What *should* high level melee classes look like?

[AllisterH]

Yep, another melee vs spellcasting thread.

But hopefully with a twist....I'm wondering what people think/see in their heads when they see on paper, a 20th level fighter.

Basically, using either 1e/2e or 3e or 4e, what level do you think these 2 combatants are? (I separated 1e/2e from 3e as I think the levels are "worth more" in the former editions given that name level meant you were supposed to be one of the studliest beings on the PLANET.

Upper Heroic level fight? - level 15 in 1e/2e, level 8-10 in 3e? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRStLYceOT8)

Paragon level swordfight?, level 13-15 in 3e and simply off the scale in 1e/2e (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZWLpxTfnB8)

[AslanCross]

I couldn't tell the point of this thread until I viewed the videos.

Frankly, it's really up to the players and DM to imagine what these look like. The warblade in my campaign took down a warforged titan almost entirely on her own using a longsword and a short sword. She's level 10 and wasn't even using the full extent of her abilities.

[Mongoose87]

The problem with high level melee isn't melee, but spellcasters. You can make melee characters awesome, but spellcasters will still be able to do things they cannot even consider.

[Faleldir]

If casters can get more mileage out of support and utility spells than save-or-dies, that's not really a problem.

[Xallace]

By "should look like" do you mean specifically visually, or mechanically? Like, "what should a 20th level fighter be able to do, in your opinion?"

[AslanCross]

By "should look like" do you mean specifically visually, or mechanically? Like, "what should a 20th level fighter be able to do, in your opinion?"

It looks like he means aesthetically, given his use of videos.

[Deepblue706]

To be honest, I always just imagine my Fighters dishing it out Arnie Style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvOgIdTrSzo), regardless of level.

[Oslecamo]

Frankly, it's really up to the players and DM to imagine what these look like. The warblade in my campaign took down a warforged titan almost entirely on her own using a longsword and a short sword. She's level 10 and wasn't even using the full extent of her abilities.

Minor nitpick, but taking down a warforged titan solo at level 10 is hardly impressive. The thing is just CR 8, and even then it isn't that strong. Just 109 HP and 25 AC. Two atacks per turn at +16 to hit before power atacking isn't going to take him anywhere fast. DR 10 would have been meaninfull meaningfull some levels ago, but at level 10 it's just slowing down a litle his demise. A barbarian with just power attack and standard equipment could take it out with his eyes closed. An uber charger could one shot it with an hand tied to his back.

Now on topic, if the OP meant about looks, well, it really depends on the character and the mood of the players/DM. I personaly like more gory battles a la Berseker, with blood flying with each hit, low HP representing quite nasty wounds and all that remains of killed enemies being pools of blood.

[AslanCross]

You're talking about optimized characters. She wasn't optimized. :smalltongue: (Raging, Power Attacking Barbarian is still more optimized than a TWF barbarian warblade who ISN'T using her rage.)

And the thought of a single person tearing down a 16-foot tall chunk of adamantine is still impressive. He's talking about aesthetics here, not numbers.

[Xallace]

Well, for both skill and aesthetics:

Levels 1 - 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPgOkDe3_R0)
Levels 6 - 10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jhDOPblXcA)
Levels 11-15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OxQ-2gR1DU)
Levels 16 - 20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mb5QgXEGUg)
OK, maybe just skill on that last one.

[AllisterH]

A combination of aesthetics and what should be mechanically possible.

For example, in the latter video, the characters can easily chop through trees and can move fast enough that they literally can move over water.

What level, if any, should a D&D fightyer be able to clean slice through a full grown oak tree and or slice it to toothpicks

[Meek]

What *should* high level melee classes look like?

Whatever you feel they should look like.

Personally I see Roronoa Zoro, Mihawk and other swordsmen from the manga "One Piece. " They have ridiculous stamina and awesome techniques. At least in 4e, you can have ridiculous stamina and awesome techniques at practically any level, thanks to healing surges and powers.

[Zaydos]

I have to second Conan as a good example of what a fighter, any level, looks like in combat. Fighter's don't get new flashier moves, those are but a waste of time and an open oppurtunity for your opponent. A fighter is awesome because when the dragon charges he is the stone against which it breaks and he is the one that stands there until it is slain. He wards off rending talons with pauldron and shield, defends against gnashing fangs with sharpened edge, takes the batting wings, and dodges bone-shattering tail and returns it all with the razor-sharp blade in his hand. When the dragon is dead, he finally moves from the path, his armor drenched in blood.

[AslanCross]

A combination of aesthetics and what should be mechanically possible.

For example, in the latter video, the characters can easily chop through trees and can move fast enough that they literally can move over water.

What level, if any, should a D&D fightyer be able to clean slice through a full grown oak tree and or slice it to toothpicks

Well, a Massive Tree has AC 3, Hardness 5, and 600 HP. An ubercharger barbarian would likely be able to chop that in half without any problems. Not sure what level that would require, though, but some CharOp guy can likely do that by level 10. Likewise, Martial Adepts with the Mountain Hammer maneuvers and Power Attack could do that before epic.

Moving over water without magic would probably be an epic feat. It just isn't represented in pre-epic rules.

[Xallace]

Moving over water without magic would probably be an epic feat. It just isn't represented in pre-epic rules.

With Stormwrack, you can swap out slow fall for water running if you're a monk, and that's level 4.

How much slow fall would be worth a feat?

[AllisterH]

Water Walk is a 3rd level spell.

Why would it take until EPIC for non spellcasters to duplicate this? Especially since you have to actually keep moving during your turn (no full attack - must have a move action)

A monk certainly shouldn't be able to do this even before the teens...didn't Remo the destroyer already have that in his repetoire?

[Aldizog]

I have to second Conan as a good example of what a fighter, any level, looks like in combat. Fighter's don't get new flashier moves, those are but a waste of time and an open oppurtunity for your opponent. A fighter is awesome because when the dragon charges he is the stone against which it breaks and he is the one that stands there until it is slain. He wards off rending talons with pauldron and shield, defends against gnashing fangs with sharpened edge, takes the batting wings, and dodges bone-shattering tail and returns it all with the razor-sharp blade in his hand. When the dragon is dead, he finally moves from the path, his armor drenched in blood.

I know you're not talking the movie, but I LOVE the Battle of the Mounds as an example of a high-level warrior fighting "one/few against many." It's just more to my taste than is the Crazy 88 battle in Kill Bill, or even Aragon vs. the orcs at the end of Fellowship. Conan uses terrain and traps and tries to only engage the enemy one-on-one. He doesn't wade in and count on his skill to save him when he's surrounded. A BECMI or 2E fighter of Name level (9th) would have to do this if they were facing an army of 40 and only had light armor.

Levels as I'd like to see them (mostly using the movie/TV versions):

Level 1-5: Real-world highly skilled and trained swordsmen or combatants
Level 6-10: The greatest swordsmen and martial artists that have ever actually lived; fictional characters in this range might be Inigo Montoya, Conan, Maximus, Titus Pullo, Will Turner
Level 11-15: Superhuman (in luck, skill, or some ability); Aragorn, Duncan MacLeod, Riddick, Prince Nuada
Level 16-20: Greatly superhuman and far beyond what training can accomplish, no amount of level-1s will ever be a threat; Achilles, The Bride, Obi-Wan

[Evard]

3.5 The barbarian is a good example of what a high level character should be... be able to shrug off damage. Fighters and Barbarians should be able to have a natural defense against magic that counters magics ability to kill them. Maybe as an added class feature or something but either make it where its almost impossible for them to fail saving throws or if they get hit by a attack that it doesn't destroy them...

[DragoonWraith]

The first thing to come to mind is the Warblade, honestly.

Anyway, Fighter 20 should be the ultimate in "badass normal", that dude without superpowers who's just so ridiculously skilled that he can hang with the superheroes anyway. This should be "mundane" (as in, attributed to his legendary skill and strength", but it should not be realistic. Reality gets left behind at like, level 5.

The Warblade does a pretty good job of this. He's got a Time-Stop-like effect, but it's not him slowing down everyone else/magically speeding himself up - he's just that damn fast, at least with that particular practiced routine. A friend of mine is a blackbelt - 1st degree, and I suspect that his tae kwon do dojo was less demanding than many - but with the katas (is that the right word) that he'd been practicing for years, he could move ridiculously fast. And he's the equivalent, maybe, of Monk 1. Fighter 20 should be able to go through those routines so fast that he can do it three times in the time it takes someone else to do it once, or whatever.

[mabriss lethe]

I think a decent example in fiction would possibly be Temper in Ian Esslemont's Night of Knives. He's not called that because he's easy to anger. He got the name as a member of The Sword, a group of elite soldiers in an army led by a god. He was the Sword's temper: The steel backbone that kept the rest of them together.

No matter what you threw at him, he never broke. Assassins? check. magicians? check. Divinely imbued champions? check. Elder beings of unimaginable power? check. He may not have killed all his foes, but he stopped them cold, one and all.

[Setra]

I see 1-3 being normal swordfighting, 4-5 being the limits of human ability.

6-10 I see as people surpassing human ability, but not too much (Say, The Hero, from Hero) Faster and stronger, but not gonna be cutting boulders in half

11-15 are people who are beyond human ability enough that it is very noticible (Say Kenshin or Sanosuke). People who can do clearly inhuman feats.

16-20 is basically people who can start to do things that can't even be remotely considered human. (Assassin, from Fate/Stay night).

I like to imagine Epic fighters to be something like Cloud and Sephiroth in Advent Children... slicing buildings in half and whatnot. Maybe something like this.. except Genesis is more like an Epic Duskblade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4)

Edit: Is there a feat that would let you do that?

[ericgrau]

Decked out with magical items and friendly buffs to do cool magical things yet without being a caster.

[Jayabalard]

Water Walk is a 3rd level spell.

Why would it take until EPIC for non spellcasters to duplicate this?it's that whole lack of magic thing.

[jseah]

Speed/Mobility, anti-defense, damage.

That's really all that's needed. Characters need to be able to change movement modes at around level 10 (insane jumps or fly, walking through walls, etc.); deal out SoDs or lethal levels of damage every attack by level 13; break down (meaning destroy) defenses like armour, barriers and magic at all levels.

In game terms, what I might consider to be a high level (15-20) melee char would consist of things that simply isn't normal anymore.
Move speeds in excess of 200ft, able to walk through solid walls and the ground. Spring attack is a must.
Every hit is a save or die, or just plain massive damage enough to kill. The trick is to not get hit.
Either sunder armour, dispel on hit, or just plain ignore defense (eg. touch AC)

[Sinfire Titan]

With Stormwrack, you can swap out slow fall for water running if you're a monk, and that's level 4.

How much slow fall would be worth a feat?

Considering constant Feather Fall CL=1/2 Character Level costs one instance of Shape Soulmeld, not that much.

[Evard]

lvl 15 Wizard: Fireball against the fighter

lvl 20 Fighter: *looks to his friend* Did he just throw a candle at me?

[Zaydos]

I know you're not talking the movie, but I LOVE the Battle of the Mounds as an example of a high-level warrior fighting "one/few against many." It's just more to my taste than is the Crazy 88 battle in Kill Bill, or even Aragon vs. the orcs at the end of Fellowship. Conan uses terrain and traps and tries to only engage the enemy one-on-one. He doesn't wade in and count on his skill to save him when he's surrounded. A BECMI or 2E fighter of Name level (9th) would have to do this if they were facing an army of 40 and only had light armor.

Levels as I'd like to see them (mostly using the movie/TV versions):

Level 1-5: Real-world highly skilled and trained swordsmen or combatants
Level 6-10: The greatest swordsmen and martial artists that have ever actually lived; fictional characters in this range might be Inigo Montoya, Conan, Maximus, Titus Pullo, Will Turner
Level 11-15: Superhuman (in luck, skill, or some ability); Aragorn, Duncan MacLeod, Riddick, Prince Nuada
Level 16-20: Greatly superhuman and far beyond what training can accomplish, no amount of level-1s will ever be a threat; Achilles, The Bride, Obi-Wan

I actually always put Conan at Lv 7-9 myself and I love the battle on the hill in the movie (Conan the Destroyer was a bit of a let down last time I watched it after not having seen it since I was... well younger than 6, but Conan the Barbarian is still epic) although I do think that Arnold didn't catch the animalistic charisma and the sharp cunning mind of Conan in his acting, but I was actually thinking in large part of how Arnold's fights looked when I mentioned Conan.

I'd agree with you on most of the characters you listed. Inigo was the best in a generation or two, but in a world where everyone else was only "normal" human range of 1~5 and even the 6-fingered man was simply a swordmaster within normal human limits (maybe Lv 6 or 7, the 2nd best in the world), I'd say putting Inigo 1 or 2 higher at 7 to 9 would be accurate; they were a close match.

Personally above 10th it really matters what kind of character you're talking about. I would say that the iterative attacks already represent being able to attack 2-4 times faster than is normally possible (you're getting 4 good openings in 6 seconds while being mauled by a dragon, and having to defend yourself). I do wish they got a way to make 2 or more attacks as a standard action. As to each class itself:

A 20th level fighter shouldn't be running on water or cutting trees bigger than their sword in half with a single blow (now trees no bigger than their sword I'd give them) which is difficult without ubercharging or some such (2-ft thick tree has 240 hp). I listed above what I see for fighter (and knight) they should be able to hold their position against any number, cutting and fighting with superhuman skill but nothing super flashy. They should be able to have 2000 hobgoblin soldiers charge them and attack them and survive, fighting while the sun is hidden by the arrows that fly through the air (although not all of those should be pointed at the right square).

A 20th level barbarian should be able to rend people in two, to crush and destroy. I actually have to say the ubercharger fits my picture of a level 20 barbarian, he leaps across the battlefield and his sword brings down the enemy in moments.

A 20th level ranger should be the master marksman hitting the target a mile away as his arrow flies true, or parrying blows with his two swords and spinning cutting down enemies all around.

The 20th level paladin, like the fighter, should stand strong. The forces of hell itself break against him and unlike the shore he does not wear away. He is inmovable. I see his blade shining with holy light, vanquishing fiends it strikes. Wish he had smite/encounter now.

Moving out of core.

The 20th level samurai should fight like a samurai. A single smooth and lightnng fast blow that cuts down the foe. Less of the "I stand untouched" than the fighter and knight who hold against endless legions, and more of "I shall defeat the greatest warrior". He should be victorious against one foe with ease, but able to be brought down by force of numbers, although at a grave cost. I'd say fighters should by 20th level be able to 1-shot a tree, but samurai should be much sooner. Less defense and more offense really than a fighter and more mobility focus.

The 20th level swashbuckler should be able to move and fight. By twentieth he should be able to run across water, to leap through the air spinning and striking. His blade should flow like liquid light, striking in a blinding speed that even the swiftest snake would envy, faster than the wing of a hummingbird or an insect.

The crusader should be similar to the paladin and fighter. I stand strong against endless. I am the wall, I am the rock. He's not flashy, but he stands tough. He doesn't fall. I see a long drawn out fight with the great beast, or a single man standing against a legion. So yeah fighter or paladin.

The warblade is similar to the samurai above, less defense but more boom. Actually... the warblade class does what I want to see the samurai do and if I wanted to make a samurai I'd use it.

The swordsage? This is when it should get to be anime style (I like anime). The warblade can, but here is where the full supernatural should enter. I see them moving in a sudden 1 second striking out with Time Stands Still and then just sitting there exhausted (comparatively the warblade just focuses his mind and strikes at even more minor opening then normal). They are flashier than anyone else, and should be the ones flying and running on water.

Swordsages, monks, and paladins/crusaders I see as needing Special Effects. Fighters and the rest should do things that work, with minimal effort and show, a single blow that brings down the beast. Swordsages, monks, and paladins should have supernatural abilities with flash and bang; running on water, the strike that creates an explosion of holy power, etc.

Not sure why I say that but that's there.

[Song Bird]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNm8JYdBoGk&feature=related

high lv psi-blade/monk vs high lv rogue/sorceress?

[Yukitsu]

My paladin/ToB mashup build was like Dante from devil may cry at level 15, and has been hedging into crisis core territory as he leveled up. At level 10, in theory (started at 15) he would have been like that old guy in samurai champloo, and like zorro at 5. At level 1, he'd be like any ol' guy with a sword and some training.

Looking at the genesis thing from crisis core, I can do everything he does, no casting levels, level 17.

[SurlySeraph]

A combination of aesthetics and what should be mechanically possible.

For example, in the latter video, the characters can easily chop through trees and can move fast enough that they literally can move over water.

What level, if any, should a D&D fightyer be able to clean slice through a full grown oak tree and or slice it to toothpicks

Shredding a tree to toothpicks should come around 17th-20th level, when the full casters get their doom spells. Also, I noticed that the fighters in that video can full attack while moving and have a +arbitrary Awesomeness bonus to all Jump checks. These are things that every near-epic fighter should have.


I see 1-3 being normal swordfighting, 4-5 being the limits of human ability.

6-10 I see as people surpassing human ability, but not too much (Say, The Hero, from Hero) Faster and stronger, but not gonna be cutting boulders in half

11-15 are people who are beyond human ability enough that it is very noticible (Say Kenshin or Sanosuke). People who can do clearly inhuman feats.

16-20 is basically people who can start to do things that can't even be remotely considered human. (Assassin, from Fate/Stay night).

I like to imagine Epic fighters to be something like Cloud and Sephiroth in Advent Children... slicing buildings in half and whatnot. Maybe something like this.. except Genesis is more like an Epic Duskblade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4)

Edit: Is there a feat that would let you do that?

I agree with every word of this. As for the feat, Supreme Cleave + the Doomstrike weapon property (lets you make a Cleave attempt after sundering) might do it. You'd definitely want an adamantine weapon to ignore hardness, though.

[Song Bird]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVAQJFOWUUc&feature=related

high lv fighter vs even higher (perhaps epic?) lv of fighter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtkhf-5PXKM

funny how no one posted this epic monk vs epic drunken master with like a lv 1 commoner that doesnt know anything

[Morty]

I'm definetly a fan of keeping stuff from becoming too flashy and blatantly logic-defying even on high levels. A high level fighter should be a master swordsman able to defeat anyone in a single duel or survive against overwhelming numbers of lesser warriors, not someone who demolishes buildings by headbutting them or whatever. It's a matter of aesthetics.

[Eldariel]

funny how no one posted this epic monk vs epic drunken master with like a lv 1 commoner that doesnt know anything

Maybe 'cause the movie sucks utter arse? That'd be my guess; generally, when looking for examples of kickassery, people pick examples from good productions :smallwink:

But yeah, said level 1 Commoner takes some Monk-levels before the end of the movie. Quite a few in fact, to actually put up a fight with that epic artifact. Of course not enough, but enough to kick randoms' ass back in this world.


To me? High-level Fighter needs to be able to make his enemies less effective and control them. When a Fighter attacks an equal level opponent, he cannot hope to kill them instantly; the opponent's defenses are the level of his offense.

What he CAN do though, is stop them from doing stuff, e.g. finishing complex spells, attacking someone else or similars. In other words, he can force whoever he's fighting to fight on his terms and focus on fighting him, and within what the Fighter allows.


As such, stuff like immediate action "Foil Action" abilities, increased reach (to represent the quick moves enabling him to act against opponents a bit further away; that is, reaching them before any action is taken), movement out of turn order, and so on are what I feel a high-level Fighter should be able to do, and what he needs to compete.

I feel much of what is a problem with believability is solved by letting it only be done with magic weapons. A tough enough Fighter with a magic sword can slice Wall of Force. A tough enough Fighter with a magic shield can deflect Rays. I feel, being able to do those without is near-epic or epic, but being able to do those with magic stuff is already Paragon.

To me, epic is the limitation where all real world limitations disappear and the Fighter can walk in the air and split mountains 'cause he's just that damn good. How he does it? I don't know, we've never seen Fighters above level 6, let alone level 20 on this planet. Physics doesn't back it up? Screw physics, I have money.

Maybe he just knows how to break the rules enough to do it anyways. But yeah, I think giving Fighters non-magical flight and teleportation and such before 20 doesn't really fit; giving them such Su-abilities is alright, but I want at least one mundane class in the game too, one that doesn't have any kinds of Su-abilities and does what he does through cunning, creative use of skills and weapons and martial abilities.

I feel that class should be the Fighter (and to lesser extent, the Barbarian and the Rogue). Stuff that's "theoretically" possible for a Human, if not for his insufficient reaction, accuracy and such? I feel that's the stuff a high-level Fighter should be doing.


I'm not posting video clips here since I don't have any handy that would perfectly illustrate what I want to illustrate, but I'm sure others have at least at some point thought similarly and can understand what I'm after.

[Yukitsu]

I'm definetly a fan of keeping stuff from becoming too flashy and blatantly logic-defying even on high levels. A high level fighter should be a master swordsman able to defeat anyone in a single duel or survive against overwhelming numbers of lesser warriors, not someone who demolishes buildings by headbutting them or whatever. It's a matter of aesthetics.

I've heard a lot of people who say that this aesthetics thing is one of the reasons high level fighters can't really compete. Doing the same ol' things but better just doesn't cut it into the teens.

[icefractal]

I see 1-3 being normal swordfighting, 4-5 being the limits of human ability.

6-10 I see as people surpassing human ability, but not too much (Say, The Hero, from Hero) Faster and stronger, but not gonna be cutting boulders in half

11-15 are people who are beyond human ability enough that it is very noticible (Say Kenshin or Sanosuke). People who can do clearly inhuman feats.

16-20 is basically people who can start to do things that can't even be remotely considered human. (Assassin, from Fate/Stay night).Pretty much agreed - I see 6th level as the dividing line between realistic human ability and mythical territory. I think cutting boulders in half might come a little bit earlier though - after all, you could be facing a Stone Golem at 8th level, and animated statues considerably before that, so you'd better be able to cut through stone.

I find the monsters you're facing at a given level are often a guide to what kind of stunts you should be capable of. When you're facing orcs and wolves, normal human skills work fine. When you're facing things like house-sized iron statues and demons made of living fire, then you need to get pretty crazy yourself.

[bosssmiley]

1-3 - Errol Flynn or movie Conan
4-5 - comics Conan or Banderas' Zorro
5-10 - LOTR Aragorn or Legolas, Riddick
11-15 - Hero, Crouching Tiger or Midnighter ("I've played this fight out a million times already. Do you want to know how you lose?")
16-20 - this is (or at least should be) animu territory...

This applies across all editions of D&D IMM. OD&D topped out at 10th level, 4E appear to go beyond the impossible at levels 21+. Let's just not talk about epic melee in 3E, m'kay?

[Morty]

I've heard a lot of people who say that this aesthetics thing is one of the reasons high level fighters can't really compete. Doing the same ol' things but better just doesn't cut it into the teens.

There's a vast gulf between stuff that violates my and other people's sense of aesthetics and "doing the same ol' things but better". Besides, it's not fighters' fault that WoTC's approach to designing magic was "let casters do whatever they feel like and hope that they won't".

[Spiryt]

Well, the thing is that 10+ level fighter can already (in 3.5 at least) do completely unhuman things - survive ridiculous amount of punishment, outpunch a bear, survive poisons like it was nothing, swing axe all day along (although that doesn't depend on level so much), survive walls of fire and acid consuming his body, shoot a crossbow 3 times in 6 seconds...

Et cetera. All pretty outstanding and without laser beams out of eyes, "dragonball" and stuff.

The whole problem is overall game design - those things doesn't matter despite their definite uncommon/supernatural character, mages can anyway do 20x more weird things, and so on.

Also those 'abilities' are usually result of lack of knowledge about general physics, human body, fighitng as well as lack of decision how realistic and balanced game's actually supposed to be etc.

In result, even considerably impressive capabilities of character doesn't matter much. Especially compared to the ability to instantly travel to a place 500 miles away with 6 seconds of mumbling, for example.

AFIK wizards were supposed to be "blasters"... and yet the got the reality abusing spells at weirdly low levels. Which explains a lot.

[sonofzeal]

I'm definetly a fan of keeping stuff from becoming too flashy and blatantly logic-defying even on high levels. A high level fighter should be a master swordsman able to defeat anyone in a single duel or survive against overwhelming numbers of lesser warriors, not someone who demolishes buildings by headbutting them or whatever. It's a matter of aesthetics.
I can see this to some extent. However, since the general rule of thumb seems to be that the "real world" ends around level 6, anyone well past that should be capable of superhuman (if generally physically possible) feats. Some examples...

- putting a sword (or even fist) through a stone wall
- out-wrestling big monsters (see: Beowulf)
- shooting a bullseye across the length of a football field or more.
- hitting multiple enemies with the same swing
- fighting off a small army, even under disadvantageous conditions (see: Cuchulainn)
- shrugging off powerful magics and effects
- outrunning a horse
- outswimming a shark
- striking faster than a snake
- pulling more than a workhorse
- doing all of the above while in heavy armor

None of the above offend logic, just our expectations of what humans are capable of, which don't even always live up to reality anyway. We're talking about people who have surpassed the normal limits by level 7 or so, and are now, by levels 10-15, better at their specialty than any human in history. An individual "high level melee class" might not be able to do all of those, but by golly he'd better be able to do some of them.

[taltamir]

a purely non magical class shouldn't even have 20 levels. How the heck can a fighter take a swim in lava or wrestle a dragon naked without magic?

My answer is, that they should be "magically boosted"... it might only be fluff, but that fluff changes entirely the way you view them... if they have higher HP because they turn magic inwards solely to boost their body's defenses and their combat prowess...

now they can cleave boulders, wrestle dragons, swim in lava, survive free fall from orbit, etc...
And can have appropriate physical appearance (aka; glowing where needed).

[Aldizog]

Well, the thing is that 10+ level fighter can already (in 3.5 at least) do completely unhuman things - survive ridiculous amount of punishment, outpunch a bear, survive poisons like it was nothing, swing axe all day along (although that doesn't depend on level so much), survive walls of fire and acid consuming his body, shoot a crossbow 3 times in 6 seconds...

Hell, a first level fighter in 3.5 (12 hp) with the Diehard feat needs to be stabbed nine times with a knife before he's likely to die. He can be shot twice with a ballista and not go down, or three times with a heavy crossbow. He can nearly always stagger away from a 40' fall.

[taltamir]

Hell, a first level fighter in 3.5 (12 hp) with the Diehard feat needs to be stabbed nine times with a knife before he's likely to die. He can be shot twice with a ballista and not go down, or three times with a heavy crossbow. He can nearly always stagger away from a 40' fall.

Ha, point; you don't need to be very high level to do crazy things...
this is why I say we should just say it is magic...

[AslanCross]

Water Walk is a 3rd level spell.

Why would it take until EPIC for non spellcasters to duplicate this? Especially since you have to actually keep moving during your turn (no full attack - must have a move action)

A monk certainly shouldn't be able to do this even before the teens...didn't Remo the destroyer already have that in his repetoire?

I said without magic. I didn't know of the existence of the Water Running feat. Did I offend you in some way? You seem rather hostile.

[rockdeworld]

Water Walk is a 3rd level spell.

Why would it take until EPIC for non spellcasters to duplicate this? Especially since you have to actually keep moving during your turn (no full attack - must have a move action)
Off-topic and already answered maybe, but note that True Seeing is a 5th level spell, and using a Spot check to defeat illusions is DC80 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot).

I visualize fights based on what the characters actually do. Most d20 fights I've seen are:
1. Move to enemy
2. Full-attack
3. Repeat

That's not interesting at all, but it's pretty common in games. I imagine uberchargers and tactical movers would have more interesting fights, like the ones in the videos. I can't think of guys who move water (like in Samurai Champloo) as fighters though, that makes me think ToB.

[Eldariel]

a purely non magical class shouldn't even have 20 levels. How the heck can a fighter take a swim in lava or wrestle a dragon naked without magic?

My answer is, that they should be "magically boosted"... it might only be fluff, but that fluff changes entirely the way you view them... if they have higher HP because they turn magic inwards solely to boost their body's defenses and their combat prowess...

now they can cleave boulders, wrestle dragons, swim in lava, survive free fall from orbit, etc...
And can have appropriate physical appearance (aka; glowing where needed).

I wouldn't play a Fighter fluffed as a magical warrior. That loses the appeal of being a mundane guy in a worldful of magic kicking ass without an ounce of it. Fighter drops into the acid bath? Well, he's just so ****ing tough that his skin melts very, very slowly. Maybe the molecules in the skin of a trained warrior just react in a milder way with acid.

Wrestling a Dragon...he can't do that due to size category limitations, but if he could, it'd simply be such extreme show of technique and skill (BAB, feats) and strength that while due to size he cannot effectively grab the dragon, he can be "all over it" as in to keep it occupied and just knows how to fell and damage creatures of that size with his bare hands. But it's not possible in D&D, mind, specifically because the size category limitations prevent grappling a creature two or more categories larger than you; for this very reason, I'd wager.

[taltamir]

I wouldn't play a Fighter fluffed as a magical warrior. That loses the appeal of being a mundane guy in a worldful of magic kicking ass without an ounce of it. Fighter drops into the acid bath? Well, he's just so ****ing tough that his skin melts very, very slowly. Maybe the molecules in the skin of a trained warrior just react in a milder way with acid.

yes, it is called "magic"... magic makes his training make his skin somehow resistant to lava, stabbing, and acid.
what kind of weird fluff is it to have a badass normal take a swim in lava and insist that it is NOT magic but "exercise" that make him survive?

now, that doesn't mean he needs to cast SPELLS on himself... lifting weights makes your muscles draw mana from the weave to strengthen them and make them tougher... as long as you are in a dimension where mana exist, your mitochondria equivalents can draw on mana to make you uber.

I wasn't trying to saying that he is a magic warrior who cast spells (although that is an option), but that magic takes at least some part in him taking a lava dip and surviving.

This also opens up quite a lot of abilities for fighter type characters...
<energy> resistance 10/- (stacking with self) as a feat, etc... WOTC pretends that non magical characters are completely non magical, and thus cannot have any "magical sounding" ability (which make them so weak), yet give them HP which allows them to do fantastical things anyways.

[Slayn82]

Personally, i sugest allowing the gestalting of Fighters and the other melee classes, or sorcerers, while Caster classes like Clerics, Druids, and Wizards levels are kept alone and receive aditional abilities, feats and skill points. A few adjustments like the Ranger or Paladin/Sorcerer only casting as Sorcerer, but having acess to the other class spell list at spell level x2, combining animal companion/mount with familiar abilities. The classes gestalted with Fighters receive +3 Hit Points if their Hit Dice is a D10 or better.

It may look harsh to casters, but the fact is that a lot of spells they have easy acess are way better than feats or entire class features, and any book published seems to come with at least the double of new spells than new feats. So lets give a few more to the other classes.

Also, how do you do a spot check to defeat an illusion? Do you see its pixels? Anyway, DC 80 is an ugly check in design terms, while interacting with the illusion can grant a will save. Its like saying "its simply impossible".
Should be a resisted check between the familiarity of the caster and the subjects with the illusion in question (like resisted Knowledge checks, or Knowledge vs Spot).



This also opens up quite a lot of abilities for fighter type characters...
<energy> resistance 10/- (stacking with self) as a feat, etc... WOTC pretends that non magical characters are completely non magical, and thus cannot have any "magical sounding" ability (which make them so weak), yet give them HP which allows them to do fantastical things anyways.

Well, they at least took the hint in 4th ed. and started with this trend. So, if the door is open, we can very well enter it in the 3.5.

[taltamir]

It may look harsh to casters, but the fact is that a lot of spells they have easy acess are way better than feats or entire class features, and any book published seems to come with at least the double of new spells than new feats. So lets give a few more to the other classes.

the problem with that, is that it takes so much time to sift through all those books to find the right spells...
So you get huge nerfs... unless you spend hours scouring books for obscure spells, at which point you are overpowered again...
the entire thing is badly done. at least in 4e you have X amount of at will, daily, and encounter abilities no matter what class you are.

[Signmaker]

I see a person defying the laws of sensibility with an iron weapon. And winning.

In the upper levels, the only difference between classes to me is the means they go about doing what they do. Fighters are just the same as wizards, except they chose to whack things with other things to impart their legacy on the world, rather than blowing things up or screwing with physics.

This is ignoring balance comparisons, obviously.

[Oslecamo]

I wouldn't play a Fighter fluffed as a magical warrior. That loses the appeal of being a mundane guy in a worldful of magic kicking ass without an ounce of it. Fighter drops into the acid bath? Well, he's just so ****ing tough that his skin melts very, very slowly. Maybe the molecules in the skin of a trained warrior just react in a milder way with acid.


So you're ok with the mundane warrior doing impossible stuff just because of the rule of badassery?

[Zaydos]

now, that doesn't mean he needs to cast SPELLS on himself... lifting weights makes your muscles draw mana from the weave to strengthen them and make them tougher... as long as you are in a dimension where mana exist, your mitochondria equivalents can draw on mana to make you uber.


... So fighters should be Jedi?

Okay, seriously I like the idea of letting fighters get nice feats. A lot of epic feats (Energy Resistance) wouldn't be unbalanced at 12th level much less 15th or 20th. Make them require a BAB of +11 or higher and wizards will never get them and clerics (who are supposed to be warriors of a sort, just not fighter level ones) could get them at like 15th+ level.

I also think fighters should get mettle. I just like fighters getting mettle.

[Jayngfet]

To me a high level fighter is the guy who can block most of your hits and still get in about five of his own with a single weapon. A round is six seconds, and in six seconds his weapon is a blur to fast to truly see. On the table you've got close to a dozen d20's flying without magic augmentations. He can punch through steel with his bare hands and can use a dagger to kill you six different ways.

In general a fight between two guys like this isn't flashy as such. Blades fly so fast you can't see them and movements are conservative, only when necessary. It looks to an average observer like two guys stepping here and there with their arms blurring.

[Eldariel]

So you're ok with the mundane warrior doing impossible stuff just because of the rule of badassery?

I'm ok with a mundane warrior doing stuff no living human could do because he's more durable and powerful than any human ever to have lived, yes. It's not impossible as in something that couldn't possibly ever happen, just impossible as in something nobody can do because of the speed the acid corrodes us and the amount of damage it does to us.

Note that even a high-level Fighter doesn't survive for LONG; he may survive for long enough to get out though. He survives couple of seconds; way longer than any human could, but he's not immune or anything; his system just doesn't corrode as quickly.

[taltamir]

I'm ok with a mundane warrior doing stuff no living human could do because he's more durable and powerful than any human ever to have lived, yes. It's not impossible as in something that couldn't possibly ever happen

your skin being "tougher" and resisting acid / poison / lava is actually impossible and could never ever ever possible happen.

sorry, but there is just absolutely no way for a mundane non magical / super powered being to do that without resorting to "magic" or "superpowers".

[Deepblue706]

I actually always put Conan at Lv 7-9

If you want to really determine Conan's power, make a level 20 Gestalt Fighter/Rogue (Feat Variant). Then, put him in a world where everyone else has to play by E6 rules.

[Eldariel]

your skin being "tougher" and resisting acid / poison / lava is actually impossible and could never ever ever possible happen.

*shrug* Depends. Lava I'll give you (because molten rock happens to be quite difficult to bar and even if you somehow manage, the heat still works anyways), but poison or acid? Poison is something that's eminently survivable; there is no poison in existence that has a 100% mortality rate that I'd know of. Sufficient doses, yes, but it doesn't automatically kill you. And Acid, well, it's simply a matter of how your skin reacts chemically.

Sure, it sorta sucks that organic matter is mostly made of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen 'cause acids tend to react rather strongly with all that, but maybe high-level fighter's "air layer" over his skin just allows him to keep the acid away from his skin a bit longer or something.


It's only slightly impossible, compared to something like disappearing and appearing 1000' from where you stand, conjuring matter or mindraping people. That's the kind of stuff magic does. There need be nothing magical about surviving a poisoning.

And there needn't be anything magical about surviving an acid bath or a lava bath; that's just a bit further down the road of being an insanely tough Fighter. Given how HP functions, you pretty much have to give some room for things surviving something they shouldn't be able to since basically everything has HP and if it has HP, it can survive until its HP have been consumed.

This applies even for non-living things like simple objects that absolutely cannot use any degree of magic and yet, whether it melts or not depends on how the d6s fall. You can explain the Fighter's durability through magic, but how about a fcking rock's? Or just an advanced high HD creature's?

[Slayn82]

Note that even a high-level Fighter doesn't survive for LONG; he may survive for long enough to get out though. He survives couple of seconds; way longer than any human could, but he's not immune or anything; his system just doesn't corrode as quickly.
Or instead, he is just very fast, and has an accurate survival instinct, that allown him to greatly reduce the effects of a possibly letal blown.

Do you know the lessen impact/defensive roll abillity of thieves? That should belong to fighter instead, and be fortitude based. And be used a few times per day, like 1+ Cons modifier. Also, techniques that added strenght damage or move penalties for enemies, stuns at low levels and trully crippling blows. True Strike as a Feat 1+Wis modifier times per day.

Of course, in core, if you use liberally Sunder and Great Cleave, you can destroy a lot of enemy equipment if needed, but most people are too lazy to repair them. (Attack Ioun Stone, Cleave into Spell component porch/HHH, Cleave into belt, Cleave into Mantle, etc.) Hey, you cant make scrambled eggs without breaking the eggs. Now, if you got an free dispell check when you broke said magical items.

[Zeful]

So you're ok with the mundane warrior doing impossible stuff just because of the rule of badassery?

Yes. Why shouldn't they be able to do incredible things because they've trained really hard?

Though technically, in 3.5 settings, everyone should be wizards, or sorcerers or what have you. That's because learning to bend reality over your knee is insultingly easy in 3.5, and there are no drawbacks to it.

This creates two options: De-power casters so that ease of learning=power used. Increase the power of non-casters so that they stop being glorified maids at higher levels.

[Deepblue706]

your skin being "tougher" and resisting acid / poison / lava is actually impossible and could never ever ever possible happen.

sorry, but there is just absolutely no way for a mundane non magical / super powered being to do that without resorting to "magic" or "superpowers".

For small vats, you could say the Fighter grabbed the edges to keep himself from falling all-the-way in, and just kinda...cooking or burning or...whatever.

Or you could interpret it as if the character is a figure of epic legend. In which case, "We have no goddamn clue how that happened" is perfectly valid.

[FerhagoRosewood]

So there's no such thing as someone training their wills and bodies past the point of physical limitations in order to become epic... But a bookworm can destroy a whole army and that's okay.

...I really don't get the realism argument being shoved in here.

[chiasaur11]

Epic?

Kung fu Hustle, way I see it.

Although, in general, I find the "Anything past ten is beyond anything a real person can do." attitude irritating. Epic, sure, fine. But ten?

[rockdeworld]

...conjuring matter or mindraping people.
And those are things we actually can do in real life (with SCIENCE! :P).

Since we're off-topic anyways, I thought I'd join in by saying that while surviving in lava may be impossible for a human being for long, it's not impossible.

[Slayn82]

Well, the thing is that a basic fighter should be more like an monk, without the suck part. I try to picture the high level fighter as someone like Musashi (http://www.onemanga.com/Vagabond/47/08/) in the manga Vagabond (http://www.onemanga.com/Vagabond/47/10/)(read the entire chapter if you can only give a quick glancing). Or Gatts in Berserk. Or the characthers in the manwha The Ravages of Time. Simply put, not someone that just stabs or swings, but that cripple their enemies and is ready to use any kind of tactics to win. Due to design, they took a lot of those elements from the basic classes to be explored in future prestige classes, and that didnt turned out as well as expected, specially for the melee classes. Also, there is the matter of the weakening of the Miscellaneous Wondrous items.

One way to restrain a little casters is to associate certain exotic spells with certain prestige classes, and only allown those of that prestige classes to cast it, or alternativelly, raise those spells levels for the other casters. Also Hardening the rules for prestige classes. Breaks the design of the system, but is good because adds flavor while balances things.

As a whole, my personal experience has show me that the system works reasonably well if you roll the dice in characther generation and allown high death tolls. Weaker prestige classes become viable options, for instance.

[SurlySeraph]

Epic?

Kung fu Hustle, way I see it.

Although, in general, I find the "Anything past ten is beyond anything a real person can do." attitude irritating. Epic, sure, fine. But ten?

This (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) explains it.

[Zeful]

Epic?

Kung fu Hustle, way I see it.

Although, in general, I find the "Anything past ten is beyond anything a real person can do." attitude irritating. Epic, sure, fine. But ten?

At ninth level most characters, through skills, can out do most records set by Olympic athletes. So I agree with the assessment that 10 level characters are better than normal people.

[Yukitsu]

I view level 5 as about the limit of what real world people can manage actually. After that and you're getting into those gritty hero stories. Kung Fu Hustle is how I view the 10-15 range.

[taltamir]

So there's no such thing as someone training their wills and bodies past the point of physical limitations in order to become epic... But a bookworm can destroy a whole army and that's okay.

...I really don't get the realism argument being shoved in here.

the bookworm is explicitly using magic, not their bookwormishness... not every bookworm can do so; only wizards...

and in fact, reading books has nothing to do with magic. Only wizards have anything at all to do with books, and they use exactly 1 page per spell level and magic inks. not exactly "reading" for power.

Clerics, psions, sorcerers, druids, favored souls, bards, warmages, etc etc don't use books.


maybe high-level fighter's "air layer" over his skin just allows him to keep the acid away from his skin a bit longer or something.
totally valid, but what causes said air lair? magic? ki?
subtle supernatural effects are still supernatural.


And those are things we actually can do in real life (with SCIENCE! :P).

Since we're off-topic anyways, I thought I'd join in by saying that while surviving in lava may be impossible for a human being for long, it's not impossible.

in theory. we cannot do either with science yet. We predict that we might be able to one day.

[Longcat]

In a world where we have people defy physics using their minds only and talking bears shooting lightning, any melee combatants above Level 5 should really look like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4). (both aesthetically and ability wise).

[Stormlock]

the character is a figure of epic legend. In which case, "We have no goddamn clue how that happened" is perfectly valid.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

Given sufficient levels, fighters should be able to do patently absurd things, like crawling out of collapsed temples the size of mountains, use blunt objects as though they were swords (Gen's pipe sword in Saga Frontier), and revive themselves from death (Gurren Lagaan spoiler: Kamina is probably my favourite example of this). and carve their way through armies in an impossibly short period of time.

Mechnic wise, a fighter shouldn't just have minor bonuses like Cleave and Sunder as feats they can take optionally; those should be practically givens. A level 12 fighter should be able to wipe out 100 goblins in 10 rounds. He should have things like extra reach, gain extra attacks every 4 BAB instead of 5, and physical stats to rival lycanthropes. He should get his full attack at the end of or during the length of a charge, while bull rushing someone that distance. He should have blindsense `10, triple range on ranged weapons, and be impossible to flank without at least 4 opponents.

An epic fighter should be, well, epic. Cleave through walls of force, attack so rapidly even a fine vermin swarm can be injured, and replicate spell effects like blur, true strike, feather fall or hell, holy sword just by their talent. Optional things they might or might not be able to do should be stuff like reflect spell, arrows should be a given.

A fighter should be to combat what a wizard is to a puzzle: the absolute hard counter. What a wizard can kill with some effort and one of their highest tier spells a fighter should kill without losing more hp then they can recover overnight (Which should be a lot more than usual, maybe 1 per hit die?). A dual wielding sword specialist should be an even match for a monster of equal HD naked. With a pair of swords it should die without touching him.

For a visual from the Matrix, a level 10 fighter should fight like an agent with a sword, while an epic fighter should look like Neo with a lightsaber.

[taltamir]

Pretty much sums it up for me.

Given sufficient levels, fighters should be able to do patently absurd things, like crawling out of collapsed temples the size of mountains, use blunt objects as though they were swords (Gen's pipe sword in Saga Frontier), and revive themselves from death (Gurren Lagaan spoiler: Kamina is probably my favourite example of this). and carve their way through armies in an impossibly short period of time.

Mechnic wise, a fighter shouldn't just have minor bonuses like Cleave and Sunder as feats they can take optionally; those should be practically givens. A level 12 fighter should be able to wipe out 100 goblins in 10 rounds. He should have things like extra reach, gain extra attacks every 4 BAB instead of 5, and physical stats to rival lycanthropes. He should get his full attack at the end of or during the length of a charge, while bull rushing someone that distance. He should have blindsense `10, triple range on ranged weapons, and be impossible to flank without at least 4 opponents.

An epic fighter should be, well, epic. Cleave through walls of force, attack so rapidly even a fine vermin swarm can be injured, and replicate spell effects like blur, true strike, feather fall or hell, holy sword just by their talent. Optional things they might or might not be able to do should be stuff like reflect spell, arrows should be a given.

A fighter should be to combat what a wizard is to a puzzle: the absolute hard counter. What a wizard can kill with some effort and one of their highest tier spells a fighter should kill without losing more hp then they can recover overnight (Which should be a lot more than usual, maybe 1 per hit die?). A dual wielding sword specialist should be an even match for a monster of equal HD naked. With a pair of swords it should die without touching him.

For a visual from the Matrix, a level 10 fighter should fight like an agent with a sword, while an epic fighter should look like Neo with a lightsaber.

that sounds so freaking awesome.. it sounds... well... epic.
I'd wanna play that :)

[FerhagoRosewood]

the bookworm is explicitly using magic, not their bookwormishness... not every bookworm can do so; only wizards...

and in fact, reading books has nothing to do with magic. Only wizards have anything at all to do with books, and they use exactly 1 page per spell level and magic inks. not exactly "reading" for power.

Clerics, psions, sorcerers, druids, favored souls, bards, warmages, etc etc don't use books.

But Clerics, Bards, Druids, and Warmages better themselves through training in their martial and magical abilities.

And Favored Souls, Psions, & Sorcerers have natural talents that gives them their powers.

Training & Might. Hmm... That sounds like a Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue only without magic.

You know it's one thing to say that Fighters and other melee users are weak. It's an even worse thing to demand that they use magic just to get better. That maybe your required flavor, but it most certainly isn't mine.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Why do fighters get to do this stuff? Because they behave in ways incogruous with our laws of physics. This could be "magic". Depending on how broad a definition you use, it is "magic". But calling it "magic" has undesirable connotations. Just say it's extraordinary and leave it at that.

[Slayn82]

Well, so lets start thinking about those extraordinary/supernatural fighter and melee class feats.

For instance, isnt this the way of the ToB?

[Rasman]

hmm...that's an EXCELLENT question, one that gives a lot of different opinions.

I tend to think of a legendary Swordsman, like Kenshin from Samurai X.

If looking at a more supernatural level, I'd have to say the Advent Children version of Cloud from FFVII.

But since you just said "Melee Class", THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TCEY7GK8Sc) is what I see when I visualize my Monk in a fight. Who needs a weapon to be awesome?

[Skaven]

I estimate high level (10+) characters to be the equivalent to our 'heroes' like Bruce Lee etc. That frighteningly fast combat in the movies is actually him slowing himself down.

These people are legends, of course the average person on the street wouldnt be past level 5. I see this guy as probably level 3-5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JajvkPWZeDU , fast, skilled and easily able to kick the butt of an average joe on the street who has 3hp. And those are some crazy moves he pulls off that wow most people.

[Orzel]

A level 20 fighter can dodge a regular man's attack while asleep and could kill the man by yawning armed as he awakens. His random movements would all be so fueled by combat prowess that he'd parry without thought. Not defending himself and intentional misses would require more concentration than coughing. He'd eventually stop actively watching attacks and focus more on the metagame.

[Arakune]

Poison is something that's eminently survivable; there is no poison in existence that has a 100% mortality rate that I'd know of.

Botox is lethal to anything on a concentration of 0.000001 mg/kg. Quite lethal to prety much anything, and I guess you can give enough of that to anyone to garantee a sure kill 100% of the time. linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LD50)

[chiasaur11]

This (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) explains it.

Read it.

Read the arguments against it.

Preferred, on the whole, the latter to the former.

Understand the opposite position, but I don't feel any inclination toward.

[RebelRogue]

totally valid, but what causes said air lair? magic? ki?
subtle supernatural effects are still supernatural.
Badassery! Which is an extraordinary ability, not Supernatural :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, I don't see what's wrong with this view! That's how martial based heroes in fiction do it, I'd say! Plenty of other Extraordinary abilities in the game have "unrealistic" effects.

[sonofzeal]

Well, so lets start thinking about those extraordinary/supernatural fighter and melee class feats.

For instance, isnt this the way of the ToB?
I've written a couple big posts on this subject, but Crusaders are no more "supernatural" (or "anime", whatever that means) than Rangers and Paladins, and Warblades don't get anything supernatural at all that I'm aware of.

However, they are very "Action Hero"-y. Rambo, Rocky, Xena, Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, that sort of stuff. Which, honestly, is a lot of what high level melee characters in general should be about IMO. ToB just starts doing it to a lesser extent at low levels (and some would argue that it, y'know, actually gets you there, unlike many other D&D melee classes).

The problem is that, short of magical bling, most melee classes don't get any better at defending themselves, they just get more hitpoints. Their BAB improves, but their overall Str and Dex (and Con) rarely do. Their accuracy improves, but their damage stays the same or rises very slowly. They gain a few new tricks, but they're generally tricks someone else could have been pulling six levels ago. The tricks they have tend to improve slowly, if at all; some, like Feinting, actually become less effective the farther you go.

Tis sad, really. :smallfrown:

[Draz74]

Shredding a tree to toothpicks should come around 17th-20th level, when the full casters get their doom spells. Also, I noticed that the fighters in that video can full attack while moving and have a +arbitrary Awesomeness bonus to all Jump checks. These are things that every near-epic fighter should have.

I agree with you -- that video is a good example of what I would peg at Level 17-20. And coincidentally, the things demonstrated hear work remarkably well with certain Tome of Battle abilities. +arbitrary to Jump checks? Sounds remarkably like Leaping Dragon Stance to me.

[Eldariel]

totally valid, but what causes said air lair? magic? ki?
subtle supernatural effects are still supernatural.

We actually generate one naturally (the whole thing with wind making cold more biting? Yeah, it's 'cause in wind, the air actually reaches your skin). Maybe the Fighter's training has just reached a point where he can regulate and enstrenghten those functions as needed.


I've written a couple big posts on this subject, but Crusaders are no more "supernatural" (or "anime", whatever that means) than Rangers and Paladins, and Warblades don't get anything supernatural at all that I'm aware of.

However, they are very "Action Hero"-y. Rambo, Rocky, Xena, Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, that sort of stuff. Which, honestly, is a lot of what high level melee characters in general should be about IMO. ToB just starts doing it to a lesser extent at low levels (and some would argue that it, y'know, actually gets you there, unlike many other D&D melee classes).

The problem is that, short of magical bling, most melee classes don't get any better at defending themselves, they just get more hitpoints. Their BAB improves, but their overall Str and Dex (and Con) rarely do. Their accuracy improves, but their damage stays the same or rises very slowly. They gain a few new tricks, but they're generally tricks someone else could have been pulling six levels ago. The tricks they have tend to improve slowly, if at all; some, like Feinting, actually become less effective the farther you go.

Tis sad, really. :smallfrown:

This is why I always use some kind of Defense Bonus and cut down on the magical AC buffs. Makes having relevant AC cheaper and more rational. In a Low-Magic Game I'm in right now, we add straight ½ Character Level to AC as a Dodge-bonus. Without magical sources of AC, that feels necessary.

Of course, since we also gain stat increases at a much more rapid rate, but they can't be all put into the same attribute, Dex can grow too. Then again, since Dex is capped by armor, that isn't necessarily as useful.

[Draz74]

We actually generate one naturally (the whole thing with wind making cold more biting? Yeah, it's 'cause in wind, the air actually reaches your skin).

Trust the Finn on this one, I say. :smallwink:

[sonofzeal]

This is why I always use some kind of Defense Bonus and cut down on the magical AC buffs. Makes having relevant AC cheaper and more rational. In a Low-Magic Game I'm in right now, we add straight ½ Character Level to AC as a Dodge-bonus. Without magical sources of AC, that feels necessary.

Of course, since we also gain stat increases at a much more rapid rate, but they can't be all put into the same attribute, Dex can grow too. Then again, since Dex is capped by armor, that isn't necessarily as useful.
I really like this houserule! Do non-melee characters gain the same bonus to AC as frontliners? Or is there another way to differentiate?

And I like the idea of more common stat increases, spread out across the spectrum. Actually, that's an idea - make the ap bonus be a +1 to all stats, instead of just a single one. Hmmmmm.... I'll have to think about that one. :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

I really like this houserule! Do non-melee characters gain the same bonus to AC as frontliners? Or is there another way to differentiate?

Well, the easiest way to rule it is to go by BAB; that is, give ½ BAB to AC. However, there are certain Medium BAB classes that clearly deserve full Defense Bonus and some High BAB classes that might not, so for complete experience, I'd just craft a bunch of tables and assign them to classes as seems more rational.

For example, Unarmed Swordsage (or Monk) being poor at dodging makes little sense (given that's their whole gameplan) so I'd give them full Dodge-bonus progression, while Barbarians being extremely adept at avoiding hits seems mostly dumb (given Barbarians don't give a **** about being hit), so they should probably receive merely the medium Dodge-bonus.

Combat Casters like Clerics and Druids would probably fall under Medium Progression. Of course, Wizards, Sorcs and company should gain Poor Progression as it's DEFINITELY not their gameplan to be in the frontline dodging blows. This, of course, leaves the issue of PrCs (using fractional progression makes multiclassing easy enough to adjudicate); BAB would be a simple guideline, while this kind of "apply as makes sense"-principle means you pretty much just adjudicate them on the fly.


In short, ½ your BAB makes for the simplest option (after giving everyone full Defense Bonus), or customized by class if you feel ½ BAB covers things inadequately. We're presently giving every class the full bonus since that just makes all sorts of sense in a Low-Magic World where every PC is some kind of a warrior, but in standard D&D, there's probably more of a call for alteration (though giving everyone the full progression DOES work too and balance-wise, it works just fine since all it really does is increase composite ACs a bit and move the brunt of your AC from magical boosts to inherent abilities).


And I like the idea of more common stat increases, spread out across the spectrum. Actually, that's an idea - make the ap bonus be a +1 to all stats, instead of just a single one. Hmmmmm.... I'll have to think about that one. :smallamused:

We're presently giving one point every 3/4 levels (so you DON'T get one on 1, 5, 9, etc.), but on every cycle of 4, you may only ever place two points into one stat (IMHO, it should be 1 point per stat, but DM preferred allowing a bit more focus).

It's working out quite well, +1 to all stats is also an option, but I like the customization offered by having choice. The real reason for the way we do it though is, of course, Low-Magic World again where we don't have stat boosters growing outta trees meaning our ability scores would be pretty much the same on 1 and 20 without this houserule.

[Draz74]

I really like this houserule! Do non-melee characters gain the same bonus to AC as frontliners? Or is there another way to differentiate?
Well, it sounds like they still use regular armor, too. So frontliners have all the full plate/dodge bonuses/whatever that they would have had normally.

I like not trying to also differentiate level-based AC bonuses by class; IMHO, that's a big weakness/imbalance with the UA class-based-defense bonuses rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm).


And I like the idea of more common stat increases, spread out across the spectrum. Actually, that's an idea - make the ap bonus be a +1 to all stats, instead of just a single one. Hmmmmm.... I'll have to think about that one. :smallamused:

4e does this at Levels 11 and 21, but not other stat-boosting levels. Just FYI.

A more popular houserule -- which is used elsewhere in 4e, as well as in SWSE, is to boost two different ability scores at each stat-boost level.