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View Full Version : Wacky Point Buy Idea



Crow
2009-12-28, 01:41 PM
Has anyone toyed with setting ability score point-buy by class?

As in something like;

Tier 1-2 classes (15 point buy)
Tier 3-4 classes (25 point buy)
Tier 5-6 classes (32 point buy)

Obviously, the balance issues in 3.5 (without a competent DM) go much deeper than this. But maybe it could make for a good start?

Hat-Trick
2009-12-28, 01:44 PM
It's been thought of, yes.

Edge of Dreams
2009-12-28, 02:17 PM
The problem with that system is that you're rewarding/penalizing players for the *potential* power of the class they choose. Should an evocation specialist wizard with no PrC's who does nothing but cast Rays and Fireballs be forced to have such low stats? Should you really make it just that tiny bit easier for someone to build an ubercharger fighter? Just because the optimizers put those classes in tiers doesn't mean they're actually going to be played that way.

valadil
2009-12-28, 02:30 PM
The problem with that system is that you're rewarding/penalizing players for the *potential* power of the class they choose. Should an evocation specialist wizard with no PrC's who does nothing but cast Rays and Fireballs be forced to have such low stats? Should you really make it just that tiny bit easier for someone to build an ubercharger fighter? Just because the optimizers put those classes in tiers doesn't mean they're actually going to be played that way.

Assuming you're involving tiers at all implies some level of expertise on the parts of the players. I don't think a fireball wizard PC would even be aware of how classes are judged and ranked. This doesn't seem like a good solution for every group out there, but a group of experienced powergamers would probably find it interesting.

The point values would probably need some tweaking. I suppose tier 1-2 is at 15 to prevent anyone from starting with an 18 casting stat? Why are tiers broken into groups of two? 1-2 are primarily casters, so blocking their casting stat makes sense. But if 5-6 both get the same point buy, what's the motivation for playing a 6 instead of a 5? Maybe 6 should get 2-4 more build points?

Mongoose87
2009-12-28, 02:32 PM
I could see this sort of thing leading to people taking CW Samurai at level 1 in order to get good stats for their CW Samurai 1/Wizard and Prestige Classes 19.

Yrcrazypa
2009-12-28, 02:47 PM
Player: I'm going to play a Samurai.
DM: Ok, take the bigger point buy benefit then.
*Adventure, ho! Players level up*
Player: And for second level I take a level of wiza-
DM: No.

That solves that problem, doesn't it?

Starscream
2009-12-28, 02:47 PM
I could see this sort of thing leading to people taking CW Samurai at level 1 in order to get good stats for their CW Samurai 1/Wizard and Prestige Classes 19.

Yeah, the Tier system specifies this as a problem. You can't let people multiclass between different tiers or you have severe balance issues.

The other main solution is to allow Gestalt characters depending on their tier. Tier 1 & 2 characters get no gestalt, tier 3 & 4 ones can gestalt with an NPC class (which can basically be used to offset one weakness, such as a low BAB or skill points). And a tier 5 or 6 character can gestalt with another tier 5 or 6 class.

This allows multiclassing, just keep track of which levels you get to gestalt and which ones you don't.

Mongoose87
2009-12-28, 02:52 PM
Player: I'm going to play a Samurai.
DM: Ok, take the bigger point buy benefit then.
*Adventure, ho! Players level up*
Player: And for second level I take a level of wiza-
DM: No.

That solves that problem, doesn't it?

Strictly speaking, yes. Generally speaking, no one wants to play with a DM who suddenly decides a pile of PHB classes are unavailable without telling you.


Yeah, the Tier system specifies this as a problem. You can't let people multiclass between different tiers or you have severe balance issues.

The other main solution is to allow Gestalt characters depending on their tier. Tier 1 & 2 characters get no gestalt, tier 3 & 4 ones can gestalt with an NPC class (which can basically be used to offset one weakness, such as a low BAB or skill points). And a tier 5 or 6 character can gestalt with another tier 5 or 6 class.

This allows multiclassing, just keep track of which levels you get to gestalt and which ones you don't.

I'm a fan of this solution.

Tavar
2009-12-28, 02:54 PM
I don't think changing point buy's really addresses the problems: lower tiers are still less versatile, higher tiers still more. Personally, the gestalt option seems like it would address the problem more directly.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-28, 03:05 PM
I could see this sort of thing leading to people taking CW Samurai at level 1 in order to get good stats for their CW Samurai 1/Wizard and Prestige Classes 19.

I solved it by basing the PB on the classes they take in a 20 level build, not at 1st level.

Artanis
2009-12-28, 03:46 PM
The tier system already accounts for multiclassing and differing levels of optimization.

For multiclassing, it basically says, "unless they do something stupid, the character's tier is that of the highest-tiered class."

For optimization, it basically says to change a character's tier if they do something other than optimal. Like to treat a nothing-but-fireballs blaster Wizard as tier 3 or so.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-28, 03:58 PM
Hmmmm... how would you combine this with the idea that higher LA characters give fewer points for attributes?

taltamir
2009-12-28, 04:06 PM
15 point buy wizard:
int: 17
con: 10
everything else: 8

still the most powerful class if abused... and a horrible no fun penalty to the class if NOT abused...
the problem is that point buy point are just not worth enough to balance out any problems with the class...

The value of wizards and other tier 1 declines rapidly if you don't allow horrid abusing..
Ban: pun pun, solar chain gating, fabricate, creation (minor/major), gate, polymorph, celerity, and any type of metamagic reduces (rods, feats, DMM, whatever).

You will find your full casters to be significantly more balanced then.

Another thing is... tiers =! power. Tier is not about combat power. it is about versatility and ability to "do things"...
A fighter is such a low tier because it is limited to doing very very little.
The specific situations used in the tier ratings are to slay something powerful, to do something diplomatically, or to aid in a battle.

A wizard can teleport, buff troops, use spells like charm for "diplomacy", use spells like wall and move earth to change the terrain and help a battle, etc.. A fight hits things with a sword until they die...
A well built fighter can easily beat the living daylight out of a badly build wizard. But in a lot of "situations" he is just gonna say "there is nothing I can do, leave me out of this"... which is actually FINE for some people who don't CARE for anything BUT killing things really well.

Also, if you build a wizard wrong? buy some spell scrolls of the right spells, scribe them, you are now an uber wizard.
Build a fighter wrong? by the raw he is forever borked. although your DM might let you "retrain"

Crow
2009-12-28, 04:39 PM
I didn't say it was a good idea, just curious if anybody had tried it. LOL :smallsmile: