If Girard is alive...

[JonestheSpy]

I posted something to this effect in one of the Girard speculation threads, but it got buried pretty quickly and the latest strip makes seem relevant, so here 'tis.

Roy seems to be operating under the assumption that Girard is still around - they're kind of screwed otherwise. But if he is, then Girard should have been alerted by the destruction of the other three gates - that was the only thread of contact gaurunteed between the Scribbles, unless everyone was actually going behind Soon's back.

So Girard is first notified about the destruction of Lirian's gate, then Dorukon's, then Soon's not long after. And unless he's living at the bottom of a well, he's probably heard about the destruction of Azure City as well. Anyone with half a brain cell would be able to see the pattern there, and realize that the odds are someone very dangerous would be coming for his gate before too long.

Given all that, my theory is that Girard's message is not an old one aimed at Soon, but a very recent one specifically designed to misdirect enemies who've recently come from Azure City. The same key words could quite likley be used by the ones who defeated the Sapphire Guard, after all. And Girard's anger at Soon could be quite real - the best lies are those that incoporate truth, and it certainly sounds convincing. Likewise the trap could be part signal to Girard that someone's arrived, and partly to make the whole thing more convincing even if it wasn't actually strong enough to kill an really powerful foe.

[TheSummoner]

Thats actually a really good theory... Only time will tell I suppose...

[Conuly]

So he sends whatever Big Bad it is towards his friend Serini instead? Gee, that's nice.

[Noble Savant]

I think you're probably wrong in this case, not only because the wording of the illusion seemed to indicate not, (Remember the wager? "If it's been less then 10 weeks..."), but because Girard would be a great deal older if he was still alive, as evidenced by Dorukan.

[Menas]

I posted something to this effect in one of the Girard speculation threads, but it got buried pretty quickly and the latest strip makes seem relevant, so here 'tis.

Roy seems to be operating under the assumption that Girard is still around - they're kind of screwed otherwise. But if he is, then Girard should have been alerted by the destruction of the other three gates - that was the only thread of contact gaurunteed between the Scribbles, unless everyone was actually going behind Soon's back.

So Girard is first notified about the destruction of Lirian's gate, then Dorukon's, then Soon's not long after. And unless he's living at the bottom of a well, he's probably heard about the destruction of Azure City as well. Anyone with half a brain cell would be able to see the pattern there, and realize that the odds are someone very dangerous would be coming for his gate before too long.

Given all that, my theory is that Girard's message is not an old one aimed at Soon, but a very recent one specifically designed to misdirect enemies who've recently come from Azure City. The same key words could quite likley be used by the ones who defeated the Sapphire Guard, after all. And Girard's anger at Soon could be quite real - the best lies are those that incoporate truth, and it certainly sounds convincing. Likewise the trap could be part signal to Girard that someone's arrived, and partly to make the whole thing more convincing even if it wasn't actually strong enough to kill an really powerful foe.

I was thinking something along the same lines right before I read this lol. That would make Girard pretty freaking old though. If he's not part dragon I wouldn't know how to explain that kind of a lifespan.

[Menas]

I think you're probably wrong in this case, not only because the wording of the illusion seemed to indicate not, (Remember the wager? "If it's been less then 10 weeks..."), but because Girard would be a great deal older if he was still alive, as evidenced by Dorukan.

That would all be explained if it was the intention of the illusion to portray these things as such.

If Girard wanted to make it look like like he's cast the illusion right after the Scribble broke up he'd use that kind of wording intentionally along with portraying himself as the same age he'd been when the Scribble broke up.

[SoC175]

I wouldn't know how to explain that kind of a lifespan. Arcane spellcaster, 'nuff said. Really these people love to live for centuries (and after that they're only starting with lichdom)

[Pyron]

Arcane spellcaster, 'nuff said.

Illusionist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm) even.

[Optimystik]

So he sends whatever Big Bad it is towards his friend Serini instead? Gee, that's nice.

It amazes me how many people overlook that little detail.

[JonestheSpy]

It amazes me how many people overlook that little detail.

It would divert attention away from a gate the enemy may well be right on top of, to look for someone whom they haven't the slightest idea how to find, and who Girard can probably forewarn and maybe even join forces with, or perhaps is already dead herself.

I suspect that if my theory is in any way accurate, Girard doesn't know about Serini's diary and the clues therein. On the other hand, he must realize that someone has been locating the gates by some means or other.

[TriForce]

actually, last post made me convinced girard is dead.... i mean, he would have had plenty of warnings now, and also, that message ( even if it wouldnt last long) would help girard a lot if he saw it... thats just too easy... a prepared spellcaster is something to fear, and i think the order doesnt have that luck :)

[Optimystik]

It would divert attention away from a gate the enemy may well be right on top of, to look for someone whom they haven't the slightest idea how to find, and who Girard can probably forewarn and maybe even join forces with, or perhaps is already dead herself.

That's just it. If they didn't have "the slightest idea how to find her," her name was the LAST thing he should have been throwing around.

She's epic level. Knowing her name is more than enough to start digging. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm)


I suspect that if my theory is in any way accurate, Girard doesn't know about Serini's diary and the clues therein. On the other hand, he must realize that someone has been locating the gates by some means or other.

None of that excuses making a searcher's job easier.

[Morquard]

Girard might know that Serini is dead. There's been the speculation that Xykon killed her to get the diary in the first place

So if she's dead, nothing is lost by sending the enemy to her, if it makes the lie more convincing, right?

Also possible that Serini and Girard were lovers and had a really really bad breakup.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

i mean, he would have had plenty of warnings now, and also, that message ( even if it wouldnt last long) would help girard a lot if he saw it...
Not really. The message doesn’t indicate any of Xykon’s specific abilities or preferred tactics. It doesn’t even list a guess his level. No way for Girard to know if the lich sorcerer is more epic than than he is. Knowing these things can be kind of important.

SoD
Xykon laid seige to Durokan’s castle for months. As a result, Dorukan had far more info on Xykon than any note the Order leaves could ever give. When Durokan finally confronted Xykon, he was almost as prepared as he could possibly be. Xykon still won.


Girard might know that Serini is dead. There's been the speculation that Xykon killed her to get the diary in the first place

So if she's dead, nothing is lost by sending the enemy to her, if it makes the lie more convincing, right?
How about the fact that they’re supposed to be protecting Gates, not each other? No matter what Serini’s status is, let’s try not sending the Gate-destroying maniac to more Gates.

[snikrept]

Given that Girard has been built up as this master of deception archetype, we certainly can't rule out something of this sort. I imagine the best policy would be double and triple guessing anything that comes out of Girard's mouth.

Bonus points if Serini did not, in fact, have any coordinates. She's not even guarding a gate! Kraagor's is just an autonomous dungeon she built for him - the strip mentions that she was not the type for settling down.

[Felixaar]

OP: Good theory, won't happen. I mean this is generally plausible, but not the way the story is going.

[Kome]

There's a good chance Girard is alive. Remember, the whole Scribble stuff was 66 years ago (maybe 67, depending on how much time has gone by since the OOTS's trial and the present time). Dorukan was alive when Xykon took over his dungeon. Old, but alive. And there are good odds that Dorukan and Girard were the youngest members of the Scribble considering the various races' lifespans.

Soon died shortly after transferring command of the SG over to Shojo's dad, and Shojo had been ruling it for 47 years. Makes me think Soon was very old when he adventured. (also makes me wonder what happened to Shojo's dad that he was only in command for at most 19 years - and that's assuming the Scribble group sealed the rifts in less than a year)

I'm willing to bet Girard is the only member of the Scribble still alive.

Kraagor died in the rift. Soon died a few years later (at most) presumably from old age. Liarin died 18-19 years ago according to the timeline presented in SoD. Dorukan died 6 months before the strip started, also according to SoD. And, as per the popular speculation, Serini is probably dead. I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where Xykon got her diary and she still lives. She was still adventuring, so she could have died some other way... but Xykon is still the best bet.

He may be very very old, but I'm willing to bet he's still alive. So Roy and the OOTS acting like Girard is still alive is not only the only thing they can bank on if they're to do anything next, but it's also a pretty safe bet given the time line of events.

Of course, considering what's happened to the rest of the Scribble characters, even if Girard is still alive I suspect he won't be for long.

[Optimystik]

Unless Girard isn't quite human, I find it hard to believe he would be alive this long. Certainly the odds are more in favor of Serini, who has the lifespan to pull off such a feat, encounter with Xykon or not.

I would think an epic-level rogue can outstealth a lich, especially one as easily sidetracked as Xykon. The fact that he has her diary doesn't necessarily mean he killed her to get it.

On another note, If Girard IS somehow not-quite-human, I'm willing to bet he's part-dragon... which would then cause the "Girard is related to Haley" and "Haley is part-dragon" theories to dovetail nicely. :smalltongue:

[ZeroNumerous]

Unless Girard isn't quite human, I find it hard to believe he would be alive this long. Certainly the odds are more in favor of Serini, who has the lifespan to pull off such a feat, encounter with Xykon or not.

Extended Life Span (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan) would give Girard 110 years to live. 130 if he takes it twice. Girard is also an epic arcane spellcaster, so it's entirely plausible to believe he's still alive.

[JonahFalcon]

If Girard is still alive, will we pick our sons, pick our daughters, too, from the bottom of a long glass tube?!

[Zevox]

Unless Girard isn't quite human, I find it hard to believe he would be alive this long.
You find it hard to believe that an epic-level spellcaster could survive longer than his average natural lifespan? Really?

Personally, I'd be more surprised if he was dead.

Zevox

[JonahFalcon]

You find it hard to believe that an epic-level spellcaster could survive longer than his average natural lifespan? Really?

Personally, I'd be more surprised if he was dead.

Zevox

Plus, dramatically, Girard needs a good verbal beatdown.

[Optimystik]

You find it hard to believe that an epic-level spellcaster could survive longer than his average natural lifespan? Really?

Yes, really. Just being an epic caster does not allow you to comb the various sourcebooks for immortality munchkinry. Even Xykon felt himself knocking at death's door before Redcloak's drastic idea.

I mean, there's always the chance of him being secretly "Chosen of Loki" or somesuch, but I just don't see it. Draconic lineage, however, I do see.


Plus, dramatically, Girard needs a good verbal beatdown.

This I agree with totally.

[TheSummoner]

Dorukan was alive until relatively recently... sure, the man was aged, but theres nothing saying Girard isn't alive but really old as well...

Yeah yeah, the message shows him looking not ancient... Hes an illusionist. If he wanted to appear younger to throw off his enemies, I don't think it would be a problem for him, especially in a message like that...

I don't really think this WILL happen, but its a pretty solid theory nonetheless.

[Fragenstein]

If Girard is still alive, will we pick our sons, pick our daughters, too, from the bottom of a long glass tube?!

If Girard is coming, he should make it by then. Maybe he'll look around and say; "Now it's time for Soon to pay"?

[JonahFalcon]

If Girard is coming, he should make it by then. Maybe he'll look around and say; "Now it's time for Soon to pay"?

Maybe Girard is laughing that even while you're dying, he's still alive, and that when you're dead, he's still alive. Still alive.

[Zevox]

Yes, really. Just being an epic caster does not allow you to comb the various sourcebooks for immortality munchkinry. Even Xykon felt himself knocking at death's door before Redcloak's drastic idea.
Sourcebooks are unnecessary - just invent a spell or magic item wholesale. Hell, epic magic even allows you to do that without it really being "homebrew." And with gate guarding duties, Girard sure has a reason to want to extend his lifespan.

Zevox

[Asta Kask]

Yes, really. Just being an epic caster does not allow you to comb the various sourcebooks for immortality munchkinry. Even Xykon felt himself knocking at death's door before Redcloak's drastic idea.

IIRC, there's an epic feat that makes you live ten times longer.

[Optimystik]

Sourcebooks are unnecessary - just invent a spell or magic item wholesale. Hell, epic magic even allows you to do that without it really being "homebrew." And with gate guarding duties, Girard sure has a reason to want to extend his lifespan.

Zevox

Inventing a spell or magic item to do it still requires the right knowledge; knowledge that we can't be sure Girard possesses. If he was a necromancer, sure, but cheating death isn't part of the typical Illusionist's repertoire (unless you watch The Prestige anyway.)

I don't doubt that if he knew how he would definitely go about it, but how do we know that he did?

Also, even Soon didn't bother prolonging his life to defend his gate. What makes you think Girard would?

[Zevox]

Inventing a spell or magic item to do it still requires the right knowledge; knowledge that we can't be sure Girard possesses. If he was a necromancer, sure, but cheating death isn't part of the typical Illusionist's repertoire (unless you watch The Prestige anyway.)

I don't doubt that if he knew how he would definitely go about it, but how do we know that he did?

Also, even Soon didn't bother prolonging his life to defend his gate. What makes you think Girard would?
Soon was a Paladin, not an epic spellcaster (yes, Paladins get spells, but they're a secondary class feature at best). And he discovered a way to continue guarding his gate without prolonging his life - he didn't need to.

Epic spellcasters, though, do have a tendency to find ways to prolong their lives. Note that Dorukon was alive and apparently in pretty good shape just 6 months before the comic started, for instance. As for whether Girard knew how to, that's what research and divination magic is for - and really, when his job is guarding something that almost no one knows exists, what else is going to be spending his time doing once he has his defenses set up?

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Epic spellcasters, though, do have a tendency to find ways to prolong their lives. Note that Dorukon was alive and apparently in pretty good shape just 6 months before the comic started, for instance.

"A tendency" is not conclusive evidence that he has found such a way.

Dorukan was very clearly at the high-end of venerable, and he's explicitly a Wizard. There is no evidence that Girard is even capable of that kind of research, and also no evidence that Dorukan did anything more than luck out in terms of his lifespan. When he joins the Scribble, Serini calls him the "new kid" implying that he is the youngest person there.


As for whether Girard knew how to, that's what research and divination magic is for - and really, when his job is guarding something that almost no one knows exists, what else is going to be spending his time doing once he has his defenses set up?

Gambling? Traveling the planes? Wasting away from illness? The point is, we don't know.

If he has prolonged his life this long, I'll be very surprised if it is solely due to magical ability.

[Zevox]

"A tendency" is not conclusive evidence that he has found such a way.
No, it isn't. It's simply a reason why I don't think it at all unlikely for Girard to still be alive even if he's fully human.


Dorukan was very clearly at the high-end of venerable
Based on what, the long white beard? He wouldn't need to be that old for that. Which isn't to say he wasn't - logically, he had to be into venerable by then - but he certainly doesn't show the signs of being extremely old and nearing the end of his life span. Hell, he didn't even look as bad as Shojo - no wrinkles or anything of the sort to be seen.


When he joins the Scribble, Serini calls him the "new kid" implying that he is the youngest person there.
Er, no, calling him the "new kid" simply implies he was the last to join the group.


If he has prolonged his life this long, I'll be very surprised if it is solely due to magical ability.
I, on the other hand, wouldn't be, but would be very surprised if the ridiculous idea that his last name containing the word "drake" means he has draconic heritage is any more accurate than the guess that V's appearance back before the Soul Splice meant she had become a Lich.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

No, it isn't. It's simply a reason why I don't think it at all unlikely for Girard to still be alive even if he's fully human.

It's a possibility, but that's all it is. The default assumption is that humans die.


Based on what, the long white beard? He wouldn't need to be that old for that. Which isn't to say he wasn't - logically, he had to be into venerable by then - but he certainly doesn't show the signs of being extremely old and nearing the end of his life span. Hell, he didn't even look as bad as Shojo - no wrinkles or anything of the sort to be seen.

You don't need to be old to have a long white beard? What? :smallconfused:


Er, no, calling him the "new kid" simply implies he was the last to join the group.

Even assuming you're right, he still looked younger than Girard in the diary.


I, on the other hand, wouldn't be, but would be very surprised if the ridiculous idea that his last name containing the word "drake" means he has draconic heritage is any more accurate than the guess that V's appearance back before the Soul Splice meant she had become a Lich.

Zevox

Why are you assuming I'm basing it on his name?

[Asta Kask]

You don't need to be old to have a long white beard? What? :smallconfused:

He could be dyeing it, for that cool, aldermanic look.

[Zevox]

It's a possibility, but that's all it is. The default assumption is that humans die.
A default assumption which is readily called into question when dealing with high, and especially epic, level spellcasters, at least from where I'm sitting.


You don't need to be old to have a long white beard? What? :smallconfused:
Of course you do - I said "you don't need to be that old," not "you don't need to be old." Meaning you don't need to be at the high end of venerable age to have a long white beard.


Even assuming you're right, he still looked younger than Girard in the diary.
I don't see what gives you that impression - it seems to me that determining the age of stick figures without clear give-aways like short height for kids or gray/white hair and wrinkles for the elderly is an impossible task.


Why are you assuming I'm basing it on his name?
Because there's absolutely nothing else which would give anyone the impression that he has draconic lineage in his past. The only other thing that was fueling that bit of speculation was what some people thought was a dragon tattoo, and it has turned out to be nothing more than a scar or series of scars now that we've seen his face close-up.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Because there's absolutely nothing else which would give anyone the impression that he has draconic lineage in his past. The only other thing that was fueling that bit of speculation was what some people thought was a dragon tattoo, and it has turned out to be nothing more than a scar or series of scars now that we've seen his face close-up.

Zevox

On the contrary - if he's a Charisma-based caster, then he logically either has draconic or fiendish lineage.

I have nothing that definitively names him such, save his high charisma and the fact that he's a caster. But I wasn't basing it on "Draketooth."

[Zevox]

On the contrary - if he's a Charisma-based caster, then he logically either has draconic or fiendish lineage.

I have nothing that definitively names him such, save his high charisma and the fact that he's a caster. But I wasn't basing it on "Draketooth."
...except we lack any evidence that he has high charisma.

And really, are you going to claim that Xykon has draconic or fiendish lineage just because he's a Sorcerer? Or Elan, because of his Bardic magic? I just don't see that as at all logical. Yes, draconic lineage is one option D&D gives to explain those powers, but it's not dead-set as the only explanation.

Zevox

[Kish]

...except we lack any evidence that he has high charisma.
Given what we've just seen him do, and bearing in mind that he must have either Intelligence or Charisma of 20+, which would you consider more likely?

[Optimystik]

I don't see any reason the Scribble would have two epic INT-based casters. But time will tell, Zev.

[Zevox]

Given what we've just seen him do, and bearing in mind that he must have either Intelligence or Charisma of 20+, which would you consider more likely?
Intelligence. What he just did he did out of hatred for Soon - such an emotion tends to cloud peoples' judgment.

Given he was referred to as an Illusionist specifically, I fully expect that he's a wizard specialized in illusions, not just some Sorcerer who took a large number of illusion spells.


I don't see any reason the Scribble would have two epic INT-based casters.
I don't see any reason they wouldn't. It's not like there's a rule preventing groups from having more than one character with any given class in them.


But time will tell, Zev.
That it will.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Intelligence. What he just did he did out of hatred for Soon - such an emotion tends to cloud peoples' judgment.

Emotion - a hallmark of sorcerers. But you're right, it doesn't prove anything on its own.


Given he was referred to as an Illusionist specifically, I fully expect that he's a wizard specialized in illusions, not just some Sorcerer who took a large number of illusion spells.

Xykon has been called a Necromancer more than once, so "Illusionist" proves exactly nothing.

It's true that I have no proof, but neither do you, chum.

[JonestheSpy]

Folks, chill. The thread is about IF Girard is alive. Roy thinks it's so, and even if he didn't use any life-extending magic he's still probably in his 90's in a world of Cure Disease and Heal spells, so it's not at all unlikely. He doesn't need to be half-anything for it to be so.

Anyway, the question unaddressed by my little theory's dectractors is if he's alive, how would Girard have reacted to the destruction of three gates (and Azure City)? Does it really seem likely he would have done nothing, especially when doing nothing includes leaving around a message about where to find the real coordinates, if in fact the illusion was a legit decades-old message to Soon or the Sapphire Guard? I suppose that would work if he was senile, but doesn't seem to likely otherwise.

[warrl]

Gotta do this...

Well, you can tell by the way I use my spells
I'm at my gate, gonna guard it well
Explosion's loud, the desert's warm
I'll kick you around
with a sandstorm.
And now you are right, you'd best not stay
And you should head the other way
You don't want to understand
A wild snarl's effect on man

Whether you are evil or whether you're Soon's creature
I'm stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Feel your bones all breakin' and everybody shakin'
And I'm stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive

Well now you look low and you look high
But you just won't find, how hard you try
Got a gate and snarl-thing on my shoes
I'm a guardian and I just can't lose
You know it's alright, I'm okay
I'll live to see another day
I've made the whole thing disappear
Your sorry tale will end right here.

Whether you are evil or whether you're Soon's creature
I'm stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Feel your bones all breakin' and everybody shakin'
And I'm stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive

[Zevox]

Emotion - a hallmark of sorcerers. But you're right, it doesn't prove anything on its own.
Emotion is a common aspect of all sentient beings.


Xykon has been called a Necromancer more than once, so "Illusionist" proves exactly nothing.
When, exactly? I don't recall that.


It's true that I have no proof, but neither do you, chum.
Nor have I ever claimed to - I'm simply giving you my opinion and why I think it.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Emotion is a common aspect of all sentient beings.

Yes, that's what I said.


When, exactly? I don't recall that.

In SoD, page 18, when the good adventurers have him locked up.

Also here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html)


Nor have I ever claimed to - I'm simply giving you my opinion and why I think it.

Zevox

As am I.

[veti]

Gotta do this...

Thread won. Move along now.

[Zevox]

In SoD, page 18, when the good adventurers have him locked up.

Also here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html)
Hm, well, I can think of a few reasons for those, but I'll concede the general point that some characters may refer to Sorcerers by terms normally reserved for specialist wizards. I still doubt that was the case for Girard, though.

Zevox

[Warlord JK]

...except we lack any evidence that he has high charisma.

And really, are you going to claim that Xykon has draconic or fiendish lineage just because he's a Sorcerer? Or Elan, because of his Bardic magic? I just don't see that as at all logical. Yes, draconic lineage is one option D&D gives to explain those powers, but it's not dead-set as the only explanation.

Zevox

Actually, sorcerers have ancestors who were dragonic or fiendish. Its how they have magic born into their blood.

[JonestheSpy]

Actually, sorcerers have ancestors who were dragonic or fiendish. Its how they have magic born into their blood.

Off topic arguments that hijack treads make Baby Thog cry...

[Asta Kask]

Intelligence. What he just did he did out of hatred for Soon - such an emotion tends to cloud peoples' judgment.

Given he was referred to as an Illusionist specifically, I fully expect that he's a wizard specialized in illusions, not just some Sorcerer who took a large number of illusion spells.

Roy referred to him as a sorcerer, and he has access to the knowledge of the Sapphire Guard. Presumably Soon knew what class his teammate was.

Please ignore this post.

[King of Nowhere]

Girard might know that Serini is dead. There's been the speculation that Xykon killed her to get the diary in the first place

So if she's dead, nothing is lost by sending the enemy to her, if it makes the lie more convincing, right?

Also possible that Serini and Girard were lovers and had a really really bad breakup.

I've benn thinking on that line.
If Girard put this illusion at the last moment, then he gave Soon the right coordinates. We have no reason to assume he gave wrong coordinates to Serini.
Therefore if the theory is correct, the coordinates are the same and Xykon is heading to the same place.
If the theory is wrong, Xykon is going somewhere else.
Unless Serini realized Xykon was after her and left a fake diary with fake coordinates to fool him, but it seems excessively complex. No, wait, Xykon already found two gates with that diary, so the diary has to be rigth.

Anyway, if we see Xykon coming to that same spot in the desert, we will know this theory is probably right. Otherwise, we can discard it.

[Optimystik]

Anyway, if we see Xykon coming to that same spot in the desert, we will know this theory is probably right. Otherwise, we can discard it.

Whether the right coordinates are in the diary or not is irrelevant. Xykon WILL be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate. Unless that spot in the desert is ALSO within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate, chances are Xykon won't be heading there at all.

[Zevox]

Roy referred to him as a sorcerer, and he has access to the knowledge of the Sapphire Guard. Presumably Soon knew what class his teammate was.
And when did Roy do this :smallconfused: ? I'm pretty certain Girard's casting class has never been explicitly referenced by anyone, we were just told in the Crayons of Time flashback that he was an "illusionist."

Zevox

[Asta Kask]

And when did Roy do this :smallconfused: ? I'm pretty certain Girard's casting class has never been explicitly referenced by anyone, we were just told in the Crayons of Time flashback that he was an "illusionist."

Zevox

My mistake. I'll amend that immediately.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

You know, I just realized something reading this thread.

If Girard really distrusted Soon .... why did he tell him that he could find the location of the gate in Serini's diary? :smallconfused: If Soon 'went to the bad' as Girard thought (incorrectly) that he would, then he just told the Fallen paladin that the way to find the Gate is to go get Serini's diary. :smalleek:

So if Girard really despises Soon, why tell him a sure-fire way to find the Gate's real location? And if he really trusts him, and the illusion thingy is just a bluff, why not tell Soon the real location of the gate straight out? :smallconfused:

I hope that this is some convoluted, Byzantine scheme on the point of the Giant, and not some kind of colossal plot hole .... :smalleek:

[Kish]

Really, Girard acting like an idiot is not a plot hole. No part of the plot requires him not to be one. Really.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Really, Girard acting like an idiot is not a plot hole. No part of the plot requires him not to be one. Really.

Yes, I guess that's a third explanation. That he's such a jerk that he doesn't realize he just gave away the Gate's location. :smallbiggrin:

Or, it's some kind of proof that the explosion was meant to be lethal, and not 'just part of the bluff' as some people think. After all, it doesn't matter if you tell someone the combination to your wall safe two seconds before you shoot them in the back of the head -- they're not going to be able to make use of it. :smallwink:

So, he might have figured, "I can tell him that Serini knows, because he's going to be blown to paste in a couple seconds anyway."

[Wolf_Plague]

After all, it doesn't matter if you tell someone the combination to your wall safe two seconds before you shoot them in the back of the head -- they're not going to be able to make use of it. :smallwink:

I guess Elan would facepalm himself over this statement so hard, he would render himself unconscious...:smallfrown:

[Carnivorous_Bea]

And yet it's true. :smallbiggrin:

It doesn't matter to Girard if he tells Soon how to find the Gate (through Serini), if Girard figures the explosion will kill Soon.

So, after thinking it over, I've come to the conclusion that the reason Girard put in the info about Serini is that the explosion was intended to be lethal. It's the only logical explanation for telling Soon how to find the Gate even though he didn't trust Soon with the Gate's location initially.

Which would pretty much put paid to the idea that Girard is bluffing, and place him firmly in the camp of "Chaotic Retarded." :smallbiggrin:

[rewinn]

And yet it's true. :smallbiggrin:

It doesn't matter to Girard if he tells Soon how to find the Gate (through Serini), if Girard figures the explosion will kill Soon.

So, after thinking it over, I've come to the conclusion that the reason Girard put in the info about Serini is that the explosion was intended to be lethal. It's the only logical explanation for telling Soon how to find the Gate even though he didn't trust Soon with the Gate's location initially.

Which would pretty much put paid to the idea that Girard is bluffing, and place him firmly in the camp of "Chaotic Retarded." :smallbiggrin:
Wheels within wheels, my friend ...

... Girard is defending his gate with misdirection. He has already completely confoolzeled the Forums with but a single spell, which is pretty Epic considering that we're not even in the same Universe as he.

One reason Girard MIGHT put in that line about Serini would to encourage gateseekers to go looking for some sort of hoaky "Serini's diary" wherein may be the location to the next and much more deadly bomb gate.

(P.S. kudos to The Giant for making a "Hobbit's Diary" an important plot element; nice tribute to JRRT!)

[Optimystik]

Wheels within wheels, my friend ...

... Girard is defending his gate with misdirection. He has already completely confoolzeled the Forums with but a single spell, which is pretty Epic considering that we're not even in the same Universe as he.

I'll agree there - utter idiocy in the strip does tend to "confoozle" me.


One reason Girard MIGHT put in that line about Serini would to encourage gateseekers to go looking for some sort of hoaky "Serini's diary" wherein may be the location to the next and much more deadly bomb gate.

Hold on. If the goal is to blow up the Gateseekers, why not just make THIS bomb stronger? And if he couldn't with this one, then the next bomb probably won't be up to the task either.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

I'll agree there - utter idiocy in the strip does tend to "confoozle" me.



Hold on. If the goal is to blow up the Gateseekers, why not just make THIS bomb stronger? And if he couldn't with this one, then the next bomb probably won't be up to the task either.

I agree. Passing the parcel to Serini, so to speak, is a pretty lousy solution. In fact, in that case, he's making the defense of his Gate heavily dependent on someone else -- Serini, in fact -- since he's telling Soon where to find the information about Girard's Gate as well. And if he can't handle the paladin as an epic-level caster, I doubt that the halfling's got anything that's going to stop Soon, either.

I still say the only logical explanation is that this means he expected the trap to be fatal, so that leaking that vital information didn't matter. Which means that the trap really was meant to kill Soon, and there are no complex wheels within wheels -- Girard is just a jackass and the chaotic equivalent of Miko.

The problem is, I have met people that wooden-headedly stupid in real life, so I find that scenario alarmingly plausible. :smallbiggrin:

[Thalnawr]

I like how everyone assumes that his explosion wouldn't kill Soon, just because he's an epic level paladin. Soon was also old, as evidenced by the fact that he died of old age 19 years after the Order of the Scribble was founded. This means he was old at best after the end of the adventure, when Girard expected this trap to catch Soon, and venerable at the worst. That's -3 or -6 to constitution and dexterity right there, giving Girard a reasonable expectation of Soon failing his reflex save and taking a large chunk of explosion and fall damage to an age depleted hp pool.

The fact that Roy survives can be handwaved away by the assumption that he made his reflex save, and the running gag of a flumph to fall on.

[gamephil]

I still say the only logical explanation is that this means he expected the trap to be fatal, so that leaking that vital information didn't matter. Which means that the trap really was meant to kill Soon, and there are no complex wheels within wheels -- Girard is just a jackass and the chaotic equivalent of Miko.


Not a jackass, but a card-carrying, mustache-twirling, monologueing villain with a death trap. Not saying he is that, time will tell, but that is what your description says.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Not a jackass, but a card-carrying, mustache-twirling, monologueing villain with a death trap. Not saying he is that, time will tell, but that is what your description says.

I like your conclusion a lot better than mine -- it's a lot more interesting. :smallbiggrin: I'd much rather see a villain than a dunce, and you're right.

Heck, who knows .... maybe he'll team up with Xykon when the lich shows up. :smallcool:

[guguma]

Unless Girard isn't quite human, I find it hard to believe he would be alive this long. Certainly the odds are more in favor of Serini, who has the lifespan to pull off such a feat, encounter with Xykon or not.

I would think an epic-level rogue can outstealth a lich, especially one as easily sidetracked as Xykon. The fact that he has her diary doesn't necessarily mean he killed her to get it.

On another note, If Girard IS somehow not-quite-human, I'm willing to bet he's part-dragon... which would then cause the "Girard is related to Haley" and "Haley is part-dragon" theories to dovetail nicely. :smalltongue:

That increases the chances of Girard being killed by :vaarsuvius:, right? Ouch! that would be sooooo bad.

[Asta Kask]

On another note, If Girard IS somehow not-quite-human, I'm willing to bet he's part-dragon... which would then cause the "Girard is related to Haley" and "Haley is part-dragon" theories to dovetail nicely. :smalltongue:

Wouldn't he have wings if he was half-dragon?

[Ancalagon]

Wouldn't he have wings if he was half-dragon?

Not necessarily.

Everything seems to be able to multiply with everything else. And how the outcome looks... is up to the DM in the end (especially if you move one generation away (dragon is not parent, but grandparent), you can have normal looking half-whatevers).

[hamishspence]

According to 3.5 (but not 3.0) rules, he definitely couldn't have wings as standard (only Large half-dragons get them). Though there are feats that grant dragon wings to half-dragons, and dragon-blooded creatures, in Races of the Dragon.

Half-dragons and draconic creatures tend to, in most D&D sources, look noticably different from normal creatures of their type- ranging from just having horns, to looking like it has the head of a true dragon.

Though with ancestry more distant than grandparent, can mean indistinguishable from normal creature.

[Raw_fishFood]

I like your conclusion a lot better than mine -- it's a lot more interesting. :smallbiggrin: I'd much rather see a villain than a dunce, and you're right.

Heck, who knows .... maybe he'll team up with Xykon when the lich shows up. :smallcool:

I'm just curious, why the hell would he team up with Xykon? There is nothing to indicate that's he wasn't dedicated to the defense of the gate. I mean, heck, he didn't even tell it's location to another one of the Scribbles because he didn't trust him not to try and take it for himself (even if it did turn out he was wrong.)

We haven't even seen the real story behind Kraagor's death. The closest we've gotten is a single panel told via a secondary source. Things might look very different once we get the whole story.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

I'm just curious, why the hell would he team up with Xykon? There is nothing to indicate that's he wasn't dedicated to the defense of the gate. I mean, heck, he didn't even tell it's location to another one of the Scribbles because he didn't trust him not to try and take it for himself (even if it did turn out he was wrong.)

We haven't even seen the real story behind Kraagor's death. The closest we've gotten is a single panel told via a secondary source. Things might look very different once we get the whole story.

If he's a moustache-twirling villain, Xykon's plan to take over the world might appeal to him. :smallbiggrin:

And no, I doubt that things will look very different -- Girard is either a murderous clown or a cad, depending on how things turn out. I'm guessing murderous clown, but it would be more interesting if he were actually villainous, because of the plot possibilities.

[Optimystik]

Wouldn't he have wings if he was half-dragon?

"Part" does not necessarily mean "Half."


If he's a moustache-twirling villain, Xykon's plan to take over the world might appeal to him. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think Girard is a random villain a la Nale; rather, he just lets his irrational dislike of paladins severely cloud his judgment.

[Hatman]

well any way you look at it, girard has a goatee. thus he must be some kind of evil

[Optimystik]

well any way you look at it, girard has a goatee. thus he must be some kind of evil

So does Hinjo :smalltongue:

[Hatman]

So does Hinjo :smalltongue:

yes, yes he does....:smallamused:

[Optimystik]

yes, yes he does....:smallamused:

You're not David Argall in disguise or something are you?

[Kish]

David Argall argued for Hinjo being evil?

[Optimystik]

David Argall argued for Hinjo being evil?

Wouldn't put it past-

Nah, I'll leave it at that.

EDIT: Where's he been, anyway?

[Hatman]

who's David Argall? i googled him and got a senator from Pennsylvania

[JonestheSpy]

who's David Argall? i googled him and got a senator from Pennsylvania

Just a guy on the forum who liked to argue extreme positions ad infinitum, leave it at that.

Anyways, I still say all the folks who insist Girard is a cad or idiot or whatever are all ignoring the main point of the thread - if he's still alive, do you really think it likely that he'd have no response to the destruction of three gates and Azure City?

BTW, even if the whole part dragon/killed by Varsuvius thing is correct, that still leaves Girard alive for months after the fall of Azure City with time to put some kind of plan into effect..

[Nimrod's Son]

Where's he been, anyway?
He hasn't even logged in for months now.

I kinda miss him; I found his idiosyncrasies rather quaint.

[SageAllen]

After all, it doesn't matter if you tell someone the combination to your wall safe two seconds before you shoot them in the back of the head -- they're not going to be able to make use of it. :smallwink:

In a world where Speak with Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakwithdead.htm) exists, someone could make use of that information.

[Prophet_of_Io]

We can't really assume anything. For one that Programed Image (I'm assuming that's what it is) was created a few decades ago, probably shortly after Girard told Soon where it was. We also know that Girard's feelings toward Soon lingered on the more extreme side of Hostile. Plus since the Sapphire Guard was never informed of the of the real location of the Gate, they're feud was most likely never put to rest. (Yes I realize the irony of that assumption I just made) A feud that long is hard for people, especially humans, to put behind them. I'd think both of them were too stubborn to admit any fault, or even believe they were at fault. Girard would probably never accept help from Soon or his "Facist Paladin Lackey's", and since Lirian and Dorukan are gone, and Sirini (who I believe is still alive but...) is either dead or maybe even still adventuring and might not even be aware of the situation. Plus they agreed not to get involved with each other, and more than that, Epic Characters can tend to get a little overconfident. Girard seems like to type to believe so heavily in his skills over his old party members that he feels the Lich will never pass his defenses. Still at the later point in my post I too have gone into an assumption, and we'll never know what Girard is really thinking until we meet him (or another illusion of him that will explain everything).

Still you did raise some good points.