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View Full Version : Interesting idea for a warshaper (page 89 Complete Warrior, D&D 3.5)



realbombchu
2009-12-28, 03:00 PM
I'm no good at strategy, so I have to ask about this idea I had last night as I was looking over my copy of Complete Warrior. You know the class warshaper? I've always ignored it because I thought it was pointless to give up spellcasting for those rewards, but it says any creature with a +4 base atk bonus and the shapechanger subtype also qualifies. I'm an Eberron fan, so my mind immediately went to the changeling. You might think I would've thought of shifters first, but they can't change at will.

So, I was thinking, would that work? I mean, is it legal, as the rules are written? A changeling fighter could enter the class at level 4, and at two levels in the prestige class, gain immunity to stunning and critical hits (and sneak attack, too, I guess), natural weapons whenever it needs them, regardless of whether the chosen form has any, and a +4 untyped bonus to both Strength and Constitution, all whenever it isn't in it's normal changeling form (which with bonuses like that would be almost always, in my case). If your willing to give up a couple of feats you could follow the class until you get fast healing 2, also, at level 4.

I was even thinking about playing a modified fighter as described on page 110 of the player's handbook, where you trade in your weapon and armor proficiencies for those of a rogue, and gain an additional 2 skill points per level with bluff and sense motive as class skills. It seems to fit the changeling idea really well.

I'm sure someone has thought of this before, so any feedback on the idea (or even why it doesn't work) would be great, thanks!

Sliver
2009-12-28, 03:09 PM
Why not Warblade instead of Fighter? :smalltongue:

Tavar
2009-12-28, 03:13 PM
Don't forget the fact that you get reach and natural weapons. I'm not sure if it works, but if Changlings have the shapechanger subtype then it does by RAW. Seems like an interesting build.

realbombchu
2009-12-28, 03:18 PM
I'm ashamed to say, I am behind the times. When Tome of Battle came out, I didn't have much money and decided that the book might not be worth it. I know I was wrong, but that doesn't change that I still don't have it, so I don't know much of anything about it except that it is amazing. I'm trying to remedy my ignorance by ordering the book from my book store, but they haven't called me about it yet, so for a while, I'm still in the dark.

So, until that's fixed, can I politely request that we consider the value of a changeling as a warshaper? I don't want to spoil anyone's fun, but I won't know what you're talking about otherwise.

Other than the total lack of warblade, how is my idea?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-28, 03:18 PM
Changelings do indeed have the shapechanger subtype, and would only require a +4 BAB to qualify. However, keep the following in mind, found just before the bold Weapon and Armor Proficiency entry:
"All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own." Emphasis added.

Changelings can change their appearance, but not their actual form. Therefore, none of the class features would even function for such a character.

Mongoose87
2009-12-28, 03:20 PM
So, would a shifter work better then?

realbombchu
2009-12-28, 03:24 PM
Thanks Tavar. I checked, and changelings are indeed the humanoid (shapechanger) type. So I guess it works.

Seems like it would be pretty useful in situations where weapons are not allowed, like a dinner party. But I would need a lot of oils of greater magic fang or oils of bless weapon (I think it would still work). Eventually, I would really need to get an amulet of mighty fists and a glamoured mithral shirt. I suppose in the right situation, you could sneak into someone's house, kill them with bite attacks, and blame their dog. I'll have to remember that idea.

realbombchu
2009-12-28, 03:29 PM
I thought disguises counted as other forms, since it is some kind of minor physical change on the changelings part, not an illusion, like the disguise self spell. I always thought of it as them flexing a muscle we don't have, like loosely clenching your fist. You can do it for a long time whenever you want, but eventually, you'll want to let go.

Since the Eberron Campaign Setting says it is a physical change, I would be tempted to count it as a new form. I don't know for sure though.

Shifters would technically work because they are shapechangers, too. But unless you take a whole load of shifter feats, they can't shift often, and I would say theirs is even less of a form change than a changelings. That's just my thoughts, though.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-28, 03:29 PM
Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
super natural ability to alter their appearance as
though using a disguise self spell that affects their
bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not
an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of
a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture,
and size, within the limits described for the spell.

It's kind of ambiguous to me. On the one hand, it references the spell disguise self and refers to it as a mere change of appearance , and on the other, it describes the process as a physical alteration....a shape change, which should still make it qualify for a warshaper's abilities. Consult your DM. (and don't be surprised if the dm decides to put some hard and fast limits on the number of natural weapons allowed)

As a DM, I'd allow it. In fact, I'm currently allowing this exact situation. One of the players is in real need of a boost and this will turn her from party liability into a whirlwind of death. she's a vampire 8/rogue 4 using Libris Mortis Monster levels. I'm really trying to sell her on Warshaper.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-28, 03:31 PM
Changelings can change their appearance, but not their actual form.

:smallconfused:

What is "form", if not appearance?

Bibliomancer
2009-12-28, 03:40 PM
Technically, form is represented by ability scores (and additional things like natural weapons and armor). Note that all the polymorph spells substitute the ability scores of the morphed form for that of the caster. Note, also, that a changeling's strength does not increase when imitating an orc. The alteration i s skin-deep, so to speak.

I'd be inclined, as DM, to not permit this, given the above. Yes, you can qualify for the class, but you don't gain any benefits until the wizard casts polymorph on you.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-28, 03:46 PM
I'm ashamed to say, I am behind the times. When Tome of Battle came out, I didn't have much money and decided that the book might not be worth it. I know I was wrong, but that doesn't change that I still don't have it, so I don't know much of anything about it except that it is amazing. I'm trying to remedy my ignorance by ordering the book from my book store, but they haven't called me about it yet, so for a while, I'm still in the dark.
Wizards, it turns out, officially released an apology for the Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), complete with all the maneuvers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). That is enough to run a Warblade on, I'm fairly sure, so you don't even need Tome of Battle to never touch a Fighter again.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-28, 03:46 PM
Technically, form is represented by ability scores (and additional things like natural weapons and armor). Note that all the polymorph spells substitute the ability scores of the morphed form for that of the caster. Note, also, that a changeling's strength does not increase when imitating an orc. The alteration i s skin-deep, so to speak.

I'd be inclined, as DM, to not permit this, given the above. Yes, you can qualify for the class, but you don't gain any benefits until the wizard casts polymorph on you.

By this logic, a doppleganger (since a doppleganger's shapechange power still relies on its original ability scores) would gain no benefit from the class. something that I'm sure was *not* intended by the designers, since the Change Shape ability is used as a specific grounds for qualifying for warshaper.

yes, it's a loophole to let a changeling qualify. a valid loophole, mind you, and one that doesn't so much as scratch the surface of breaking the game.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-28, 07:03 PM
Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) is probably the weakest effect in the game that can enable the Warshaper's class features. Alter Self doesn't change your ability scores, but you gain the physical characteristics of your form such as natural armor, natural weapons, mundane movement modes such as climb/swim/burrow and flight via wings, racial skill bonuses and feats, etc. You are in the form of another creature when using this spell.

A Doppleganger's Change Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape) ability is very similar, it is actually in the form of another creature.

Changelings mimic Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm), which even with their improved version cannot grant the physical characteristics of whatever they're mimicking. They can appear to have fins but do not gain a swim speed, they can appear to have claws but do not gain natural weapon attacks, appear to have scales but not gain a natural armor bonus, etc. They are not in the form of another creature, they are in a version of their own form that appears as though they were another creature. A Changeling with the Race of Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) variant has a swim speed, and retains that swim speed during Minor Change Shape even if it no longer appears to be an able swimmer. A Feral Changeling would not lose his claw or bite attacks or his natural armor bonus when using Minor Change Shape even if he no longer appears to have claws or big teeth or a thick hide. He still retains the characteristics of his normal form when using that ability and is thus still in his normal form despite appearing otherwise.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-28, 10:15 PM
Therein lies the biggest problem.

We're all playing with "probably/should be/maybe"

there is no clear cut answer to the question(at least that I've heard.)



here's what we have:

-A changeling with a +4 BAB qualifies for the prestige class, without a shadow of a doubt. Other creatures that qualify can use their applicable abilities as a base for the warshaper. So it stands to reason that the one trait that defines them as having the shapeshifter subtype (minor shapeshift) would work with the warshaper's abilities.

-It becomes doubtful if Minor Shapechange is an applicable base for the warshaper's abilities. A strict reading doesn't work well, because of the muddled wording of Minor S. In the spirit of the ability, it should work. In the spirit of class balance? maybe it shouldn't.

-There is no clear distinction in the overall rules or in the specific reading of the prestige class as to what constitutes an appropriate foundation for a warshaper's abilities. Any bar set is, at heart, nothing more than guesswork.

-Ultimately, it will be up the DM to decide. DMs from both sides of the fence have given their reasoning for and against. Take those arguments for exactly what they are: Educated guesses.

Angry Bob
2009-12-29, 08:02 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136314). If your DM allows it to work in the first place, this thread has a little advice.

Dimers
2009-12-29, 10:10 PM
The PrC is a very nice one for melee builds, yes. As others have noted, the changeling's racial ability is worded ambiguously, so you'll have to ask your DM whether s/he'd allow it. Me, I prefer to aim for natural lycanthropes ... because, hey, why not add a couple dozen stat points, multiple attacks per round and DR when designing a melee character? :smallbiggrin: