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Delandel
2009-12-28, 04:24 PM
I'm looking to build a viable dagger thrower that's viable from level 3 and up, all sources allowed. I tried googling for a build but couldn't find anything. For options, I'm aware of dragonfire inspiration bard and the master thrower / bloodstorm blade PrC. The DM is lenient and willing to work with the players to flesh out cool ideas, but I don't want to take advantage of that, so no cheese or anything that would be blatantly OP.

Anyone have suggestions for a build? Even unconventional ones such as an artificer or spellcaster is fine, so long as the character's schtick remains chucking daggers at people for damage. Any tips for gear would also be appreciated. Ancestral weapon maybe?

Choco
2009-12-28, 04:32 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276

There are dagger instructions in there, the dagger version is actually superior but not as funny.

Just a matter of replacing like 2 feats/class features that I mention way at the bottom of the post.

This will make your DM throw things at you though so wear a helmet.

EDIT: Yeah, no cheese.. well you can cut the cheese from that build to make it weaker however you want. Drop the Samurai/Iaijutsu master levels and replace em with more Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade for less cheese.

Also once your daggers can return get some wounding enchants on a pair.

Keld Denar
2009-12-28, 04:47 PM
Flick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11)

This is my build. It focuses on using Dragonfire Inspiration and a high rate of fire (TWFing + Rapid Shot + Palm Throw + Raging Mongoose) to maximize damage. Effective from low levels to high.

Delandel
2009-12-28, 05:05 PM
Ah, there's that dragonfire inspiration build! I was looking for it, thanks Keld.

I like your build too Choco. I'm not very familiar with OA, I'll have to read up on it since you mention there's some cheese. TOB or Fighter2 seems like a solid base for this type of character, and bloodstorm blade / master thrower are both solid PrCs. Maybe even swordsage?

For power level, I'm looking for something on par with an unoptimized warblade basically. I'm not sure what the rest of the party will be, but they're the same players who are playing in my RHOD campaign, which is currently a cleric6 (going radiant servant), crusader6, and binder6. They're not hardcore optimizers but they know how to play smart. I'd like him to be strong levels 3+ and doubt we'll reach anything higher than 8 but who knows.

So excited for this. First time not in the DM seat in over a year! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I should probably stay away from flaws. My group has never played with them before. The DM would probably allow it if necessary to be viable, but I wouldn't take them if I was already fine.

AslanCross
2009-12-28, 05:54 PM
Pure swordsage can't qualify for Bloodstorm Blade without Martial Study, so Warblade plus Fighter might be a better base. If you want to augment your daggers with Sneak Attack, you can then take Martial Study + Martial Stance to get Assassin's Stance.

ericgrau
2009-12-28, 05:57 PM
The main advantage of a dagger over other throwing weapons is that it can also be used in melee and TWF. It can also switch its damage type which is sometimes useful against DR.

I'd get TWF + rapid shot, win initiative and full round attack sneak attacks every fight. TWF also gives extra attacks at range btw. On round 2 you close in and TWF flank sneak attack after everyone else has already started to melee. Spell storing daggers are also excellent for even more melee damage. Get a nice attack bonus to counter the penalties so you actually hit something. That screams halfling, who get a net +3 at range and +2 at melee. Also try weapon focus and point blank shot, far shot, greater invisibility, greater magic weapon, etc.

FFTGeist
2009-12-29, 05:10 AM
Throw master from Complete Warrior?
Neraph throw from planar handbook?

No further advice to give.

Choco
2009-12-29, 09:15 AM
I like your build too Choco. I'm not very familiar with OA, I'll have to read up on it since you mention there's some cheese. TOB or Fighter2 seems like a solid base for this type of character, and bloodstorm blade / master thrower are both solid PrCs. Maybe even swordsage?

Ah, the cheese comes from Iaijutsu Focus. If you attack a flat-footed opponent with a recently drawn melee weapon you get to roll a skill check and get extra damage based on it. The lvl 5 Iaijutsu Master skill adds your charisma bonus to each extra damage die. So if you got 20 charisma and get an extra 8d6 Iaijutsu damage, you get a free 40 damage on top of the 8d6 and the dagger's damage. With that build it is possible to throw 32 daggers in one round, and that's A LOT of extra damage.

Delandel
2009-12-30, 11:30 PM
Maybe no Iaijutsu levels then. It shouldn't really matter anyway since that comes into play at level 8+, while the campaign is starting at level 3.

I did notice something odd in your build though. Martial Throw from the Bloodstorm Blade only works with Iron Heart maneuvers. You can't use Sapphire Nightmre Blade with it, since it's Diamond Mind.

I have some time so I'm working on the build right now. I was trying to build a Fighter2 / Warblade 3 base with the intention of taking a few levels in Bloodstorm Blade and Master Thrower afterwards, but I noticed that there's very few worthwhile maneuvers to take until you get Bloodstorm's martial throw ability, which is at least level 7. Swordsage looks like it just offers more, and it only delays my entry into Master Thrower (and palm throw awesomeness) by one level.

Right now I'm thinking Human Fighter 2 / Swordsage 4 / Master Thrower X might be a strong progression, and just ignore Bloodstorm Blade.

Unfortunately we have to roll for stats, 4d6, reroll 1's, and then take best of 3. I'd rather point buy to ensure that my DEX stat is as high as possible, but oh well.

Level/Feat Build

1 Fighter1 [Precise Shot] [Point Blank Shot] [Rapid Shot]
2 Fighter2 [Quick Draw]
3 Swordsage1 [Weapon Finesse]
4 Swordsage2
5 Swordsage3
6 Swordsage4 [Two Weapon Fighting]
7 Master Thrower1
8 Master Thrower2
9 Master Thrower3 [Improved Two Weapon Fighting]
10 Master Thrower4

Maneuver/Spell Progression

{table=Header]IL|Level|[Gain]|(Lose)|{Stance}
0|Fighter1||||
1|Fighter2||||
2|Swordsage1|[Distracting Ember] [Counter Charge] [Sudden Leap] [Wind Stride] [Mighty Throw] [Moment of Perfect Mind]||{Island of Blades}|
3|Swordsage2|[Cloak of Deception]||{Child of Shadow}|
4|Swordsage3|[Shadow Jaunt]|||
5|Swordsage4|[Mind over Body] [Zephyr Dance]|(Wind Stride)||
[/table]


That's what I got so far. Right off the bat at level3 he should be pretty good, with those maneuvers being situationally useful now and then, and after that sort of fall behind until Master Thrower at level 7. Also sucks that there's no lvl2 stances. The damage leading up to Palm Throw might be subpar as well, I'll need to do some number crunching. Probably will whip up a rough dragonfire bard build as well for comparison. Those flaws can be replaced by being human and dipping in fighter. Only big concern is gear dependancy, if there is any, because I'll have lvl3 WBL and who knows if I can buy gear at any point.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-31, 02:49 AM
You're going to want to stack on a lot of damage to each weapon throw, though. Otherwise, it is a bunch of negligable damage.

Best bet is either Iajitsu, DragonFire Inspiration, or Sneak Attack.

I had an interesting build I made with Rogue/Swordsage/Master Thrower/Bloodstorm Blade (blew feats to get the prerequsite maneuver for Bloodstorm Blade)

With Weak Spot and Sneaky Shot, you should always be hitting, and Sneaky Shot does not make an opponent flat footed, it directly denies opponent Dex bonus thus it completely bypasses Uncanny Dodge, and makes them vulnerable to Sneak Attack anyways. This, plus Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike wands = pretty decent damage output.

gorfnab
2009-12-31, 03:40 AM
Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Halfling Rogue (RotW) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler
3. Rogue - Craven
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - Hit and Run Tactics (DotU) - Weapon Focus Dagger
8. Master Thrower
9. Whisperknife - Far Shot
10. Whisperknife
11. Whisperknife
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Darkstalker, Improved Precise Shot, or Combat Reflexes
19. Master Thrower
20. Master Thrower

BAB 19, 16 daggers thrown per round, able to throw daggers while in melee, 7d6+20 sneak attack, dex to damage when target is flat footed

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler
3. Rogue - Craven
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - Hit and Run Tactics (DotU) - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8. Fighter - Weapon Focus Dagger
9. Master Thrower - Far Shot
10. Master Thrower
11. Master Thrower
12. Monk - Cobra Strike Monk (UA) - Carmendine Monk
13. Monk - Cobra Strike Monk (UA) - Spell Reflection (CM)
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Rapid Shot
19. Master Thrower
20. Master Thrower

BAB 18, 16 daggers thrown per round, dex to damage when target is flat footed, int mod to ac twice, 5d6+20 sneak attack

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler
3. Rogue - Craven
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - Targeteer (DragMag 310) - Vital Aim
8. Fighter - Targeteer (DragMag 310) - Far Shot
9. Swordsage - Shadow Blade
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower
15. Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Rapid Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

18 BAB, 16 daggers thrown per round, 7d6+20 sneak attack (assassins stance), dex to damage twice, wis mod to ac, and some maneuvers. Pick up Drow Long Knives (SoX) for one of your free ranged exotic weapon profs since they count as daggers for feats/abilities. If your DM allows you to add in Hit and Run Tactics onto the Targeteer fighter variant by all means go for it.

For gear for all of these builds look into a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM), Rogue's Vest (MIC), and some sort of infinite dagger source like Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC, see if your DM will allow to activate as free instead of swift action, even if it means increasing the price), Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC page 194, see if your DM can change Javelin into Dagger), Quiver of Anariel (http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:Rdy1Vbkc740J:ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/%3Fdoc%3Dfr_lonedrowstats+lone+drow+companions+of+ the+hall&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) (towards the bottom of page, again see if your DM will allow you to change arrow into dagger and quiver into bandoleer)

Kosjsjach
2009-12-31, 04:13 AM
Oh boy, I made a build not too long ago devoted to this sort of thing.

Deep Halfling (I don't like using Strongheart since it's setting-specific);
Monk 2 (with the following ACFs: Sleeping Tiger (UA), halfling racial sub. (RW), and Invisible Fist (EE)) for saves and shuriken proficiency, and the ability to turn invisible once every three rounds;
Fighter 1 (with the Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DU)) for Dex-to-damage, and the bonus feat (of course);
Rogue 1 (with the Poison Use (DU) and halfling racial sub. (RW) ACFs) for +2d6 ranged sneak attack, skills, and flavor;
Swordsage (ToB) 1 with Discipline Focus in Shadow Hand for Weapon Focus with daggers, not to mention 1st-and-2nd-level maneuvers;
Fighter +1;
Master Thrower (CW) 5: I felt it was important to get "thrown weapon trick: weak spot" as soon as possible for ranged touch attacks; and finally,
Whisperknife (RW) 1+ for Rapid Shot and more sneak attack.

His feats by level 12 were (in order): Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse(B), Improved Initiative(B), Two-Weapon Fighting, Precise Shot(B), Far Shot, Weapon Focus: shuriken(B), Quick Draw(B), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Snatch Arrows(B), and Rapid Shot(B) with the 12th-level feat slot open. :smallbiggrin:

There was supposed to be an artificer in the party, so "X" Bane shuriken would've been easy to procure (being enhanceable in groups of 50 like ammunition).

*sigh* Would've loved to get to play him, too.

Books used: Unearthed Arcana (UA), Drow of the Underdark (DU), Races of the Wild (RW), Exemplars of Evil (EE), Tome of Battle (ToB), and Complete Warrior (CW).

EDIT: To sum up, at level 12 as a full attack, he could throw 8 shuriken (with the help of "thrown weapon trick: palm throw") against an opponent's touch AC (I can't stress this enough) as +11/+11/+6/+6 before counting Dex bonus.
Admittedly, he lacks somewhat in damage (a full volley would only yield [1]x8 + [8 dex (Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF) +2d6 sneak atk]x4), but with an Artificer infusing Weapon Augmentation or a wizard conjuring black lotus extract with Minor Creation, it suddenly becomes extremely frightening how quickly and efficiently this little guy can dish out hurt. :smallbiggrin:
Also, I think he's good-to-go at any level (though better at some).

Fin.

Keld Denar
2009-12-31, 04:20 AM
Hey Del, you don't qualify for Sudden Leap with that build, as its got a 1 TC maneuver prereq. You'd have to take Wolf Fang Strike or something and then drop it at a later point if you want it.

You are still seriously lacking in bonus damage per hit...

UserClone
2009-12-31, 10:04 AM
How are you qualifying for Iaijutsu damage by throwing a dagger? It's attacking with a melee weapon, not a thrown weapon...:smallconfused:

Choco
2009-12-31, 10:40 AM
How are you qualifying for Iaijutsu damage by throwing a dagger? It's attacking with a melee weapon, not a thrown weapon...:smallconfused:

To qualify all you have to do is draw a melee weapon, which a dagger is classified as in addition to being a thrown weapon. And if that aint enough, a Bloodstorm Blade's thrown attacks can be counted as melee attacks :smalltongue:


Maybe no Iaijutsu levels then. It shouldn't really matter anyway since that comes into play at level 8+, while the campaign is starting at level 3.

I did notice something odd in your build though. Martial Throw from the Bloodstorm Blade only works with Iron Heart maneuvers. You can't use Sapphire Nightmre Blade with it, since it's Diamond Mind.

Iaijutsu itself applies from the 1st Samurai level, as you should be maxing the skill, you just dont get all the sweet bonus damage to each Iaijutsu die till later.

As for the Martial Throw, you can use Sapphire Nightmare Blade with Thunderous Throw (the one that lets your thrown attacks count as melee attacks for a swift action). Of course you can't use any swift action maneuvers due to already using your swift action on Thunderous Throw, but luckily Sapphire Nightmare Blade is as part of a standard action (AKA your attack, which now counts as melee) :smallbiggrin:

UserClone
2009-12-31, 11:51 AM
Ah. I'd never read the Bloodstorm Blade. So its thrown attacks can count as melee? Neat! :smallsmile: