay! I'm useful!

:smalltongue:

ericgrau
2009-12-28, 01:55 PM
It sounds like you're too new to recognize and stop the cheesy tricks. For the cheesiest of cheese, which is obviously beyond merely overpowered or just plain makes no sense outside of rules lawyering, disallow it outright. For less cheesy stuff, get a printout of spells from www.d20srd.org or the spell cards in my sig. Usually there are weaknesses given in the spell description. Or if the spell causes a status effect, look up the rules on that status effect in my cheat sheets or the DMG, to find weaknesses. For example a DC 20 listen check goes a long way towards defeating blindness and invisibility. Avoid letting your players have one very high stat, as this will make a nigh-unbeatable spell save DC.

Some great advice I've heard elsewhere: Try to put the powergamer to good use to avoid looking up simpler rules for common events or to help newer players build their characters. You have a handy rules encyclopedia, at least when he's not trying to bend the rules in his favor. But try to talk to him and see what you can do. Unless he's a total jerk, in which case you just kick him from the group.

taltamir
2009-12-28, 04:33 PM
1. Ask the player to tone it down because he is making it not fun for the rest of the team...
2. I suggest trying 4th edition, there is much less room for abuse and combat is much more balanced.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-28, 04:44 PM
for some reason I thought this thread was about a DM who was giving stuff out that was too powerful.

I can't really help with the current situation.

Volos
2009-12-28, 09:58 PM
If he thinks that he is so awesome, challenge him to make a character using nothing but NPC classes like commoner, adept, expert, warrior, or aristocat. I became a DM because I started becoming a powergamer and noone was enjoying it. Whenever I play as a player now I have to build my character with NPC levels only, otherwise I become too much. It makes me feel more badass when I can go toe to toe with the same monster as the fighter when I'm just some high level peasant.

erikun
2009-12-28, 10:44 PM
Well, on the one hand, Samurai Jill does have a point. D&D in general has several problems that canny players can take advantage of, and D&D 3.5e perhaps more so. In that sense, switching systems may tone down the rampant powergaming. On the other hand, it doesn't sound like the OP is in a position to suddenly switch systems on his players. Most groups probably either aren't interesting in trying out a new system or aren't in a position where they can do so.

Besides, an optimizer in one system will be an optimizer in another system. If the problem is the player, changing the system doesn't solve anything.

One option that has already been mentioned is to talk to the player. Mention to them that their overpowered character is no fun for anyone else in the group, and ask them to tone it down/switch focus/change their playstyle somehow to fit in with the group. Trying to be evasive to gimp the character won't work as well as directly addressing the problem; it doesn't sound like the player themselves is unreasonable.

Another option not yet mentioned is to make encounters more "interesting" that works against the player's optimization. I've found this to be surprisingly simple to do: large groups of low-CR monsters, hidden archers readying actions, and an invisible beholder will all make life difficult for a flying wizard who thinks himself otherwise invulnerable. For that matter, if wizards are that much stronger than everything else (and this wizard in particular), then it seems reasonable that high level monsters in the world would take wizards into account.

"Skill Challanges" are another option. Not everything involves killing orcs in a 20'x20' room. What if, say, the BBEG was the town mayor? The Mind Blank spell grants the BBEG immunity to Detect Evil, among other things, and the PCs can't just walk up to city hall and attack the town guards. Other challanges, such as tracking an enemy through town or gathering information about the location of a cult, are things that a party would reasonably need to do, but a super-wizard cannot necessarily wiggle his fingers to fix.

Ask the player to play something else? Optimized wizards will be overpowering, but an optimized small mounted charger isn't necessarily so. Perhaps the player will enjoy the challange of core-optimizing a "difficult" class.


Finally, how is this character optimized? Different optimizations and different levels of optimization have seperate ways of being handled. If the character goes through three fights and then Rope Tricks for 8 hours, then just throw them up against the clock. If the character spits out save-or-die, just use more creatures. If the character loves Dominating creatures and throwing them against other enemies, then perhaps it's time for a challange in undeadland. You don't necessarily want to nerf the optimized character all the time, but it is reasonable for them to run into situations where their specific brand of optimizing doesn't grant them a benefit.