OOTS #696 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Babale]

I like how Belkar thinks the gate exploded... Funny short guy.

Also, V's line about audio is funny.

Edit: I was online and posted this as soon as I finished reading, and guess what? I wasn't ninja'd 14 times!

[Drakiin Magis]

Nice one! XD

[littlequietguy]

Awesome new comic! Happy!

[Tatterdemalion]

Awesome ^^ Though I wonder what BW says...

[Babale]

BlackWing indeed continues to be a positive influence on V, Tatter...something.

[Ezlo]

So do you think Girard will actually respond? Or is he going to just hang out and wait? Not sure how the story is going to move forward, but I'm excited to see what happens.

[Rhasimir]

Awesome ^^ Though I wonder what BW says...

He says "whisper whisper whisper whisper" :-)

[Babale]

Girard is probably dead, that's my guess. Can people who die from old age be reanimated? Preferably as something that keeps its spellcasting levels?

Also, by zooming in, I have determined that BW is saying, "whisper whisper whisper whisper".

EDIT: Dart! Foiled again.

[RMS Oceanic]

"And that would be wrong." :smallbiggrin:

I liked that line.

Still no obvious path for the story to take right now, what with no idea where to look for the gate, but I suspect a sideplot may be forced upon them.

And I hope Roy gets to call Girard out.

[Elan's Modron]

Loves it. Elan's stick-written message was the BEST.

Happy holidays Rich, and everyone! Happy New Year.

[Half-blood]

heh. I'm gonna have to sig that quote by V

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Thanks Giant, you're the best. Plain simple :smallamused:

[Tatterdemalion]

BlackWing indeed continues to be a positive influence on V, Tatter...something.

Yep, although I feel that it's not as much affecting V as telling V what to say... Assumingly, V is influenced by the coaching, but we're not getting huge signs as to how much...
Thanks, Rhasimir :D My eyesight's failing, it seems :)

[Ikialev]

Heh, 'normal ghost-human'.

[Kish]

So do you think Girard will actually respond? Or is he going to just hang out and wait? Not sure how the story is going to move forward, but I'm excited to see what happens.
Judging by how paranoid Girard's just shown himself to be, I wouldn't bet on his reaction to the message in the sand being friendly. On the other hand, the Order seems to be out of places to go if Girard simply ignores them.

[Forbiddenwar]

great comic. so did they see blackwing affect V? i wish i knew.

[Salty]

That was a good one! "Ghost-Human" is one of my new favorite lines. :smallbiggrin:

[magic9mushroom]

great comic. so did they see blackwing affect V? i wish i knew.

Belkar seemingly did.

[The Dark Fiddler]

He says "whisper whisper whisper whisper" :-)

I wonder how that was supposed to convince V that it would be wrong.

He didn't convince me, that's for sure.

[Forbiddenwar]

That was a good one! "Ghost-Human" is one of my new favorite lines. :smallbiggrin:

Smart of roy to ignore it and move on.

The best way to start my day is a new oots strip. Thank-you Rich!

[TriForce]

ty rich :smallbiggrin:

[Zanaril]

I don't get it... why would it be wrong? :smallbiggrin:

[Water-Smurf]

V still has a long way to go, yes, but s/he's starting to get there. :smallwink:

[Shale]

"There will be a proofing stage, yes."

I love it.

[Forbiddenwar]

The strip was a nice call back to previous strips. the gates explosion sound, the trapped toilet.

[Osmin]

Elan should spell some skill points in proper grammar :smallwink:. Also, i like Belkar comparing V to Girard.

[factotum]

Interesting to note that Elan, Haley and Vaarsuvius all survived Girard's little nuke. Kind of provides fuel for both sides of the "Girard is an idiot" argument, because if that explosion couldn't even take out V or Haley there's no way it would have hurt Soon--therefore, either Girard was being an idiot for placing such a weak explosion, or all the people who said the explosion was nothing more than a warning that was never intended to kill anyone are correct!

[Zevox]

Heh, very good strip. V's jokes were great. I'm quite tempted to sig her line about explosions solving social situations.

Zevox

[B.I.T.T.]

That bird rocks.

[Forbiddenwar]

"And that would be wrong." :smallbiggrin:

I liked that line.

Still no obvious path for the story to take right now, what with no idea where to look for the gate, but I suspect a sideplot may be forced upon them.

And I hope Roy gets to call Girard out.

Definite side plot time, perhaps
we will see haley's father soon.

[Cicciograna]

I didn't like Elan's message. Why the grammar is so awful? He's a bard, he should know his language up to the smallest shades of meaning: how comes that he cannot write it correctly?

[ScottishDragon]

Where was Mr.Scruffy during the comic?I didn't see him anywhere.Hope nothing happend to him:smalleek:

[Swordguy]

I didn't like Elan's message. Why the grammar is so awful? He's a bard, he should know his language up to the smallest shades of meaning: how comes that he cannot write it correctly?

Do yourself a favor - never read Twitter feeds. :smallamused:

[Etcetera]

Oh noes!
A EPIC SORESIRER!

Now, how did he get a stick with a leaf on?

[Razaele]

"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

I just found my favorite Vaarsuvius quote.:smallcool:

[-Sentinel-]

The Law of Vaarsuvius: "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

Brilliant. I'll keep that in mind. :smallbiggrin:


Where did Elan find a tree branch in the middle of the desert?


Edit: Damn, I got ninja'd twice in the same minute! How can that be?! I'm a pirate, and everyone knows that pirates own ninjas!

[Zanaril]

Another question occurs to me; why is Belkar smirking in that last panel?

[Kish]

Because Vaarsuvius admitted that it's wrong to blow up one's companions.

[Ruduen]

Interesting to note that Elan, Haley and Vaarsuvius all survived Girard's little nuke. Kind of provides fuel for both sides of the "Girard is an idiot" argument, because if that explosion couldn't even take out V or Haley there's no way it would have hurt Soon--therefore, either Girard was being an idiot for placing such a weak explosion, or all the people who said the explosion was nothing more than a warning that was never intended to kill anyone are correct!

V, yes. Haley, not so much, with evasion and possibly improved evasion. Seeing as she doesn't have wounds, she was either healed off-screen or made her saving throw.


The Law of Vaarsuvius: "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

Brilliant. I'll keep that in mind. :smallbiggrin:

So would it be a linear or logarithmic curve?

[Kobold-Bard]

I didn't like Elan's message. Why the grammar is so awful? He's a bard, he should know his language up to the smallest shades of meaning: how comes that he cannot write it correctly?

Agreed. I thought he was supposed to be getting more intelligent, why is he writing like a five year old?

Despite that, good comic and thanks as always.

[Cestrian]

I didn't like Elan's message. Why the grammar is so awful? He's a bard, he should know his language up to the smallest shades of meaning: how comes that he cannot write it correctly?

Elan isn't actually all that bright. It's easy to miss but it's mentioned now and again.

[Shale]

Low INT is low INT.

[Mando Knight]

Thank you, Blackwing.

[Big Hungry Joe]

I sort of like how Haley is only confused when V amends er answer. Not quite sure what to make of that.

[Lissibith]

I suppose there's no reason for bardic-quality oration and written grammar to go hand-in-hand. Read aloud (with the exception of 'a epic' but some people DO say it like that) Elan's note is pretty much fine.

And I can't see "whisper whisper whisper" anymore without thinking of Caboose. Not that crossing two geeky fandoms in my mind is a bad thing...

[-Sentinel-]

So would it be a linear or logarithmic curve?
Logarithmic. I think zero is the asymptote: even if you use a nuke, there's a chance that you still have to deal with social situations.

[hewhosaysfish]

Blackwing == Jiminy Cricket

[Shale]

Indeed. For instance, you could have social disputes with cockroaches. Or fire elementals.

[MReav]

I have an idea on how Girard is going to react to the Order.

V killed Girard when V used Familiacide. Or Girard, with his epic wardings survived, but now views V (and V's compatriots) as an enemy

[Wou]

Anyone noticed tha Elan is using the stick form OotS "coat of arms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html)"? :P

[Somewhere]

Even ignoring Haley's potential two picks of Rogue abilities (since she's supposed to be at least 15th level?), she's not that fragile. Going with the speculated minimum of 14 con from the geekery thread, average HP for her would be at least 85 HP.
...wait, Evasion, which Rogues get at lv 2 is the make Reflex save for zero damage ability? And Fireball-type explosions are generally Reflex? What the hell, D&D :smallconfused:

V would be the tough one....if it this was an actual game. Can't stop the author demanding 1's and auto-save.

At least seeing V affected should kill the 'only target lawful-good' idea.

Edit:

I have an idea on how Girard is going to react to the Order.

V killed Girard when V used Familiacide. Or Girard, with his epic wardings survived, but now views V (and V's compatriots) as an enemy

Think he's a descendant of mama black dragon?

[glowface]

Read aloud (with the exception of 'a epic' but some people DO say it like that) Elan's note is pretty much fine.

Also, epic seems to be inserted later on. Maybe Elan thought, warning about a soresirer approaching does not sound important enough, so he added the mention of the soresirer being epic.

What I like, is the !!1! in handwriting.

[Babale]

I have an idea on how Girard is going to react to the Order.

V killed Girard when V used Familiacide. Or Girard, with his epic wardings survived, but now views V (and V's compatriots) as an enemy

Because Girard is a dragon now?

[ScottishDragon]

Where did Elan find a tree branch in the middle of the desert?

exactly what i was wondering!

[Shale]

Some people think "Draketooth" implies he's part-dragon.

[Hamilkar]

Hu? Belkar and V are understanding each other?
And Elan is here behaving especially stupid.

I wonder what Xykon is doing now? Bet he also has problems finding the gate?

[Lissibith]

Also, epic seems to be inserted later on. Maybe Elan thought, warning about a soresirer approaching does not sound important enough, so he added the mention of the soresirer being epic.

What I like, is the !!1! in handwriting.

I was personally disappointed (in the internet meme part of my mind) that there was no eleventy in there

[glowface]

Yeah, geting stick in a desert for an order of the stick bard should be an easy task. Maybe they have one of those guild-benefits they introduced around DMG II (3.5).

[MReav]

Think he's a descendant of mama black dragon?

More like a third cousin four or five times removed.


Because Girard is a dragon now?

Well, "Greenhilt" name is based on his family sword, perhaps "Draketooth" indicated he has Dragon ancestry.

[Hithros]

Eh....Had to read over V's line a couple times to make sure I had the right idea.

But this was a fun bit! And it looks like Elan had to add in "epic" at the last minute, since it's all squished.

[delguidance]

I like how Roy is looking quizzical in the second to last panel and then Haley is looking quizzical in the last panel. The different parts of what V is saying are curious to them in different ways for the win.

Also Elan & Haley: totally grabbing each others butts in the last three panels.

[Kish]

Agreed. I thought he was supposed to be getting more intelligent, why is he writing like a five year old?
People on the forum claim Elan is getting more intelligent almost as often as they claim Belkar is getting less evil.

You get used to it. Neither has support in the actual comic.

[Mr. Pin]

Lol, Vaarsuvius. Really now?

Nice line though. What are they going to do next? I mean, head to Kraagor's gate? I'm worried about what the linear guild is doing too- they might pop up at any moment. They're never gonna be a match for the order, though.

[JustRain]

I almost broke my neck trying to read this upside down, and almost burned my eyes before I realized there wasn't really anything written there. Bah!

Good comic though.

[DwarvenExodus]

Are spoiler tags necessary? This is the discussion thread for comic 696 - who would be reading it that wasn't prepared for spoilers?

In other news, I wonder whether Girard will get Elan's message.

[Belkster11]

I almost broke my neck trying to read this upside down, and almost burned my eyes before I realized there wasn't really anything written there. Bah!

Good comic though.

It says:

Help! There's A Epic Soresirer Litch Comming 2 Take You're Gate!!1! Luv, Elan

I'll just sig that now.

[martinkou]

Logarithmic. I think zero is the asymptote: even if you use a nuke, there's a chance that you still have to deal with social situations.

If you somehow managed to nuke off all living things in your world, then you surely won't have any more social situations to deal with.

[DabblerWizard]

Anyone noticed tha Elan is using the stick form OotS "coat of arms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html)"? :P

Good catch.

I'm glad we've got an update, and I'm glad the OOTS gang is remaining consistent.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Interesting to note that Elan, Haley and Vaarsuvius all survived Girard's little nuke. Kind of provides fuel for both sides of the "Girard is an idiot" argument, because if that explosion couldn't even take out V or Haley there's no way it would have hurt Soon--therefore, either Girard was being an idiot for placing such a weak explosion, or all the people who said the explosion was nothing more than a warning that was never intended to kill anyone are correct!

There is another possibility though. What if the explosion was also intended to send a signal to someone a good bit more lethal that the gate was being searched out, and whoever was doing the searching managed to trigger the programmed illusion of Girard?

[Zevox]

Even ignoring Haley's potential two picks of Rogue abilities (since she's supposed to be at least 15th level?), she's not that fragile. Going with the speculated minimum of 14 con from the geekery thread, average HP for her would be at least 85 HP.
Yeah, but 85 hp is pathetic for a level 14-15 character. Anyone but especially frail spellcasters should be over 100 hp by that point. And it's far less than any epic-level Paladin would have.

Zevox

[denthor]

Because Vaarsuvius admitted that it's wrong to blow up one's companions.

I knew I would find this type of message from you. Let me just say I now feel guilty about laughing about all those strips when V cast explosive ruin on Belker.

[Sewblon]

How does Roy know that Girard is keeping an eye on that spot at all? The illusion said that it is a completely random spot in the middle of the worlds largest desert.

[Somewhere]

Yeah, but 85 hp is pathetic for a level 14-15 character. Anyone but especially frail spellcasters should be over 100 hp by that point. And it's far less than any epic-level Paladin would have.

Zevox

But would that stop below average rolls + saving for half?

(aside: the system's dependence on dice and relative lack of spell damage bonuses, and thus having really low minimum damage is a bit wonky to me, honestly :smallconfused:)

[whitemane]

Blackwing is quickly becoming more endearing to me than Mr. Scruffy!!!

[HeseMCMXCI]

If you somehow managed to nuke off all living things in your world, then you surely won't have any more social situations to deal with.

Actually, if you blew up everything living, there would still be the undead. And you might be schizophrenic, so, logarithmic

[whitemane]

How does Roy know that Girard is keeping an eye on that spot at all? The illusion said that it is a completely random spot in the middle of the worlds largest desert.

He doesn't... But he does know that 1. Girard is notified of the illusion being triggered and 2. Girard knows the location of the coordinates that he gave Soon (he might've rolled randomly for the coordinates, but he still had to know what they were to give them to Soon AND set up the booby trap.)

Chances are, if Girard is still alive, Girard would have the illusion alarm go off and would at least be curious enough to scry on the spot to see what happened.

[Kurien]

I keep reading people saying that Girard was stupid for casting a boobytrap not powerful enough to kill Soon. But has anyone ever considered magical decay? It seems the illusory message was created not long after the breakup of the OotScribble, and in that case it's been many decades since it was cast. If magic follows any laws of nature, then I'd imagine such a high concentration of magic power would be subject to diffusion, gradually losing potency with time.

Or maybe I don't understand how magic in the OotSverse works at all. Maybe magic is extremely stable, and Girard actually did cast a spell of insufficient power to kill even mid level characters like V, Elan, Haley and Roy

[Somewhere]

Plot armour
The system allows rolling all 1's and saving to halve that result. Sure, the odd's 1 in 6^however many die, then multiply by whatever you need for save. Plot armour nails that without a sweat.

[Shale]

V already survived the 48d6 damage from being inside the full blast radii of two Meteor Swarms in one fight. What's one more explosion?

[Omergideon]

People on the forum claim Elan is getting more intelligent almost as often as they claim Belkar is getting less evil.

You get used to it. Neither has support in the actual comic.

Indeed. Elan has been getting more serious and sensible, but not necessarily more intelligent.

Anyway, I am more interested in reviewing this particular issue. The short version is that it is good. The long version begins now.

Good:
1) I often begin by complimenting the artwork of the comic. This is largely because despite the more simple style offered by a web comic with stick figure characters there is often a great deal of variety and skill shown. Most especially I am often very impressed by the use of simple effects to create the wonderful images. For instance, the effect of the writing in the sand is a very simple overlay but the smoothness of it and the character it adds to the image is highly impressive. I have often said that the Giant knows his medium well and acts on that and this comic reinforces that assessment.
2) As for the plot of the strip in general (before looking at specific moments) I am as a whole happy. It manages to very effectively sum up the character's responses to the Girard situation and whilst not "tying up the loose end" and preventing future plot developments it does provide a sense of closure for the issue at hand. This is very effective and allows the next issue to go anywhere that is wanted with the upcoming story.
3) Regarding the specifics of the strip I think as much as any this one again encapsulates the personalities of the various members of the OoTS and demonstrates them very well. I could go on and mention them all by name, so I will. Roy takes charge and tackles the issues head on (whilst again showing how he has grown since the start with his mature responses to Elan etc). Haley acts as the peacemaker and foil for the various other characters of the order. Durkon quietly works in the background doing his job without drawing attention to himself. Belkar is immediately concerned with his own desires and needs. Elan exhibits his naive and trusting side, plus his cheerfulness and impossible sense of "never give up" by instantly getting to work with no ill will. And V shows the dynamic with blackwing and his own logical approach extremely. More below.
4) I am certain that some will think of the Belkar/V moments in the last line of panels as a simple joke. And yes it is very funny indeed. But I think it has a higher purpose. The way that Belkar explicitly compares V to Girard reinforces the comparisons many have made between the scribblers and the OoTS with a definite character association. Now there will not be perfect comparisons between character but the connections cannot be denied. I think this is indeed the start of a characterisation arc whereby the OoTS see how they are like the Scribblers and learn from their mistakes. It is a lot to read into a small exchange but one I cannot help but notice. The animosity and arguments within the order will have been thrown into sharp relief by this event for the characters and the audience.
5) Finally, regarding the humour. There are plenty of very funny little comments by a number of characters, especially from V, which never seem to miss the mark for me. I really enjoyed reading the comic.

The Bad:
1) The only major negative (as I see it) is the logical problem raised by the trap being meant to kill Soon but not even killing a wizard with no (known) magical protections up. That is just odd enough to distract me at least.

In conclusion I rate the comic as 4 stars. Not the epic required for anything better and no major action but everything else working out very well.

As another side note I think this comic has reinforced my belief in Roy as being the main protagonist of the story. He has often been the focus of the main and side quests and even when dead most of the comic was dealing with the fallout of that and the effort to change it. However with Roy raising the same concerns and questions that many of us readers have expressed recently I am more thoroughly convinced. Just a small addendum.

[moonbiter]

Nice shout out to that old saw: "There are few problems that cannot be resolved through the judicious application of high explosives."

[Leolo]

I keep reading people saying that Girard was stupid for casting a boobytrap not powerful enough to kill Soon. But has anyone ever considered magical decay? It seems the illusory message was created not long after the breakup of the OotScribble, and in that case it's been many decades since it was cast. If magic follows any laws of nature, then I'd imagine such a high concentration of magic power would be subject to diffusion, gradually losing potency with time.

Or maybe I don't understand how magic in the OotSverse works at all. Maybe magic is extremely stable, and Girard actually did cast a spell of insufficient power to kill even mid level characters like V, Elan, Haley and Roy

It could be only 20% real. Girard is/was an illusionist. But as an epic spellcaster he should know his spells so it is not good enough anyway.

[talkamancer]

Please tell me that is a Kentucky Fried Movie quote.

Classic.

[martinkou]

V already survived the 48d6 damage from being inside the full blast radii of two Meteor Swarms in one fight. What's one more explosion?

Maybe we'll have a "Vaarsuvius facts" thread soon. Starting with

V can take 10 out of his d4 hit dice, every level.


I keep reading people saying that Girard was stupid for casting a boobytrap not powerful enough to kill Soon. But has anyone ever considered magical decay? It seems the illusory message was created not long after the breakup of the OotScribble, and in that case it's been many decades since it was cast. If magic follows any laws of nature, then I'd imagine such a high concentration of magic power would be subject to diffusion, gradually losing potency with time.

Or maybe I don't understand how magic in the OotSverse works at all. Maybe magic is extremely stable, and Girard actually did cast a spell of insufficient power to kill even mid level characters like V, Elan, Haley and Roy

There're plenty of ancient, powerful runes, magical traps or magical items in various D&D campaigns - actually, the more ancient something is, the more powerful that something tends to be. So I don't think there's any universal rule on magical decay.

[nli10]

Cheers for the strip at this busy time of year.

MERRY XMAS TO YOU ALL (even the evil ones and those that prepared explosive runes this morning)

[HeseMCMXCI]

I didn't like Elan's message. Why the grammar is so awful? He's a bard, he should know his language up to the smallest shades of meaning: how comes that he cannot write it correctly?

It´s true that a bard, no matter what his INT is, should know how to use his words. However, in this cartoon fun overrules reason :smallsmile: Therefore Elan won't spell properly until his INT grows, and i shouldn't think that will happen any time soon...

[TheSummoner]

I'm still fond of the "magical decay" theory. If magic got less potent as time wore on, then the blast would become weaker so long as Girard was not actively maintaining it. It would explain why when it was originally cast, Girard believed it capable of killing Soon, and yet even the squishiest members of the Order survived it when it went off ~50 years later.

Edit: Regarding Elan's horrible grammar. Bards typically deal with the spoken word, not writing. Everything there would make sence if spoken out loud instead of read. (the "a epic soresirer" could be explained by Elan adding "epic" after already writing "a soresirer" and not thinking to change "a" to "an"). As for the "gate!!1!," just a joke about what you might see on the internet.

[ThreadKiller]

:belkar: Yeah, gosh, who ever heard of party members trying to blow each other up? Vaarsuvius?

Thanks, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Kurien]

So are you saying that 80% of the explosion was illusory/fake? I suppose that V had a high enough Intelligence to disbelieve it, and that would also explain why Durkon had a :smallconfused: expression instead of :smalleek:-- his will save is also high enough to disbelieve the illusion, and thus the explosion seemed much smaller. Rogues have evasion. It doesn't explain how Elan escaped unscathed. Maybe his wisdom/intelligence is so low he didn't realize there was danger?

[Mooglefrooglian]

If it's magical decay, then why has every single magical weapon the party carries (see: +5 frost bow for Haley, being in a basement for 10+ years) not lost it's power?

Answer: It hasn't becuase there is no magical decay, or so it appears.

So, as always, I'm for it being a trick. If you can't kill a non-epic wizard with no protection on, you can't kill an epic level Paladin (purely damage wise, anyways).

So, we can safely say Girard has lied once. And if we view Girard as being an epic level illusionist who's goal is to trick people away from his gate, things become a bit more suspicous when he starts lying.

<sarcasm>Could it perhaps be, as suprising as it is, that his entire rant might have been a lie? Surely not, because as an illusionist, everything he says HAS to be true. And we still don't have any evidence of him lying!</sarcasm>

[martinkou]

I'm still fond of the "magical decay" theory. If magic got less potent as time wore on, then the blast would become weaker so long as Girard was not actively maintaining it. It would explain why when it was originally cast, Girard believed it capable of killing Soon, and yet even the squishiest members of the Order survived it when it went off ~50 years later.


Well, as another post mentioned earlier, the squishiest member of the OOtS (V) apparently survived at least 48d6 from two full meteor swarms at near range, cast by an epic sorcerer. And then he survives other abuses like having a big slab of rock hitting him and being strangled. Unless Xykon is throwing a d2 in place of a d6 - V likely has more hit points than even a regular fighter at his level.

[Menas]

... What are they going to do next? I mean, head to Kraagor's gate? I'm worried about what the linear guild is doing too- they might pop up at any moment. They're never gonna be a match for the order, though.

I'm guessing that....

The OotS is going to have to shadow Xykon now. They don't know what gate he's going to next and the only way to get an idea is to follow him. And they'll have to hurry - the elves will probably let the OotS know when Xykon is leaving but there's no guarantee they'll be able to give them any information about Xykon's whereabouts after he's left. O-Chul and company went to Kraagor's gate, so they can notify Roy if they see Xykon coming and possibly help stall until the OotS gets there, so there's no reason to go there. The only unguarded gate right now (except for maybe Girard himself) is Girard's, so they're going to have to follow Xykon to see if he leads them there. It's the only way they'll be able to find it if that's the direction Xykon is heading.

On the other hand, if Xykon ends up going to Kraagor's gate that could be a good thing, as the OotS would be behind him, and O-Chul and friends would be in front of him.

[ishnar]

Well, if V ever said something t-shirt worthy, this is it. "It seems reasonable..."

The funniest thing about Elan's upside-down and backwards message is that it would probably be the MOST likely to have the desired effect--make someone curious enough to stop and read it.

[Fjolnir]

So we're not looking at the "epic Chaos Hammer" theory? I think that would explain the "LG Roy gets tossed, N V gets injured, the 2 CG characters survive unscathed at ground zero" idea, especially since Chaos Hammer has will for half, and half damage to non lawful, non chaotic people...
if everyone makes their save (roy is implied to have very good wisdom, will is the good save for wizards) this would make sense.

[vlaandhael]

:elan:SORESIRER! priceless

[Wou]

Maybe it wasn't magical explosion at all? Girard was epic illusionist not epic evoker, and I doubt he took effort to research some epic "mini nuke" spell instead of some illusion. Maybe he just buried conventional explosives with magically triggered detonator in the sand?

[fractal]

Maybe it wasn't magical explosion at all? Girard was epic illusionist not epic evoker, and I doubt he took effort to research some epic "mini nuke" spell instead of some illusion. Maybe he just buried conventional explosives with magically triggered detonator in the sand?
"That sort of thing is not in the book. No plastic explosive with magic detonators!"

[Thalnawr]

One thing that could explain Elan's lack of damage taken is his Dashing Swordsman PrC. I believe at one point Rich told us that the class features would end up being whatever is dramatically appropriate. And I could see evasion or some other similar ability being appropriate at this time. Or he could have just "jumped to safety (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html)" again.

[Mjoellnir]

I'm really wondering if Girard is still alive. Soon was an old man when Shojo was a child. Of course Girard is a spellcaster, so he has a lot of options to extend his lifespan.

[Somewhere]

Explosions that level mountains but cause nary a scratch on important characters? That's as unlikely as punching the skull off a lich.

That aside, I can buy theatrics as much as I can buy puns inflicting more physical damage. And in this universe, it apparently does.

[Koretsu]

Loves it. Elan's stick-written message was the BEST.

Happy holidays Rich, and everyone! Happy New Year.

Nah. The best part was when you suddenly notice he wrote the message with The Stick. :smallbiggrin:

[martinkou]

Explosions that level mountains but cause nary a scratch on important characters? That's as unlikely as punching the skull off a lich.

That aside, I can buy theatrics as much as I can buy puns inflicting more physical damage. And in this universe, it apparently does.

Plot armor, my friend. 50x the damage reduction of adamantine, no arcane spell failure.

[Wou]

"That sort of thing is not in the book. No plastic explosive with magic detonators!"

Whose quote is this? I googled it, and only thing I found was this thread :smallbiggrin:
And why? TNT (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0241.html) exists in OotSverse, and making conditional fireball near box of TNT, would be much easier then conditional nuke.

[Starscream]

It just occurred to me that :elan: actually used "!!1!" in written text.

Apparently he is familiar with internet grammar. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an account on this very site.

[fractal]

Whose quote is this? I googled it, and only thing I found was this thread :smallbiggrin:
Towards the end of the novel Juxtaposition (wherein a technological planet and a fantasy world collide), the robot Sheen acquires a (supposedly) comprehensive book of magical spells, well-indexed - exactly the sort of thing you ought to be scared about a robot getting ahold of. Even the book, however, has no spells for plastic explosives with magic detonators.

http://www.amazon.com/Juxtaposition-Apprentice-Adept-Piers-Anthony/dp/0345349342

[Dark Faun]

It's funny how I want to neuter Belkar with a lawn mower. :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

Maybe it wasn't magical explosion at all? Girard was epic illusionist not epic evoker, and I doubt he took effort to research some epic "mini nuke" spell instead of some illusion. Maybe he just buried conventional explosives with magically triggered detonator in the sand?
Oh come now, it's not like specialist wizards only cast spells from their specialized school. We've seen V, an evocation specialist, use a sizeable number of spells from everything but her banned schools, for instance. If Girard wanted to kill someone, he'd use some potent destructive magic, not some mundane item, which would certainly be less powerful than the magic.

Zevox

[fractal]

Oh come now, it's not like specialist wizards only cast spells from their specialized school. We've seen V, an evocation specialist, use a sizeable number of spells from everything but her banned schools, for instance. If Girard wanted to kill someone, he'd use some potent destructive magic, not some mundane item, which would certainly be less powerful than the magic.
Yes, because magic is all-powerful and has no weaknesses whatsoever!

[Zevox]

Yes, because magic is all-powerful and has no weaknesses whatsoever!
No, but it's certainly more powerful than mundane items.

Zevox

[good_lookin_gus]

So we're not looking at the "epic Chaos Hammer" theory? I think that would explain the "LG Roy gets tossed, N V gets injured, the 2 CG characters survive unscathed at ground zero" idea, especially since Chaos Hammer has will for half, and half damage to non lawful, non chaotic people...
if everyone makes their save (roy is implied to have very good wisdom, will is the good save for wizards) this would make sense.

That was my first suspicion, too. The problem is that Chaos Hammer is Divine only (I think. My job's web filter suddenly includes d20srd.org :smallfrown:). Going by his statements in 694 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html), we can probably rule out Divine caster levels. So it would seem like he spent some additional XP making a blast to kill someone with more HP and better saves than Roy :smallconfused:. I'm a little disapointed. Maybe he's supposed to teleport in shortly after to finish the job; but several rounds to heal have already passed. At this point, I'm hoping that he was killed or imprisoned shortly after making the message.

[Zevox]

That was my first suspicion, too. The problem is that Chaos Hammer is Divine only (I think. My job's web filter suddenly includes d20srd.org :smallfrown:).
Not only is it divine only, it's domain-specific. If you don't have the Chaos domain, you can't use it even if you're a divine caster.

Zevox

[Querzis]

Well, as another post mentioned earlier, the squishiest member of the OOtS (V) apparently survived at least 48d6 from two full meteor swarms at near range, cast by an epic sorcerer. And then he survives other abuses like having a big slab of rock hitting him and being strangled. Unless Xykon is throwing a d2 in place of a d6 - V likely has more hit points than even a regular fighter at his level.

He did that while spliced. This really doesnt tell us his real hp.

[infiniteviking]

Anyone noticed tha Elan is using the stick form OotS "coat of arms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html)"? :P

...Good grief, it's The Stick! :D

Thanks for the brilliant comic, Giant! Elan's writing made me crack up and V's "..And that would be wrong" made me crack up again. Well worth waiting for!

[Dr Happypills]

I kind of like the Epic Chaos Hammer idea.

Good V quotes, good comic.

Edit: Huh. Didn't realize it was domain only. Oh well, nevermind.

[good_lookin_gus]

Not only is it divine only, it's domain-specific. If you don't have the Chaos domain, you can't use it even if you're a divine caster.

Zevox

He actually spent the XP for that waste of magic!?! It's Xykon's Moderatly-Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) all over again!

[Hyoumu Yau]

:vaarsuvius:"...And that would be wrong"

Well that was fun. As brilliant as always. :smallbiggrin:

[J.Gellert]

Rock on, Vaarsuvius.

Rock on.

[Wou]

Oh come now, it's not like specialist wizards only cast spells from their specialized school. We've seen V, an evocation specialist, use a sizeable number of spells from everything but her banned schools, for instance. If Girard wanted to kill someone, he'd use some potent destructive magic, not some mundane item, which would certainly be less powerful than the magic.

Zevox

Sure, but, correct me if I'm wrong, spell that could kill epic level paladin with single explosion should be stronger than, for example, lvl 9 meteor swarm, so it should be epic level one. And from what we know about Girard, he preferred illusions and deceptions instead of brute force, so I hardly can picture him spending considerable time and resources, to research spell being pure brute force instead of something “smarter”.
Unless, he went completely crazy with revenge on Soon, and made that spell just for one reason of killing him, in that case he just epically failed.

Nonmagical explosives could also deteriorate, which would explain why explosion was not strong enough to kill anyone.

[madtinker]

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero.

Please, please, please make this a t-shirt!

[Lissou]

Since nobody mentioned it (at least in the first two pages) the accent in "vis-à-vis" is the other way around. You know, if you care.

[Deuce]

Interesting to note that Elan, Haley and Vaarsuvius all survived Girard's little nuke. Kind of provides fuel for both sides of the "Girard is an idiot" argument, because if that explosion couldn't even take out V or Haley there's no way it would have hurt Soon--therefore, either Girard was being an idiot for placing such a weak explosion, or all the people who said the explosion was nothing more than a warning that was never intended to kill anyone are correct!

Or the explosion was itself an illusion.

I mean, it's not like he's an Evoker.

[awibs]

I didn't like Elan's message. Why the grammar is so awful? He's a bard, he should know his language up to the smallest shades of meaning: how comes that he cannot write it correctly?

I can think of many extremely talented professional actors and singers who still text message like morons. I can also think of two who can't spell, punctuate, or capitalize for the life of them in any form of written word. It's odd looking, because people in those fields tend to have huge vocabularies and use very quaint, complex idioms. It's super-weird to see such a high-level piece of language horribly misspelled, but it absolutely does happen. One of these gentlemen specifically defended himself that as a performer, SPOKEN language was his business, not written. That could very well apply for Elan.

Hell, even for authors of the written word, I can't see why one has to hold them to higher standards of consistent spelling than Shakespear :P

You know, and rule of funny.

[Somewhere]

If the explosion was an illusion, then how did Roy physically get sent flying?


He did that while spliced. This really doesnt tell us his real hp.

The strangling and second Meteor Swarm was after the splice got knocked outta him by the huge slab of stone.
That aside, did the splices actually confer HP? Or was it a case of loads of arcane power = heavy LA?

[Deuce]

If the explosion was an illusion, then how did Roy physically get sent flying?


I don't know, a very good illusion?

[Boogastreehouse]

Another appearance of...

the stick.

Edit: After posting, I went through the thread and saw that I was indeed ninja'd multiple times.

I believe we last saw The Stick here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), in the hands of Inkyrius.

I believe there have been more sightings, although I can no longer recall them. Does anyone know of a thread?

[Almaseti]

Great strip. I think this is one of the best ones we've had in a while. I like how it has a little bit of everything.

[Crystalline]

Glad to see the new comic finally posted :D

V is my favorite character, glad to see he got dialogue ^_^

[Trixie]

So, the strip was like...

A great disturbance in the Forum, as if dozens of Girard haters suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced when V survived :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, the only lynchpin of their argument fell apart like a house made from cards :smalltongue:

[ThePhantasm]

Well, I'll be honest, this was the weakest OOTS strip in a long time in my opinion. Wasn't particularly funny at all, and something seemed off - the pacing or something. I can say it is a rare occasion when I don't like a strip though.

[Mc. Lovin']

That one was the funniest in ages, nice giant!

[Shale]

So, the strip was like...

A great disturbance in the Forum, as if dozens of Girard haters suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced when V survived :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, the only lynchpin of their argument fell apart like a house made from cards :smalltongue:

Yes, V has never survived damage that by all plot logic should have been lethal before. Samantha never happened, Xykon's Meteor Swarms never happened. Whatever.

[the_tick_rules]

I love Belkar's smile when V tries to pull back from her explosion comment.

[Snake-Aes]

Temporary hit points.

[Cheesegear]

Ah Durkon...The good little Cleric. While the rest of the party is talking and making 'big boy' decisions, Durkon is in the background, saying nothing, healing them.

I also like the expression changes in the last two panels reflecting their different personalities as they react to '...and that would be wrong.'

:roy: :smallconfused: => :smallannoyed:
:haley: :smallannoyed: => :smallconfused:
:belkar: :smallannoyed: => :smallamused:

Elan, as always, isn't reactive. Probably doesn't understand.

[Trixie]

Yes, V has never survived damage that by all plot logic should have been lethal before. Samantha never happened, Xykon's Meteor Swarms never happened. Whatever.

Aaaaaaand... how many of these things were low level spells, instead of epic-paladin-killing nukes?

Yes, even MS, as it happened to hit spliced/buffed V.

And what exactly Samanthad did, excuse me? Counterspelled much?

Oh, pretty much all of them? Whatever :smallamused:

[Mooglefrooglian]

So will Durkon ever get any sort of attention? He healed them, then we dont see him the rest of the comic.

I feel embarrased whenever I see him now.

[liq]

That was a great strip. Practically a joke in every panel. Well done.

:smallbiggrin:

[SoC175]

Has anyone of the OOtS ever seen the ghost-paladin?

[Shadowbane]

I actually laughed out loud when I read the last panel. Nice!

[Knellroy]

Have anyone conidered that Girard didn't actually wanted to kill Soon? If he did there would be no-one left to gard Soon's gate; something that he proberly didn't want. A explosion that was designed to merly annoy, and not kill, a epic paladin would both fit the strip, by not killing V, and the story by ensuring that the gate remains safe.

[Blaznak]

Ah. I get it now. The invisible raven thingy on 'V's shoulder told him it was wrong. Got it.

[Kish]

Have anyone conidered that Girard didn't actually wanted to kill Soon? If he did there would be no-one left to gard Soon's gate; something that he proberly didn't want. A explosion that was designed to merly annoy, and not kill, a epic paladin would both fit the strip, by not killing V, and the story by ensuring that the gate remains safe.
Telling Soon, "I'm freely disregarding the oath and so is Serini, I want you dead, hahaha!" and blasting him not hard enough to kill him--or, worse, killing whoever he sent as a messenger--would be all kinds of stupid. If anything could convince Soon he really needed to seize Girard's Gate, that would be it!

[Shale]

Yes, even MS, as it happened to hit spliced/buffed V.

V took one MS while spliced and buffed, and still took substantial damage from it. Then s/he took another one after Superb Dispelling and being hit in the face with an enormous rock. Let's be charitable and say that the first one was reduced by 75% - that's still 30d6 damage to a character who would have needed to roll all 4's on d4 hit dice to have 70 HP.

Plot. Armor.


And what exactly Samanthad did, excuse me? Counterspelled much? Oh, pretty much all of them? Whatever :smallamused:

Samantha hit Haley and V with the same Lightning Bolt. Haley mentioned that she couldn't make the save because Samantha's spell DC was too high, meaning V, whose Dex is unremarkable, almost certainly failed it. The spell KO'd V, and left Haley so weak that a single, no-metamagic Magic Missile took her to 0 HP. Any spell that deals that much damage to Haley should Kill Vaarsuvius, straight up. Except, you know, plot armor.

Edit: Wait, I'm sorry. Maximized Lightning Bolt. Meaning that, by definition, it dealt the same amount of damage to Haley and V. There isn't even a "the damage dice came up 1" excuse.

[SoC175]

Another appearance of...

the stick.

Edit: After posting, I went through the thread and saw that I was indeed ninja'd multiple times.

I believe we last saw The Stick here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), in the hands of Inkyrius.

I believe there have been more sightings, although I can no longer recall them. Does anyone know of a thread? Actually that's a different stick. Too many leaves, different top

[Sewblon]

He doesn't... But he does know that 1. Girard is notified of the illusion being triggered and 2. Girard knows the location of the coordinates that he gave Soon (he might've rolled randomly for the coordinates, but he still had to know what they were to give them to Soon AND set up the booby trap.)

Chances are, if Girard is still alive, Girard would have the illusion alarm go off and would at least be curious enough to scry on the spot to see what happened. That's my point, how does Roy know that this particular illusion has any kind of alarm? For all we or The Order know illusory Girard was lying.

[Shale]

How do we know it wasn't set by a team of giant squirrels wearing a Lady of Pain costume? He's assuming that Girard told the truth until proven otherwise, because what good does it do them to not leave a message?

[Sewblon]

How do we know it wasn't set by a team of giant squirrels wearing a Lady of Pain costume? That would be a pretty cool Planescape tie-in now that you mention it.
He's assuming that Girard told the truth until proven otherwise, because what good does it do them to not leave a message? A message written by anyone but Elan sure, but I don't see this ending well for some reason.

[DBear]

How long is Elan's message going to last in the bleedin' desert? :smallyuk: A decent wind will obliterate the message.

[Elderac]

Got my copy of Don't Split the Party followed by a new strip.

Yep, good day.

[Red XIV]

Well, "Greenhilt" name is based on his family sword, perhaps "Draketooth" indicated he has Dragon ancestry.
Or, one of Girard's ancestors may have slain a dragon, taken one of its teeth as a trophy, and passed it down through the family.


How does Roy know that Girard is keeping an eye on that spot at all? The illusion said that it is a completely random spot in the middle of the worlds largest desert.
Because Girard was expecting Soon to move on his gate, and even bet money on when it would happen. He'd surely have something set up to signal him if the trap goes off, and to verify that it was Soon so that he could cash in on his bet with Serini.

[Conuly]

Has anyone of the OOtS ever seen the ghost-paladin?

No, but O-Chul was there, I'm thinking he told them about Soon. I had that same thought at first!

[Foryn Gilnith]

How long is Elan's message going to last in the bleedin' desert? :smallyuk: A decent wind will obliterate the message.

A few minutes. Long enough for Girard to cast Greater Scrying.


something seemed off - the pacing or something.

Indeed, this was different. Something was off. Didn't perturb me much, though. Had nice humor.

[Mauve Shirt]

Heehee. V and Blackwing are quickly becoming my favorite characters. I still love Elan though.

[Raven the Rogue]

I'm not sure which part of this strip I liked more- Elan's spelling or Belkar calling V out on blowing him up.

[Dancing_Fox]

"Originally Posted by Wou
Anyone noticed tha Elan is using the stick from OotS "coat of arms"? :P"

...Good grief, it's The Stick! :D

Has anyone else noticed that it still has its single leaf?
Not bad for a stick that has been transported most likely in a bag of holding since the start of the adventure, across continents.

Maaaaaaaaaaaybe it's a magic stick. Eternally living. Special powers even - as well as being useful as a giant writing implement.

Any ideas?


Hell, even for authors of the written word, I can't see why one has to hold them to higher standards of consistent spelling than Shakespear :P

Ok. You got me. I know you're being clever - I'm not just sure HOW clever. As my dad told his English teacher "I wouldn't have any trouble creating rhymes in sonnets either if I just made up the words like Shakespeare did."



"Originally Posted by V
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

Please, please, please make this a t-shirt!

That's terrorist talk, that is! ;-)

[Calmness]

Huh. The bird is pretty useful after all.

[Magugag]

No, but it's certainly more powerful than mundane items.

Zevox

I have to disagree. Enough mundane explosives can match any magical spell under Dungeons and Dragons rules. Even epic ones.

EDIT: For damage, that is.

[Pyrian]

Awesome. I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this comic. :smallcool:

[Wadoka]

Indeed. For instance, you could have social disputes with cockroaches. Or fire elementals.

Given the other team's penchant for Element Elementals, I'd wager "Ionizing Radiation Elementals" instead of plain old "Fire"

[lio45]

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone's pointed it out already, but there's a spelling mistake in the second panel. "vis-à-vis" should be spelled that way, not with an 'á'.

It probably won't matter to most readers anyway (English speakers) but it still should be corrected before going in print.

[Dr Bwaa]

Fantastic. Last three panels are simply wonderful.

[emileboucher]

I'd like to make a precision about one of the French expression V used in that comic. Actually it's vis-à-vis, rather than á. This caracter (á) doesn't exist in French..

Also.. this was a nice strip! ^^

[SavageWombat]

[QUOTE=Razaele;7584052]"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."
QUOTE]

T-Shirt! T-Shirt!:vaarsuvius:

[TheNovak]

Surprised that it wasn't brought up in the strip itself, but the fact that Roy was the only one hurt by the explosion lends credence to the theory that the spell only targeted those of Lawful alignment.

Also, V's line is going into my Cool Quotes file.

[Shale]

V is being healed from explosion damage in the first panel. Haley presumably used Evasion.

[Dvandemon]

I'm thinking of a formula for V's theory. X=the size of the explosion* and n=number of social situations it can solve. I'm thinking X to the nth power
*i.e. radius/diameter (whatever you use to measure sphere volumes)
...:l

...:smallredface:

Eh what do I know? I suck at math:smallsmile::smalltongue:

[snikrept]

So we're not looking at the "epic Chaos Hammer" theory? I think that would explain the "LG Roy gets tossed, N V gets injured, the 2 CG characters survive unscathed at ground zero" idea, especially since Chaos Hammer has will for half, and half damage to non lawful, non chaotic people...
if everyone makes their save (roy is implied to have very good wisdom, will is the good save for wizards) this would make sense.

This has merit, seeing as the intent of the blast was to fry Paladins. Though their saves should be pretty beefy too.

EDIT - it occurs to me that Girard may have researched an epic spell specifically to slay Soon and only Soon, everyone else whose name is not Soon Kim in the blast radius takes half damage or something... the splash damage / imprecision of the blast being part of the DC offset for building the spell.

[Silverraptor]

Nice one Rich!:smalltongue:

And just to let you know on the off chance that you read this, I finally received the 4th book and just read through all the extra features you added; commentary and all.
(Chances aren't high that you will notice this post out of all the many, but some of your recent talk in the commentary led me to believe that you do read through this once in a while. So it I figured it wouldn't hurt to try.)

Anyways, I will be looking for those special things you mentioned. And thank you very much for getting me involved in D&D and online web comics.

So again,
Thank you Rich!:smallsmile:

[factotum]

Seriously, the only lynchpin of their argument fell apart like a house made from cards :smalltongue:

Really? I thought the lynchpin of the argument against Girard was that he was utterly and entirely wrong about Soon, and I don't think V surviving that explosion disproves that in any way...

[Keld Denar]

Am I the only one who realized that V is channeling Black Mage a bit there in the last couple pannels?

"For every problem, there is a proportionally large Hadoken." - Black Mage

[Aaron]

Nice to see Blackwing acting as V's adviser. Good comic. :smallsmile:

[warrl]

Well, as I see it we are stuck with these theories as being plausible.

1) Plot armor
2) Girard seriously miscalculated the strength of explosion needed
3) The spell deteriorated.
4) It's a ruse, designed to persuade the uninformed to look elsewhere.

If the 4th theory is correct, then the other members of the Order of the Scribble - or anyone sent by them (but unfortunately not necessarily those sent by third-generation heirs) - would see through the ruse and be of sufficiently high level to not be overly troubled by the explosion.

Uninformed gate-seekers, who survive the explosion, will presumably either continue looking in OTHER parts of the desert (and Girard has been notified and will be scrying) or head for Serini's gate (and Serini has been notified and will be scrying).

Oh, and by the way... krak-a-thoom (http://egscomics.com/?date=2009-12-01)

[seekmore]

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way.

Maybe the explosion was only designed to irritate and inconvenience Soon? You have something that is splashy and impressive, but not designed to melt the desert, and anything that happens to standing nearby, into glass.

Paladins can't survive on faith alone. Imagine all of the supplies any sizable force would need to bring with them being consumed in a fiery blast, along with the injuring or killing of mounts. I'm not terribly familiar with the rules for paladin mounts, but not every paladins has a mount suitable for desert travel(evidenced by the shark-mounted paladin from Azure City). Those animals, along with pack animals, at the very least would try to escape, if not be killed. Injured paladin mounts would be dismissed. Lower-leveled characters would have taken damage from the blast and would need healing.

We now have a force of exhausted paladins, stranded in the desert with no supplies and limited mobility.

The blast would also act a beacon for raiders, scavengers, and desert predators.

No doubt Soon and many paladins would get out of the desert alive, but it would take much longer than it did getting there. There would definitely be casualties. Furthermore, Soon would be enraged because he would know that it all played out exactly like Girard wanted it to happen.

Girard can scry them at his leisure and enjoy Soon's struggles, not to mention giving him even more time to prepare for Soon's arrival. Soon has to march home first, and then find Girard's Gate, wherever it actually is.

[Terbovus]

Another great one.

I love the fact that Elan made a keyboard typo - dropping the shift key on one of the exclamation marks to leave a '1' - even though he was writing in the sand with a stick. Nice touch, though I can't help suspecting the giant does this sort of thing just to see how long til someone notices :smallsmile:


hehe, and worth noting that at least two people noticed before I did :smalltongue:

[HandofShadows]

Excellent strip. Some of the lines these characters get are fantastic.

[ThunderCat]

Yes, even MS, as it happened to hit spliced/buffed V.I didn't think the soul splice gave V anything but spells. I took Xykon's "Your soul shenanigans were real flashy, but they had one weakness: they were shackled to your lame mid-level ass" and "I used to think spells equalled power too..... You know what does equal power? Power." to mean that V might have gotten ultimate arcana power (in the form of spells), but that s/he hadn't got any other kinds of power (hp, saves, BAB, skills, ability scores) to go with it. Of course, V would probably still have been buffed with protective spells, but not enough to compensate. Plus, as Shale said, s/he also took one after the souls had left.

Good strip btw. I second (or whatever number we're on) the request for a T-shirt quoting V.

[TooManySecrets]

Am I the only one who realized that V is channeling Black Mage a bit there in the last couple pannels?

"For every problem, there is a proportionally large Hadoken." - Black Mage

Notice how Belkar smiles? That's not because he likes violence (he does), but because he knows that V is doing the same thing that he's doing - pretending not to think violence is the first and best solution.

Oh, and also: "And if that don't work? Use more gun fireball"

[Zanaril]

Am I the only one who realized that V is channeling Black Mage a bit there in the last couple pannels?

"For every problem, there is a proportionally large Hadoken." - Black Mage

V has been chanelling BM for a while.

"The universe hates me"? Who else do we know who says that?

[TengYt]

Haha, I love V's expression in the last panel :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

I didn't think the soul splice gave V anything but spells.

It clearly affected him in other ways as well...for example, the fiends said that he wouldn't get any XP for killing anything because his effective level would be so high. He also seemed pretty darned durable for a 13th-level wizard during his fight with the ABD.

[martinkou]

It clearly affected him in other ways as well...for example, the fiends said that he wouldn't get any XP for killing anything because his effective level would be so high. He also seemed pretty darned durable for a 13th-level wizard during his fight with the ABD.

The Ancient Black Dragon didn't really hit Darth V with anything. Other party members have been eaten by dragon-like and other creatures before and it never seemed to do much damage to them - apparently the large creatures in OOtSverse never chew before swallowing.

[Mc. Lovin']

1) Plot armor
2) Girard seriously miscalculated the strength of explosion needed
3) The spell deteriorated.
4) It's a ruse, designed to persuade the uninformed to look elsewhere.

5) Girard wanted soon alive to suffer his lack of knowledge of the gate

[ScreamingGod]

That there is a number 1 mixed in with all of Elan's exclamations points nearly made my day. :biggrin: Cheers Rich

[jidasfire]

It just occurred to me that :elan: actually used "!!1!" in written text.

Apparently he is familiar with internet grammar. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an account on this very site.

If Elan had an account here, he'd be constantly linking to TVTropes, talking about moral justification, misspelling character names that are readily available in the comic, turning the most minor events in the story into 20 page discussions over his opponents' word choice, and bringing every discussion back to Miko somehow.

I kid, I kid. Mostly.

[Oglokoog]

If Elan had an account here, he'd be constantly linking to TVTropes, talking about moral justification, misspelling character names that are readily available in the comic, turning the most minor events in the story into 20 page discussions over his opponents' word choice, and bringing every discussion back to Miko somehow.

I kid, I kid. Mostly.

You underestimate his intelligence.

[Conuly]

You underestimate his intelligence.

Overestimate, maybe, but underestimate???? :smallconfused:

[Somewhere]

I figure that a ton of arcane power is cool enough stuff that V wouldn't get hit die along with however much the LA was. Like how a pixie has a bunch of non-HP related bonuses and gets +4/+6 LA. And epic arcane is very much cooler than whatever the pixie gets on its own.

That said, Giant hasn't said one way or another, has he? :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Rich has not said how many hit points (if any) Vaarsuvius got from the Splice, but since the Meteor Swarms weren't all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) before the Splice was lost...

[Asta Kask]

All I can say is this won't be over anytime Soon.

try the veal, it's excellent...

[martinkou]

Rich has not said how many hit points (if any) Vaarsuvius got from the Splice, but since the Meteor Swarms weren't all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) before the Splice was lost...

... Not to mention V was already severely damaged, buff-less, and helpless (at least -5 to reflex saves!).

[Adeptus]

"...and that would be wrong." :vaarsuvius:

[Menas]

Rich has not said how many hit points (if any) Vaarsuvius got from the Splice, but since the Meteor Swarms weren't all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) before the Splice was lost...

The fiends made it sound like V. would only have access to the 'arcane powers' of the people he was spliced to, and didn't mention him having access to anything else:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

Personally, I don't believe V. gained any extra hit points from the splice at all. He had access to all of their protective spells (that were cast) until Xykon dispelled them, which helped a lot. But I don't believe there were any additional hit points gained.

[Menas]

... Not to mention V was already severely damaged, buff-less, and helpless (at least -5 to reflex saves!).

I'm thinking Xykon rolled a critical miss on that one =).

[Taekwondodo]

"...and that would be wrong." :vaarsuvius:

This made me laugh so hard everyone else was wondering what was wrong! :smallbiggrin:

[Kaytara]

The "ghost-human" joke was funny, and I enjoyed the punchline, but mostly this was just interesting and intriguing. It was really weird seeing Belkar just call someone out on something, what with HIS history. Weird seeing him call V by his full name, too, the only other time he's ever done that, I think, was back when the ship had sailed without him and Haley. Otherwise it was always "elf" "androgynous twit", "pointy-eared pissbucket" or "Ears".

"Trying to blow each other up", heh. You gave the game away there, Belkster. :D

I wonder why Belkar's so pleased in the last panel. Whatever the reason, this bodes well for future chance of V-Belkar comedy. XD

Sad to see the role Durkon's playing here. Healing the party members and staying silent for the rest of the time. Typical.

[ThunderCat]

It clearly affected him in other ways as well...for example, the fiends said that he wouldn't get any XP for killing anything because his effective level would be so high. He also seemed pretty darned durable for a 13th-level wizard during his fight with the ABD.'Effective' being the key word here. In D&D (3E), the amount of xp gained doesn't depend solely on your class levels or hit die, but is calculated after your ECL. I imagine a template that gives you the spell power of three epic casters would warrant a pretty large LA, increasing V's ECL considerably, while V's class level would stay the same. Of course, it's just a theory, but it does fit with Xykon's comments on V's lame mid-level ass.

As for the durability part, it's beginning to look like circular reasoning. "V shouldn't have been able to survive the explosion", "V has survived worse before, like Xykon's meteor swarms", "That doesn't count, V had the soul splices then", "The soul splices didn't give V anything but spells", "But they would have to have done something more, or else he wouldn't have survived". There's really not much arguing with that :smallamused:

[martinkou]

"Trying to blow each other up", heh. You gave the game away there, Belkster. :D

I wonder why Belkar's so pleased in the last panel. Whatever the reason, this bodes well for future chance of V-Belkar comedy. XD

Sad to see the role Durkon's playing here. Healing the party members and staying silent for the rest of the time. Typical.


In a future strip...

* Belkar kissing V *
V: Honey?
Belkar: Yes?
V: I have a secret to tell you
Belkar: Just say it, honey. I won't tell anyone.
V: Inkyrius and I...
Belkar: And you what?
V: ... were a gay couple.
Belkar: :O!!!
Belkar: AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

[good_lookin_gus]

It would look like V was pretty buffed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) against the first Meteor Swarm. Surviving the second one was more of a stretch, but I still think it's feasible. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) you'll notice three empty potions, with only two going into O'Chul. V could have drank one. A Resist Energy or Protection from Energy would apply to each of the four 6d6 attacks.

[martinkou]

It would look like V was pretty buffed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) against the first Meteor Swarm. Surviving the second one was more of a stretch, but I still think it's feasible. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) you'll notice three empty potions, with only two going into O'Chul. V could have drank one. A Resist Energy or Protection from Energy would apply to each of the four 6d6 attacks.

V's buffs didn't grant him damage immunity to fire or damage resistance. Also, Fire Shield lasts only one round per level, and judging by V's appearance, should have already expired by the time he went to Xykon's dungeon.

So the most that V could have got from his buffs was succeeding his 1/2 Reflex save from the first meteor swarm. But even just 1/2 the damage of a full meteor swarm can kill a mid level wizard, or at least get him down to <10HP.

[good_lookin_gus]

V's buffs didn't grant him damage immunity to fire or damage resistance. Also, Fire Shield lasts only one round per level, and judging by V's appearance, should have already expired by the time he went to Xykon's dungeon.

So the most that V could have got from his buffs was succeeding his 1/2 Reflex save from the first meteor swarm. But even just 1/2 the damage of a full meteor swarm can kill a mid level wizard, or at least get him down to <10HP.

Can kill. Given the prior damage from the wards I would even call it likely. But it wouldn't take too much luck to remain standing.

[Sijo]

Belkar got it backwards: the lack of his presence in this arc is one of the few good things it has had so far. His only major bit in it (killing his old "friend") only made me feel sick.

V is a curious character; on the one hand, he finds the good side of the situation (that Draketooth has been warned); on the other he fails to realize (until his Raven pointed it out) that blowing up people is not a good thing. Well played Neutral Alingment there. Though I was hoping he'd be more sensitive now, after all he went through.

In fact, that's another thing that bothers me about this arc- the Order gets back together after being apart a LONG time (and put through some extreme situations, even for this strip) and all the character development seems to be lost. In particular, I find it annoying to see Elan as a moron again rather than a somewhat clueless dashing adventurer. Oh, I'm sure Rich will do something with those plot points (particularly V's) eventually, but in-between that and wandering around in an empty desert, I'm just not terribly excited about the series right now. Can we get to next Gate already?

[Iranon]

I like V's 'if you have a hammer...' attitude. In real life, Operation Plowshare (proposed landscaping with nukes, for artificial lakes and so on.) was hilarious enough. Applying big booms to social problems is just taking the approach to its logical conclusion.

Regarding Elan... being a bard doesn't mean he needs to be good with words, least of all written words. He's a performer who gets by on personal magnetism, we have seen nothing to indicate technical skill even in his chosen medium, improvised music.

Regarding Girard: People question his sense because no matter what his intentions were, his actions seem questionable (in terms of both morality and effectiveness).
It's hard to see how an explosion big enough to kill nonthreatening messengers but not big enough to incapacitate Soon would achieve a practical goal, unless he just wants to make Soon really really angry. This would make some sense if the objective is to have the entire Sapphire Guard come knocking on his door so he can fight them on his terms. For most other consideration, it involves at least one major blunder.

We don't need to know all the details to make some judgment. Meta-example: I don't know whether Rich knows that Roy is occasionally guilty of hypercorrection (e.g. 'you and I' where 'you and me' would be correct). It could be Roy making a grammar mistake or it could be Rich, but either way the speech pattern works for the character.

[Shatteredtower]

Huh. The Order is handling this with a surprising amount of sense for them. Interesting that the ones affected don't assume idiocy on Girard's part, though "that would be wrong."

Concerning V's quote as t-shirt fodder, it's a good idea. Just don't wear it at airports.

[Nilan8888]

In fact, that's another thing that bothers me about this arc- the Order gets back together after being apart a LONG time (and put through some extreme situations, even for this strip) and all the character development seems to be lost. In particular, I find it annoying to see Elan as a moron again rather than a somewhat clueless dashing adventurer.

I'm not exactly certain what about Elan's experiences would have made him any less of a moron. A little less naiive about the average person, perhaps considering what he's been through with Nale and the Therakla business. But he is and has remained an effective dimwit. That's been apparent from him smashing through the windows at the climax of the latter's story arc to his reaction even later on to Durkon's Wind Walk spell.

[DSCrankshaw]

In fact, that's another thing that bothers me about this arc- the Order gets back together after being apart a LONG time (and put through some extreme situations, even for this strip) and all the character development seems to be lost. In particular, I find it annoying to see Elan as a moron again rather than a somewhat clueless dashing adventurer.

I'm not exactly certain what about Elan's experiences would have made him any less of a moron. A little less naiive about the average person, perhaps considering what he's been through with Nale and the Therakla business. But he is and has remained an effective dimwit. That's been apparent from him smashing through the windows at the climax of the latter's story arc to his reaction even later on to Durkon's Wind Walk spell.

The windows I'll give you, but the wind walk spell? That was just child-like enthusiasm. It does not equal idiocy.

[Tobimaro]

Anyone noticed tha Elan is using the stick form OotS "coat of arms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html)"? :P

I was surprised that there was not another IOU on the Cast of Characters page. :smallbiggrin:

Also, there was the sneak attack by Belkar and the banter between V and Haley in the first panel. But I do agree with the others that the last three panels make this comic so much better. V was forced to take back those uses of Explosive Runes that were targeted at Belkar (and Belkar was happy to use that masterwork special ingredient in that plate of crow for V). :smallwink:

[warrl]

(and Belkar was happy to use that masterwork special ingredient in that plate of crow for V). :smallwink:


Blackwing finds your language offensive. :smallbiggrin:

[Joerg]

Sad to see the role Durkon's playing here. Healing the party members and staying silent for the rest of the time. Typical.

I also notice that even while he's healing the others, he isn't fully inside the panel, just shoved to the side. Then, in the last five panels, he isn't visible any more, just as he was away when the illusion was triggered.

I really hope Durkon will get some more important part to play soon. To be there only for healing spells and an occasional Thor's Might doesn't do him justice.

[Asta Kask]

Am I the only one who sees the eyebrows of the characters trying to crawl of their faces in the last three panels?

[Zanaril]

In a future strip...

* Belkar kissing V *
V: Honey?
Belkar: Yes?
V: I have a secret to tell you
Belkar: Just say it, honey. I won't tell anyone.
V: Inkyrius and I...
Belkar: And you what?
V: ... were a gay couple.
Belkar: :O!!!
Belkar: AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

It's not gay if it's an elf.

[Nilan8888]

The windows I'll give you, but the wind walk spell? That was just child-like enthusiasm. It does not equal idiocy.

Then, if you like, how about his obliviousness to V threatening his life after Therakala is dead? Or not being able to deflect Hinjo's simple inquiries as to what happened? There's not too much that happens to Elan between those points and the effective end of the arc and he's still looking like pretty much the buffoon.

Just because comics have been written that had dramatic beats in them concerning Elan that he didn't happen to ruin doesn't mean he's become more intelligent. It just means he's lived through some dramatic things.

[factotum]

Just because comics have been written that had dramatic beats in them concerning Elan that he didn't happen to ruin doesn't mean he's become more intelligent. It just means he's lived through some dramatic things.

To be fair to Elan, he was trying to be better when he was on the fleet. Remember his speech over Therkla's grave, where he bemoaned that he was trying to do what Roy would do, but wasn't smart enough? Basically, now Roy is back, Elan doesn't need to try anymore, and so he isn't.

[Sijo]

To be fair to Elan, he was trying to be better when he was on the fleet. Remember his speech over Therkla's grave, where he bemoaned that he was trying to do what Roy would do, but wasn't smart enough? Basically, now Roy is back, Elan doesn't need to try anymore, and so he isn't.
Now that makes sense. Elan is not as stupid as everyone (even he) thinks he is; he's just not used to thinking by himself. It is logical that he would stop trying so hard now that he has his friends to think for him. But I still find it jarring that he's being written again as if even stuff a child would know is beyond him. At least he's not talking to a hand puppet anymore. :smalltongue: I understand that this is a comedy strip (well, that and a fantasy adventure, though it seems to forget it when least expected) and Elan's role IS to be The Fool; it's just that, for the long-time reader, it feels like a step back on his character growth.

I hope we get to see a scene where he comes up with a logical answer to a problem and everyone stares at him in surprise. THAT would be a good use of his development.

[Trixie]

Really? I thought the lynchpin of the argument against Girard was that he was utterly and entirely wrong about Soon, and I don't think V surviving that explosion disproves that in any way...

I didn't even considered this, as relying on century long hindsight isn't even argument, it's fallacy the size of Saturn (that contradicted virtually every strip with Scribbles in it, but I guess when you dislike Girard you somehow know the members of the Scribble better than they knew themselves and each other). It fell apart even before is was formulated.

To put things in perspective - yes, today we probably would have called reaction to certain Ferdinand's fate... overkill, but trying to use that in the dispute about the era is just... :smallamused:

[Somewhere]

Huh, V's not as frail as I thought; didn't know that Samantha was at least lv 12 to cast lv 6 spells. So a max lightning bolt from her would be 60....dropped V to unconscious...V would have to have had 51-60 HP at that point (strip 168). Assuming 12 con according to the geekery thread and max d4 rolls....that would put V at lvl 10 or 11 at that point? :smallconfused: Average rolls at lv 14 would get to 50.5 HP...

[Shale]

I didn't even considered this, as relying on century long hindsight isn't even argument, it's fallacy the size of Saturn (that contradicted virtually every strip with Scribbles in it, but I guess when you dislike Girard you somehow know the members of the Scribble better than they knew themselves and each other). It fell apart even before is was formulated.



A century? Soon was dead of old age within a few years of the Scribble's split. Once that happened the question was pretty much settled. Plus it's not just "Soon didn't go to the Gate, therefore Girard was crazy," it's "Soon took the oath so seriously that he made it Rule 1 for an entire order of paladins, and possibly went too far in the other direction, so anybody who thought he was likely to break it apparently didn't know him that well."

[dsavereide]

Am I the only one that thinks when V says "...And that would be wrong" it is not in response to Belkar, but to whatever suggestion Blackwing whispered?

[Boogastreehouse]

Am I the only one that thinks when V says "...And that would be wrong" it is not in response to Belkar, but to whatever suggestion Blackwing whispered?

That was sort of the joke, yeah...



Edit to further explain: Blackwing told V to say that blowing things up to solve problems would be wrong, because it didn't occur to V to say it. Vaarsuvius thinks it's fine to blow people up, and Blackwing reminds her/him that the rest of the party wouldn't approve of this attitude. Belkar is smiling because he has been doing a lot of lying about his attitude lately, too.

[factotum]

A century? Soon was dead of old age within a few years of the Scribble's split. Once that happened the question was pretty much settled. Plus it's not just "Soon didn't go to the Gate, therefore Girard was crazy," it's "Soon took the oath so seriously that he made it Rule 1 for an entire order of paladins, and possibly went too far in the other direction, so anybody who thought he was likely to break it apparently didn't know him that well."

QFT. There is no possible interpretation of the events we've seen in the comic that implies that Girard was right in his judgement of Soon, because of the point made here: he took the oath of non-interference so seriously that Shojo had to work behind the backs of the paladins he nominally led in order to investigate Girard's Gate. If anything, those people who are saying otherwise appear to have an irrational dislike of Soon, not the other way round!

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I hope we get to see a scene where he comes up with a logical answer to a problem and everyone stares at him in surprise. THAT would be a good use of his development.

Better still, a scene where he comes up with a logical answer to a problem and no one stares at him in surprise. Granted, the Giant would have to build to up to such a scene, but it would reinforce Elan's improving competence nicely, don't you think?

[Magugag]

I think you all are giving Elan a bit too much credit when it comes to brainpower. Just because he was involved in a few dramatic scenes in the comic doesn't mean he's becoming more intelligent or less childish. It means that he was involved in a few dramatic scenes. I don't see him becoming much more of a thinking character, despite taking a few levels in a more competent class.

[Badgercloak]

That was a great comic. Thank you.

[Sewblon]

Every time I look at Belkar's face in the last panel, I wonder if he is thinking something like "I am gonna ride Vaarsuvius like a little (five-letter-word that means female dog.)" What would the kids be like?

[Drogorn]

Every time I look at Belkar's face in the last panel, I wonder if he is thinking something like "I am gonna ride Vaarsuvius like a little (four-letter-word that means female dog.)" What would the kids be like?

There aren't any four-letter words in the English language that mean female dog.

[Dr Happypills]

I assumed that Elan was becoming more competent but not necessarily more intelligent.

[Boogastreehouse]

A century? Soon was dead of old age within a few years of the Scribble's split. Once that happened the question was pretty much settled. Plus it's not just "Soon didn't go to the Gate, therefore Girard was crazy," it's "Soon took the oath so seriously that he made it Rule 1 for an entire order of paladins, and possibly went too far in the other direction, so anybody who thought he was likely to break it apparently didn't know him that well."


QFT. There is no possible interpretation of the events we've seen in the comic that implies that Girard was right in his judgement of Soon, because of the point made here: he took the oath of non-interference so seriously that Shojo had to work behind the backs of the paladins he nominally led in order to investigate Girard's Gate. If anything, those people who are saying otherwise appear to have an irrational dislike of Soon, not the other way round!



What I'm waiting for is more information on the falling out of the Order of the Scribble. It's quite possible that Soon had at one time been guilty of the sort of ends-justify-the-means actions which Girard now suspects him of. Perhaps after the falling out, or Kraagor's death, Soon made a vow not to walk down that path again, and that's why he takes the Oath of the Sapphire Guard so seriously. I recall Soon talking to Miko about redemption; maybe at some point Soon had some atoning of his own to do. Soon had redeemed himself, but Girard still never trusted him again.

[Shatteredtower]

If anything, those people who are saying otherwise appear to have an irrational dislike of Soon, not the other way round!

Nonsense. Acknowledging the merit of a contingency put in place in case the group's ruthless authoritarion (or a successor) moved against the gate says nothing of how Soon is viewed by the reader.

Whether it was triggered on Soon's order is irrelevant.

[Shale]

Nonsense. Acknowledging the merit of a contingency put in place in case the group's ruthless authoritarion (or a successor) moved against the gate says nothing of how Soon is viewed by the reader.

Whether it was triggered on Soon's order is irrelevant.

The fact that you're calling Soon a "ruthless authoritarian" kind of indicates a certain opinion of the character...

[Allan Surgite]

Hell, even for authors of the written word, I can't see why one has to hold them to higher standards of consistent spelling than Shakespear :P
I can't tell if you're mocking or ignoring the fact that Shakespeare actually couldn't spell his own name... or maybe he had bad enough writing that he write "Shakespeare" as "Shagspeer".

Never mind. Vaarsuvius certainly has some... memorable quotes in this strip, as well as more-or-less typical Elan shenanigans. I can't really say what's going to happen next; I presume the Order are going to find another town to stay in until you get more info on the Gate.

[Kish]

Nonsense. Acknowledging the merit of a contingency put in place in case the group's ruthless authoritarion (or a successor) moved against the gate says nothing of how Soon is viewed by the reader.

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy of begging the question?

I'm not entirely certain whether that's the specific fallacy represented in claiming your view on Girard's actions has nothing to do with your opinion of Soon while stating a reason for endorsing Girard's actions which hinges on Soon being a "ruthless authoritarion," or there's another fallacy that would fit better.


Whether it was triggered on Soon's order is irrelevant.
Right? Wrong? Who cares? What matters is he hated Soon and so he's brilliant and cool whether his judgments had anything to do with reality or not!

[Zelthax]

I simply adore V's quote in the first panel. Just sayin'.